I just bought gold for VSoH, LoTR, WoW, Eve, Ryzom, Lineage 2 come arrest me.... I could care less if anyone buys gold, sells gold or traffics in it. To use the Eve communities mindset toward cheating, it doesn'r affect me so why worry about it. EULA's are only valid to the company that writes it and have no basis as a legal document. Since we want to play with symantics, if virtual property has no value then how can I be seen as violating any EULA if even the currency in a game has no value?
If I go to an auction screen and want to buy item X and it cost 500 gold, I simply won't buy it and will do without. Now if I go out and get item X in a drop and come back to the auction screen and see that the item is selling for 500 gold then the inflated economy works in my favor since I now stand to get a lot more cash for my item than without the gold sellers plying their trade. Keep up the good work gold sellers you're making me a ton of cash when I sell stuff on the auction house.
Now if all of these gaming companies wanted to get rid of this problem theres an amazingly simple way to do it. No direct player to player trades of any item, everything has to go through an escrow system the game has coded into it, items are afforded a set value that the recipient has to pay to the seller. Sure there wouldn't be any competative pricing but so what the playing field is level and thats what we all want anyway right?
As far as the notion that people are breaking a law, yeah right!
Given a choice between playing Eve Online for free or having to walk over hot coals wearing a duck contume. I'd walk over the coals and quack my head off.
Some people feel they have to have the best gear, others feel that the game makes them work too hard, there are any number of ways people justify cheating.
Well I'm actually against it, but I bought Ultima Online gold once when I lost my main account some years ago. I wouldn't farm for two entire months 12 hours per day just to get my stuff back and THEN start pvp'ing again. So I just ended buying gold. Acutally I think I would have left UO if I hadn't bought that gold.
Ultima Online 98~04 Dark Age of Camelot 03~07 Final Fantasy XI 04~06 Guild Wars 05~08 World of Warcraft 04~05 Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
Buying in-game currency is definitely cheating. Using real money in a virtual world is just sad. How anyone can exchange their hard earned cash, for easy earned virtual money is beyond me. Not that I could care less about what people do with their money, but when I see it happening I'm still going to see it as a sad point in someones life.
Selling it is even worse. There's no way you should be able to sell something that you don't own, and I really don't understand why it isn't illegal. If someone was selling something I created, I'd be pretty pissed off even if I was making as much as Blizzard... it's not yours to sell! Those are the people that need to get a real job, and stop spamming my fucking mailbox, and sending me 20,000 whispers a day!!!!
Buying in-game currency is definitely cheating. Using real money in a virtual world is just sad. How anyone can exchange their hard earned cash, for easy earned virtual money is beyond me. Not that I could care less about what people do with their money, but when I see it happening I'm still going to see it as a sad point in someones life.
Selling it is even worse. There's no way you should be able to sell something that you don't own, and I really don't understand why it isn't illegal. If someone was selling something I created, I'd be pretty pissed off even if I was making as much as Blizzard... it's not yours to sell! Those are the people that need to get a real job, and stop spamming my fucking mailbox, and sending me 20,000 whispers a day!!!!
I would not say its really cheating so i disagree. I think its basicaly just a trade IG but iwth something outside, and since its not illegal (although i agree with your point that it should be good addition) its basicaly a fair trade. And although i cant really comprehend anyone doing that either, i only work retail for just above minimum wage. Maybe once i get my actual job (still working through college) i'll be able to know what thats like, but if someones making neough money that htey dont know what to do with it, then why not lol.
I believe that it is acceptable, in certain cases. I myself work close to 60 hours a week, the I spend time with my friends. That leaves me with maybe 2 - 3 hours of game play a week. I don't want to grind monsters to earn cash, I want to hang out with my friends and PvP. So I can see myself trading $10 that I can earn in less then 20 minutes of work to save 3 - 4 hours of grind.
There isa million other cases where people buy it because they want to be better then others and they need it to buy gear, imo that is dumb, but hey it is your money do as you please.
You can try to come up with whatever system you want to ban, counter or fight this, but as long as there will be people who are willing to buy there will always be people who will be willing to sell. It is the same with drugs and guns, if there is a demand supply will appear shortly.
Buying in-game currency is definitely cheating. Using real money in a virtual world is just sad. How anyone can exchange their hard earned cash, for easy earned virtual money is beyond me. Not that I could care less about what people do with their money, but when I see it happening I'm still going to see it as a sad point in someones life.
Selling it is even worse. There's no way you should be able to sell something that you don't own, and I really don't understand why it isn't illegal. If someone was selling something I created, I'd be pretty pissed off even if I was making as much as Blizzard... it's not yours to sell! Those are the people that need to get a real job, and stop spamming my fucking mailbox, and sending me 20,000 whispers a day!!!!
I would not say its really cheating so i disagree. I think its basicaly just a trade IG but iwth something outside, and since its not illegal (although i agree with your point that it should be good addition) its basicaly a fair trade. And although i cant really comprehend anyone doing that either, i only work retail for just above minimum wage. Maybe once i get my actual job (still working through college) i'll be able to know what thats like, but if someones making neough money that htey dont know what to do with it, then why not lol.
IT IS CHEATING, IT IS ILLEGAL.
Since you cannot understand simple fact. This is NOT OPINION. It is a declaration of FACT.
All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to World of Warcraft (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into World of Warcraft, transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games played on World of Warcraft, and the World of Warcraft client and server software) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. World of Warcraft is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions, and other laws. All rights are reserved. World of Warcraft may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard Entertainment's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.
It has come to our attention that certain individuals are selling Blizzard's in-game property for cash on auction sites such as eBay and on personal websites. The World of Warcraft Terms of Use clearly states that all of the content in World of Warcraft is the property of Blizzard, and Blizzard does not allow "in game" items to be sold for real money. Accordingly, Blizzard Entertainment will take any and all actions necessary to stop this behavior. Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun. In order to promote a fun and fair environment for all our customers, we are actively investigating those individuals who engage in this inappropriate activity and reserve the right to take legal action against these individuals to protect World of Warcraft for all those who "play by the rules." If you are found to be selling in-game property (such as coins, items, or characters), for real money, you will lose your characters and accounts, and Blizzard Entertainment reserves its right to pursue legal action against you as well.
