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Where's the love for Power Gamers?
p00ka
Member Posts: 167
After SIX of years "of on again, off again" EverQuest, I have finally realized that it will never again be what it once was... I used to enjoy being part of a large, uber guild, back in the day when doing the plane of fear was an all-day affair. Back when epic weapons were useful...
But now, SoE has watered the game down SO much, I just can't bring myself to play anymore. So, after looking around at what's right around the corner, I am beginning to question whether there's anything for me in EQ2, WoW, or UXO... The EQ2 team has stated many times that the focus of EQ2 will be on the single player group, and the raid types should stick to EQ. But after several years, EQ just doesn't do it for some people. So, where are we supposed to go now?
I know that Power Gamers are evil, and hated by just about everyone. But, we consume the high-end content quickly, pushing them to develop and release expansions. Without people at the top, the content becomes dated. So we are a necessary evil (in the big scheme of things.)
Some of my best EQ experiences involved large raids, and I'm not willing to sacrifice that so that "casual" players can have fun too... There has to be a balance somewhere, I just hope someone gets it right.
So, my question to you all is this: For those of you that have been on the top of the food chain, are you satisfied with the next batch of MMORPGs? What are your thoughts on the new "uber free" designs from SoE, Blizzard, EA, and NCSoft? After a few recent disasters in the industry (*cough* Lineage II *cough* Horizons *cough*) do you think WoW, EQ2, UXO, Guild Wars, and the rest will still be fun for us 3 or 4 years down the road? With so much instanced content, how will we stand out from the masses of noobs running around with our gear on? If a "casual" gamer plays 10 hours a week, what's in it for me if I put in 40?
-pooka
Comments
EQ evolved into the upper-content, raid-heavy game it now is. All these games you speak of, they are newer and have not had time to evolve to such a thing. Given time, some of these games will naturally migrate there if they find their playerbase has more "fulltime" (as opposed to "hardcore") players.
Truth of the matter is, the primary source of revenue for any of these games comes from casual players. The fulltime players are the loudest, but they are not the most populous. Any company who is serious about their viability will naturally cater to the casual player, but eventually migrate to the fulltime playerbase.
Your best bet for a current game is EVE Online.
It's a powergamer's paradise. Just make sure you know what you're getting into. Because powergamers are a cannibalistic breed (Meaning that they turn on each other when the need arises. Not that this is a bad thing, it's just something that goes with the territory. Fast advancement comes at a price, and the price is that if you want to stay on top, you have to keep others down.)
What I'm trying to say is that EVE Online is already established and they may not have room for another powergamer and therefore will simply keep you from getting to the top. What I would do if I were you is simply pick a game that is comming out soon and then get in at the ground level. That's the best way to get yourself established and then you can get to the top and stay there while putting roadblocks for your competition. That's the real route to successful powergaming.
I'm not a powergamer myself but I've done much thinking on the subject, heh.
Maybe you should check out Lineage 2. If you're into PvP there is lots of high end content for it being such a new game. A bunch of raids and then huge castle sieges at the high end of the game. The problem with most people, inclusing myself, is that the grind to get to the "end-game" is extremely boring, as there is really nothing to do except grind before level 40 or so, and if you're a dwarf you could craft. PvP is literally non-existent pre-castle sieges, though.
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"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
-- Ken Olson, chairman of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977
Actually... There was plenty of Raid type content in the early days of EQ: Nagafen, Vox, Planes, all of that is pre-Kunark content. A sizable force of level 50 players can take all of the above. I agree that the focus became more and more raid-orriented as time went on, but there were plans for it laid into the very foundation of the game. Then came the expansions: Kunark brought Epic Quests, and Velious has (arguably) the most challenging content in EQ. Everything after that has all sucked IMO - the day VI passed the torch off to SoE was when things started to go down hill. Soon after that day, I (and many others) quit the guide program, and it was the beginning of the end of my love affair with EverQuest.
What I'm saying is... Is this foundation anywhere to be found in this "next generation" of games? I am painfully aware that the Power Gamer is not the focus of their efforts these days. But there has to be someone at the top of the food chain. Do these games have anything to offer those of us who are willing to put the time in?
