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What if you're wrong?

porgieporgie Member Posts: 1,516

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  • IbextoIbexto Member Posts: 277
    Rule #1:  I am always right.



    Rule #2:  I am never wrong.



    Rule #3:  If you think that Rule #2 is applicable, then refer to Rule #1.
  • gnomexxxgnomexxx Member Posts: 2,920
    It's like I've said before, if God wanted us to truly know what he said or what he wants us to do, then wouldn't he have made the message absolutely clear without any chance of ever wondering?  Instead there are countless religions on the planet, all of which say they are right and the others are wrong and none of them can prove they are "the one" beyond a shadow of a doubt for everyone. 



    It's hard to hold someone accountable for something when you make everything so damned arbitrary.  It makes saving your soul a crap shoot at best. 

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  • FinweFinwe Member CommonPosts: 3,106

    Originally posted by gnomexxx

    It's like I've said before, if God wanted us to truly know what he said or what he wants us to do, then wouldn't he have made the message absolutely clear without any chance of ever wondering? 

    That would require a certain sense of robotics.

    Exhibit A: Adam & Eve - DON"T EAT THE DAMNED APPLE!

    Person B of exhibit A eats the fruit, doesn't fall over dead, "Oh, look hubby, that silly supreme being was just joking with us. Or maybe we even mis-interpreted what he was saying. I'm not dead! C'mon! Let's take a bite."

    Person A, exhibit A, takes bite, we're all therefor screwed.

     Instead there are countless religions on the planet, all of which say they are right and the others are wrong and none of them can prove they are "the one" beyond a shadow of a doubt for everyone. 



    It's hard to hold someone accountable for something when you make everything so damned arbitrary.  It makes saving your soul a crap shoot at best. 

    "The greatest trick the devil played on humanity in the 20th century was convincing them that he didn't exist." (Paraphrasing) C.S. Lewis

    "If a mother can kill her own child, what is left before I kill you and you kill me?" -Mother Teresa when talking about abortion after accepting the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979

  • RazorbackRazorback Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 5,253

    *sigh* we need to get Pascal's wager stickied in this forum so we dont have to keep having this debate once a fortnight.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/wager.html

    But from my personal viewpoint. Why would an omnipotent, omniescent creator want me to believe in him "just in case" ?

    Wouldnt that invalidate the whole point of faith completely. A truly just being would respect my decision to use my inteligence to question that which I can neither prove nor refute.

    And if they dont... screw them... I will burn in hell with a smile on my face knowing I am more just than my creator.

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    "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon

  • MadAceMadAce Member Posts: 2,461
    I really, really want to go into debate with Richard Dawkins. He's an interesting figure... But he makes some huge mistakes.
  • reavoreavo Member Posts: 2,173
    Originally posted by Razorback


    *sigh* we need to get Pascal's wager stickied in this forum so we dont have to keep having this debate once a fortnight.
    http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/wager.html
    But from my personal viewpoint. Why would an omnipotent, omniescent creator want me to believe in him "just in case" ?
    Wouldnt that invalidate the whole point of faith completely. A truly just being would respect my decision to use my inteligence to question that which I can neither prove nor refute.
    And if they dont... screw them... I will burn in hell with a smile on my face knowing I am more just than my creator.
    If I were God then just knowing someone thought about me enough to try would be good enough. 



    To put a whole set of rules and variables into the equation that need to be met just right and then place those on a group of creatures with questionable if any meaningful intelligence just doesn't seem fair.  
  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,407

    I tend not to think very highly of God, mostly because he seems to often act like a petulant 5 year old.

  • reavoreavo Member Posts: 2,173
    Originally posted by Coldmeat


    I tend not to think very highly of God, mostly because he seems to often act like a petulant 5 year old.
    Are you sure that's God?  I see most of our problems as things we create for ourselves. 
  • ZikielZikiel Member Posts: 1,138
    If I'm wrong? If by wrong, it can be said I chose the wrong faith or chose not to believe, then so be it.  I'll stick to my ways and if I turn out to be wrong, then it sucks to be me. Not the most rational path, but who gives? I'm not saying that there isn't a higher/supreme being, I just think that worshipping said being for some kinda light at the end of the tunnel is kind of foolish. I'll take my dignity rather than bow down.
  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,407


    Originally posted by reavo
    Originally posted by Coldmeat I tend not to think very highly of God, mostly because he seems to often act like a petulant 5 year old.
    Are you sure that's God? I see most of our problems as things we create for ourselves. image

    Too true. I was commenting more on the whole "If you don't be my bestest friend, you're not invited to my birthday party" attitude that seems to exemplify 99% of Gawds decrees. Moreso OT than NT, but still.