We also want to remind potential buyers in the game to please refrain from buying in-game property with real money. We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property. In addition, we feel that characters can find ample equipment and money within the game through their own adventuring and questing. Please understand that if you do purchase in-game property from sellers on eBay and personal sites, we may temporarily suspend your account, and at the very least, delete the offending items.
Thank you for understanding our position. Blizzard Entertainment is committed to maintaining the atmosphere of fair play and fun in World of Warcraft.
Even other countries are starting to take action against this deplorable practice:
Governments around the world are having increasing difficulty dealing with online games. In Vietnam, two games were just launched "The gioi Hoan My” (Perfect World) from Quang Minh DEC and “Phong than Van tien tran” (Wind God’s Fights) from VinaGame according to VietNamNet Bridge.
VinaGame now operates five games: Vo Lam Truyen Ky (Fighter Stories / Sworadsman), Ragnarok Online, Cuu Long Tranh Ba (9 Dragons’ Fights), and the new Wind God’s Fights.
At the same time, Ragnarok Online has been shut down in Ho Chi Minh City for not implementing government required time limits and restrictions on virtual item trading / Real Money Transactions (RMT), as reported in VietNamNet. Swordsman has lost half of its clientèle since the time restrictions have been enforced, according to Than Nien Daily. VinaGame is concerned that these restrictions on playing time and virtual item trading may result in the failure of the games and the company.
Did you catch that? MAY RESULT IN THE FAILURE OF THE GAMES AND THE COMPANY...
It doesn't affect me? It's not hurting anyone?
How about the tons of development Sony, Blizzard, and other game companies have to put into software, protections, and watching accounts for illegal activity? That takes away from development, which means less updates, which means it affects gameplay and content.
How about this little nugget:
The recent BBC report of a cursor flaw in Windows and its use to attack World of Warcraft accounts was not, in and of itself, notable. There have been a growing number of viruses targeting World of Warcraft and other online game accounts.
No, what was notable was that a World of Warcraft account is worth more than a stolen credit card with authentication information. A stolen credit card with verification information is typically worth $6. A stolen WoW account is worth $10, potentially much more depending on the assets in the account.
Let's repeat that:
A stolen World of Warcraft Account is worth more than a stolen credit card.
Seriously folks, the fact that "It's just a game" and "My actions don't affect anybody else" is completely self-centered and stupid. It is stealing, it is cheating, and YOU, the buyer, are adding fuel to this increasing problem. Get a clue people, when your account is set on time limits, and games start restricting in-game free enterprise, and all your "sandbox" games you want so bad dry up and go away because this problem has to be controlled. When your account with your favorite characters is stolen and sold to someone in Bucktooth Iowa, and you're banned from online gaming because your character was reported sending out spam to every player on the server, just maybe YOU'LL WAKE UP and stop being an idiot. Of course, by then, it'll be too late and Dirk the Destroyer will be someone else's for the low low price of $499.99 with an onsite coupon.
If you buy in game merchandise for real money, and then turn around and complain about not having any content, or the last expansion was lame, then STFU, and be a part of the solution, not the problem.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
I don't understand how people can say buying gold isn't cheating when there are rules specificly against it. I'll bet these people would have a fit if they had to deal with a speed hacker in PvP but according to their way of thinking if he could self jusify his actions then it is OK.
Here's another bit from xfire.com a lawyer answering to a gold seller:
I believe it's time to shut this down once and for all.
I'd like to state a section from the World of Warcraft Terms of use, which can be found here.
C. You agree that you will not (i) modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of a World of Warcraft installation; (ii) create or use cheats, "mods", and/or hacks, or any other third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience; (iii) use any third-party software that intercepts, "mines", or otherwise collects information from or through World of Warcraft; or (iv) allows players who are playing characters aligned with the "Alliance" faction to chat or otherwise communicate directly with players who are playing characters aligned with the "Horde" [color=darkred]faction, or vice versa. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may update World of Warcraft with authorized patches and updates distributed by Blizzard, and use authorized Third Party User Interfaces as set forth in Section 13(g), below.
Now, we move to Section 13(g):
G. The use of any "user interface" other than the user interface that is included in the World of Warcraft Software ("Third Party User Interface") is not recommended by Blizzard Entertainment, and you hereby agree to indemnify and hold harmless Blizzard Entertainment from all claims, damages, and other losses which may arise from your use of a Third Party User Interface. At such time that Blizzard elects to post a list of approved Third-Party User Interfaces on its website, you agree that you will use only those Third-Party User Interfaces approved by Blizzard, and that you will use no other Third-Party User Interfaces in connection with World of Warcraft.
After analyzing these two sections, it can be clearly seen that any 3rd party program not affiliated with or approved by Blizzard Software cannot be legally used with World of Warcraft. The World of Warcraft "experience" can be defined as the use of the software within the legal scope of the Terms of Use set down by Blizzard Software at the above given link. Any 3rd Party Program will alter the World of Warcraft "experience", which is clearly in violation of Section C (Given Above) stated in the World of Warcraft Terms of Use agreement.
In response to your "lack of privacy" argument, I would like to state Section 13(E) of the Terms of Use Agreement:
E. In order to assist Blizzard Entertainment to police users who may use "hacks," or "cheats" to gain an advantage over other players, you acknowledge that Blizzard Entertainment shall have the right to obtain certain information from your computer and its component parts, including your computer's random access memory, video card, central processing unit, and storage devices. This information will only be used for the purpose of identifying "cheaters," and for no other reason.
This section of the Terms of Use agreement clearly states that by accepting the Terms of Use, you waive the right to certain privacies previously given as a citizen of whatever country you reside in. Once you click the "accept" button, those privacies are waved any time you play WoW.
Now, I'd like to state another law you're breaking, by showing you Section 11 of the WoW Terms of Use:
All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to World of Warcraft (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into World of Warcraft, transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games played on World of Warcraft, and the World of Warcraft client and server software) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. World of Warcraft is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions, and other laws. All rights are reserved. World of Warcraft may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard Entertainment's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.
Just in case you don't know, China is under a US copyright convention, therefore you have to follow the United States copyright laws.
Oh, but I think there's more.
