Yes, this t20 guy cheated at his own game, he's pathetic and sad to do so... but a million and 1 threads about it is just as annoying, imo.
And it's pathetic that he wasn't fired for it as well.
While I don't think that we needed this particular thread, whenever someone asks if they should play EVE, the whole T20 thing should come up at least for the next few months. Devs cheating in a single server sandbox game is quite relevant to someone deciding if EVE is where they would like to spend their time and money.
One more thing that's not a direct reply to iCeh. If it's old news to you, or you don't want to hear about it anymore, don't read the thread. It was very clear what this thread was about. No one forced you to read it.
I've been playing a year and a half and I only found out this week. How odd, the cheating was uncovered three months ago and it is . . . old news? Interesting also that none of CCPs defenders are willing to address this single important question: is it reasonable to think it is coincidence that the corp that benefited from the cheating happens to be the same corp that reigns supreme in the game? In any case, my concern is that people considering the game be aware of these issues. As I said, caveat emptor.
The reason people are saying it's old news, is because it's been posted and discussed a million times on these forums. So, to most people, it's old.
Yes, this t20 guy cheated at his own game, he's pathetic and sad to do so... but a million and 1 threads about it is just as annoying, imo. Better have fun, no point in mourning about it.
I had not heard about this so I would not call this thread useless. But I do not regularly visit the EVE forums except when it seems to generate inordinate loyalty by the players. This is the first time I've seen cracks in that loyalty.
This incident, along with others I've heard of backstabbing/espionage practices by players in game, has insured that I will not listen to those posters constantly calling out for me to try this game.
If there is one thing I cannot stand it is gaming companies who forget that they are running a business, not some private playground for their employees to get their jollies at the expense of their customers.
I had not heard about this so I would not call this thread useless. But I do not regularly visit the EVE forums except when it seems to generate inordinate loyalty by the players. This is the first time I've seen cracks in that loyalty. This incident, along with others I've heard of backstabbing/espionage practices by players in game, has insured that I will not listen to those posters constantly calling out for me to try this game. If there is one thing I cannot stand it is gaming companies who forget that they are running a business, not some private playground for their employees to get their jollies at the expense of their customers.
If you don't read the forums, you won't even notice. That much effect it has on gameplay.
Great way to address the problem, burying your head in the sand and pretending it never happened or won't affect you.
Given a choice between playing Eve Online for free or having to walk over hot coals wearing a duck contume. I'd walk over the coals and quack my head off.
It is a dead horse...everyone pretty much is aware of the fact (at least on these forums) that there were some incidents of cheating by the Devs at CCP. You're options are pretty simple...
1) Ignore it, probably won't affect you anyways unless you are part of the major corporation wars
2) Quit/don't play the game. No one is making you.... lots of other games out there.
3) Join the Band of Brothers if winning is that important to you....
See, that wasn't hard....
Finally someone with some sense. It's getting really tiresome so do what Kyleran suggested and move on finally.
I chose option number 2. And I've warned other people to avoid playing EVE due to their attitude on DEV cheating.
Jayheld9 - "Be warned: oldest news ever!" It's THREE MONTHS OLD! LOL. Perhaps the GM cheating is old, but the dev cheating is quite new. Maybe the CEO of CCP will be next, seems like we're moving up the chain.
Regarding the effect on gameplay being so small it cannot be noticed, that is unfortunately a matter for debate. BoB and it's allies are currently taking over Fade, Deklein and Branch. That's ten percent of the 0.0 (lucrative) real estate in the game. Nobody seems to be able to beat them, and many have tried. Now, is that coincidence that they are doing so well? If it's not just coincidence (which would mean the cheating was a lot worse than CCP admitted), then you just can't credibly state that the cheating has no effect on the average player. Because eventually the average player IS going to want to venture out into 0.0 space, which BoB is now taking over at an astonishing rate.
We can debate whether or not this should matter to a prospective player. However, I don't think we should be debating about whether prospective players ought to be made aware of this issue. I say keep the truth out there, and let people decide on their own. But informed choices can only be made in the presence of information. This thread provides that information, and I hope readers will pass it along.