  • JimmyLegsJimmyLegs Member Posts: 361
    Originally posted by Coldmeat


     

    Originally posted by reavo


    Originally posted by Coldmeat
    I tend not to think very highly of God, mostly because he seems to often act like a petulant 5 year old.



    Are you sure that's God? I see most of our problems as things we create for ourselves.

    Too true. I was commenting more on the whole "If you don't be my bestest friend, you're not invited to my birthday party" attitude that seems to exemplify 99% of Gawds decrees. Moreso OT than NT, but still.



    I lawled... On topic now, I never really seen or heard of that person Dawkins (or I just don't pay attention to anything) but he seems like a nice guy. I watched the interview when hes on CNN, he also seems very intelligent / smart. If I'm wrong, eh maybe they have cooler parties in other realms besides cloud city.



    I'm up to the challange, prove me wrong about god! But to do so, you need to kill me first. Not to get a little off topic, even more, but I like it when people say "I'm Christian." Then you saw them no more then 30 seconds ago swearing like a sailor and taking some shots (drink, not bag bag / needle).... Yeah ok. I find it very funny how people think, "I'm christian so if I ask for forgiveness it's good." No, it shouldn't (or doesn't, not sure about how that works) work that way. You can't up hold bit's and pieces of the bible or your holy document. All or none, take your pick.





    Well I'm done... I'm going to live how I want till the end, regardless of me being correct or incorrect on my life. Gogo free will!
  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918

    I like how he doesn't actually answer her question.  "What if I'm wrong?  Well what if you're wrong"  I thought this guy was a doctor..this is the best he can come up with? 

    Dawkins is an arrogant fool.  What more can I say about a man who refuses to believe in God but gives credence to a theory that proposes that all life origionated from self replicating clay crystals?

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,407


    Originally posted by Draenor
    I like how he doesn't actually answer her question. "What if I'm wrong? Well what if you're wrong" I thought this guy was a doctor..this is the best he can come up with?
    Dawkins is an arrogant fool. What more can I say about a man who refuses to believe in God but gives credence to a theory that proposes that all life origionated from self replicating clay crystals?

    Well, in all fairness, the same could be said for the proselytizer of any belief system.

    Personally, I am fond on Neil Gaimen's idea in American Gods. Wherein all Gods(essess) existed, based on peoples belief in them, and as peoples faith/belief/whatever waned, the gods power waned.

  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918
    Originally posted by Coldmeat


     

    Originally posted by Draenor

    I like how he doesn't actually answer her question. "What if I'm wrong? Well what if you're wrong" I thought this guy was a doctor..this is the best he can come up with?

    Dawkins is an arrogant fool. What more can I say about a man who refuses to believe in God but gives credence to a theory that proposes that all life origionated from self replicating clay crystals?

     

    Well, in all fairness, the same could be said for the proselytizer of any belief system.

    Personally, I am fond on Neil Gaimen's idea in American Gods. Wherein all Gods(essess) existed, based on peoples belief in them, and as peoples faith/belief/whatever waned, the gods power waned.



    Sorta like how in the movie Elf Santa Claus lost his power because people didn't believe in him?

    With Christianity, there is no need for people to believe in God.  Whether or not people believe in God does not change the fact that he exists...So there's no room for such a belief in Christianity.

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

  • JimmyLegsJimmyLegs Member Posts: 361
    Originally posted by Draenor


    I like how he doesn't actually answer her question.  "What if I'm wrong?  Well what if you're wrong"  I thought this guy was a doctor..this is the best he can come up with? 
    Dawkins is an arrogant fool.  What more can I say about a man who refuses to believe in God but gives credence to a theory that proposes that all life origionated from self replicating clay crystals?
    I know he didn't really answer the question, so he pretty much dodged it and turned it around. Not because he doesn't have a 100% answer (because no one does, or even will in our life time) but he did it to stay away from the answer everyone wants to hear, "Then I will go to hell."



