Originally posted by Madusik Yes the Bible was written by men but those men were guided by Christ in that writing. If the assistant types the memo for the boss, is not the memo still from the boss?
Just a thought.
It's a good thought. I guess it depends on whether that boss is standing over the assistant and making sure every word is dictated and recorded correctly, or if the boss gives an outline and expects the assistant to reword that into a memo or if the assistant uses their initiative and writes a memo assuming what the boss might want to write, or of course if that assistant abuses their position and writes something in the name of that boss, in order to persue their own personal agenda.
Valid points. I admit I choose to believe that though God didn't stand over them with an iron rod in hand (that I know of anyway) he did guide enough as to ensure the true intend was his own.
If that's the case, and you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then why does the word of God contradict itself so many times?
And how come you put such faith in the men that wrote it? Did you know them personally? It's just funny to me how people put these men on a pedestal as if they are infallible enough to be in touch with God. How do you know they were in touch with God? And just saying, "it's a belief system", isn't holding up so much anymore to the scrutiny that people are beginning to show. I think enough people are seeing the cause and effect relationship between reading the Bible as the word of God and bad things coming from it.
Dude, get over it. You're not making any impression on anyone. Like I said in another post, you sound like some movie character in a post apocalypse flick. It's sad really.
You can carry your sword, but know that you are carrying it representing texts from a book written by men. And you're going to carry that sword onto the street corner looking like someone with a sign reading, "the sky is falling, repent sinners."
We're over all that stuff now. And rightfully so. We've accepted the Bible as bias man written texts. You can call it the word of God all you want, but it's still not.
I believe that the Bible is actually God, not physically of course, but perfect and complete, as God is. If the Bible that has been placed in my hands is corrupted, then God is not in control. And of course i know that He is in control. I believe that the Word, while written by man, was divinely inspired. Man was led to report the Truth, the incoruptible Truth. 1 Peter 1:22-24
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
While man has free will, do you believe that man has the liberty to corrupt the Word? If the Word is corruptible, then chaos reigns and not Jesus. I posted previously that people will just accept "this part" of the Word, and reject "that part" due to it not being convient with their behavior.
Basically, people do not want to see themselves as the subject of this statement from Jesus. John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
So they say my actions are not evil, I don't love darkness. So option 1 is to say .... I love the TRUE translation, unfortuately an error in the Word was made here in your version of the Bible, look here at the book i read that proves it. Or option 2 ... you are interpreting in incorrectly, this is what it really means .... you just have to read it with the understanding that (insert any sin here) is not a sin, then the passage will make so much more sense to you. They would rather attack the Light than bear the conviction that they really love the darkness.
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. John 7:7
Furthermore, as i stated in an earlier post, we are not here to defend Jesus but to serve Him. Looking at the description of God's soldiers from Ephesians 6.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shieldof faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
It is clear that we are to be offensive in the spirital warfare that rages on even in this very thread. The Word is our only offensive gear, am i to believe that Jesus has equipped me with a rusty dagger? I think not. Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not returnuntomevoid, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
As Jesus is our example, he quoted the Word when the tempter came during the 40 days and nights. Because evil can not stand against the sword of the Spirit.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.James 4:7
Think about it, If you believe in spirtual warfare, then what is the enemy afraid of? your shield, your breastplate? No, it's the sword. Why is the ememy focused on attacking the Bible, they want to prevent the attack, they want God's soldiers on the defensive, questioning the ability of that smooth stone and sling in David's hand against the mighty Goliath. They don't want resistance to deceiving the world that (insert any sin here) is OK, not a sin. Remove the weapons from your ememies hands and you will find they resist little, in fact, not at all.
I just can't "get over it" when people attack the bible, the Word of God. I will resists this spirital attack on the Word in the same manner Jesus resisted the devil. I will use the sword of the spirit, the Word of God and say .... get thee behind me Satin. Understandably people who have not read the Bible and seen the Light are not going to understand or accept me saying to them ... get thee behind me Satin. But if they understood, they would know that i speak to the strong holds that Satin has laid as a foundation in their minds.
As i stated, I believe in spirital warfare. As soldiers of God we are to fight not the physical or carnal war, but the spiritual one. Our gear is all defensive except for the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God. I will not sit idle while the influence of the enemy is launched at me from the mouths and words of people that are either knowingly or unknowingly agents of the devil's spiritual attack.
My dad was a warrior in Vietnam for our country. He is not a warrior for Jesus. He told me more than once, that he does not believe in the Word because it was penned by man. But he would die in battle defending my ability to openly read and preach the Word.
That is my approach also. I firmly believe in your free will to not only sin, but to believe what you will concerning what is sin and what is not. I firmly believe you have the free will to even attack the Word. I do not support throwing consenting sinners into jail or worse. If you are not physically harming another your are free to do as your free will desires. I will not physcially harm or restrain you. However, i will rebuke you (just as i rebuke myself when i sin). I will not stand idle while people attempt to indoctrinate beliefs that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. I will be engaged in the spirtual warfare and I will call a demonic message, a demonic message. The truth via the Word is that Satin can not stand against the Word. It is no suprise to me that people in these forums repeatedly ask me to not use scripture and to "give it up dude". But I will not engage in arguements concerning Jesus (spiritual warfare) without my sword. The day i lay it down is the day the battle is over, not prior to the battle.
The most ambitious goal of spirital warfare from the devil's point of view is to remove resistance (the Word of God) so he can have free reign to preach his religion, the religion of pleasure.
Please dont get me wrong. I'm a whore to pleasure. I'm about to log off here and log onto eq and be entertained for a good many hours. But I recognize that i'm being slothful, i recognize that i'm a sinner. I dont demand that sinners or any chaser of pleasure repent and change there ways because I am NOT God. I just want them to acknowledge that it is sin and live in sin like the rest of us. Because we are all sinners.
PS: I yield that it is immpossible to "prove" that their is an absolute truth. But yield this to me, people dont want there to be an absolute truth. They want to be in control, they wanna make the rules, they want to be God. Just as Satin did and does.
PSS: concerning your statement ... "You're not making any impression on anyone." ...... I'll leave you with this slash from my sword that you repeatedly ask me to lay down.
Isaiah 55:10-12
10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
I read your posts a few times but they are really becoming tiresome. I don't say that to you to demean you, but instead to give you some constructive criticism. Your logic makes no sense. I don't even have the patience to go into detail to explain it to you.
If you want to be persuasive, then quit quoting scripture and put forth some meaningful logic and arguments. Otherwise, I'm just going to start skipping over everything you write.
Originally posted by gnomexxx Originally posted by Madusik
Originally posted by EggFtegg
Originally posted by Madusik Yes the Bible was written by men but those men were guided by Christ in that writing. If the assistant types the memo for the boss, is not the memo still from the boss? Just a thought.
It's a good thought. I guess it depends on whether that boss is standing over the assistant and making sure every word is dictated and recorded correctly, or if the boss gives an outline and expects the assistant to reword that into a memo or if the assistant uses their initiative and writes a memo assuming what the boss might want to write, or of course if that assistant abuses their position and writes something in the name of that boss, in order to persue their own personal agenda. Valid points. I admit I choose to believe that though God didn't stand over them with an iron rod in hand (that I know of anyway) he did guide enough as to ensure the true intend was his own. If that's the case, and you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then why does the word of God contradict itself so many times?
And how come you put such faith in the men that wrote it? Did you know them personally? It's just funny to me how people put these men on a pedestal as if they are infallible enough to be in touch with God. How do you know they were in touch with God? And just saying, "it's a belief system", isn't holding up so much anymore to the scrutiny that people are beginning to show. I think enough people are seeing the cause and effect relationship between reading the Bible as the word of God and bad things coming from it.
I do not put the men that wrote the Bible on a pedestal at all. I don't agree with making people saints and then praying to them. Sounds like idol worship to me and nowhere I've seen, does the Bible say we should be conducting this practice. (I could be wrong, I haven't read it cover to cover yet) They were simply the tool. I put my faith the wielder of the tool, the craftsman of the Bible and that is Jesus Christ. I can't quote the scripture like some here, but I do agree with their idea that this 'cause and effect' you speak of is the work of devil. No matter how intelligent man has become or how advanced science now is, there are still many mysteries they can't explain. And maybe that explanation is God.