I'd like to state my final point. This is Section 8 of the WoW EULA, entitled "Selling of Items".
Remember, at the outset of these Terms of Use, where we discussed how you were "licensed" the right to use World of Warcraft, and that your license was "limited"? Well, here is one of the more important areas where these license limitations come into effect. Note that Blizzard Entertainment either owns, or has exclusively licensed, all of the content which appears in World of Warcraft. Therefore, no one has the right to "sell" Blizzard Entertainment's content, except Blizzard Entertainment! So Blizzard Entertainment does not recognize any property claims outside of World of Warcraft or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything related to World of Warcraft. Accordingly, you may not sell items for "real" money or exchange items outside of World of Warcraft.
In lamen's terms, getting lots of gold on your own is legal. Gold selling is quite the contrary. By selling gold, you're literally selling a piece of programming designed by Blizzard Software, and the last time I checked, nobody other than Blizzard Software owns that piece of code (And yes, even though to you, that 10, 20 or maybe even 100 gold seems like a metaphysical object, it was still created by an automated program designed by someone at blizzard, which owns that program, and any extraneous code created by it).
You really wanna fight this? Take it to court. Everything's laid here in stone and Blizzard has you pinned on all points. I dare you.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Buying in-game currency is definitely cheating. Using real money in a virtual world is just sad. How anyone can exchange their hard earned cash, for easy earned virtual money is beyond me. Not that I could care less about what people do with their money, but when I see it happening I'm still going to see it as a sad point in someones life.
Selling it is even worse. There's no way you should be able to sell something that you don't own, and I really don't understand why it isn't illegal. If someone was selling something I created, I'd be pretty pissed off even if I was making as much as Blizzard... it's not yours to sell! Those are the people that need to get a real job, and stop spamming my fucking mailbox, and sending me 20,000 whispers a day!!!!
I would not say its really cheating so i disagree. I think its basicaly just a trade IG but iwth something outside, and since its not illegal (although i agree with your point that it should be good addition) its basicaly a fair trade. And although i cant really comprehend anyone doing that either, i only work retail for just above minimum wage. Maybe once i get my actual job (still working through college) i'll be able to know what thats like, but if someones making neough money that htey dont know what to do with it, then why not lol.
IT IS CHEATING, IT IS ILLEGAL.
Since you cannot understand simple fact. This is NOT OPINION. It is a declaration of FACT.
All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to World of Warcraft (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into World of Warcraft, transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games played on World of Warcraft, and the World of Warcraft client and server software) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. World of Warcraft is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions, and other laws. All rights are reserved. World of Warcraft may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard Entertainment's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.
It has come to our attention that certain individuals are selling Blizzard's in-game property for cash on auction sites such as eBay and on personal websites. The World of Warcraft Terms of Use clearly states that all of the content in World of Warcraft is the property of Blizzard, and Blizzard does not allow "in game" items to be sold for real money. Accordingly, Blizzard Entertainment will take any and all actions necessary to stop this behavior. Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun. In order to promote a fun and fair environment for all our customers, we are actively investigating those individuals who engage in this inappropriate activity and reserve the right to take legal action against these individuals to protect World of Warcraft for all those who "play by the rules." If you are found to be selling in-game property (such as coins, items, or characters), for real money, you will lose your characters and accounts, and Blizzard Entertainment reserves its right to pursue legal action against you as well.
We also want to remind potential buyers in the game to please refrain from buying in-game property with real money. We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property. In addition, we feel that characters can find ample equipment and money within the game through their own adventuring and questing. Please understand that if you do purchase in-game property from sellers on eBay and personal sites, we may temporarily suspend your account, and at the very least, delete the offending items.
Thank you for understanding our position. Blizzard Entertainment is committed to maintaining the atmosphere of fair play and fun in World of Warcraft.
Even other countries are starting to take action against this deplorable practice:
Governments around the world are having increasing difficulty dealing with online games. In Vietnam, two games were just launched "The gioi Hoan My” (Perfect World) from Quang Minh DEC and “Phong than Van tien tran” (Wind God’s Fights) from VinaGame according to VietNamNet Bridge.
VinaGame now operates five games: Vo Lam Truyen Ky (Fighter Stories / Sworadsman), Ragnarok Online, Cuu Long Tranh Ba (9 Dragons’ Fights), and the new Wind God’s Fights.
At the same time, Ragnarok Online has been shut down in Ho Chi Minh City for not implementing government required time limits and restrictions on virtual item trading / Real Money Transactions (RMT), as reported in VietNamNet. Swordsman has lost half of its clientèle since the time restrictions have been enforced, according to Than Nien Daily. VinaGame is concerned that these restrictions on playing time and virtual item trading may result in the failure of the games and the company.
Did you catch that? MAY RESULT IN THE FAILURE OF THE GAMES AND THE COMPANY...
It doesn't affect me? It's not hurting anyone?
How about the tons of development Sony, Blizzard, and other game companies have to put into software, protections, and watching accounts for illegal activity? That takes away from development, which means less updates, which means it affects gameplay and content.
How about this little nugget:
The recent BBC report of a cursor flaw in Windows and its use to attack World of Warcraft accounts was not, in and of itself, notable. There have been a growing number of viruses targeting World of Warcraft and other online game accounts.
No, what was notable was that a World of Warcraft account is worth more than a stolen credit card with authentication information. A stolen credit card with verification information is typically worth $6. A stolen WoW account is worth $10, potentially much more depending on the assets in the account.
Let's repeat that:
A stolen World of Warcraft Account is worth more than a stolen credit card.
Seriously folks, the fact that "It's just a game" and "My actions don't affect anybody else" is completely self-centered and stupid. It is stealing, it is cheating, and YOU, the buyer, are adding fuel to this increasing problem. Get a clue people, when your account is set on time limits, and games start restricting in-game free enterprise, and all your "sandbox" games you want so bad dry up and go away because this problem has to be controlled. When your account with your favorite characters is stolen and sold to someone in Bucktooth Iowa, and you're banned from online gaming because your character was reported sending out spam to every player on the server, just maybe YOU'LL WAKE UP and stop being an idiot. Of course, by then, it'll be too late and Dirk the Destroyer will be someone else's for the low low price of $499.99 with an onsite coupon.