    Like I said, I don't know alot about the man, but I do not critize any belief or lack of, because any one of us could be right or wrong. I really hope FSM is correct... I would laugh my ass off. I'm not attacking you, or any one else, because I hate arguing (I like talking, but when we someone starts to throw chairs, that's when I leave).



    We all most select our path and stick by it, what ever makes you happy and that is all that should matter. If some one say's "You're wrong 100%." Just say "Ok." It's not worth the energy getting mad or frustrated, just move on. Life is way too short to have petty arguements and fights over little things.



    If you feel that YOU are correct, then don't let any one take that away.
  • FilipinoFuryFilipinoFury Member Posts: 1,056
    Originally posted by Draenor

    Originally posted by Coldmeat


     

    Originally posted by Draenor

    I like how he doesn't actually answer her question. "What if I'm wrong? Well what if you're wrong" I thought this guy was a doctor..this is the best he can come up with?

    Dawkins is an arrogant fool. What more can I say about a man who refuses to believe in God but gives credence to a theory that proposes that all life origionated from self replicating clay crystals?

     

    Well, in all fairness, the same could be said for the proselytizer of any belief system.

    Personally, I am fond on Neil Gaimen's idea in American Gods. Wherein all Gods(essess) existed, based on peoples belief in them, and as peoples faith/belief/whatever waned, the gods power waned.



    Sorta like how in the movie Elf Santa Claus lost his power because people didn't believe in him?

    With Christianity, there is no need for people to believe in God.  Whether or not people believe in God does not change the fact that he exists...So there's no room for such a belief in Christianity.


    Now I don't know anything about self replicating clay crystals but im pretty sure when lightning strikes clay it has the rare chance of creating a simple life form, and I think a similar thing happens with sand. Now I could very well be wrong. . . 

    On Time? On Target? Never Quit?

  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918
    Originally posted by FilipinoFury

    Originally posted by Draenor

    Originally posted by Coldmeat


     

    Originally posted by Draenor

    I like how he doesn't actually answer her question. "What if I'm wrong? Well what if you're wrong" I thought this guy was a doctor..this is the best he can come up with?

    Dawkins is an arrogant fool. What more can I say about a man who refuses to believe in God but gives credence to a theory that proposes that all life origionated from self replicating clay crystals?

     

    Well, in all fairness, the same could be said for the proselytizer of any belief system.

    Personally, I am fond on Neil Gaimen's idea in American Gods. Wherein all Gods(essess) existed, based on peoples belief in them, and as peoples faith/belief/whatever waned, the gods power waned.



    Sorta like how in the movie Elf Santa Claus lost his power because people didn't believe in him?

    With Christianity, there is no need for people to believe in God.  Whether or not people believe in God does not change the fact that he exists...So there's no room for such a belief in Christianity.


    Now I don't know anything about self replicating clay crystals but im pretty sure when lightning strikes clay it has the rare chance of creating a simple life form, and I think a similar thing happens with sand. Now I could very well be wrong. . . 



    Upon looking for something about your clay and lightning scenario, I found this interesting note on talkorigins...

    Claim: "The most primitive cells are too complex to have come together by chance."

    Response: "Nobody knows what the most primitive cells looked like. All the cells around today are the product of billions of years of evolution."

    I love how that is just assumed and therefore it deemed is an acceptable response.

    Found a synopses of it written for a lecture about the origin of life by Robert M Hazen, Ph.D Harvard University 

    "Clay as Life: Fine-grained crystals of clay might, all by themselves, have been the very first life forms on Earth. According to this hypothesis, self-replicating clay crystals evolved the ability to manufacture complex biomolecules such as RNA, which eventually out-competed their clay cousins to become the dominant form of life on the planet"

    It doesn't say anything about lightning though...so I'm not sure if that's a part of the theory.

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918
    Originally posted by Nasica


     

    Originally posted by Draenor

    I like how he doesn't actually answer her question.  "What if I'm wrong?  Well what if you're wrong"  I thought this guy was a doctor..this is the best he can come up with? 

    Dawkins is an arrogant fool.  What more can I say about a man who refuses to believe in God but gives credence to a theory that proposes that all life origionated from self replicating clay crystals?

     

    There is no need to answer the question, it is a nonsensical question.

    What if your wrong about the prophets and Islam is the 'true' religion. As a video response said, what if there are giant penguins on the planet of mars that will kill us all if we dont beleive in them ?