My gut feeling is that SoE won't totally ignore this "niche" in their (already established) market. There will be a lot of EQ players that will switch on release - and they know it. I'm just not sure that Power Gamers and MMORPG Vets will stick around if the content is lacking.
-pooka
IMO, L2 has some serious flaws. I played both the Japanese and Taiwan betas, then the entire duration of US beta. The content is totally non-existant. They are hoping that the players will fill in 90% of the content in the end-game. And, you're right - the grind is un-bearable. You play the entire game HOPING that pvp will be fun later.
-pooka
p00ka I completely understand your situation. I tried to bring this conversation up in some of my commentaries on some of the new games comeing out. I believe I especially pointed it out in GW, b/c the whole game is set up to really have no end game content that will provide a higherarchy to participating characters. The truth of the matter is like it was said earlier that it really is about money, that is why so many companies are trying to get into mmo's nowadays b/c it is extremely lucrative. They also see that if they make the games more inviting to outside players who havnt really tried an mmo, that is more potential customers, but they have to dumb it down and keep it from becomeing to complex too fast so that they can hook the player. It's more about a learning curve that has to be balanced. Developers and companies feel that it has leaned to much twoards catering to players who will spend long hours a day to play a game and too far away from those who can't or don't want to spend immense amounts of time per day to play. So the scales will be pushed in the other direction.
BUT, like it was implied earlier, eventually they will have to develop more high end content. though I think you were trying to say that there is no higherarchy to todays mmo's(or at least I am!
. Trying to create a even playing feild will be succesful for the most part, but they cant expect those who excel to slow down for everyone else, or force them to for that matter. Essentially they have to cater to one or the other, because it take immense amounts of time just to develop for one side or the other, and I think they see that it will be easier to add in the higher content later so as to keep the majority fixated upon the game itself. I would comment more, but Its really late and I gotta work tommorrow, I'll drop back in to comment more later.
Your scathing wit and daring insight into the turbulent political crags of the internet are shining beacons of truth and purity for the slight remaining masses of visionless hypocriticial sheep who bleat at the thought of your glory
Your scathing wit and daring insight into the turbulent political crags of the internet are shining beacons of truth and purity for the slight remaining masses of visionless hypocriticial sheep who bleat at the thought of your glory
Hmm, where to start my disagreement here...
First however a quick description of 'power gamer' as opposed to 'power leveller'.
Power gamer:-
People who play the game for many more hours a week than most, but still take the time to appreciate all the low level content, in the same way that a casual gamer does, however they progress to the high end game faster than most due to the greater time investment.
Power leveller:-
People who constantly level as best they can to the exclusion of anything else in an attempt solely to reach the high end content and be 'Uber'.
If you are a power gamer i can sympathise with you, but i think that if any of these games are truly going to be any good then they will begin with enough content to keep you playing for at least 6 months, then hopefully they will begin releasing expansions because there will be many players either reaching max cap or already there.
If you are a power leveller then i have no sympathy and suggest you simply stop and smell the roses once in a while and appreciate some of the low level content that the games will inevitably have.
You sound mostly like a power gamer however, in which case i do understand your plight, i was unemployed for 8 months not long ago and through constant playing i reached max cap with 4 characters on one game in a very short space of time, this was not through power levelling, and each time i took in as much content as i knew there was on the way, but still managed to find dissatisfaction by reaching a high level.
I dont actually think any of the games due out are going to be good enough to keep people playing for the length of time EQ or UO did, because they will not have enough to do other than killing.
What a game needs is something interesting and in character to do which is fun but does not constitute levelling, thus providing you something else to do with your time while in the game and delay you reaching high levels until there are some expansions on the market.
I think however than something like EQ2 may be able to keep people like yourself for possibly a year or so, and hopefully by then some better long term games may be due out.
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I think you need a game that at least offer you unlimited developpment, even if after a point it is just a paste and copy with a few more stats in the way.
Well, my *casuals* friends dont usually stick long to a game I didnt stick, so a company pretty much need to be VERY nice with the casuals, but forgetting me is having a partial equation, it wont work either, because those friends want me to be around helping them(from time to time) and this without asking for help...