If you buy in game merchandise for real money, and then turn around and complain about not having any content, or the last expansion was lame, then STFU, and be a part of the solution, not the problem.
Theres more games out there than just WoW. When we say in a pub forum that is it cheating to sell virtual gold (Which doesn tjust mean gold in WoW but it also says in ONLINE GAMES, note GAMES which seems to be something that doesnt make sense TO YOU, you might wanna do some research, might i direct you to the left panel of the screen, those are other mmo's which have CUrrency which may or may not be GOld but do have currency or other items which may be bought through ebay, paypal cash or check.
SO PLEASE before you bring up ONLY blizzard terms, think about your post. 1 game doesnt state for all.
Theres more games out there than just WoW. When we say in a pub forum that is it cheating to sell virtual gold (Which doesn tjust mean gold in WoW but it also says in ONLINE GAMES, note GAMES which seems to be something that doesnt make sense TO YOU, you might wanna do some research, might i direct you to the left panel of the screen, those are other mmo's which have CUrrency which may or may not be GOld but do have currency or other items which may be bought through ebay, paypal cash or check.
SO PLEASE before you bring up ONLY blizzard terms, think about your post. 1 game doesnt state for all.
Are you serious? I really hope you are kidding because this would TRULY be unbelievable. EVERY GAME on this page comes with an EULA that you have to click I AGREE every time you run the game. I'm really going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say, "Haha, very funny, that's a good one.", because noone would post this seriously. If I posted the EULA's of every game and copyright infringement laws it would literally make this thread much longer than it has to be for NORMAL people with any common sense. I will leave it at that.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Person A: student, unemployed, or in general lots of time on his hands: Spends countless hours playing a computer game to get certain items, farm gold, you name it
Person B: Has a job, works 8-10 hours a day, only plays a couple of hours a week.
Person B decides to take money that he earned while Person A was farming gold in game and decides to buy the gold instead. Both people invested time, but while Person A did it playing a computer game, Person B has a regular income and decides that he wants to transform this time investment into ingame-money.
Difference is that Person B has a regular job that allows him to decide if the invested time will translate into a new car, home cinema, nice lingerie for his girlfriend or virtual currency, while Person does not have this choice (unless he decides to become a gold seller...^^).
So, bottom line - to each his own. Buying gold does not have to be a bad thing. Thats how our society works, or am I only allowed to eat potatoes if I grew them in my backyard?
Well you posted about 2 games from vietnam saying HEY THERE *****LIMITING****** trading and what not of game items outside of the game, and blizzard (of course the new money hungry machine that they are) have made it against EULA. if your going to make an arguement on how EVERY GAME make sit "illegal" then please post more than 3 paragraphs total with 2/3 of the post about WOW then the next one being about limiting, but not eliminating, RL online item trading
Theres more games out there than just WoW. When we say in a pub forum that is it cheating to sell virtual gold (Which doesn tjust mean gold in WoW but it also says in ONLINE GAMES, note GAMES which seems to be something that doesnt make sense TO YOU, you might wanna do some research, might i direct you to the left panel of the screen, those are other mmo's which have CUrrency which may or may not be GOld but do have currency or other items which may be bought through ebay, paypal cash or check.
SO PLEASE before you bring up ONLY blizzard terms, think about your post. 1 game doesnt state for all.
The above posters were using one example. It happens to be the biggest example currently out there. There is not enough space on these forums to go into detail on ALL of the MMOGs out there. Therefore, you limit your examples to a choice few (or in this case one).
I have done some research on this. The only top line game that I have been able to find that RMT are not against the EULA (and hence a breach of contract and illegal) is Second Life. What other top tier game(s) allows RMT? (And yes, the definition of "top tier game" is not defined intentionally)
The case has been made above against RMT in MMOGs using specific examples. I would challenge you to do the same. What games allow RMTs? Do any of those games on the left panel allow RMTs? Throwing general statements and accusations out there without anything to back them up doesn't do anybody any good and lends itself to a flame war (as I am sure that this statement does).
Person A: student, unemployed, or in general lots of time on his hands: Spends countless hours playing a computer game to get certain items, farm gold, you name it
Person B: Has a job, works 8-10 hours a day, only plays a couple of hours a week.
Person B decides to take money that he earned while Person A was farming gold in game and decides to buy the gold instead. Both people invested time, but while Person A did it playing a computer game, Person B has a regular income and decides that he wants to transform this time investment into ingame-money.
Difference is that Person B has a regular job that allows him to decide if the invested time will translate into a new car, home cinema, nice lingerie for his girlfriend or virtual currency, while Person does not have this choice (unless he decides to become a gold seller...^^).
So, bottom line - to each his own. Buying gold does not have to be a bad thing. Thats how our society works, or am I only allowed to eat potatoes if I grew them in my backyard?
bury them deep so the deer dont get them and dont forget to water them!
If buying virtual currency with real money is against game policy then it's wrong. There are games that are set up for buying virtual currency or items with real money so just play those if you want to buy. Never understood why people feel the need to cheat in games.
So, bottom line - to each his own. Buying gold does not have to be a bad thing. Thats how our society works, or am I only allowed to eat potatoes if I grew them in my backyard?
I can appreciate your opinion. And I, for the most part agree. I believe 100% that you should be able to do what you want without any interference. UNTIL that interferes with somebody else doing what the they want. There have been any number of articles, tv shows, news reports, blogs, podcasts, etc, etc, etc that have gone into the actual negative effect RMT's have on a game. I wont reiterate here what (most) everybody these forums has already read/listened to/watched. RMTs (through gold farming/selling/buying etc) negatively impact the games and the players that are using the service legitimately (ie following the EULA).
I would love to agree with you that the gold sellers/buyers can do what they want, but the bottom line is that it ruins the games for legitimate players. And they don't have the right to do that. You may eat your potatoes out of your backyard or the ones you buy at the market. You may not go out and buy them from somebody who has stolen those potatoes from the farmer.
There's tons of reasons why you shouldn't use the secondary market. To be honest, I'm surprised so many people support it.
1.) It's almost always against a game's terms of service. That means you're not allowed to do it.