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." -Confucius
Picking and choosing what we want to believe to fit our agendas is pretty much the mark of the fallible human. The same fallible humans who may well have been picking and choosing what to believe to fit their agendas when they wrote the books and letters which we now call God's word, and the same such fallible humans who when compiling a collection of such books and letters into what we now call the Bible, perhaps picked and chose which texts to add and leave out according to what fit their agendas.
Having faith in a God who loves us as a father, and faith that Jesus was His son, who, somehow in dying, gave us the opportunity of eternal life is one thing. Having faith that the words of humans, in a book compiled by humans and translated by humans, is actually the unquestionable word of God, in my mind, takes a leap of faith which is beyond what I see as reason. I see it as just as unreasonable (and potentially dangerous) as the Catholic church deifying the teachings of whoever is Pope. I wonder how Paul would have reacted to know that letters which he (and his followers) wrote to particular churches at a particular time, would in future centuries be hailed as God speaking directly to us in holy scriptures and held in the highest authority.
I can understand just how advantageous(/useful/convenient) it is for a religion to have a holy text which is revered by everyone and used as a basis of unity and a source of higher authority that everyone can refer to (kind of like how many Americans use the constitution when discussing politics), but I wonder how much that was also understood and provided motives for those who compiled the Bible.
I liked Spong's approach of seeing the Bible telling the history of a people and how through time they learn more and more about the nature of God. I think it is particularly telling in looking at how Jesus challenged much of the traditional thinking of the religious leaders of the time, and even challenged scripture at times, thus suggesting that perhaps the Old Testimant hadn't always painted God in the light that Jesus saw Him in.
A quote I have used in the past on these forums to illustrate the way I see Bible literalists' thinking in terms of the trinity is, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Bible. Spong actually goes a little further to suggest that perhaps this could be a form of idolatry.
What you just wrote is one of the most meaningful things I've ever read on this site from anyone.
Thank You! I wish I could write as well and as clearly as you.
I appreciate you saying so. I would add that despite whatever personal or cultural bias that might come into some of the writing in the Bible, I would still hold it as having immense value and power and have no doubt that we can find deep truths about God within. I would even go so far to say that it does contain the word of God, and I have experienced what I believe is God speaking to me through the text. It may be written by mortal men, but in many passages, it is either inspired by or reporting the divine.
A good example is within the Gospels. Some people level criticism at the Bible, based on slight differences between the Gospel accounts. When taken as a (fallible) report made by humans, I would argue that this actually adds a lot of credence to the stories. If you take any real event and get the accounts of several separate witnesses, it's really pretty common to find differing versions of that same event, whereas if the story was concocted, the witnesses are likely to make sure that their stories match up.
In many ways, it would be easier if we could just take it all at face value, and trust that what we read has come directly from God and directly applies to us as readers, and I can understand those who choose to do so. Not taking it as such does mean we need to be discerning, and approach the texts with an open mind, and any knowledge we can gather of the context and language in which it was written, and of course our God-given powers of reasoning. Often it can take a lot of reading to build up a picture of the nature of God, rather than taking a few indiviual verses, other times through prayer and meditation, our eyes can be opened to meanings.
Now, just for good measure, and as a tribute to Aces, I'll throw in a Biblical quote. This one has nothing really much to do with what I've been talking about, but it was, I believe, one of the most radical and important things which Jesus came to teach us, and for many people it is (as with much of His teaching) still just as radical today.
Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
The translation left the word "abba" in the original Aramaic, supposedly because we didn't have the equivalent word in English. Actually, we do have a word which comes pretty close. Jesus was suggesting that we call the Great I AM, creator of the heavens and the earth, "Daddy" .
Before I begin my point, I urge anyone who is not familiar to read up on both the Septuagint and the various ecumenical councils (begining with the First Council of Nicaea). You can wiki these, just for some background.
The Bible as we know it was coherently laced together until men did so. In the centuries following the crucifixion of Jesus, a plethora of written material was circulated claiming to be gospel. These various councils set about weeding away the forgeries, counterfits, heresies, and just plain lunacy from what was considered the true testament. Anything excluded we call apocrypha.
A great deal of apocrypha is completely out of place and easily removed from the testament. Many of these books and passages were determined written after the appropriate date by scholars dissecting their writting style and concluding their origins at a later date. Many could not be dated thusly, and were excluded based on content. Many were controversial, and to this day regarded as canon by one group and apocrypha by another. I refer you to the Book of Tobit as my favorite of these; the content is wholly unlike most of the Bible, containing many named angels and demons influencing the world. In fact, there are many who today claim that the Book of Revelation has no place in the Bible, due to its prophetic nature and lack of similarity with other books of the Bible. Even as a devout Catholic I had to admit that Revelation was...different. I did not then believe it belonged in the Bible, but kept that bit of heresy to myself.
Now, here is the problem with the Bible. It is in some way scrapped together from an explosion of literary material. There are parts of it that we can verify with much more certainty than others. If you disagree with this hazy begining, then I offer this question: What language was the New Testament originally written in? The reflexive response is Hebrew, but no one is sure. Some argue they were all written originally in a dialect of Greek (Koine Greek if memory serves), while others believe these are merely translations of an original Hebrew source. Whatever the truth, no one is completely sure.
And that's the rub. Assuming the New Testament in its original form was the true Word of God, has that original been faithfully replicated in the Bible sitting in your house? We're not sure the original language, it's been retranslated many many times (with the meaning of the original words left to the translators), with what some people think is the complete volume...or possibly not, and numerous opportunities for someone to edit or forge the material. There are students of the Bible who learn multiple languages just to read the earliest versions they can and try to cut out the middle men.
Again, assuming the original was the true Word of God....is it not possible that man has fudged with it somewhere through 2,000 years of literary edition?
Yes the Bible was written by men but those men were guided by Christ in that writing. If the assistant types the memo for the boss, is not the memo still from the boss?
Just a thought.
It's a good thought. I guess it depends on whether that boss is standing over the assistant and making sure every word is dictated and recorded correctly, or if the boss gives an outline and expects the assistant to reword that into a memo or if the assistant uses their initiative and writes a memo assuming what the boss might want to write, or of course if that assistant abuses their position and writes something in the name of that boss, in order to persue their own personal agenda.
Valid points. I admit I choose to believe that though God didn't stand over them with an iron rod in hand (that I know of anyway) he did guide enough as to ensure the true intend was his own.
If that's the case, and you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then why does the word of God contradict itself so many times?
And how come you put such faith in the men that wrote it? Did you know them personally? It's just funny to me how people put these men on a pedestal as if they are infallible enough to be in touch with God. How do you know they were in touch with God? And just saying, "it's a belief system", isn't holding up so much anymore to the scrutiny that people are beginning to show. I think enough people are seeing the cause and effect relationship between reading the Bible as the word of God and bad things coming from it.
I do not put the men that wrote the Bible on a pedestal at all. I don't agree with making people saints and then praying to them. Sounds like idol worship to me and nowhere I've seen, does the Bible say we should be conducting this practice. (I could be wrong, I haven't read it cover to cover yet) They were simply the tool. I put my faith the wielder of the tool, the craftsman of the Bible and that is Jesus Christ. I can't quote the scripture like some here, but I do agree with their idea that this 'cause and effect' you speak of is the work of devil. No matter how intelligent man has become or how advanced science now is, there are still many mysteries they can't explain. And maybe that explanation is God.
I tend to agree with you about Jesus being an awesome man. But when it comes to the Bible I look at it as something I would read from an ancient historian. And just as if you were to read different historians accounts of an event, you would get different stories and portrayals. It's just human nature, and it's present in the Bible.
Jesus was one frickin' awesome dude. I just wish his story wouldn't have been left up to men to write. I wish he would have wrote it himself. But the way it is, I just can't put blind faith in Paul and the other writers. I was not there when they wrote their texts. I don't even know what kind of people they were. I just have a hard time trusting men and their tales.
Before I begin my point, I urge anyone who is not familiar to read up on both the Septuagint and the various ecumenical councils (begining with the First Council of Nicaea). You can wiki these, just for some background.
The Bible as we know it was coherently laced together until men did so. In the centuries following the crucifixion of Jesus, a plethora of written material was circulated claiming to be gospel. These various councils set about weeding away the forgeries, counterfits, heresies, and just plain lunacy from what was considered the true testament. Anything excluded we call apocrypha.