When I left EQ, there is others players that leave within 6 months(usually within 2) and will not consider coming back unless I am in. Basically, with all my non-raiding ranting, they, as casuals, feel even more shafted and off the game interest at any rate when I cant even find it fun for myself. As casuals they can always HOPE if the stuff is group or solo earned, no matter how far it is, they keep hoping. When it is raid oriented, they just go play Diablo or Starcraft online. When my casuals friends leave, the game better be good or I am leaving not long after, I wanna play with my friends, and of them only 1 is a raider and he is more casual then most of my casuals friends, yet, he fit in.
Not to mention, that when my casual friend do a who all friend, seeing my name there, even if I am doing my stuff far away from them, is comforting, they dont feel completely alone, and they can throw me a Hiya thing or two, even ask a few questions, same is real as well, when I do a who all friend, if I see none ever I grow lonely and go toward others games. Seeing my name in their list when they log in and when they log off dont make them feel like they play *that much* when their sweety half come and inquire about their behavior and make them quit already, that early, as oppose to 2 hours laters very well and precisely pinpointed.
I am a *hardcore* Power Player and I cant stand the must raid thing(gamestyle and gameplay are not appealing, I feel like surrounded by 50 noobs while I raid, cant work well for me, I love been with 5 others players, even if all noobs, I can somehow supervise what is going on and help them, and I can easily pinpoints others hardcorish players as well, in a raid I have no clue and definitely dont feel in control of anything). If a hardcore Power player dont stand the must raid thing, you can be sure many casuals cant at all.
- "Coercing? No no, I assure you, they are willing to bring my bags and pay public transportation just to help me, it is true!''
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
from what i have seen, power levelers are always the first to quit a game. Sure its nice being the highest level.... but in most games they only design content for the majority of the population. therefore they are out leveling the game content. What i mean is: When you get max XP when you are within 5-10 levels from the highest monstors.. dont expect to see too many players after that level as they will be basically wasting their time hunting bad XP. Also from what i experienced personally, it impacts you for questing as well, not only are you out lvl content... but if they game has a party/fellowship aspect in it, you will have a hard time finding a group that is in your level catagory.
I played Asherons Call 2, and right now as a lvl 64, and the main pop. is in the lvl 54-58 area... it is hard to get a group that can hunt/quest with me. although it is getting better every day (as people level)
also seems that the more you grind for the levels... the reward is very short term, as a month down the road developers will release new quests that give out more exp. and the general population will catchup without much effort.
The status of power gamers as a "necessary evil" will change once developers get their act together and create a good character leveling system in a 3d MMORPG (both the necessary and the evil part). The power-gamers game is not simple level based systems like EQ and other MMORPG's on the market today because it's much too easy to eat up the content and max out fast. Developers will never be able to keep up. They have managed to somewhat with EQ only because it is the most popular MMORPG (generating the most income) to date.
A good, skill based system can stretch out the levels and the content by giving players much more training options and paths to take. I can talk about the reasons why but I could go on for pages and I've made my point in other threads. Anyways, I guess my point is you may want to wait for a decent skill-based game. Warhammer Online looks like it has potential.
> ... eventually they will have to develop more high end content
Eventually... This is what bothers me. Not that EQ had it's high-end content fleshed out on release, but the basic idea was there. The content came soon afterwards. I'm afraid that the design of EQ2 in particular will limit the amount that activities say, a large guild can experience. If you have 40 people in your "uber" lvl 50 guild, and everyone wants to go take out a dragon... Which 16 of you will be left behind? Caps, whether used as a mechanism to retard advancement, or as a way of limiting the amount of people that can cooperate towards a common goal, SUCK.
> Trying to create a even playing feild will be succesful for the most part, but they cant expect those who excel to slow down for everyone else, or force them to for that matter
This is a catch 22. They should neither slow down at the upper end, nor speed up the lower end. If the design is solid enough, and the content is there for all levels, "who is what level" becomes irrelevant - the whole game is fun.
