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True fantasy where has thou gone?
gobla
Member UncommonPosts: 1,412
Just something I was wondering the other day.
Where has the true fantasy game gone?
So many so called fantasy games are nothing more then dark ages+elves+magic+dragons.
A game where you don't have to fight standard wolves but instead glorbs. Don't ask me what glorbs are. All I can say is that they're unlike anything you've ever seen.
A game where you don't have to walk around trees but instead you're surrounded by tentacles sprouting from the ground.
A game where you don't have giant wurms coming up from the ground. No, they come out of the clouds.
A game where for once the grass isn't green. Nope, it's blue! And the sky? Let's make the sky pink!
I know this probarly sounds stupid and retarded. And it probarly is.
But the main point is, why does about every single game has to be 90% like the real world with just some fantasy creatures and magic added? Even the magic and creatures are most of the time based on the real world.
I know there are some exceptions, but most of us ( I hope ) actually get to see grass, trees and animals every single day. Fantasy games are supposed to take you to new worlds. It would be very cool to have an MMO that really took place in another world, not just our own + magic.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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Comments
I agree that fantasy is getting less original.
The fantasy is a genre is about humans using magic or alternative worlds. If it wasn't about that it'd be a different genre. you can make your own story about clouds with tentacles but then it wouldn't be part of the fantasy genre.
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No, the reason you think fantasy is only humans using magic is because that is the only fantasy you know off, and that is what OP is protesting. So, you are not wrong in saying what fantasy is, but your 100% wrong in saying what fantasy isn't.
It all depends on what you see fantasy as. In mmorpgs it seems like they have settled that elves, orcs and such is fantasy. Think about it, what exactly is fantasy? What do you see as fantasy? Something out of the bounds that's gone totally insane? What the most mmorpgs delivers, elves and such? It depends if we seen fantasy as something under control or something out of control.
Elves, Dragons and bearded ol'timers in pointy hats ARE 'true' fantasy.. (Might want to change that word to 'my' or 'a')
The foundation of fantasy is that it has a world that people can relate to.. And just an added extra touch.
Hell Tolkien is considered the daddy of fantasy and he's got wolves and ponies and such.
That's what fantasy is for you. Well that's what everything is that actually works..
If you Really want soething over hte top, I think Tabula Rasa (Which isn't High Fantasy, but still, very, special..) Anarchy Online (Which isn't fantasy either..) or possibl Phylon (which edges on most styles..) just might be for you.
As for elves and pointy hats without wolves... Well you just ain't gonna get that, sorry...
LSD or Shrooms is the way to go if you want to fly with the worms.
And, that style isn't defined as "Fantasy" but rather trip-art (Phylon is in that category to some extent btw..)
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
Elves, orcs and dwarfs are fine.
What I hate is that in most games that's how far they go. It stops at elves, orcs dragons and dwarfs.
It's all 90% dark ages with some mythical creatures and fantasy races thrown in.
What I miss is games that truly have a universe of their own.
And my examples are quite over the top, mainly to cause people to think about it.
And with true fantasy I refer to something that actually is fantasy, imagination. Not another universe that's basically nothing more then dark ages + magic. Tolkien's world was true fantasy. It was original then. Sure, he had humans, horses and wolves but his universe was unique. It was one of the first, if not the first, dark ages + magic universes.
But that's been done to death now. Every single MMO is dark ages + magic. They're no longer fantasy. They're just copies. Same for the eastern kung-fu like setting. It's been done a 100 times over.
In every MMO you have the good guys with their green grass planes, their farms and their beautifull forests. And you have the bad guys with their tombs, corrupted ground and dying trees. What I want is to step away from that.
To give some actual possible examples of what I mean.
How about an MMO based on tribal africa? 1 high quality MMO has ever been made about this, GW NF, so it without doubt is possible as most people thing GW NF is the best of the GW series. Delve into african legends to get some inspiration for creatures. Actually design a world that's your own. Not one that's a copy with your own personal flavour. Most of us have never had an in-depth view of africa before. It would be a truly unique world. A surprising world.
Or one based on south american culture. Lizardmen instead of orcs. Or maybe egyptian culture. Make undead zombies the good guys for once.
Or you could be truly original and create a world that's nothing like our own. Just please show some originality.
I'm sick of knight in shining armor slaying dragons.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Fantasy can lead to anything it is true, however it would be difficult to make it acceptable if it had no link to our world. The primary idea of fantasy is to put a human into a situation and conditions most of which defy the rules of physics which define our real world. When you talk fantasy you are primarily discussing a roleplay world and roleplay depends heavily on association. If you had to create a totally different character in a world totally different than the human world, you would probably enjoy it for a while, but it would be heavy to pretend that it is true for there is no association with real life and eventually you will quickly bore out of it. Automatically you will have the innate urge to imagine what would happen if humans had to discover this world. This happens a lot in case of adults, children have such a wonderful imagination at a young age that they could actually be a worm in a worm world and accept it and live happily in it. Then when they grow up they are hit by reality and responsibilty making them sceptic and thus difficult to accept a world which does not tie to reality. Developers are aware of this and since most products are not targeted just at kids they make sure that the reality link is there. I do not think that fantasy is limited to elfs. In my fantasy experience I have met thousands of different sentient races a lot of which aren't even humanoid! So I guess it is all a matter to where you are looking buddy!