Jayheld9 - "Be warned: oldest news ever!" It's THREE MONTHS OLD! LOL. Perhaps the GM cheating is old, but the dev cheating is quite new. Maybe the CEO of CCP will be next, seems like we're moving up the chain. Regarding the effect on gameplay being so small it cannot be noticed, that is unfortunately a matter for debate. BoB and it's allies are currently taking over Fade, Deklein and Branch. That's ten percent of the 0.0 (lucrative) real estate in the game. Nobody seems to be able to beat them, and many have tried. Now, is that coincidence that they are doing so well? If it's not just coincidence (which would mean the cheating was a lot worse than CCP admitted), then you just can't credibly state that the cheating has no effect on the average player. Because eventually the average player IS going to want to venture out into 0.0 space, which BoB is now taking over at an astonishing rate. We can debate whether or not this should matter to a prospective player. However, I don't think we should be debating about whether prospective players ought to be made aware of this issue. I say keep the truth out there, and let people decide on their own. But informed choices can only be made in the presence of information. This thread provides that information, and I hope readers will pass it along.
The problem is you get one sided questions where the only two answers presented are the same with a different slant. Now the Reason the BoB and it's Allied forces are doing so well against the coalition may not have anything to do with cheating. It could be the BoB and its various "vassel" corps and alliances actually work and communicate together while the Various coalition forces are making numerous and mostly uncordinated splinter attacks. When one attack gets in trouble they don't reinforce or help the other. Thier victories consist of POS Spamming and running.
While I may agree that T20 was a idiot as I have siad before, and again I agree that his ass should have been fired(note when it was discovered not after he was already punished). The fact is that the advantage gained by the BPOs were simply not significant enough to warrant the downfall of BoB. If anything the Coalition forces initial offensives just woke the sleeping dragon. Now two of the best PvP alliances MC and BoB are pushing both north and south along the rim taking appart the alliances one by one. big surprise that you don't see alot of cooperation amoung the Coalition forces to defend thier collective territory.
Now I'm all fine with giving new players all the information to make a decision about it, but don't do it with a Slant, and if your going to pose a question do me a favor and don't use "entrapment" style questions where regardless of the answer it still shows your right.
Great way to address the problem, burying your head in the sand and pretending it never happened or won't affect you.
That's because it doesn't affect me.
You seem to be telling people what the Dev did, rather than telling us how it affected you... please, do tell.
Personally, I do everything that I've always done, and so does everyone else that I play EVE with.
Edit: To the guy that wondered why the Dev wasn't fired; I have absolutely no idea why he wasn't. I didn't bother following up some of the excuses that were floating about. But that Dev doesn't deserve his job, I won't argue about that!
Edit 2: It's a game! Funny how people are more upset about a game, rather than starving people in 3rd world countries and all that (omfg! I sound like me granny!). So, until you can tell me something you've done that doesn't involve burying your head in the sand, don't tell me not to keep mine there.
I've been playing a year and a half and I only found out this week. How odd, the cheating was uncovered three months ago and it is . . . old news? Interesting also that none of CCPs defenders are willing to address this single important question: is it reasonable to think it is coincidence that the corp that benefited from the cheating happens to be the same corp that reigns supreme in the game? In any case, my concern is that people considering the game be aware of these issues. As I said, caveat emptor.
You proved my point.... you were playing the game, and the net effect of this on you was so small you had no idea it even happened....
and yes, in the gaming world...3 months ago is old news.. ancient in fact.... you'd be surprised how many threads/posts here and elsewhere (including the official EvE forums) were devoted to this subject.
And there's no evidence that cheating not withstanding that BOB wouldn't be kicking everyone's arses over there anyways... from what i understand they are well organized and control alot of weath in the game...pretty good forumla's for success I'm thinking...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can't be arsed to read the this topic from begining to end to be honest. Stupid things like that happend and will happen in every MMO. The only reasons something like this hasn't been revealed on WOW is that (a) the devs are too smart to actually play a mindless leveling game, and (b) that dude practicing.. um... self manipulation on youtube to a female elf avatar stole every , media minute that any intelligent god would allow.
this is kind of old news, but its still relevant. The two biggest problems is that its still happening and CCP is trying to gag anyone talking about it......
Its pretty obvious you never admit to doing more than you are caught doing, has Dev's admitted to doing more than they were caught doing, nope.....what are the chances that this was an isolated incident - 0%, and that many other Dev's and GM's aren't also cheating...100% chance they are also cheating......