A great deal of apocrypha is completely out of place and easily removed from the testament. Many of these books and passages were determined written after the appropriate date by scholars dissecting their writting style and concluding their origins at a later date. Many could not be dated thusly, and were excluded based on content. Many were controversial, and to this day regarded as canon by one group and apocrypha by another. I refer you to the Book of Tobit as my favorite of these; the content is wholly unlike most of the Bible, containing many named angels and demons influencing the world. In fact, there are many who today claim that the Book of Revelation has no place in the Bible, due to its prophetic nature and lack of similarity with other books of the Bible. Even as a devout Catholic I had to admit that Revelation was...different. I did not then believe it belonged in the Bible, but kept that bit of heresy to myself.
Now, here is the problem with the Bible. It is in some way scrapped together from an explosion of literary material. There are parts of it that we can verify with much more certainty than others. If you disagree with this hazy begining, then I offer this question: What language was the New Testament originally written in? The reflexive response is Hebrew, but no one is sure. Some argue they were all written originally in a dialect of Greek (Koine Greek if memory serves), while others believe these are merely translations of an original Hebrew source. Whatever the truth, no one is completely sure.
And that's the rub. Assuming the New Testament in its original form was the true Word of God, has that original been faithfully replicated in the Bible sitting in your house? We're not sure the original language, it's been retranslated many many times (with the meaning of the original words left to the translators), with what some people think is the complete volume...or possibly not, and numerous opportunities for someone to edit or forge the material. There are students of the Bible who learn multiple languages just to read the earliest versions they can and try to cut out the middle men.
Again, assuming the original was the true Word of God....is it not possible that man has fudged with it somewhere through 2,000 years of literary edition?
To me, it's just impossible to believe that it's the word of God.
If someone could explain to me how people come to a logical conclusion in thinking that way, then it would go miles in persuading me. That's my biggest problem with all this. There are so many people saying their book is the word of God as well. And they are holding just as steadfast with the text from their books pointing to theirs as truth. It's like the whole world has lost its mind and gone of the logical deep-end out of necessity for an explanation to everything.
Another thing that rubs me wrong is people saying God said believe this is my word or you're going to hell. And his word was a bunch of laws on when and how to execute people?!?!?!?!?!?! Like Bishop Spong said, how could a God of life confess to allowing such hideous means of execution for so many different "crimes"? That's not a God of life and forgiveness.
I am getting close to rambling again, so I'll leave it at that. I just have serious doubts and huge questions on the logic that people are following who say with confidence that the Bible is the word of God. I can understand "influenced by", just like I could understand a band being influenced by another band, but I've heard cover bands, and they don't sound like the originals, no matter how hard they try!
I read your posts a few times but they are really becoming tiresome. I don't say that to you to demean you, but instead to give you some constructive criticism. Your logic makes no sense. I don't even have the patience to go into detail to explain it to you.
If you want to be persuasive, then quit quoting scripture ( i'm gonna start keeping a tally on how often this request is made of me :~P ) and put forth some meaningful logic and arguments. Otherwise, I'm just going to start skipping over everything you write.
part of another one of your posts...
To me, it's just impossible to believe that it's the word of God.
If someone could explain to me how people come to a logical conclusion in thinking that way, then it would go miles in persuading me. That's my biggest problem with all this. There are so many people saying their book is the word of God as well. And they are holding just as steadfast with the text from their books pointing to theirs as truth. It's like the whole world has lost its mind and gone of the logical deep-end out of necessity for an explanation to everything.
Sir I wish I could logically produce an explanation that would satisfy you. But that's not going to happen. Not from me, and not from anyone because if it was possible it would make the Word a lie. I know , I know, your ready to stop reading at this point. But it takes faith to accept the Bible. I know that sounds too simple and perhaps like a "cop-out" to you, but that is what must occur. It takes faith in things that are not seen with your eyes. In fact, I seem to recall that there is a verse that says basically that without faith you can not "get" Jesus. I'll look it up in a minute.
Peace is the best term I can use to describe my saving moment when I finally surrendered all my doubts about Jesus. Relaxed, at ease, relieved and joyful would also be my vain attempts to describe the illogically LARGE degree of peace that flooded through me. I could not ever logically explain my moment of salvation to you. iirc, the Word says something to the effect that .... it is a peace that passes all understanding...... I would suggest that you could also perhaps read that as a peace that passes all logic.
I agree that it is confusing with all the different "versions of God" by all the different "religions". But logically, would you agree that .... if there is a God .... and if there was a spiritual connection that God desired with mankind ... and if there was an adversary that desired to interfer with that God/man connection .... then could you agree that there would be one "correct religion" and all others would be "false religions"?
Now there are some pretty big IFs that precede that question. And only you know where you stand currently on those IFs. But if and when you decide that the IFs are actual. And if and when you decide to pursue that connection with God, you are going to be forced to abandon logic and make a faithful decision. And be aware that what I've been calling spirital warfare is the enemies passionate desire to; primarily have you never make a faithful decision. Secondarily, to have you choice a false religion should you insist on making the "leap of faith".
I wanted to "figure out" God for so long. But instead, I finally simply put my faith in Him and surrenedered. And ironically, and illogically, when i finally surrenedered is when I became free. And i wish i could explain it better, but .... well ... there it is.
Isaiah 55:8,9
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Now let me look for that other verse i mentioned earlier ... brb. Well, i found it finally, but it does not mention faith like i thought, instead it says ... well... i'll just let you read it.
1 Corinthians 12:2,3
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
another verse that I feel applies is this one...
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In closing i want to suggest this... For me, and i believe for many, there is a time, a season if you will that God creates like a farmer might break up the ground before planting seeds. God prepares our hearts for His salvation. For me, I went to Jesus when things were not going as i thought they would. I thought I had it all figured out and that i did not need God. Jesus/Church people were weak in my mind, they used Jesus as a crutch because they could not "handle life". A time will come in your life when Jesus will prepare you and offer you all that He is. And should you choice to reject it, that does not spell damnation for you. However, I truely believe that each time you dont accept His innvotaion it makes it just abit harder to hear Him the next time He comes to you in your moment of need.
I read your posts a few times but they are really becoming tiresome. I don't say that to you to demean you, but instead to give you some constructive criticism. Your logic makes no sense. I don't even have the patience to go into detail to explain it to you.
If you want to be persuasive, then quit quoting scripture ( i'm gonna start keeping a tally on how often this request is made of me :~P ) and put forth some meaningful logic and arguments. Otherwise, I'm just going to start skipping over everything you write. part of another one of your posts... To me, it's just impossible to believe that it's the word of God.
If someone could explain to me how people come to a logical conclusion in thinking that way, then it would go miles in persuading me. That's my biggest problem with all this. There are so many people saying their book is the word of God as well. And they are holding just as steadfast with the text from their books pointing to theirs as truth. It's like the whole world has lost its mind and gone of the logical deep-end out of necessity for an explanation to everything.
Sir I wish I could logically produce an explanation that would satisfy you. But that's not going to happen. Not from me, and not from anyone because if it was possible it would make the Word a lie. I know , I know, your ready to stop reading at this point. But it takes faith to accept the Bible. I know that sounds too simple and perhaps like a "cop-out" to you, but that is what must occur. It takes faith in things that are not seen with your eyes. In fact, I seem to recall that there is a verse that says basically that without faith you can not "get" Jesus. I'll look it up in a minute.
Peace is the best term I can use to describe my saving moment when I finally surrendered all my doubts about Jesus. Relaxed, at ease, relieved and joyful would also be my vain attempts to describe the illogically LARGE degree of peace that flooded through me. I could not ever logically explain my moment of salvation to you. iirc, the Word says something to the effect that .... it is a peace that passes all understanding...... I would suggest that you could also perhaps read that as a peace that passes all logic.
I agree that it is confusing with all the different "versions of God" by all the different "religions". But logically, would you agree that .... if there is a God .... and if there was a spiritual connection that God desired with mankind ... and if there was an adversary that desired to interfer with that God/man connection .... then could you agree that there would be one "correct religion" and all others would be "false religions"?
Now there are some pretty big IFs that precede that question. And only you know where you stand currently on those IFs. But if and when you decide that the IFs are actual. And if and when you decide to pursue that connection with God, you are going to be forced to abandon logic and make a faithful decision. And be aware that what I've been calling spirital warfare is the enemies passionate desire to; primarily have you never make a faithful decision. Secondarily, to have you choice a false religion should you insist on making the "leap of faith".