To wannabe or not to wannabe? Hey I know the answer and it is not 42!
i think elves, dragons and magic are enough fantasy for me.
and i agree with LSD solution for pink sky
hooah!
I see where you're going here OP.
As said, skip the fantasy genres and look at the sci-fi, that's where the imagination really goes *BOOM* nowadays.
High Fantasy MMOs are mainly based on the same setting for one reason: It works.
It's easy money. As the majority settles for it..
Oh, wait, there's one fantasy left: The Saga of Ryzom
While I don't actually like the game myself, it's probably just right for you. It's originality in a nutshell.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
Best Game coming out this year in English
In-game Beginning
No, the reason you think fantasy is only humans using magic is because that is the only fantasy you know off, and that is what OP is protesting. So, you are not wrong in saying what fantasy is, but your 100% wrong in saying what fantasy isn't.
Step 1: Put fantasy in wikipedia.Step 2: Go and wallow in your wrongness.
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This is why i enjoyed the classic Megadrive (Genesis for you americans) 16bit game.
D&D warriors of the eternal sun, where during a large orc&goblin attack the castle is teleported to a strange planet, and yup it's up to you commanding 4 warriors/etc to find out what's up. You leave the safety of the Castle and find out info starting at a beastman camp north.
It was a mix of eye of the beholder in dungeons, and isometric in the outside parts, and highly addictive.
Anyhting completely different (like what your saying) will be out of catergory and simply fiction. if it does not follow traits in any genre. Or it could be science ficiton, if it is based on science or scientific thoeries.
Unfortunatly most people prefer to play/write games based in science ficitona nd fantasy genres, not just fiction. which makes them less original because they follow the other stuff in the genre. You think of a storyline which isn't fantasy or science fiction so is original and interesting, i'll be amazed.
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I dont think games are losing Fantasy. I think the problem is games are becoming simple to attract bigger communities (like WoW or LOTRO) and it seems to be what people is looking for, because those games win by a landslide.
I think Fantasy requires flexibility and a broad range of options to avoid pre-cooked mobs and toons. And thats a handicap for that simplicity, so developers go in the easy way and just make things simple. And simple and fantastic simply dont easily fit.
High Fantasy IS the Dark Ages with elves, dwarves and dragons. You cannot redefine terms that have been agreed upon and in place for so long. It is much like the English language. Some people may find it hard to believe but there are no rules for what constitutes the English language. There is no Royal Academy of English as there is for French. English is only by convention but no one individual can act as a committee of the whole. Newspapers, dictionaries and text books are most often the clearing houses for these rules that come about by common usage.
Popular literature is much the same. We define Horror, Mystery, Gothic, Sci-Fi by convention. No one literature dept in no one university or no publishing house gets the last word on what is Horror. And most anyone will agree that Poe, Shelley and Lovecraft (of the English authors) are in the center of Horror but it is less clear on the edge. Large groups of people zero in on the center of an idea or genre and it becomes codified by club, organizations, publishers and the media. I am not saying that blue grass cannot be a part of High Fantasy but it has to be on the edge. Most folks would understand and agree that the Lord of the Rings is pretty much the center of the circle when it comes to High Fantasy. Howard and Moorcock are a bit further out on the circle but still within bounds.
Obviously there is overlap as there are in languages. No one could confuse Star Wars with High Fantasy but Star Wars is certainly Space or Science Fiction Fantasy as opposed to classic Science Fiction . To me what the OP is describing is Low Tech Alternative Reality. Which is a completely different language.
Fantasy is imagination.
According to the dictionary:
Fantasy - the free play of creative imagination
EDIT: As it seems there are several misunderstandings. I'm talking about fantasy. Not high fantasy. Fantasy as in stuff that only exists in the imagination. Cowboy stories, elves, spaceships with lasers, dinosaurs etc. They're all fantasy.
What I am saying in my OP is imagination and thus fantasy. What I am saying is based on worlds like ours. We have grass in our world, we have skies in our world, we have blue in our world, we have wurms in our world, we have pink in our world, we have clouds in our world.
What I hate is how the supernatural gets forced into a single specific category. Almost all MMOs keep to the same races, same creatures, same types of magic. It's like they're all adventures in the same world.
Why do all warriors have to be like knights?
Why do all magicians have to use elemental magic, dark magic or light magic?
Why do all stealth characters have to dual wield daggers and wear leather armor?
Why can't I be a tribal warrior. Protected by magical tattoes. Holding a painted wooden shield and a crude speak?
Why can't I be a scholar using metal inventions and bombs to kill my enemies?
Why can't I be a shadow mage that uses stealth and shadow magic?
Tolkien fantasy was great, is great and will probarly always be great. Eastern fantasy was great, is great and will probarly always be great. But there are sooooo many possible themes for games. And all that is being used is tolkien-like, pirates, eastern and high-tech sci-fi.