> I think you need a game that at least offer you unlimited developpment, even if after a point it is just a paste and copy with a few more stats in the way.
This is one thing SoE eventually got right... The more open-ended the end-game, the better. Once you hit that hard cap, people will quit if there's no other way to advance. But what I would like to see with end-game advancement is more branching - there's no reason why every level 65 character of a given class needs to pick exactly the same AA's - yet they do (because availability of class-defining AA's are scarce.) If there were multiple branches of development, most players would pick a branch that corresponds to their play style - NOT necessarily what every other ______ picked.
> I dont actually think any of the games due out are going to be good enough to keep people playing for the length of time EQ or UO did, because they will not have enough to do other than killing.
This is what I'm afraid of too... But it doesn't have to be this way. They could easily release these titles so that there's enough content for EVERYONE to enjoy for years.
>Sounds like you need to check out Vanguard:Saga of Heroes, Brad McQuaid and a huge chunk of the original EQ team are developing it with the idea of not making another "dumbed down" MMORPG.
I am definitely looking forward to Vanguard. Sigil picked up excellent developers from almost every online game company that matters. Hopefully, Vanguard will fill in a lot of gaps in the industry. The problem is I also want EQ2, WoW, GW, and others to be fun games. I just fear that they will turn into the noob-fest that EQ has become first.
Love for "Power Gamers" is a kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. The best you can hope for is some type of compromise. If you allow unlimited "level" you will always have the causual players feeling left out. If you do not have some type of "End Game" for the power levelers, they get bored and leave.
One of the biggest problem is developing content for the "Power Gamers". After achieving such a high level, what can you through at the "Power Gamers" to keep there interest? More levels, more uber stuff, more kill Mob X? How does a Developer keep up? AO was bold and developed a whole new area, new skills, perks and other items with the Shadowlands expansion. It worked...for a while until "Power Gamers" conquered SL.
Keeping up with "Power Gamers" becomes a race. Your feeding the fire on one end with new Uber Stuff and putting it out on the other end with more levels or content. Works to some extent, but on the other you are helping them consume content faster.
Since I am not a power gamer, its hard for me to suggest a way to keep power levelers happy, while not making the non-power gamers feel left out and frustrated. I hope some comprimise can be reached though.
Whatever. Noobs are in every game. We are all a noob at some point in time. What is the stigma with seeing a "noob?"
Also, IMO powergamers suck. They will never get any love from me. They ruin the game for a lot of other players. Powergaming and griefing go hand-in-hand it seems in a lot of MMOs. I know there are differing opinions, so what? I'm entitled to mine, and this view has been proven to me time and time again, everytime I login to a MMORPG.
MMORPG -- Where's the RP?
MMORPG -- Where's the RP?
Hmm... I like this point, people should realize they also were a noob at some point, maybe not as annoying as others but we all need to start and learn some where, usually from others. I personally ignore pests and ignore the big noobs who act like they know it all and probably do but they aren't smart, just annoying and it isn't so impressive to people who actually have a life, only too many people who play these games don't.
Power gamers/levelers, not much difference between the two, both have too much free time, both can be annoying. Now I don't really care about the two myself only people who cry everytime they are being beaten because they can't keep up. Let me tell you, they payed their money to play, they are not cheating (sometimes). What pisses me off is the ones who talk ishh about it and take it seriously, even worse those who cheat, using 10 people to play their account or getting 2 account so they get a heal/buff bot or tank now thats annoying.
Companies don't care about their customers, its just about money, it's funny to see people don't realize this. I'm still also waiting for a game that hasn't f'ed up or isn't f'ed by the community, yet still at the end of the day it is only up to the company to put a stop to it somehow if they really want to see satisfied customers.
Edit-At the end of the day MMORPG's can't satisfy everyone, but instead of making the same games everytime why not try listening to the most common public points and then make a suitable decision?
Current Characters...
SB-R7MinoBarb
AO-SolitusKeeper
MoS-6xDevArcher
SWG-TKA/Docter
MoS resurecci
Let me be real clear about this: I'm not saying that I want a game without noobs. What I am saying is this whole "casual gamer" bullshit will ruin these games for people like myself.