I wanted to "figure out" God for so long. But instead, I finally simply put my faith in Him and surrenedered. And ironically, and illogically, when i finally surrenedered is when I became free. And i wish i could explain it better, but .... well ... there it is.
Isaiah 55:8,9
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Now let me look for that other verse i mentioned earlier ... brb. Well, i found it finally, but it does not mention faith like i thought, instead it says ... well... i'll just let you read it.
1 Corinthians 12:2,3
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
another verse that I feel applies is this one...
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In closing i want to suggest this... For me, and i believe for many, there is a time, a season if you will that God creates like a farmer might break up the ground before planting seeds. God prepares our hearts for His salvation. For me, I went to Jesus when things were not going as i thought they would. I thought I had it all figured out and that i did not need God. Jesus/Church people were weak in my mind, they used Jesus as a crutch because they could not "handle life". A time will come in your life when Jesus will prepare you and offer you all that He is. And should you choice to reject it, that does not spell damnation for you. However, I truely believe that each time you dont accept His innvotaion it makes it just abit harder to hear Him the next time He comes to you in your moment of need.
You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
The Bible, plain and simple, is a book written by men. How much someone believes in a creator has nothing to do with if they believe the Bible or Koran or Tora, or whatever! I can still believe in a creator by looking at nature around me and how things work. That has been untouched by the bias of man and presents itself raw, pure, and untarnished by bias or opinion. Bias and opinion are the poisons that taint religion.
And again you keep quoting scripture. I don't know how to tell you how little effect that has on me. I don't know the people that wrote that scripture and neither do you. You're putting your blind faith in an institution developed, crafted, modified, and honed by men. That's what the church is. It has been challenged and failed on so many accounts, yet people still turn to it.
I think I know why people blindly turn to the church too. You feel lost without answers. So does everyone. But don't take the easy way out and fall into an establishment of authority. Our only authority is nature and what it presents to us. We are bound by the laws of nature and God has given us the capacity to study and learn from what is around us. But even at that we still make assumptions that mostly turn out wrong.
So, again, how can you trust a book written by men? And how can you trust men to tell you they speak for God? That right there is a brazen enough statement to make me turn away from the Bible quicker than anything. Not turn away from God, but turn away from the self-declared representatives of such. Especially when their greatest truth they hold up is a book fraught with representations of God as dealing out violence, favoritism, infanticide, genocide, and inconsistency in purpose. That's not God. That's a manic depressive out of control bipolar monster. And they should be ashamed of themselves for ever trying to write such a representation to persuade men to behave for them.
I feel freedom. I feel the freedom to go against the Bible and the church. I feel freedom to question them as an authority. I feel the freedom to look back and see misinterpretations of God intentions that came from that book and how they hurt men, women, and children all over the world. I have freedom to accept the fact that a mans writings are not writings of God simply because the man writing them says they are. And I feel the freedom to see God in my own unique way. Not the way that was "right" for some other man. Especially ones that lived thousands of years ago. The world has changed, society has changed, the psyche of man has changed, our understanding of nature has changed, and therefore the rules have changed. It's obvious when you try to apply ancient rules to present life. The peg just won't go into that hole anymore. And I don't have any intention of going backwards in time to make it fit.
You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
The Bible, plain and simple, is a book written by men. How much someone believes in a creator has nothing to do with if they believe the Bible or Koran or Tora, or whatever! I can still believe in a creator by looking at nature around me and how things work. That has been untouched by the bias of man and presents itself raw, pure, and untarnished by bias or opinion. Bias and opinion are the poisons that taint religion.
And again you keep quoting scripture. I don't know how to tell you how little effect that has on me. I don't know the people that wrote that scripture and neither do you. You're putting your blind faith in an institution developed, crafted, modified, and honed by men. That's what the church is. It has been challenged and failed on so many accounts, yet people still turn to it.
I think I know why people blindly turn to the church too. You feel lost without answers. So does everyone. But don't take the easy way out and fall into an establishment of authority. Our only authority is nature and what it presents to us. We are bound by the laws of nature and God has given us the capacity to study and learn from what is around us. But even at that we still make assumptions that mostly turn out wrong.
So, again, how can you trust a book written by men? And how can you trust men to tell you they speak for God? That right there is a brazen enough statement to make me turn away from the Bible quicker than anything. Not turn away from God, but turn away from the self-declared representatives of such. Especially when their greatest truth they hold up is a book fraught with representations of God as dealing out violence, favoritism, infanticide, genocide, and inconsistency in purpose. That's not God. That's a manic depressive out of control bipolar monster. And they should be ashamed of themselves for ever trying to write such a representation to persuade men to behave for them.
I feel freedom. I feel the freedom to go against the Bible and the church. I feel freedom to question them as an authority. I feel the freedom to look back and see misinterpretations of God intentions that came from that book and how they hurt men, women, and children all over the world. I have freedom to accept the fact that a mans writings are not writings of God simply because the man writing them says they are. And I feel the freedom to see God in my own unique way. Not the way that was "right" for some other man. Especially ones that lived thousands of years ago. The world has changed, society has changed, the psyche of man has changed, our understanding of nature has changed, and therefore the rules have changed. It's obvious when you try to apply ancient rules to present life. The peg just won't go into that hole anymore. And I don't have any intention of going backwards in time to make it fit.
You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
I disagree.
How much someone believes in a creator has nothing to do with if they believe the Bible
I disagree
You're putting your blind faith in an institution developed, crafted, modified, and honed by men. That's what the church is.
I disagree.
I think I know why people blindly turn to the church too. You feel lost without answers.
I agree. Jesus is my answer.
So, again, how can you trust a book written by men? And how can you trust men to tell you they speak for God?
Because I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus while reading the Bible. Jesus speaks to me in a multitude of ways, but none so much as through His Word. Because I believe, because I have faith, because I have been reborn in the spirit, because I trust Jesus and he has led me to accept His Word.
Especially when their greatest truth they hold up is a book fraught with representations of God as dealing out violence, favoritism, infanticide, genocide, and inconsistency in purpose. That's not God.
I disagree. I'm sorry you see God's Word like that. Yes the Word tells us that many will not goto heaven, many will burn in hell forever. I completely understand why and how you passionately desire to reject this. But it is what it is, I've questioned this as well. I do not have joy concerning this either. But God is God, and I am not. I must yield to Him, and I do. Call me illogical all you wish. I believe in the Word. That does not address what the men of the Bible did you might say. For example, Samuel.
1 Samuel 15
1Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
How can God kill children you ask? Consider that death to us is not the same to God. For us it is so final. For God, not so much. Now spiritual death is a different story. Now I'm going to stop here, because tbo, i'm not knowledgeable enough to speak to this issue. I have my rationale concerning this but i'm not 1000% certain. As i mentioned in a previous post, I tried to figure out God for a LONG time. But His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. This is where my faith is greater than my lack of understanding. For you, this is prolly where you will say that my faith = being illogical or perhaps insane as you suggested toward me in an earlier post. But it is what it is, it's Faith.
I feel the freedom to look back and see misinterpretations of God intentions that came from that book and how they hurt men, women, and children all over the world.
They did not come from that book. They came from the people reading the book. Because demonic people do demonic things and then claim the good book is their guide is effective spiritual warfare. Your beliefs are a testiment to just how effective imo.
But perhaps i misunderstood and you are referring to such occurances as this is the Word? Deuteronomy 21
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
22And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
If you passionately believe that God is evil to do these things. I have to ask you what is your answer to dealing with evil? I wish I had more time, but a friend just came over.
The world has changed, society has changed, the psyche of man has changed, our understanding of nature has changed, and therefore the rules have changed
You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
The Bible, plain and simple, is a book written by men. How much someone believes in a creator has nothing to do with if they believe the Bible or Koran or Tora, or whatever! I can still believe in a creator by looking at nature around me and how things work. That has been untouched by the bias of man and presents itself raw, pure, and untarnished by bias or opinion. Bias and opinion are the poisons that taint religion.
And again you keep quoting scripture. I don't know how to tell you how little effect that has on me. I don't know the people that wrote that scripture and neither do you. You're putting your blind faith in an institution developed, crafted, modified, and honed by men. That's what the church is. It has been challenged and failed on so many accounts, yet people still turn to it.