    By asking "what if you are wrong" that lady is assuming that she is right which, as R.D. pointed out, is entirely baseless in this world of tens of thousands of religions.

     



    If I'm wrong then I don't know what happens, but at least I'll know that I've lived a good life.

    There, see how I answered that?  I didn't just ask you the same question back.  There's nothing nonsensical about asking such an unrepentent atheist about the implications of his own death.

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918
    Originally posted by Nasica


     

    Originally posted by Draenor


    Originally posted by Nasica
     
     





    Originally posted by Draenor

    I like how he doesn't actually answer her question.  "What if I'm wrong?  Well what if you're wrong"  I thought this guy was a doctor..this is the best he can come up with? 

    Dawkins is an arrogant fool.  What more can I say about a man who refuses to believe in God but gives credence to a theory that proposes that all life origionated from self replicating clay crystals?


     

    There is no need to answer the question, it is a nonsensical question.

    What if your wrong about the prophets and Islam is the 'true' religion. As a video response said, what if there are giant penguins on the planet of mars that will kill us all if we dont beleive in them ?

    By asking "what if you are wrong" that lady is assuming that she is right which, as R.D. pointed out, is entirely baseless in this world of tens of thousands of religions.

     


     

    If I'm wrong then I don't know what happens, but at least I'll know that I've lived a good life.

    There, see how I answered that?  I didn't just ask you the same question back.  There's nothing nonsensical about asking such an unrepentent atheist about the implications of his own death.





    Well, you didnt actually answer anything, you just shruged your shoulders and said "ohh well, shit happens" Its not particularly an answer, there is no proper answer though, as its a nonsensical question.

     

    EDIT: You also assumed that athiest dont live a good life.



    I didn't assume that atheists don't live good lives at all, I didn't even imply that.

    And I answered the question directly, and for myself...if I'm wrong about what I believe, then I don't know what is right, and could go to whatever hell is, whatever heaven is, or whatever nothingness is...Dawkins dodged the question entirely by simply asking the girl the same question she asked him.  If he had a set of balls he would have answered truthfully.

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

  • GameloadingGameloading Member UncommonPosts: 14,182
    Originally posted by Draenor


    I like how he doesn't actually answer her question.  "What if I'm wrong?  Well what if you're wrong"  I thought this guy was a doctor..this is the best he can come up with? 
    Dawkins is an arrogant fool.  What more can I say about a man who refuses to believe in God but gives credence to a theory that proposes that all life origionated from self replicating clay crystals?
    I find it VERY amusing that you call Richard Dawkins a fool while at the same time not even slightly understanding why he gave that answer. Richard Dawkins gave that answer to make people THINK for themself,  so they can answer the question themself. That is what Atheism is about. To think.



    I mean, the answer is quite clear isn't it? If you're wrong, you're screwed.



    Dawkins is no more arrogant then any other christian, he is simply just as passionatly about his belief. He is no more arrogant then any priest or follower.



    There is nothing foolish about not believing in God. especialy considering the serious lack of evidence that support the existance of a God, let alone the Bible. In fact, the Bible contains just as many miracles and wonders as the average fairy tale.
  • JasmineRoseJasmineRose Member Posts: 178
     I dont think any specific religion is right or wrong, I think one should go with what they feel is right even if they only feel it is right because they were taught it was right . I think that whatever religion you are and that you truly believe in the Heavenly Father  that you will go to heaven.

    image

  • AldaronAldaron Member Posts: 1,048
    The arrogance seeping throughout this thread is mind-numbing.

    "Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."

  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918
    Originally posted by Nasica


     
     
    Perhaps assumed was the wrong word, but it was definatly implied as shown by the underlined quote.

    Still, saying "i dont know" is not an answer. Whether you are being trueful or not is beside the point. "I dont know" is not an answer to anything, which is why R.D. Didnt give a proper answer, and asked the question back.

    The question is nonsensical as my question about martian penguins, any one who asks such a question as this girl has to give the EXACT same amount of thought to the martian penguin argument as they do to the God argument for the question to be relevant.

    I think you need to stop assuming what I try to imply.  If I want to say something on these boards, I will state it plainly, I don't play stupid little word games.  If I meant to say that atheists live meaningless lives, I would have said that.  But since that's not what I believe, I didn't say it.  So please stop deciding what I meant, and please stop deciding what was implied, when there really is very little basis for you to make such an assumption.  I would think that you've read enough of my posts to know that I don't skate around issues and phrases, I don't play with semantics, and I don't put in subtle jabs like "atheists can't lead good lives"  There was no hidden meaning in what I wrote, the fact that you want so badly for there to have been, is unsettling.

