Jesus is of course just a copy from multiple other "sons of god" (including Horus) that came before him. I actualy had a little chat with a friend of mine on this very same topic. I showed her multiple links to many sites containing information on people that are just like Jesus, and did the same things as him. Some came before, some during. (Friend is a Christian, I'm Wiccan.) Needless to say, she was rather shocked. It bothered me that she didn't know this, when everyone should be taught it. So what makes Jesus the "true" son of God? Not a damn thing. I'm not into the whole "Cause the Bible says so!" Yea well, the Egyptians believed Horus was the son of God too, does that make it true? Nope.
If these stories had any credible, documented evidence behind them, then it might be reasonable to be teaching it to everyone. I too found numerous sites repeating the same information, but very little cited evidence. Most of the genuine evidence I found has contradicted these claims.
Come on Egg.. Was trying to give the anti-theists here something to "glee" over. After the past couple of days of WALLOPING Neo-Darwinists I decided they needed some love. What a better topic than to compare christianity to ancient egypt
Perhaps I should study mythos and theology more. I am not that affluent in it.
Come on Egg.. Was trying to give the anti-theists here something to "glee" over. After the past couple of days of WALLOPING Neo-Darwinists I decided they needed some love. What a better topic than to compare christianity to ancient egypt Perhaps I should study mythos and theology more. I am not that affluent in it.
Tunabun, you were saying you'd done a lot of research into Horus. Have you found anything, beyond citing Massey, that backs up any of these claims? (Not baiting - I'm genuinely interested).
Tunabun, you were saying you'd done a lot of research into Horus. Have you found anything, beyond citing Massey, that backs up any of these claims? (Not baiting - I'm genuinely interested).
Well since you put out the olive branch I think I would like to explain a bit of my history and how I think at the moment.
I grew up Mormon, as such I know more about theism then your average Christian. As Mormonism closely resembles Judaism and Islamism in scholarly significance. Of course seeing as Mormonism is fairly young it is much easier to attack and find evidence against it. Anyway, my formative years taught me about having knowledge and the use of said knowledge to argue ones point. I was lucky to be exposed to this philosophy but unlucky that the knowledge I had wasn't entirely valid.
So, after learning more and more and learning to question pretty much everything I now try greatly to not only have citations for my own personal reasons and extra citations to back up that evidence.
This particular subject, I had intended to stir up thought, not to debunk any or all religious beliefs or histories. I am not an athiest, trust me I have great respect for religious beliefs and spiritual people. Unlike some people who grow up religious and leave I have no negative feelings, I now have my set of beliefs and respect that some people have and in fact need theirs, as I do mine.
This all being said, I like to know the truth, if at all possible. I really think this would be a fairly cool area to do some study on, not because of the possible debunking of Christ but rather for the historical significance and possible accurate understanding of how the various cultures borrowed from each other.
I think it is important to keep in mind it is believed that many stories of old while very much untrue were either based on an historical truth or are passed down for some significant scholastic reason.
Now that I got that out of the way I will promise to post a bunch of my findings tomorrow, as tonight, I really am too tired to double check my bookmarks before I post them to be scrutinized. ^^
You know, I'm going to say something that may derail the thread and it may make some of you throw your hands up in the air, but I'm gonna say it anyways.
There will never, ever, ever be 100% verifiable proof that Jesus did or did not exist. Or that he was Horus, or anything else for that matter.
If there was, then we wouldn't need faith at all, would we?
Thus the very point of the matter is that we will never be able to say for sure one way or the other, besides what we feel in our hearts.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
2. Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
3. Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.
4. Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent.
6. Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).
7. Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.
8. Horus; birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).
9. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.
10. Both births were announced by angels (this si nto the same as number 7).
11. Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.
12. Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".
13. After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
14. To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
15. When Horus came of age, he had a special ritual where hsi eye was restored. When Jesus (and other Jews) come of age, they have a special ritual called a Bar Mitzvah.
16. Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at this coming-of-age ritual.
17. Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.
18. Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus. Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan.
19. Both were baptized at age 30.
20. Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.
21. Both Anup and John were later beheaded.
22. Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.
23. Both Horus and Jesus successfully resist this temptation.
24. Both have 12 disciples.
25. Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.
26. Horus "stilled the sea by his power." Jesus commanded the sea to be still by saying, "Peace, be still."
27. Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (Note the similarity in names when you say them out loud. Further, Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)
28. Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Bethanu (literally, "house of Anu").
29. Both gods delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
30. Both were crucified.
31. Both were crucified next to two thieves.
32. Both were buried in a tomb.
33. Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).
34. Both had their resurrection announced by women.
35. Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.
36. Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").
37. Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.
38. Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
39. Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.
40. Horus was born in Anu ("the place of bread") and Jesus was born in Bethlehem ("the house of bread").
41. "The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Typhon. The infant Jesus was carried into Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod. Concerning the infant Jesus, the New Testament states the following prophecy: 'Out of Egypt have I called my son.'" (See Point 13)
42. Both were transfigured on the mount.
43. The catacombs of Rome have pictures of the infant Horus being held by his mother, not unlike the modern-day images of "Madonna and Child."
44. Noted English author C. W. King says that both Isis and Mary are called "Immaculate".
45. Horus says: "Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to give you even more power." And Jesus says: "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once."
46. Horus was identified with the Tau (cross).
Now, here's the interesting thing. The story of Horus cannot be proven, yet much older than the Jesus story (about 3000 years earlier to be more concised). However, almost all of these points are actual factual (while some debatable). We have Josephefus, a notable Jewish Historian who was not a Christian, that vouched for the fact that Jesus did lived. There are also records of his time in Israel and there are notable documents proven that the Apostles had visited Rome during the reign of Ceaser and then Nero. I mean, Jesus had to exist since the birth of Christianity was proven to exist arounf 35 AD as noted in the Roman prosecution of the Christian religion and followed by Nero's attempted genocide of the religion through arena games and murder.
So, take the parrarels to what it is worth if you wish, however, note one thing. About 90% of these background stories actually occured in the life of Jesus. Even the Jewish leaders of today can agree to that.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
You know, I'm going to say something that may derail the thread and it may make some of you throw your hands up in the air, but I'm gonna say it anyways. There will never, ever, ever be 100% verifiable proof that Jesus did or did not exist. Or that he was Horus, or anything else for that matter. Actually there is 100% proof that Jesus did exist. His name is mentioned several times in several official Roman documents of Antiquity as well as a few ancient Jewish historical manuscripts. Trust me, there is proof of Jesus' existance. The part in which you need to make a decision is whether or not you believed the man. If there was, then we wouldn't need faith at all, would we?
Thus the very point of the matter is that we will never be able to say for sure one way or the other, besides what we feel in our hearts.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
You know, I'm going to say something that may derail the thread and it may make some of you throw your hands up in the air, but I'm gonna say it anyways. There will never, ever, ever be 100% verifiable proof that Jesus did or did not exist. Or that he was Horus, or anything else for that matter. If there was, then we wouldn't need faith at all, would we?
Thus the very point of the matter is that we will never be able to say for sure one way or the other, besides what we feel in our hearts.
There is indeed proof the man existed, the Romans were meticulous record keepers. There is not proof that he was divine, that is where the faith lies.
Many of the things in the Bible are absolutely grounded in truth. Pontius Pilate existed, Herod existed, Moses very likely existed, Peter existed and was indeed crucified upside down. The apostles all existed. Whether what they believed is true or not is subject to debate, but their existence is not.
All I ever hear is "there IS TOO proof that Jesus existed!". Yet theres never been a time when anyone's shown any backing to this statement. Please enlighten me and point me to this proof. At this point I'm 99.999% certain the man didn't live, and his story is just a rehashing of countless other sun god stories that personify the sun, as it was the main point of worship for just about every early society.