2.) People play MMO's to escape real life. When you log-in, you have equal opportunity as everyone else. The secondary market kills that. The people with money to throw around get it easier, and the people that don't know it happens all the time. Maybe it's just me, but I think people who pay $15 a month from a limited budget deserve to be equal to people who have very little to worry about in RL.
I don't care much about the first reason ( God knows my old guild violated the TOS in WoW all the time with account sharing). But the second reason is something I feel everyone should care about. There's so much injustice in the world. Some people work two jobs their entire life, and yet some others never even have to lift a finger.
I know it's just a game, but I would like to believe that that kind of unfairness doesn't exist in the world of MMORPG's.
I can't believe what I'm reading in these threads, it absolutely appalls me to see the "opinions". One of the things I really like(d) about these forums is there are true gamers here. While we may disagree and argue about games and game mechanics, as that is always fun, we at least SHOULD agree that you play the game and not resort to underhanded cheating and lying. This is absolutely infuriating. Buying in-game gold is CHEATING I mean, you can TRY to justify your actions by saying "I'm a casual player", and "I can play the game how I want", and WAH WAH WAH. You're basically saying, "I'm a complete moron because I have to CHEAT to keep up in a stupid game". You click on an EULA EVERY TIME you run the game that says YOU AGREE to not cheat and buy/sell digital information THAT DOES NOT EVEN BELONG TO YOU. 1. You are a cheater. Pretty simple. 2. You are a liar. Every time you click the I AGREE button. 3. You are a felon, or supporting a felon. It is a felony to sell digital copyrited information. Other countries are safe as they do not have the strict laws on enforcing the protections on the hard working companies/employees that actually program and design such games and systems. 4. You are helping to destroy the very game you are trying to cheat at. YOU are the cause that destroys in-game economies, in-game dynamics and in-game designs to keep everyone on even footing. What's next, you going to go sell drugs to kindergartners in the schoolyard?
Ok, I'm not going to argue if buying virtual gold is cheating or not, cause it doesn't matter. (playing the devil's advocate for now... will explain later)
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU?
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU?
Of course you can say that you work a real job, support your family AND is able to play without buying the virtual gold. Good for you, but why does others buying in-game gold matters to YOU? Do you think that since you are able to do it so others must be able to do it?
Sure, view it from the law and copyright that buying/selling gold is in fact illegal, but does that stop people? WHY doesn't it stop people from buying/selling virtual gold? Is it because the people who buy/sell is trying to break the laws for the sake of money? Is it because that some people just think game as another investment? Is it because that they have the choice all along? What does it mean to click the I AGREE on the ToS and EULA?
There are so many questions that can be asked to see where the REAL problem lies. The virtual gold selling/buying is not just the problem, but a result to some of the underlying issues in game designs AND the way laws are applied in each case.
All that aside, can you say it honestly that you have NEVER lie/cheat in ANY game, whether is MMO or not? Because if you want to mention about being cheater, then let's get to the bottom. Is there ANYONE who has never cheated in anything in life? And HOW would you prove it?
Like I said, I'm NOT for virtual gold selling/buying, but I would like to get to the bottom of the issue, not just the surface issue. So I say let the gamers choose on their own. If they decided to use their own money and violating the rules, and are found, that's their own fault. But they are NOT subject to YOUR judgment, but the game company's. If they are lucky and were never found out, so what? Do you think that since you don't do it then that put you on a higher moral standard than others? Not really, but if you don't think it's right, you can try to persuade those around you to stop, but you can't MAKE them. It's their decision.
And one final thing. IF the law works, WHY is there still illegal drugs in this nation? If the law should make everything right, then why is there still a flow of illegal drugs everywhere? That's more or less something to think about.
Person A: student, unemployed, or in general lots of time on his hands: Spends countless hours playing a computer game to get certain items, farm gold, you name it
Person B: Has a job, works 8-10 hours a day, only plays a couple of hours a week.
Person B decides to take money that he earned while Person A was farming gold in game and decides to buy the gold instead. Both people invested time, but while Person A did it playing a computer game, Person B has a regular income and decides that he wants to transform this time investment into ingame-money.
Difference is that Person B has a regular job that allows him to decide if the invested time will translate into a new car, home cinema, nice lingerie for his girlfriend or virtual currency, while Person does not have this choice (unless he decides to become a gold seller...^^).
So, bottom line - to each his own. Buying gold does not have to be a bad thing. Thats how our society works, or am I only allowed to eat potatoes if I grew them in my backyard?
Person A: student, unemployed, or in general lots of time on his hands: Spends countless hours playing a computer game to get certain items, farm gold, you name it
Person B: owns a liquor store, works 12 hours a day, works hard for the money and invests in his future
Person A, being that he spends all his time playing video games, has no money, so he goes to Person B's liquor store and robs him of several cases of liquor to sell to his friends. Both people invested time, but while Person A did it playing a computer game, Person B has a regular income and is screwed because some loser without a job robbed him.
So, bottom line - IT'S ILLEGAL!!
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU?
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU?
This becomes a much more valid issue if it's a pvp game. It's not fun losing battles and wars because your opponents dug deep into their wallets to fund a grudge against you.
It can also become apparent in pve games if there is a player-based economy. Rare/popular items drastically shoot up in price when people start buying gold. The average joe can't afford these items through normal farming, and the "everyone does it anyway"/"you can't progress without buying gold" mentality sets in.
You effectively split the consumer base into two completely different categories; those who have infinite funds regardless of time played, and those who don't. Obviously everyone will price their items according to the richer part.
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU?
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU?
1) It alters the economy. Some say it destroys the economy. If you don't buy gold, you can't afford to buy in game items from other players.
2) It alters the drop rate of rare/expensive items for the legitimate player. There are farmers that camp spots/areas in order to get that rare drop and sell it for real money. Hence the legitimate player can't get the drop.
3) Legitimate players are run out of areas by gold farmers so that the farmers have exclusive access to the rare drop sites. Chaining monsters to attack legitimate players is a common tactic. PVPing is another.
4) Game companies spend resources (time, money, etc) on preventing/stopping gold farmers. These resources could/should be going into making the game better.
That is why it matters to me. Yes, I am the one getting cheated. That is how it affects me.