I think I know why people blindly turn to the church too. You feel lost without answers. So does everyone. But don't take the easy way out and fall into an establishment of authority. Our only authority is nature and what it presents to us. We are bound by the laws of nature and God has given us the capacity to study and learn from what is around us. But even at that we still make assumptions that mostly turn out wrong.
So, again, how can you trust a book written by men? And how can you trust men to tell you they speak for God? That right there is a brazen enough statement to make me turn away from the Bible quicker than anything. Not turn away from God, but turn away from the self-declared representatives of such. Especially when their greatest truth they hold up is a book fraught with representations of God as dealing out violence, favoritism, infanticide, genocide, and inconsistency in purpose. That's not God. That's a manic depressive out of control bipolar monster. And they should be ashamed of themselves for ever trying to write such a representation to persuade men to behave for them.
I feel freedom. I feel the freedom to go against the Bible and the church. I feel freedom to question them as an authority. I feel the freedom to look back and see misinterpretations of God intentions that came from that book and how they hurt men, women, and children all over the world. I have freedom to accept the fact that a mans writings are not writings of God simply because the man writing them says they are. And I feel the freedom to see God in my own unique way. Not the way that was "right" for some other man. Especially ones that lived thousands of years ago. The world has changed, society has changed, the psyche of man has changed, our understanding of nature has changed, and therefore the rules have changed. It's obvious when you try to apply ancient rules to present life. The peg just won't go into that hole anymore. And I don't have any intention of going backwards in time to make it fit.
You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
I disagree.
How much someone believes in a creator has nothing to do with if they believe the Bible
I disagree
You're putting your blind faith in an institution developed, crafted, modified, and honed by men. That's what the church is.
I disagree.
I think I know why people blindly turn to the church too. You feel lost without answers.
I agree. Jesus is my answer.
So, again, how can you trust a book written by men? And how can you trust men to tell you they speak for God?
Because I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus while reading the Bible. Jesus speaks to me in a multitude of ways, but none so much as through His Word. Because I believe, because I have faith, because I have been reborn in the spirit, because I trust Jesus and he has led me to accept His Word.
Especially when their greatest truth they hold up is a book fraught with representations of God as dealing out violence, favoritism, infanticide, genocide, and inconsistency in purpose. That's not God.
I disagree. I'm sorry you see God's Word like that. Yes the Word tells us that many will not goto heaven, many will burn in hell forever. I completely understand why and how you passionately desire to reject this. But it is what it is, I've questioned this as well. I do not have joy concerning this either. But God is God, and I am not. I must yield to Him, and I do. Call me illogical all you wish. I believe in the Word. That does not address what the men of the Bible did you might say. For example, Samuel.
1 Samuel 15
1Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
How can God kill children you ask? Consider that death to us is not the same to God. For us it is so final. For God, not so much. Now spiritual death is a different story. Now I'm going to stop here, because tbo, i'm not knowledgeable enough to speak to this issue. I have my rationale concerning this but i'm not 1000% certain. As i mentioned in a previous post, I tried to figure out God for a LONG time. But His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. This is where my faith is greater than my lack of understanding. For you, this is prolly where you will say that my faith = being illogical or perhaps insane as you suggested toward me in an earlier post. But it is what it is, it's Faith.
I feel the freedom to look back and see misinterpretations of God intentions that came from that book and how they hurt men, women, and children all over the world.
They did not come from that book. They came from the people reading the book. Because demonic people do demonic things and then claim the good book is their guide is effective spiritual warfare. Your beliefs are a testiment to just how effective imo.
But perhaps i misunderstood and you are referring to such occurances as this is the Word? Deuteronomy 21
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
22And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
If you passionately believe that God is evil to do these things. I have to ask you what is your answer to dealing with evil? I wish I had more time, but a friend just came over.
The world has changed, society has changed, the psyche of man has changed, our understanding of nature has changed, and therefore the rules have changed
You know what? There is a group of people that say pretty much the same things you do and use the same kind of fear tactics to keep people faithful to their authority as you do too. And surprisingly, they say their book saved their souls as well.
There's even this other group besides you two called Jews, and they say the same thing about their book. You know what else is really "surprising"? Both of those groups say your wrong about your book. And then to add more wood to the fire, they both say each other are wrong as well.
What a strong word "wrong" is when it comes to finding peace and comfort and understanding God.
Do you not realize that for someone on the outside looking in, neither of you really represent anything different than each other. The only difference I see (and a welcome one) is that Jews don't proselytize. And actually, to me that goes a long ways.
God is God, and I am not. I must yield to Him, and I do. Call me illogical all you wish. I believe in the Word. That does not address what the men of the Bible did you might say. For example, Samuel. 1 Samuel 15 1Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. How can God kill children you ask? Consider that death to us is not the same to God. For us it is so final. For God, not so much. Now spiritual death is a different story. Now I'm going to stop here, because tbo, i'm not knowledgeable enough to speak to this issue. I have my rationale concerning this but i'm not 1000% certain. As i mentioned in a previous post, I tried to figure out God for a LONG time. But His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. This is where my faith is greater than my lack of understanding. For you, this is prolly where you will say that my faith = being illogical or perhaps insane as you suggested toward me in an earlier post. But it is what it is, it's Faith.
So, should I read from this, that if you felt that God was telling you that the people in the village down the road were sinners, and that you should go there and shoot every man, woman and child, that would be entirely consistant with the God you have faith in?
And maybe if your church leaders, using such scriptures, suggested that you strap explosives to yourself and get on a certain bus....?
You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
He stated that it takes faith to believe in the BIble, not blind faith. There's a sharp difference between the two. The Bible actually discourages blind faith but it's 1:30 am and I'm not going to google it right now...
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
He stated that it takes faith to believe in the BIble, not blind faith. There's a sharp difference between the two. The Bible actually discourages blind faith but it's 1:30 am and I'm not going to google it right now...
But, doesn't it really require blind faith to believe the Bible? You're supposed to believe it's the word of God. Yet, it's authored by men. That takes a leap of blind faith if I've ever heard of one. And, it's a leap of faith that men were being channeled by God?
Or, is there some wiggle room in that statement, "word of God" that I'm not catching?
Comments
Valid points. I admit I choose to believe that though God didn't stand over them with an iron rod in hand (that I know of anyway) he did guide enough as to ensure the true intend was his own.
If that's the case, and you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then why does the word of God contradict itself so many times?And how come you put such faith in the men that wrote it? Did you know them personally? It's just funny to me how people put these men on a pedestal as if they are infallible enough to be in touch with God. How do you know they were in touch with God? And just saying, "it's a belief system", isn't holding up so much anymore to the scrutiny that people are beginning to show. I think enough people are seeing the cause and effect relationship between reading the Bible as the word of God and bad things coming from it.
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You are such a douche.
And you're a punk. If you can't contribute to the discussion in a positive civil way, then get lost. Jerk!===============================
I believe that the Bible is actually God, not physically of course, but perfect and complete, as God is. If the Bible that has been placed in my hands is corrupted, then God is not in control. And of course i know that He is in control. I believe that the Word, while written by man, was divinely inspired. Man was led to report the Truth, the incoruptible Truth. 1 Peter 1:22-24
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
While man has free will, do you believe that man has the liberty to corrupt the Word? If the Word is corruptible, then chaos reigns and not Jesus. I posted previously that people will just accept "this part" of the Word, and reject "that part" due to it not being convient with their behavior.
Basically, people do not want to see themselves as the subject of this statement from Jesus. John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
So they say my actions are not evil, I don't love darkness. So option 1 is to say .... I love the TRUE translation, unfortuately an error in the Word was made here in your version of the Bible, look here at the book i read that proves it. Or option 2 ... you are interpreting in incorrectly, this is what it really means .... you just have to read it with the understanding that (insert any sin here) is not a sin, then the passage will make so much more sense to you. They would rather attack the Light than bear the conviction that they really love the darkness.
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. John 7:7
Furthermore, as i stated in an earlier post, we are not here to defend Jesus but to serve Him. Looking at the description of God's soldiers from Ephesians 6.