I am at the top of the food chain in the MMORPGs I have played. I am, quite frankly, a better player than most of the "casual gamers" you will see. I have a deeper understanding of the game mechanics, pathing, and AI, so I tend to level quicker than most people - given the same amount of time. I field questions about precisely which weapon combination will yield the highest DPS, and why. I read message boards, and learn my class inside and out - before I even play it. I can organize a group, and develop a working strategy for the task at hand - and see it to it's conclusion. I have pulled end-game content for people's guilds - at their request.
The simple fact is MMORPGs need people like me. Without exceptional players, the game experience is mediocre for everyone. Call me arrogant, because I am. But rightfully so - I have the experience to back up my claims. If the developers of WoW, EQ2, and every other MMORPG out there don't satisfy me (and my kind,) the long-term health of that game will suffer.
I anxiously await the flaming that will ensue.
-pooka
be careful with what you wish for. Lineage 2, in my opinion, seemed to have been developed for a powergamer and against casual gamers....that game has become the most infamous and gawdaweful hack N slash games of all times (in both SP , MP, and MMORPG).
A good mmorpg is a balanced of material catering to both powergamers andcasual alike.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Huh? Where did I say it should be all power gamers. This is EXACTLY what I want - a balance between the two. Not this casual gamer > power gamer crap. The range of player skill is the glue that binds the game together. You cannot have a successful game that favors one over the other. Lineage II is a perfect example of this - I'm only afraid that if you invert Lineage II, you get EQ2 - all casual/carebear without anything interesting at the top.
-pooka
ok..the last statement you made sounded like you were sick of the casual gamer bullsh** I merely quoted your statement and responded to what you said (or what I had interpreted what u said).
However, I do agree with you.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
UO made lvling so easy that a lot of the ppl left the game as everything that they had worked for was a waste now. lvling shouldnt be a grind but it shouldnt be handed out either, let us work for our lvls and we feel more like a part of the game. giving a point in skill just because so much time has past was stupid. i saw ppl hit a tree then wait the alotted time in uo once GGS was implemented then hit another tree for therte points. one guy was digging some ore in minoc, hitting a tree, fishing, then making a item at the anvil they placed outside the mine, and just repeating that to get all 4 skills up under the GGS system.
what ever happen to having to loot, buy or what ever 100 to 200 lvl 5 maps to make grandmaster cartography. heck now its what maybe 20 lvl 5 maps and your a grandmaster. the fun is gone from hitting 99.6 and 30 maps later paging wow man i just hit 99.7 cart. everyone wants to be a top player with out any work. i say no way make them work for it weather they are a powergamer, causal player, weather they got 40 + hours a week in game or 5 hours a week in game. the lower lvls can find other low lvl ppl to group with. the high lvl can find high lvl to group with. or go solo. we use to take a low lvl guild member with us on lvl 5 treasure hunts so he could get the fun and some xp. make the GAMES fun and give us the challenge we are looking for. even causal players get turned off when its kill 2 mobs and lvl. yes make the first 15 to 20 lvls easier but not a give away, and no max lvl.
I think that the general aim twoards the casual gamer is healthy for the genre at this point in todays mmo's ideaolgy development, mainly because of this statement. It is the "catch-22" that everyone has refered to thus far, in that you cant make it to easy/short and you cant make it to hard/neverending. The focus on casual gamers now a days is like I said healthy for the genre right now, b/c they are trying to make lvls less of a grind fest (even though they always will be) and try to create content within the time and exp that it is supposed to take to lvl, so as to distract the player from thinking they are not really accomplishing anything. Some of the new mmo's comeing out now are attempting to do this through quests, which IMO is a good idea. The only problem is getting the player to consume the content as apposed to just trying to lvl there character fast so they can consume the end game content/ be the best. Essentially I think that WoW and EQII are on good tracks to makeing the game fun again and not a bore fest, by simply distracting the player from the obviously incessent and monotanus grind of everything that is worth accomplishing. Finding a balance is much harder than you could even imagine p00ka, so demanding it from dev teams will be a wasted effort. The only way to make balancing easier is to limit content/game mechanics/character development, and then people would complain that there really is nothing to the game. Also makeing 100 of x to make it up to another teir in a crafting set is redundant, and gets annoying to both the casual and power gamers, that is why they really arn't changing it, they are makeing you get 20 of x 30 of y 50 of z, doesn't change anything, but mixes it up none the less. All things that are hard are worth accomplishing, it just all depends upon who complains the loudest as to wether it will become easier or harder, but eventually everything will change, good or bad. mearly my oppinion.