Those are the big four that come to mind immediately. There have been any number of professional articles/reports done on gold farming and the negative impact on the industry as a whole and the player as an individual.
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU?
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU?
This becomes a much more valid issue if it's a pvp game. It's not fun losing battles and wars because your opponents dug deep into their wallets to fund a grudge against you.
If the PvP game is based on character skills, and that gears doesn't matter at all, or just very little, then this wouldn't be the case. And like I said, it's more of the game design issue that got expand into the virtual gold selling/buying issue.
It can also become apparent in pve games if there is a player-based economy. Rare/popular items drastically shoot up in price when people start buying gold. The average joe can't afford these items through normal farming, and the "everyone does it anyway"/"you can't progress without buying gold" mentality sets in.
You effectively split the consumer base into two completely different categories; those who have infinite funds regardless of time played, and those who don't. Obviously everyone will price their items according to the richer part.
This could be solve with less focus on gear/items, and more on character development. But so far, the MOST games that have very active virtual gold selling/buying issues are the ones that has more gear/item dependent. That should tell you something already...
To those who tries to answer the questions I asked:
I'm just trying to help people to see that it is more than just the virtual gold problem, but the whole design of the game that ALLOWS the virtual gold trading to be active and the norm of these games.
Comments
I just bought gold for VSoH, LoTR, WoW, Eve, Ryzom, Lineage 2 come arrest me.... I could care less if anyone buys gold, sells gold or traffics in it. To use the Eve communities mindset toward cheating, it doesn'r affect me so why worry about it. EULA's are only valid to the company that writes it and have no basis as a legal document. Since we want to play with symantics, if virtual property has no value then how can I be seen as violating any EULA if even the currency in a game has no value?
If I go to an auction screen and want to buy item X and it cost 500 gold, I simply won't buy it and will do without. Now if I go out and get item X in a drop and come back to the auction screen and see that the item is selling for 500 gold then the inflated economy works in my favor since I now stand to get a lot more cash for my item than without the gold sellers plying their trade. Keep up the good work gold sellers you're making me a ton of cash when I sell stuff on the auction house.
Now if all of these gaming companies wanted to get rid of this problem theres an amazingly simple way to do it. No direct player to player trades of any item, everything has to go through an escrow system the game has coded into it, items are afforded a set value that the recipient has to pay to the seller. Sure there wouldn't be any competative pricing but so what the playing field is level and thats what we all want anyway right?
As far as the notion that people are breaking a law, yeah right!
Given a choice between playing Eve Online for free or having to walk over hot coals wearing a duck contume. I'd walk over the coals and quack my head off.
Some people feel they have to have the best gear, others feel that the game makes them work too hard, there are any number of ways people justify cheating.
Ultima Online 98~04
Dark Age of Camelot 03~07
Final Fantasy XI 04~06
Guild Wars 05~08
World of Warcraft 04~05
Unsuccessful Tries: DFO/EQ2/DRaja/Rag/Req/RYL/9D/Cabal/KO/PSU/RF/GE/TO/TR/DDO/EVE/LoTRO/L2/RZ/SWG/VG
So my vote is no...
Selling it is even worse. There's no way you should be able to sell something that you don't own, and I really don't understand why it isn't illegal. If someone was selling something I created, I'd be pretty pissed off even if I was making as much as Blizzard... it's not yours to sell! Those are the people that need to get a real job, and stop spamming my fucking mailbox, and sending me 20,000 whispers a day!!!!
-iCeh
There isa million other cases where people buy it because they want to be better then others and they need it to buy gear, imo that is dumb, but hey it is your money do as you please.
You can try to come up with whatever system you want to ban, counter or fight this, but as long as there will be people who are willing to buy there will always be people who will be willing to sell. It is the same with drugs and guns, if there is a demand supply will appear shortly.
IT IS CHEATING, IT IS ILLEGAL.
Since you cannot understand simple fact. This is NOT OPINION. It is a declaration of FACT.
The link is: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html. I have provided the exact phrase that mentions our rights on our own intellectual property(this includes gold, accounts, characters, etc.).
11. Ownership.
All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to World of Warcraft (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into World of Warcraft, transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games played on World of Warcraft, and the World of Warcraft client and server software) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. World of Warcraft is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions, and other laws. All rights are reserved. World of Warcraft may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard Entertainment's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.
Another one:
[edit] From the Forums:
Even other countries are starting to take action against this deplorable practice:
VinaGame now operates five games: Vo Lam Truyen Ky (Fighter Stories / Sworadsman), Ragnarok Online, Cuu Long Tranh Ba (9 Dragons’ Fights), and the new Wind God’s Fights.
At the same time, Ragnarok Online has been shut down in Ho Chi Minh City for not implementing government required time limits and restrictions on virtual item trading / Real Money Transactions (RMT), as reported in VietNamNet. Swordsman has lost half of its clientèle since the time restrictions have been enforced, according to Than Nien Daily. VinaGame is concerned that these restrictions on playing time and virtual item trading may result in the failure of the games and the company.
No, what was notable was that a World of Warcraft account is worth more than a stolen credit card with authentication information. A stolen credit card with verification information is typically worth $6. A stolen WoW account is worth $10, potentially much more depending on the assets in the account.
Let's repeat that:
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Here's another bit from xfire.com a lawyer answering to a gold seller:
I believe it's time to shut this down once and for all.
I'd like to state a section from the World of Warcraft Terms of use, which can be found here.
C. You agree that you will not (i) modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of a World of Warcraft installation; (ii) create or use cheats, "mods", and/or hacks, or any other third-party software designed to modify the World of Warcraft experience; (iii) use any third-party software that intercepts, "mines", or otherwise collects information from or through World of Warcraft; or (iv) allows players who are playing characters aligned with the "Alliance" faction to chat or otherwise communicate directly with players who are playing characters aligned with the "Horde" [color=darkred]faction, or vice versa. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may update World of Warcraft with authorized patches and updates distributed by Blizzard, and use authorized Third Party User Interfaces as set forth in Section 13(g), below.