11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
20For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
It is clear that we are to be offensive in the spirital warfare that rages on even in this very thread. The Word is our only offensive gear, am i to believe that Jesus has equipped me with a rusty dagger? I think not. Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
As Jesus is our example, he quoted the Word when the tempter came during the 40 days and nights. Because evil can not stand against the sword of the Spirit.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7
Think about it, If you believe in spirtual warfare, then what is the enemy afraid of? your shield, your breastplate? No, it's the sword. Why is the ememy focused on attacking the Bible, they want to prevent the attack, they want God's soldiers on the defensive, questioning the ability of that smooth stone and sling in David's hand against the mighty Goliath. They don't want resistance to deceiving the world that (insert any sin here) is OK, not a sin. Remove the weapons from your ememies hands and you will find they resist little, in fact, not at all.
I just can't "get over it" when people attack the bible, the Word of God. I will resists this spirital attack on the Word in the same manner Jesus resisted the devil. I will use the sword of the spirit, the Word of God and say .... get thee behind me Satin. Understandably people who have not read the Bible and seen the Light are not going to understand or accept me saying to them ... get thee behind me Satin. But if they understood, they would know that i speak to the strong holds that Satin has laid as a foundation in their minds.
As i stated, I believe in spirital warfare. As soldiers of God we are to fight not the physical or carnal war, but the spiritual one. Our gear is all defensive except for the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God. I will not sit idle while the influence of the enemy is launched at me from the mouths and words of people that are either knowingly or unknowingly agents of the devil's spiritual attack.
My dad was a warrior in Vietnam for our country. He is not a warrior for Jesus. He told me more than once, that he does not believe in the Word because it was penned by man. But he would die in battle defending my ability to openly read and preach the Word.
That is my approach also. I firmly believe in your free will to not only sin, but to believe what you will concerning what is sin and what is not. I firmly believe you have the free will to even attack the Word. I do not support throwing consenting sinners into jail or worse. If you are not physically harming another your are free to do as your free will desires. I will not physcially harm or restrain you. However, i will rebuke you (just as i rebuke myself when i sin). I will not stand idle while people attempt to indoctrinate beliefs that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. I will be engaged in the spirtual warfare and I will call a demonic message, a demonic message. The truth via the Word is that Satin can not stand against the Word. It is no suprise to me that people in these forums repeatedly ask me to not use scripture and to "give it up dude". But I will not engage in arguements concerning Jesus (spiritual warfare) without my sword. The day i lay it down is the day the battle is over, not prior to the battle.
The most ambitious goal of spirital warfare from the devil's point of view is to remove resistance (the Word of God) so he can have free reign to preach his religion, the religion of pleasure.
Please dont get me wrong. I'm a whore to pleasure. I'm about to log off here and log onto eq and be entertained for a good many hours. But I recognize that i'm being slothful, i recognize that i'm a sinner. I dont demand that sinners or any chaser of pleasure repent and change there ways because I am NOT God. I just want them to acknowledge that it is sin and live in sin like the rest of us. Because we are all sinners.
PS: I yield that it is immpossible to "prove" that their is an absolute truth. But yield this to me, people dont want there to be an absolute truth. They want to be in control, they wanna make the rules, they want to be God. Just as Satin did and does.
PSS: concerning your statement ... "You're not making any impression on anyone." ...... I'll leave you with this slash from my sword that you repeatedly ask me to lay down.
Isaiah 55:10-12
10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
12For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.
I read your posts a few times but they are really becoming tiresome. I don't say that to you to demean you, but instead to give you some constructive criticism. Your logic makes no sense. I don't even have the patience to go into detail to explain it to you.
If you want to be persuasive, then quit quoting scripture and put forth some meaningful logic and arguments. Otherwise, I'm just going to start skipping over everything you write.
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Valid points. I admit I choose to believe that though God didn't stand over them with an iron rod in hand (that I know of anyway) he did guide enough as to ensure the true intend was his own.
If that's the case, and you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then why does the word of God contradict itself so many times?
And how come you put such faith in the men that wrote it? Did you know them personally? It's just funny to me how people put these men on a pedestal as if they are infallible enough to be in touch with God. How do you know they were in touch with God? And just saying, "it's a belief system", isn't holding up so much anymore to the scrutiny that people are beginning to show. I think enough people are seeing the cause and effect relationship between reading the Bible as the word of God and bad things coming from it.
I do not put the men that wrote the Bible on a pedestal at all. I don't agree with making people saints and then praying to them. Sounds like idol worship to me and nowhere I've seen, does the Bible say we should be conducting this practice. (I could be wrong, I haven't read it cover to cover yet) They were simply the tool. I put my faith the wielder of the tool, the craftsman of the Bible and that is Jesus Christ. I can't quote the scripture like some here, but I do agree with their idea that this 'cause and effect' you speak of is the work of devil. No matter how intelligent man has become or how advanced science now is, there are still many mysteries they can't explain. And maybe that explanation is God.
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." -Confucius
My new store for all your computer needs: Tech Chest,LLC at http://www.tech-chest.com
Thank You! I wish I could write as well and as clearly as you.
I appreciate you saying so. I would add that despite whatever personal or cultural bias that might come into some of the writing in the Bible, I would still hold it as having immense value and power and have no doubt that we can find deep truths about God within. I would even go so far to say that it does contain the word of God, and I have experienced what I believe is God speaking to me through the text. It may be written by mortal men, but in many passages, it is either inspired by or reporting the divine.
A good example is within the Gospels. Some people level criticism at the Bible, based on slight differences between the Gospel accounts. When taken as a (fallible) report made by humans, I would argue that this actually adds a lot of credence to the stories. If you take any real event and get the accounts of several separate witnesses, it's really pretty common to find differing versions of that same event, whereas if the story was concocted, the witnesses are likely to make sure that their stories match up.
In many ways, it would be easier if we could just take it all at face value, and trust that what we read has come directly from God and directly applies to us as readers, and I can understand those who choose to do so. Not taking it as such does mean we need to be discerning, and approach the texts with an open mind, and any knowledge we can gather of the context and language in which it was written, and of course our God-given powers of reasoning. Often it can take a lot of reading to build up a picture of the nature of God, rather than taking a few indiviual verses, other times through prayer and meditation, our eyes can be opened to meanings.
Now, just for good measure, and as a tribute to Aces, I'll throw in a Biblical quote. This one has nothing really much to do with what I've been talking about, but it was, I believe, one of the most radical and important things which Jesus came to teach us, and for many people it is (as with much of His teaching) still just as radical today.
The translation left the word "abba" in the original Aramaic, supposedly because we didn't have the equivalent word in English. Actually, we do have a word which comes pretty close. Jesus was suggesting that we call the Great I AM, creator of the heavens and the earth, "Daddy"
.
The Bible as we know it was coherently laced together until men did so. In the centuries following the crucifixion of Jesus, a plethora of written material was circulated claiming to be gospel. These various councils set about weeding away the forgeries, counterfits, heresies, and just plain lunacy from what was considered the true testament. Anything excluded we call apocrypha.
A great deal of apocrypha is completely out of place and easily removed from the testament. Many of these books and passages were determined written after the appropriate date by scholars dissecting their writting style and concluding their origins at a later date. Many could not be dated thusly, and were excluded based on content. Many were controversial, and to this day regarded as canon by one group and apocrypha by another. I refer you to the Book of Tobit as my favorite of these; the content is wholly unlike most of the Bible, containing many named angels and demons influencing the world. In fact, there are many who today claim that the Book of Revelation has no place in the Bible, due to its prophetic nature and lack of similarity with other books of the Bible. Even as a devout Catholic I had to admit that Revelation was...different. I did not then believe it belonged in the Bible, but kept that bit of heresy to myself.
Now, here is the problem with the Bible. It is in some way scrapped together from an explosion of literary material. There are parts of it that we can verify with much more certainty than others. If you disagree with this hazy begining, then I offer this question: What language was the New Testament originally written in? The reflexive response is Hebrew, but no one is sure. Some argue they were all written originally in a dialect of Greek (Koine Greek if memory serves), while others believe these are merely translations of an original Hebrew source. Whatever the truth, no one is completely sure.
And that's the rub. Assuming the New Testament in its original form was the true Word of God, has that original been faithfully replicated in the Bible sitting in your house? We're not sure the original language, it's been retranslated many many times (with the meaning of the original words left to the translators), with what some people think is the complete volume...or possibly not, and numerous opportunities for someone to edit or forge the material. There are students of the Bible who learn multiple languages just to read the earliest versions they can and try to cut out the middle men.