I'm a Christian so when I speak about Jesus I ascribe to him the facets of not only that he was, but who he was and what he did. (I also don't believe the romans are completely infallible either)
There will be evidence that Jesus did exist as Christianity believes, and there will be evidence that Jesus didn't exist (such as the "evidence" that some people use in this thread). Neither will be 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt provalbe, either way. This lets people believe what they want, thus giving us free agency.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
there is only one true religion and even then its not considered a religion, its a relationship. it amazes me how people give in to the deception that satan tries to bring around, he never uses anything new its just a rehash of all the old stuff. this train of thought comes around all the time, its never true its just a ploy to darken the minds of men from the truth. Satan knows that if he can get you to believe in something that doesn't have any real power and authority he can keep you under his feet, but when you know the real truth and authority you can put him under your feet. You should probably get to know Jesus first before you start saying things about him otherwise you're making yourself out to be a fool.
Comments
If these stories had any credible, documented evidence behind them, then it might be reasonable to be teaching it to everyone. I too found numerous sites repeating the same information, but very little cited evidence. Most of the genuine evidence I found has contradicted these claims.
Here's an interesting link to an Ancient Egypt discussion board
Come on Egg.. Was trying to give the anti-theists here something to "glee" over. After the past couple of days of WALLOPING Neo-Darwinists I decided they needed some love. What a better topic than to compare christianity to ancient egypt
Perhaps I should study mythos and theology more. I am not that affluent in it.
Take a guess why no one posted in here?
Obvious baiting.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
Tunabun, you were saying you'd done a lot of research into Horus. Have you found anything, beyond citing Massey, that backs up any of these claims? (Not baiting - I'm genuinely interested).
Well since you put out the olive branch I think I would like to explain a bit of my history and how I think at the moment.
I grew up Mormon, as such I know more about theism then your average Christian. As Mormonism closely resembles Judaism and Islamism in scholarly significance. Of course seeing as Mormonism is fairly young it is much easier to attack and find evidence against it. Anyway, my formative years taught me about having knowledge and the use of said knowledge to argue ones point. I was lucky to be exposed to this philosophy but unlucky that the knowledge I had wasn't entirely valid.
So, after learning more and more and learning to question pretty much everything I now try greatly to not only have citations for my own personal reasons and extra citations to back up that evidence.
This particular subject, I had intended to stir up thought, not to debunk any or all religious beliefs or histories. I am not an athiest, trust me I have great respect for religious beliefs and spiritual people. Unlike some people who grow up religious and leave I have no negative feelings, I now have my set of beliefs and respect that some people have and in fact need theirs, as I do mine.
This all being said, I like to know the truth, if at all possible. I really think this would be a fairly cool area to do some study on, not because of the possible debunking of Christ but rather for the historical significance and possible accurate understanding of how the various cultures borrowed from each other.
I think it is important to keep in mind it is believed that many stories of old while very much untrue were either based on an historical truth or are passed down for some significant scholastic reason.
Now that I got that out of the way I will promise to post a bunch of my findings tomorrow, as tonight, I really am too tired to double check my bookmarks before I post them to be scrutinized. ^^
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
You know, I'm going to say something that may derail the thread and it may make some of you throw your hands up in the air, but I'm gonna say it anyways.
There will never, ever, ever be 100% verifiable proof that Jesus did or did not exist. Or that he was Horus, or anything else for that matter.
If there was, then we wouldn't need faith at all, would we?
Thus the very point of the matter is that we will never be able to say for sure one way or the other, besides what we feel in our hearts.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I can add even more:
1. Both were conceived of a virgin.
2. Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
3. Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.
4. Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent.
6. Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).
7. Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.
8. Horus; birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).
9. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.
10. Both births were announced by angels (this si nto the same as number 7).
11. Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.
12. Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".
13. After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
14. To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
15. When Horus came of age, he had a special ritual where hsi eye was restored. When Jesus (and other Jews) come of age, they have a special ritual called a Bar Mitzvah.
16. Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at this coming-of-age ritual.
17. Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.
18. Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus. Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan.
19. Both were baptized at age 30.
20. Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.
21. Both Anup and John were later beheaded.
22. Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.
23. Both Horus and Jesus successfully resist this temptation.
24. Both have 12 disciples.
25. Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.
26. Horus "stilled the sea by his power." Jesus commanded the sea to be still by saying, "Peace, be still."
27. Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (Note the similarity in names when you say them out loud. Further, Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)
28. Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Bethanu (literally, "house of Anu").
29. Both gods delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
30. Both were crucified.
31. Both were crucified next to two thieves.
32. Both were buried in a tomb.
33. Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).
34. Both had their resurrection announced by women.
35. Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.
36. Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").
37. Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.
38. Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
39. Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.
40. Horus was born in Anu ("the place of bread") and Jesus was born in Bethlehem ("the house of bread").
41. "The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Typhon. The infant Jesus was carried into Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod. Concerning the infant Jesus, the New Testament states the following prophecy: 'Out of Egypt have I called my son.'" (See Point 13)
42. Both were transfigured on the mount.
43. The catacombs of Rome have pictures of the infant Horus being held by his mother, not unlike the modern-day images of "Madonna and Child."
44. Noted English author C. W. King says that both Isis and Mary are called "Immaculate".
45. Horus says: "Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to give you even more power." And Jesus says: "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once."
46. Horus was identified with the Tau (cross).
Now, here's the interesting thing. The story of Horus cannot be proven, yet much older than the Jesus story (about 3000 years earlier to be more concised). However, almost all of these points are actual factual (while some debatable). We have Josephefus, a notable Jewish Historian who was not a Christian, that vouched for the fact that Jesus did lived. There are also records of his time in Israel and there are notable documents proven that the Apostles had visited Rome during the reign of Ceaser and then Nero. I mean, Jesus had to exist since the birth of Christianity was proven to exist arounf 35 AD as noted in the Roman prosecution of the Christian religion and followed by Nero's attempted genocide of the religion through arena games and murder.
So, take the parrarels to what it is worth if you wish, however, note one thing. About 90% of these background stories actually occured in the life of Jesus. Even the Jewish leaders of today can agree to that.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
There is indeed proof the man existed, the Romans were meticulous record keepers. There is not proof that he was divine, that is where the faith lies.
Many of the things in the Bible are absolutely grounded in truth. Pontius Pilate existed, Herod existed, Moses very likely existed, Peter existed and was indeed crucified upside down. The apostles all existed. Whether what they believed is true or not is subject to debate, but their existence is not.
All I ever hear is "there IS TOO proof that Jesus existed!". Yet theres never been a time when anyone's shown any backing to this statement. Please enlighten me and point me to this proof. At this point I'm 99.999% certain the man didn't live, and his story is just a rehashing of countless other sun god stories that personify the sun, as it was the main point of worship for just about every early society.
I'm a Christian so when I speak about Jesus I ascribe to him the facets of not only that he was, but who he was and what he did. (I also don't believe the romans are completely infallible either)
There will be evidence that Jesus did exist as Christianity believes, and there will be evidence that Jesus didn't exist (such as the "evidence" that some people use in this thread). Neither will be 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt provalbe, either way. This lets people believe what they want, thus giving us free agency.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I always thought Jesus was based on Dionysus.....
Check out The Myth of a Historical Jesus for a more in-depth inquiry into the origins of the Jesus Mythos.
there is only one true religion and even then its not considered a religion, its a relationship. it amazes me how people give in to the deception that satan tries to bring around, he never uses anything new its just a rehash of all the old stuff. this train of thought comes around all the time, its never true its just a ploy to darken the minds of men from the truth. Satan knows that if he can get you to believe in something that doesn't have any real power and authority he can keep you under his feet, but when you know the real truth and authority you can put him under your feet. You should probably get to know Jesus first before you start saying things about him otherwise you're making yourself out to be a fool.
KeeperofKeb