What about steampunk? What about tribal african themes? What about south american themes? What about cowboy themes? What about napoleonic themes? What about egyptian themes? What about middle eastern themes? What about prehistoric/stone age themes? What about vampire/werewolf themes? What about spy themes? What about new themes?
There are endless possibilities. But most of what I see is yet another elves & magic, eastern spirituality, high-tech sci-fi or pirates game.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
I think you are not expressing your point in the right way. I guees what you are asking for is different classes and skills. A rogue without stealth and daggers would not be a rogue. A warrior without melee and plate is not a warrior. A mage without magic is not a mage. Please note that the definition itself of such classes requires certain properties. In order to have a variant or something new, you have to create a new class. You can be a warrior protected by magic that makes you a paladin. You can be skilled in using metal inventions and bombs to kill my enemies, that makes you an engineer. In certain games shadow mages can actually meld into shadows thus giving invisibility. Most of what you ask for has been tackled. What you need is a new set of classes doing something different mate and to have that you need new names!
To wannabe or not to wannabe? Hey I know the answer and it is not 42!
I think you're not understanding me :P.
You're the prime example of someone who's set in the current archetypes.
Warrior = Melee warrior with plate and 1handed + shield or 2handed.
Mage = Elemental magic. AoE specialist
Rogue = Dual daggers, poisons and stealth.
That's what every single game is doing. And that's what I'm protesting against.
Why does the warrior in most games have to wear plate armor? Why not protective tattoes once? Why not mayan style bronze?
Why does the mage in most games have to use elemental magic? Why not shadow magic once? Why not make him open portals to other dimensions that deal damage once?
Why does the rogue in most games dual wield daggers? Why not make him a fencer once? Why not a charismatic leader that can charm enemies?
They all fit within their descriptions. A warrior with mayan style bronze is still a defensive melee fighter. A mage that uses shadow magic still uses magic. A rogue that charms his enemies is still the sleek guy not to be trusted.
We don't necasarilly need new class names. We need new themes. New settings. New worlds.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
To the OP: I understand what you're getting at and I agree. A little imagination could turn out something fun and fascinating. I could stand an elf-free magical world, for instance, full of creatures unique to that world. I think The Saga of Ryzom was really good in that respect. It's not like anywhere else.
I'd love to see more originality and less fantasy descended from those awful paperback novels that I read in high school.
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This is where I draw the line: __________________.
I would love to play a game with a totally new theme, new classes, new styles and especially new stories. The problem is that high fantasy is highly successfull. Why try to create a risky game with a new theme when the current one works well? When a game costs 20mio+ $ you will think twice before trying to do something new. Sometimes you will not even get the cash if you try something radically new.
A possibility would be a game that gives the player more power. Has anyone seen the videos for spore? You create your own species, you design your species, buildings, vehicles, bodies, every object with a toolkit. Imagine a game where you get to do this for the skills and the looks of your character. Maybe you could give the players the power to create their own landscapes. Player run dungeons and player run citys with their own design would be possible.
What we have to do is to either encourage developers to move away from high fantasy or to tell them to create sandbox type of games with more designing power for the player. Nothing will change though when 95% of the players are happy with high fantasy and the known character archetypes.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I agree with the OP 100%, but as some have pointed out the devlopers don't want to take a risk money wise on creating something totally new. Perhaps the way to go would be to first write a successful fantasy book I.E. Tolkien or a small 2D world that doesn't require a lot of money or people to make. Then if people like the world perhaps someone would be willing to take a chance on it.
I agree that fantasy is not set in stone. Fantasy is in fact anything you want it to be which is why it's called fantasy. Anything is possible.
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Anything could be part of fantasy (the word), as in your imagination. But to be part of fantasy genre it would have to follow the rules (more like customs) of the genre. What genre is all about, grouping simular things, so if its not simular it not part of the group/genre.
I agree fantasy isn't always that interesting and can lack originallity, but its hard to be original and stay in the genre as alot has been covered already, the same way music today sucks because most of it has already been done.
I'm not gona try and convince people that I am right. The same way I'm not going to try and convince the large amount of people in america who say they got abducted by aliens that they are wrong, or my little brother that santa claus isn't real. You belive what you want believe.
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Anything could be part of fantasy (the word), as in your imagination. But to be part of fantasy genre it would have to follow the rules (more like customs) of the genre. What genre is all about, grouping simular things, so if its not simular it not part of the group/genre.
I agree fantasy isn't always that interesting and can lack originallity, but its hard to be original and stay in the genre as alot has been covered already, the same way music today sucks because most of it has already been done.
I'm not gona try and convince people that I am right. The same way I'm not going to try and convince the large amount of people in america who say they got abducted by aliens that they are wrong, or my little brother that santa claus isn't real. You belive what you want believe.
Well if you are going to restrict it in that manner then I'd say come up with a new genre. How about free fantasy or something of that nature. Free as in you are free to makeup anything you want and not be restricted by guidelines.