    "I don't know" is a more intellectually honest answer than what he did with that girl.  He sought out to try to put the girl in her place for asking such a question.  Funny you should say "I don't know is not an answer to anything" Because that's one of my major gripes with modern pseudo science...people are so afraid to just admit that they don't know something, so they postulate and guess, all it leads to is arrogance.  Dawkins made no attempt to answer her question because he himself knows the consequence if he is wrong, and hates admitting it, so instead, he decided to get a rise out of the crowd with his little tangent.  A tangent that I myself found a little bit offensive...to state that the girl was a Christian because she grew up in a Christian household is asenine.  Does he not realize that a great deal of people come to their faith in spite of the household in which they grew up?  Just look at Akiane, hell, just look at me.  My parents certainly were not always the Jesus freaks that they are today.  He acts as though people who are a part of a religion have no choice in the matter, quite conveniently I might add.

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918
    Originally posted by Gameloading

    I find it VERY amusing that you call Richard Dawkins a fool while at the same time not even slightly understanding why he gave that answer. Richard Dawkins gave that answer to make people THINK for themself,  so they can answer the question themself. That is what Atheism is about. To think.



    I mean, the answer is quite clear isn't it? If you're wrong, you're screwed.



    Dawkins is no more arrogant then any other christian, he is simply just as passionatly about his belief. He is no more arrogant then any priest or follower.



    There is nothing foolish about not believing in God. especialy considering the serious lack of evidence that support the existance of a God, let alone the Bible. In fact, the Bible contains just as many miracles and wonders as the average fairy tale.

     

    Of course I understand why he have gave the answer...what I find VERY amusing is that you simply assume that I have no idea why he gave the answer.  In truth, there are many reasons why Dawkins gave the answer that he did.  For you to sit there and give only one, completely misrepresents Dawkins as a person, and why he answered the way he did.  If it was simply a matter of wanting people to think, he wouldn't make constant snarky remarks about religion.

    I'm not going to get into whether or not atheism is foolish.  If you want to start a thread about the senselessness of atheism, Christianity, or any other belief, go right ahead.

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

  • DraenorDraenor Member UncommonPosts: 7,918
    Originally posted by Nasica


     
     
    Re-read what you wrote, in the context of the discussion, i understand your beliefs and position, but regardless of that there was a clear implication that you thought that by being a christian, you led a better life than someone who wasnt.
    I asked what if you, as a christian, were wrong, your reply to that was "Oh well, but atleast ive lived a good life". I dont want so badly for it to be offensive to athiests, quite the contrary, i was hoping someone i consider a friend would understand that you are implying that you lead a better life than an athiest. As, if you didnt think that, why would you write it ? What point were you trying to make by saying that ? As, apart from that implication, its is entirely unclear what you are trying to say. And knowing you are an English major, it leads people to wonder.
    Im sure R.D. wasnt trying to be offensive to that girl, just as much as i am sure you wernt trying to be offensive to athiests, the fact of the matter is though, that both comments are offensive (I understand why you think R.D. was being offensive, being a Buddhists in a Western society). I just do not understand why, when asked what if you as a christian in comparrison to athiests (specifically) were wrong, you replied with the statement "At least ive lived a good life" ?
    Simple as that
    Once again, no there was not.  I'm not going to sit here and go back and forth with you as to what I was trying to imply.  I'm smarter than to put in cheap little jabs like that on a forum because I know that people will harp on it.  It seems I cannot win, because even when I don't intend to do that at all, you assume that I have.  I said that if someone asked me the same question, that I would say that I don't know what will happen, but that I lived a good life.  That in no way implies that an atheist cannot live a good life.  You asked me how I would respond if someone had asked me that question, so I told you.  My response was not in comparison to an atheist life, and was stated as if someone had asked me the question out of the blue, without the faintest thought of Dawkins in my mind.  I responded how I always respond to that question when people ask me what happens if I'm wrong about being a Christian.  Because yes, people have asked me that question before, and that is how I answer.  Because it is an intellectually honest answer - I don't know what happens if I'm wrong, but at least I tried to do good in this world.

    Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.

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