Now, we move to Section 13(g):
G. The use of any "user interface" other than the user interface that is included in the World of Warcraft Software ("Third Party User Interface") is not recommended by Blizzard Entertainment, and you hereby agree to indemnify and hold harmless Blizzard Entertainment from all claims, damages, and other losses which may arise from your use of a Third Party User Interface. At such time that Blizzard elects to post a list of approved Third-Party User Interfaces on its website, you agree that you will use only those Third-Party User Interfaces approved by Blizzard, and that you will use no other Third-Party User Interfaces in connection with World of Warcraft.
After analyzing these two sections, it can be clearly seen that any 3rd party program not affiliated with or approved by Blizzard Software cannot be legally used with World of Warcraft. The World of Warcraft "experience" can be defined as the use of the software within the legal scope of the Terms of Use set down by Blizzard Software at the above given link. Any 3rd Party Program will alter the World of Warcraft "experience", which is clearly in violation of Section C (Given Above) stated in the World of Warcraft Terms of Use agreement.
In response to your "lack of privacy" argument, I would like to state Section 13(E) of the Terms of Use Agreement:
E. In order to assist Blizzard Entertainment to police users who may use "hacks," or "cheats" to gain an advantage over other players, you acknowledge that Blizzard Entertainment shall have the right to obtain certain information from your computer and its component parts, including your computer's random access memory, video card, central processing unit, and storage devices. This information will only be used for the purpose of identifying "cheaters," and for no other reason.
This section of the Terms of Use agreement clearly states that by accepting the Terms of Use, you waive the right to certain privacies previously given as a citizen of whatever country you reside in. Once you click the "accept" button, those privacies are waved any time you play WoW.
Now, I'd like to state another law you're breaking, by showing you Section 11 of the WoW Terms of Use:
All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to World of Warcraft (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into World of Warcraft, transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games played on World of Warcraft, and the World of Warcraft client and server software) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. World of Warcraft is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions, and other laws. All rights are reserved. World of Warcraft may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard Entertainment's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.
Just in case you don't know, China is under a US copyright convention, therefore you have to follow the United States copyright laws.
Oh, but I think there's more.
I'd like to state my final point. This is Section 8 of the WoW EULA, entitled "Selling of Items".
Remember, at the outset of these Terms of Use, where we discussed how you were "licensed" the right to use World of Warcraft, and that your license was "limited"? Well, here is one of the more important areas where these license limitations come into effect. Note that Blizzard Entertainment either owns, or has exclusively licensed, all of the content which appears in World of Warcraft. Therefore, no one has the right to "sell" Blizzard Entertainment's content, except Blizzard Entertainment! So Blizzard Entertainment does not recognize any property claims outside of World of Warcraft or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything related to World of Warcraft. Accordingly, you may not sell items for "real" money or exchange items outside of World of Warcraft.
In lamen's terms, getting lots of gold on your own is legal. Gold selling is quite the contrary. By selling gold, you're literally selling a piece of programming designed by Blizzard Software, and the last time I checked, nobody other than Blizzard Software owns that piece of code (And yes, even though to you, that 10, 20 or maybe even 100 gold seems like a metaphysical object, it was still created by an automated program designed by someone at blizzard, which owns that program, and any extraneous code created by it).
You really wanna fight this? Take it to court. Everything's laid here in stone and Blizzard has you pinned on all points. I dare you.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
IT IS CHEATING, IT IS ILLEGAL.
Since you cannot understand simple fact. This is NOT OPINION. It is a declaration of FACT.
The link is: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html. I have provided the exact phrase that mentions our rights on our own intellectual property(this includes gold, accounts, characters, etc.).
11. Ownership.
All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to World of Warcraft (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogue, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, "applets" incorporated into World of Warcraft, transcripts of the chat rooms, character profile information, recordings of games played on World of Warcraft, and the World of Warcraft client and server software) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. World of Warcraft is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions, and other laws. All rights are reserved. World of Warcraft may contain certain licensed materials, and Blizzard Entertainment's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.
Another one:
[edit] From the Forums:
Even other countries are starting to take action against this deplorable practice:
VinaGame now operates five games: Vo Lam Truyen Ky (Fighter Stories / Sworadsman), Ragnarok Online, Cuu Long Tranh Ba (9 Dragons’ Fights), and the new Wind God’s Fights.
At the same time, Ragnarok Online has been shut down in Ho Chi Minh City for not implementing government required time limits and restrictions on virtual item trading / Real Money Transactions (RMT), as reported in VietNamNet. Swordsman has lost half of its clientèle since the time restrictions have been enforced, according to Than Nien Daily. VinaGame is concerned that these restrictions on playing time and virtual item trading may result in the failure of the games and the company.
No, what was notable was that a World of Warcraft account is worth more than a stolen credit card with authentication information. A stolen credit card with verification information is typically worth $6. A stolen WoW account is worth $10, potentially much more depending on the assets in the account.
Let's repeat that:
Theres more games out there than just WoW. When we say in a pub forum that is it cheating to sell virtual gold (Which doesn tjust mean gold in WoW but it also says in ONLINE GAMES, note GAMES which seems to be something that doesnt make sense TO YOU, you might wanna do some research, might i direct you to the left panel of the screen, those are other mmo's which have CUrrency which may or may not be GOld but do have currency or other items which may be bought through ebay, paypal cash or check.
SO PLEASE before you bring up ONLY blizzard terms, think about your post. 1 game doesnt state for all.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Person B: Has a job, works 8-10 hours a day, only plays a couple of hours a week.
Person B decides to take money that he earned while Person A was farming gold in game and decides to buy the gold instead. Both people invested time, but while Person A did it playing a computer game, Person B has a regular income and decides that he wants to transform this time investment into ingame-money.
Difference is that Person B has a regular job that allows him to decide if the invested time will translate into a new car, home cinema, nice lingerie for his girlfriend or virtual currency, while Person does not have this choice (unless he decides to become a gold seller...^^).
So, bottom line - to each his own. Buying gold does not have to be a bad thing. Thats how our society works, or am I only allowed to eat potatoes if I grew them in my backyard?
The above posters were using one example. It happens to be the biggest example currently out there. There is not enough space on these forums to go into detail on ALL of the MMOGs out there. Therefore, you limit your examples to a choice few (or in this case one).