Again, assuming the original was the true Word of God....is it not possible that man has fudged with it somewhere through 2,000 years of literary edition?
Valid points. I admit I choose to believe that though God didn't stand over them with an iron rod in hand (that I know of anyway) he did guide enough as to ensure the true intend was his own.
If that's the case, and you believe that the Bible is the word of God, then why does the word of God contradict itself so many times?
And how come you put such faith in the men that wrote it? Did you know them personally? It's just funny to me how people put these men on a pedestal as if they are infallible enough to be in touch with God. How do you know they were in touch with God? And just saying, "it's a belief system", isn't holding up so much anymore to the scrutiny that people are beginning to show. I think enough people are seeing the cause and effect relationship between reading the Bible as the word of God and bad things coming from it.
I do not put the men that wrote the Bible on a pedestal at all. I don't agree with making people saints and then praying to them. Sounds like idol worship to me and nowhere I've seen, does the Bible say we should be conducting this practice. (I could be wrong, I haven't read it cover to cover yet) They were simply the tool. I put my faith the wielder of the tool, the craftsman of the Bible and that is Jesus Christ. I can't quote the scripture like some here, but I do agree with their idea that this 'cause and effect' you speak of is the work of devil. No matter how intelligent man has become or how advanced science now is, there are still many mysteries they can't explain. And maybe that explanation is God.
I tend to agree with you about Jesus being an awesome man. But when it comes to the Bible I look at it as something I would read from an ancient historian. And just as if you were to read different historians accounts of an event, you would get different stories and portrayals. It's just human nature, and it's present in the Bible.Jesus was one frickin' awesome dude. I just wish his story wouldn't have been left up to men to write. I wish he would have wrote it himself. But the way it is, I just can't put blind faith in Paul and the other writers. I was not there when they wrote their texts. I don't even know what kind of people they were. I just have a hard time trusting men and their tales.
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If someone could explain to me how people come to a logical conclusion in thinking that way, then it would go miles in persuading me. That's my biggest problem with all this. There are so many people saying their book is the word of God as well. And they are holding just as steadfast with the text from their books pointing to theirs as truth. It's like the whole world has lost its mind and gone of the logical deep-end out of necessity for an explanation to everything.
Another thing that rubs me wrong is people saying God said believe this is my word or you're going to hell. And his word was a bunch of laws on when and how to execute people?!?!?!?!?!?! Like Bishop Spong said, how could a God of life confess to allowing such hideous means of execution for so many different "crimes"? That's not a God of life and forgiveness.
I am getting close to rambling again, so I'll leave it at that. I just have serious doubts and huge questions on the logic that people are following who say with confidence that the Bible is the word of God. I can understand "influenced by", just like I could understand a band being influenced by another band, but I've heard cover bands, and they don't sound like the originals, no matter how hard they try!
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Sir I wish I could logically produce an explanation that would satisfy you. But that's not going to happen. Not from me, and not from anyone because if it was possible it would make the Word a lie. I know , I know, your ready to stop reading at this point. But it takes faith to accept the Bible. I know that sounds too simple and perhaps like a "cop-out" to you, but that is what must occur. It takes faith in things that are not seen with your eyes. In fact, I seem to recall that there is a verse that says basically that without faith you can not "get" Jesus. I'll look it up in a minute.
Peace is the best term I can use to describe my saving moment when I finally surrendered all my doubts about Jesus. Relaxed, at ease, relieved and joyful would also be my vain attempts to describe the illogically LARGE degree of peace that flooded through me. I could not ever logically explain my moment of salvation to you. iirc, the Word says something to the effect that .... it is a peace that passes all understanding...... I would suggest that you could also perhaps read that as a peace that passes all logic.
I agree that it is confusing with all the different "versions of God" by all the different "religions". But logically, would you agree that .... if there is a God .... and if there was a spiritual connection that God desired with mankind ... and if there was an adversary that desired to interfer with that God/man connection .... then could you agree that there would be one "correct religion" and all others would be "false religions"?
Now there are some pretty big IFs that precede that question. And only you know where you stand currently on those IFs. But if and when you decide that the IFs are actual. And if and when you decide to pursue that connection with God, you are going to be forced to abandon logic and make a faithful decision. And be aware that what I've been calling spirital warfare is the enemies passionate desire to; primarily have you never make a faithful decision. Secondarily, to have you choice a false religion should you insist on making the "leap of faith".
I wanted to "figure out" God for so long. But instead, I finally simply put my faith in Him and surrenedered. And ironically, and illogically, when i finally surrenedered is when I became free. And i wish i could explain it better, but .... well ... there it is.
Isaiah 55:8,9
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Now let me look for that other verse i mentioned earlier ... brb. Well, i found it finally, but it does not mention faith like i thought, instead it says ... well... i'll just let you read it.
1 Corinthians 12:2,3
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
another verse that I feel applies is this one...
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In closing i want to suggest this... For me, and i believe for many, there is a time, a season if you will that God creates like a farmer might break up the ground before planting seeds. God prepares our hearts for His salvation. For me, I went to Jesus when things were not going as i thought they would. I thought I had it all figured out and that i did not need God. Jesus/Church people were weak in my mind, they used Jesus as a crutch because they could not "handle life". A time will come in your life when Jesus will prepare you and offer you all that He is. And should you choice to reject it, that does not spell damnation for you. However, I truely believe that each time you dont accept His innvotaion it makes it just abit harder to hear Him the next time He comes to you in your moment of need.
Sir I wish I could logically produce an explanation that would satisfy you. But that's not going to happen. Not from me, and not from anyone because if it was possible it would make the Word a lie. I know , I know, your ready to stop reading at this point. But it takes faith to accept the Bible. I know that sounds too simple and perhaps like a "cop-out" to you, but that is what must occur. It takes faith in things that are not seen with your eyes. In fact, I seem to recall that there is a verse that says basically that without faith you can not "get" Jesus. I'll look it up in a minute.
Peace is the best term I can use to describe my saving moment when I finally surrendered all my doubts about Jesus. Relaxed, at ease, relieved and joyful would also be my vain attempts to describe the illogically LARGE degree of peace that flooded through me. I could not ever logically explain my moment of salvation to you. iirc, the Word says something to the effect that .... it is a peace that passes all understanding...... I would suggest that you could also perhaps read that as a peace that passes all logic.
I agree that it is confusing with all the different "versions of God" by all the different "religions". But logically, would you agree that .... if there is a God .... and if there was a spiritual connection that God desired with mankind ... and if there was an adversary that desired to interfer with that God/man connection .... then could you agree that there would be one "correct religion" and all others would be "false religions"?
Now there are some pretty big IFs that precede that question. And only you know where you stand currently on those IFs. But if and when you decide that the IFs are actual. And if and when you decide to pursue that connection with God, you are going to be forced to abandon logic and make a faithful decision. And be aware that what I've been calling spirital warfare is the enemies passionate desire to; primarily have you never make a faithful decision. Secondarily, to have you choice a false religion should you insist on making the "leap of faith".
I wanted to "figure out" God for so long. But instead, I finally simply put my faith in Him and surrenedered. And ironically, and illogically, when i finally surrenedered is when I became free. And i wish i could explain it better, but .... well ... there it is.
Isaiah 55:8,9
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Now let me look for that other verse i mentioned earlier ... brb. Well, i found it finally, but it does not mention faith like i thought, instead it says ... well... i'll just let you read it.
1 Corinthians 12:2,3
2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
another verse that I feel applies is this one...
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In closing i want to suggest this... For me, and i believe for many, there is a time, a season if you will that God creates like a farmer might break up the ground before planting seeds. God prepares our hearts for His salvation. For me, I went to Jesus when things were not going as i thought they would. I thought I had it all figured out and that i did not need God. Jesus/Church people were weak in my mind, they used Jesus as a crutch because they could not "handle life". A time will come in your life when Jesus will prepare you and offer you all that He is. And should you choice to reject it, that does not spell damnation for you. However, I truely believe that each time you dont accept His innvotaion it makes it just abit harder to hear Him the next time He comes to you in your moment of need.
You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
The Bible, plain and simple, is a book written by men. How much someone believes in a creator has nothing to do with if they believe the Bible or Koran or Tora, or whatever! I can still believe in a creator by looking at nature around me and how things work. That has been untouched by the bias of man and presents itself raw, pure, and untarnished by bias or opinion. Bias and opinion are the poisons that taint religion.