Your scathing wit and daring insight into the turbulent political crags of the internet are shining beacons of truth and purity for the slight remaining masses of visionless hypocriticial sheep who bleat at the thought of your glory
Your scathing wit and daring insight into the turbulent political crags of the internet are shining beacons of truth and purity for the slight remaining masses of visionless hypocriticial sheep who bleat at the thought of your glory
Well my take on your actual question is that most games goming down the pipe this years, at least the big 2 (EQ and WoW) are definitely AIM'd at the "casual" player.
But both promise tons of content. I was have been a "power gamer" (not leveler) for some time as well. It seems your core issue as was mine is not the problem of just raids, but more having enough content and a "slow" enough leveling pace to really keep you wanting to go after content for your level. EQ always seem to force you to get a few levels to get items and such you needed 5-10 levels ago(until LDoN in my opinion), that really hurt the questing for me. I would have to think both WoW and EQ 2 will have more content that provides rewards more fitting your level. THat combined with the fact that they are both aiming to provide tons of content should help quite a bit.
If on the other hand you really want the huge raids on top of an enormous amount of content, they you may be waiting until Vanguard: Saga of Heroes is realesed, which to my knowledge still doesn't have an estimate. Vanguard looks to be the true EQ replacment while still addressing some of EQ's core issues like camping, KSing, etc.
Any it all depends on your nature of "power gaming" to me. If you are a "power leveler" as well, WoW probably is not for you with its rest system which is designed to nudge palyers into trying other parts of the game...not just leveling.
There are other games out there, but I have tried most of them and compared to EQ they just don't cut it for me. I am excited about WoW and EQ 2 though and will give them both a fair shake, though I am definitely keeping a keen eye on Vanguard.
Beta'd: Neocron, Planetside, ShadowBane, Horizons, City of Heros, Saga of Ryzom, Lineage II
Played: EQ, Shadowbane, DAoC, SWG, Anarchy Online, Asherson's Call 2. Earth and Beyond
Playing: City of Heros, EQ
Beta'd: Neocron, Planetside, ShadowBane, Horizons, City of Heros, Saga of Ryzom, Lineage II, WoW Stress Test
Played: EQ, Shadowbane, DAoC, SWG, Anarchy Online, Asherson's Call 2. Earth and Beyond, City of Heros, EQ
Playing: WAITING FOR WOW and EQ 2
I guess my real issue is I don't want these games to be watered down, to the extent that EQ has been since Luclin and PoP. Sure, EQ has had it's ups and downs. But there has been a downward trend in the "difficulty" of the game for quite some time. The simple fact that "casual" players can spend LDoN points for gear 90% as good as NToV drops is disturbing to me - as a player who had to work for it the hard way. To add insult to injury, SoE changed the rules around so many times in the process of nerfing, then un-nerfing, then re-nerfing, and so on, that I quit my "main" character (a lvl 58 Iksar Monk.) Later, I took my Bard to 65 (+ tons of AA) - but had the exact same experience all over again.
I suppose Vanguard might just be the answer. But I think there are other possible solutions to these problems that the developers have not explored. The problem I have with the "casual gamer" argument is they seem intent on destroying the game for the Power Gamers and MMORPG Vets in the process - and for no good reason. There are enough lvl 50+ people on any given EQ server to prove that "casual" gamers can (eventually) get to the top if they keep playing. If the time commitment is simply too much for that, then perhaps they shouldn't play an MMORPG in the first place.
I suppose I will give credit where it's due: The WoW team seems intent on creating level-appropriate content all the way up. For EQ2, however, only time will tell - there aren't enough first-hand impressions out there to know just yet...
-pooka