I have done some research on this. The only top line game that I have been able to find that RMT are not against the EULA (and hence a breach of contract and illegal) is Second Life. What other top tier game(s) allows RMT? (And yes, the definition of "top tier game" is not defined intentionally)
The case has been made above against RMT in MMOGs using specific examples. I would challenge you to do the same. What games allow RMTs? Do any of those games on the left panel allow RMTs? Throwing general statements and accusations out there without anything to back them up doesn't do anybody any good and lends itself to a flame war (as I am sure that this statement does).
I can appreciate your opinion. And I, for the most part agree. I believe 100% that you should be able to do what you want without any interference. UNTIL that interferes with somebody else doing what the they want. There have been any number of articles, tv shows, news reports, blogs, podcasts, etc, etc, etc that have gone into the actual negative effect RMT's have on a game. I wont reiterate here what (most) everybody these forums has already read/listened to/watched. RMTs (through gold farming/selling/buying etc) negatively impact the games and the players that are using the service legitimately (ie following the EULA).
I would love to agree with you that the gold sellers/buyers can do what they want, but the bottom line is that it ruins the games for legitimate players. And they don't have the right to do that. You may eat your potatoes out of your backyard or the ones you buy at the market. You may not go out and buy them from somebody who has stolen those potatoes from the farmer.
1.) It's almost always against a game's terms of service. That means you're not allowed to do it.
2.) People play MMO's to escape real life. When you log-in, you have equal opportunity as everyone else. The secondary market kills that. The people with money to throw around get it easier, and the people that don't know it happens all the time. Maybe it's just me, but I think people who pay $15 a month from a limited budget deserve to be equal to people who have very little to worry about in RL.
I don't care much about the first reason ( God knows my old guild violated the TOS in WoW all the time with account sharing). But the second reason is something I feel everyone should care about. There's so much injustice in the world. Some people work two jobs their entire life, and yet some others never even have to lift a finger.
I know it's just a game, but I would like to believe that that kind of unfairness doesn't exist in the world of MMORPG's.
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU?
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU?
Of course you can say that you work a real job, support your family AND is able to play without buying the virtual gold. Good for you, but why does others buying in-game gold matters to YOU? Do you think that since you are able to do it so others must be able to do it?
Sure, view it from the law and copyright that buying/selling gold is in fact illegal, but does that stop people? WHY doesn't it stop people from buying/selling virtual gold? Is it because the people who buy/sell is trying to break the laws for the sake of money? Is it because that some people just think game as another investment? Is it because that they have the choice all along? What does it mean to click the I AGREE on the ToS and EULA?
There are so many questions that can be asked to see where the REAL problem lies. The virtual gold selling/buying is not just the problem, but a result to some of the underlying issues in game designs AND the way laws are applied in each case.
All that aside, can you say it honestly that you have NEVER lie/cheat in ANY game, whether is MMO or not? Because if you want to mention about being cheater, then let's get to the bottom. Is there ANYONE who has never cheated in anything in life? And HOW would you prove it?
Like I said, I'm NOT for virtual gold selling/buying, but I would like to get to the bottom of the issue, not just the surface issue. So I say let the gamers choose on their own. If they decided to use their own money and violating the rules, and are found, that's their own fault. But they are NOT subject to YOUR judgment, but the game company's. If they are lucky and were never found out, so what? Do you think that since you don't do it then that put you on a higher moral standard than others? Not really, but if you don't think it's right, you can try to persuade those around you to stop, but you can't MAKE them. It's their decision.
And one final thing. IF the law works, WHY is there still illegal drugs in this nation? If the law should make everything right, then why is there still a flow of illegal drugs everywhere? That's more or less something to think about.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Person A: student, unemployed, or in general lots of time on his hands: Spends countless hours playing a computer game to get certain items, farm gold, you name it
Person B: owns a liquor store, works 12 hours a day, works hard for the money and invests in his future
Person A, being that he spends all his time playing video games, has no money, so he goes to Person B's liquor store and robs him of several cases of liquor to sell to his friends. Both people invested time, but while Person A did it playing a computer game, Person B has a regular income and is screwed because some loser without a job robbed him.
So, bottom line - IT'S ILLEGAL!!
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
It can also become apparent in pve games if there is a player-based economy. Rare/popular items drastically shoot up in price when people start buying gold. The average joe can't afford these items through normal farming, and the "everyone does it anyway"/"you can't progress without buying gold" mentality sets in.
You effectively split the consumer base into two completely different categories; those who have infinite funds regardless of time played, and those who don't. Obviously everyone will price their items according to the richer part.
1) It alters the economy. Some say it destroys the economy. If you don't buy gold, you can't afford to buy in game items from other players.
2) It alters the drop rate of rare/expensive items for the legitimate player. There are farmers that camp spots/areas in order to get that rare drop and sell it for real money. Hence the legitimate player can't get the drop.
3) Legitimate players are run out of areas by gold farmers so that the farmers have exclusive access to the rare drop sites. Chaining monsters to attack legitimate players is a common tactic. PVPing is another.
4) Game companies spend resources (time, money, etc) on preventing/stopping gold farmers. These resources could/should be going into making the game better.
That is why it matters to me. Yes, I am the one getting cheated. That is how it affects me.
Those are the big four that come to mind immediately. There have been any number of professional articles/reports done on gold farming and the negative impact on the industry as a whole and the player as an individual.
If the PvP game is based on character skills, and that gears doesn't matter at all, or just very little, then this wouldn't be the case. And like I said, it's more of the game design issue that got expand into the virtual gold selling/buying issue.
It can also become apparent in pve games if there is a player-based economy. Rare/popular items drastically shoot up in price when people start buying gold. The average joe can't afford these items through normal farming, and the "everyone does it anyway"/"you can't progress without buying gold" mentality sets in.
You effectively split the consumer base into two completely different categories; those who have infinite funds regardless of time played, and those who don't. Obviously everyone will price their items according to the richer part.
This could be solve with less focus on gear/items, and more on character development. But so far, the MOST games that have very active virtual gold selling/buying issues are the ones that has more gear/item dependent. That should tell you something already...
To those who tries to answer the questions I asked:
I'm just trying to help people to see that it is more than just the virtual gold problem, but the whole design of the game that ALLOWS the virtual gold trading to be active and the norm of these games.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)