And again you keep quoting scripture. I don't know how to tell you how little effect that has on me. I don't know the people that wrote that scripture and neither do you. You're putting your blind faith in an institution developed, crafted, modified, and honed by men. That's what the church is. It has been challenged and failed on so many accounts, yet people still turn to it.
I think I know why people blindly turn to the church too. You feel lost without answers. So does everyone. But don't take the easy way out and fall into an establishment of authority. Our only authority is nature and what it presents to us. We are bound by the laws of nature and God has given us the capacity to study and learn from what is around us. But even at that we still make assumptions that mostly turn out wrong.
So, again, how can you trust a book written by men? And how can you trust men to tell you they speak for God? That right there is a brazen enough statement to make me turn away from the Bible quicker than anything. Not turn away from God, but turn away from the self-declared representatives of such. Especially when their greatest truth they hold up is a book fraught with representations of God as dealing out violence, favoritism, infanticide, genocide, and inconsistency in purpose. That's not God. That's a manic depressive out of control bipolar monster. And they should be ashamed of themselves for ever trying to write such a representation to persuade men to behave for them.
I feel freedom. I feel the freedom to go against the Bible and the church. I feel freedom to question them as an authority. I feel the freedom to look back and see misinterpretations of God intentions that came from that book and how they hurt men, women, and children all over the world. I have freedom to accept the fact that a mans writings are not writings of God simply because the man writing them says they are. And I feel the freedom to see God in my own unique way. Not the way that was "right" for some other man. Especially ones that lived thousands of years ago. The world has changed, society has changed, the psyche of man has changed, our understanding of nature has changed, and therefore the rules have changed. It's obvious when you try to apply ancient rules to present life. The peg just won't go into that hole anymore. And I don't have any intention of going backwards in time to make it fit.
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You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
I disagree.
How much someone believes in a creator has nothing to do with if they believe the Bible
I disagree
You're putting your blind faith in an institution developed, crafted, modified, and honed by men. That's what the church is.
I disagree.
I think I know why people blindly turn to the church too. You feel lost without answers.
I agree. Jesus is my answer.
So, again, how can you trust a book written by men? And how can you trust men to tell you they speak for God?
Because I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus while reading the Bible. Jesus speaks to me in a multitude of ways, but none so much as through His Word. Because I believe, because I have faith, because I have been reborn in the spirit, because I trust Jesus and he has led me to accept His Word.
Especially when their greatest truth they hold up is a book fraught with representations of God as dealing out violence, favoritism, infanticide, genocide, and inconsistency in purpose. That's not God.
I disagree. I'm sorry you see God's Word like that. Yes the Word tells us that many will not goto heaven, many will burn in hell forever. I completely understand why and how you passionately desire to reject this. But it is what it is, I've questioned this as well. I do not have joy concerning this either. But God is God, and I am not. I must yield to Him, and I do. Call me illogical all you wish. I believe in the Word. That does not address what the men of the Bible did you might say. For example, Samuel.
1 Samuel 15
1Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
How can God kill children you ask? Consider that death to us is not the same to God. For us it is so final. For God, not so much. Now spiritual death is a different story. Now I'm going to stop here, because tbo, i'm not knowledgeable enough to speak to this issue. I have my rationale concerning this but i'm not 1000% certain. As i mentioned in a previous post, I tried to figure out God for a LONG time. But His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. This is where my faith is greater than my lack of understanding. For you, this is prolly where you will say that my faith = being illogical or perhaps insane as you suggested toward me in an earlier post. But it is what it is, it's Faith.
I feel the freedom to look back and see misinterpretations of God intentions that came from that book and how they hurt men, women, and children all over the world.
They did not come from that book. They came from the people reading the book. Because demonic people do demonic things and then claim the good book is their guide is effective spiritual warfare. Your beliefs are a testiment to just how effective imo.
But perhaps i misunderstood and you are referring to such occurances as this is the Word? Deuteronomy 21
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
22And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
If you passionately believe that God is evil to do these things. I have to ask you what is your answer to dealing with evil? I wish I had more time, but a friend just came over.
The world has changed, society has changed, the psyche of man has changed, our understanding of nature has changed, and therefore the rules have changed
God has not changed.
You say you accepted the Bible with blind faith and now you're free? But you're not free, the only thing you freed yourself from is logic.
I disagree.
How much someone believes in a creator has nothing to do with if they believe the Bible
I disagree
You're putting your blind faith in an institution developed, crafted, modified, and honed by men. That's what the church is.
I disagree.
I think I know why people blindly turn to the church too. You feel lost without answers.
I agree. Jesus is my answer.
So, again, how can you trust a book written by men? And how can you trust men to tell you they speak for God?
Because I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus while reading the Bible. Jesus speaks to me in a multitude of ways, but none so much as through His Word. Because I believe, because I have faith, because I have been reborn in the spirit, because I trust Jesus and he has led me to accept His Word.
Especially when their greatest truth they hold up is a book fraught with representations of God as dealing out violence, favoritism, infanticide, genocide, and inconsistency in purpose. That's not God.
I disagree. I'm sorry you see God's Word like that. Yes the Word tells us that many will not goto heaven, many will burn in hell forever. I completely understand why and how you passionately desire to reject this. But it is what it is, I've questioned this as well. I do not have joy concerning this either. But God is God, and I am not. I must yield to Him, and I do. Call me illogical all you wish. I believe in the Word. That does not address what the men of the Bible did you might say. For example, Samuel.
1 Samuel 15
1Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
How can God kill children you ask? Consider that death to us is not the same to God. For us it is so final. For God, not so much. Now spiritual death is a different story. Now I'm going to stop here, because tbo, i'm not knowledgeable enough to speak to this issue. I have my rationale concerning this but i'm not 1000% certain. As i mentioned in a previous post, I tried to figure out God for a LONG time. But His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. This is where my faith is greater than my lack of understanding. For you, this is prolly where you will say that my faith = being illogical or perhaps insane as you suggested toward me in an earlier post. But it is what it is, it's Faith.
I feel the freedom to look back and see misinterpretations of God intentions that came from that book and how they hurt men, women, and children all over the world.
They did not come from that book. They came from the people reading the book. Because demonic people do demonic things and then claim the good book is their guide is effective spiritual warfare. Your beliefs are a testiment to just how effective imo.
But perhaps i misunderstood and you are referring to such occurances as this is the Word? Deuteronomy 21
19Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
22And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
If you passionately believe that God is evil to do these things. I have to ask you what is your answer to dealing with evil? I wish I had more time, but a friend just came over.
The world has changed, society has changed, the psyche of man has changed, our understanding of nature has changed, and therefore the rules have changed
You know what? There is a group of people that say pretty much the same things you do and use the same kind of fear tactics to keep people faithful to their authority as you do too. And surprisingly, they say their book saved their souls as well.video.google.com/videoplay
There's even this other group besides you two called Jews, and they say the same thing about their book. You know what else is really "surprising"? Both of those groups say your wrong about your book. And then to add more wood to the fire, they both say each other are wrong as well.
What a strong word "wrong" is when it comes to finding peace and comfort and understanding God.
Do you not realize that for someone on the outside looking in, neither of you really represent anything different than each other. The only difference I see (and a welcome one) is that Jews don't proselytize. And actually, to me that goes a long ways.
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</OBAMA>
So, should I read from this, that if you felt that God was telling you that the people in the village down the road were sinners, and that you should go there and shoot every man, woman and child, that would be entirely consistant with the God you have faith in?
And maybe if your church leaders, using such scriptures, suggested that you strap explosives to yourself and get on a certain bus....?
He stated that it takes faith to believe in the BIble, not blind faith. There's a sharp difference between the two. The Bible actually discourages blind faith but it's 1:30 am and I'm not going to google it right now...
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
He stated that it takes faith to believe in the BIble, not blind faith. There's a sharp difference between the two. The Bible actually discourages blind faith but it's 1:30 am and I'm not going to google it right now...
But, doesn't it really require blind faith to believe the Bible? You're supposed to believe it's the word of God. Yet, it's authored by men. That takes a leap of blind faith if I've ever heard of one. And, it's a leap of faith that men were being channeled by God?Or, is there some wiggle room in that statement, "word of God" that I'm not catching?
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