If you steal something from someone, then you should be punished....but if everyone is stealing, then the incentive to punish the wrongdoer isn't as important because everyone is doing it.....this is the case with CCP, everyone is cheating/stealing....so what is the point of punishing anyone?
The only reason that everyone wants Band of Dev's destroyed is because of their cheating status.....the fact that they are lasting this long is because of their cheating status....
I'd strongly suggest anyone who is interested in this game to do some research and find out for yourself how corrupt CCP really is...
========================== The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
this is kind of old news, but its still relevant. The two biggest problems is that its still happening and CCP is trying to gag anyone talking about it...... Its pretty obvious you never admit to doing more than you are caught doing, has Dev's admitted to doing more than they were caught doing, nope.....what are the chances that this was an isolated incident - 0%, and that many other Dev's and GM's aren't also cheating...100% chance they are also cheating...... If you steal something from someone, then you should be punished....but if everyone is stealing, then the incentive to punish the wrongdoer isn't as important because everyone is doing it.....this is the case with CCP, everyone is cheating/stealing....so what is the point of punishing anyone? The only reason that everyone wants Band of Dev's destroyed is because of their cheating status.....the fact that they are lasting this long is because of their cheating status.... I'd strongly suggest anyone who is interested in this game to do some research and find out for yourself how corrupt CCP really is...
Well in that matter, proof or STFU, and dont bring Kugutsumen X-files for this.
I think CCP isn't much alone with cheating, but it wont hit the community of other games as much as in EVEs single Server and Gamearchitecture. In case of BoB winning over alliance forces, they are better then the others. I am not in BoB myself, far from that, but i have still a lot contact throughout EVE talking with a lot of people beside having seen MC in action on the receiving side.
The cheat there was on personal lvl and even if a dev would spawn several billions on his account and spend it, it wouldnt be a promil on the generated and destructed amount of money and assets in general.
On the other side there are still enough unfixed and unsolved other problems that favor some or all other alliances that it really comes down to the personal and corporated skill.
I've been asked how it changed my own gameplay. Well, my corp was in Fade. Fade fell to BoB. Then Deklein. And now MC (A BoB ally) is hitting Branch hard. Just today I was in Branch, saw lots of MC (BoB ally) ships and few D2 (BoB enemy) ships. In fact, it was easily 30:1. That ratio makes me wonder whether the cheating has had a secondary effect, in other words have BoB enemies been leaving the game while BoB and their allies tend to stay with the game? Impossible for me to know. However, I can say that the suggestion put forth earlier, that if I don't like it I just join BoB, is not possible. BoB would NEVER take a former D2 ally. Too much risk.
The fact is, I DON'T KNOW whether the cheating has changed my gameplay. All I can go on is what I am observing. I see that BoB is dominating. I am having trouble finding places in 0.0 where I can exist. I am seeing fewer players even trying anymore to defend against BoB. Now, IF CCP is telling the truth, that the cheating was confined to only a few tech II BPOs, then the cheating isn't changing my gameplay. But my own corpmembers have noticed troubling things. For example, BoB seemed to start out with the most profitable areas in 0.0. There's many other examples, some already posted in this thread.
Now, I would LOVE to know things such as (1) how many tech II BPOs exist in total in the game, and how many of these belong to BoB? (2) how many POSs in total exist, and how many of these belong to BoB? (3) How many players have quit as a result of the cheating, and what percentage of those players were in D2 or other anti-BoB alliances? (4) How many Devs play the game (they are still permitted to do so), and how long have they played, and in what alliances are they playing? But CCP ain't answering those questions. If ownership of POSs or BPOs is grossly unbalanced toward BoB, it would be powerful circumstancial evidence that the cheating is much more widespread than admitted.
(I have been told that it is possible to look up how many POSs are owned by particular corporations, and that BoB owns a staggering number compared to other corporations. However, I have not figured out how to access that information).
What I can say for sure is that I do NOT believe CCP when they say that the dev did not share gameplay secrets with BoB. Think hard about that for a moment. The man risked his company's reputation to give very rare items to his corp via a blatant cheat. Is it really credible to believe him when he admits he did that, but denies that he gave information?
BoB pilots appear to have unlimited funds. Their tactics seem to have less to do with cooperation and more to do with the fact that once their ship is destroyed, they jump right back into battle with an equally impressive ship and setup. Meanwhile, I'm flying in a ship that took me months to afford, and one that I cannot easily replace . . . where did BoB get all those resources?
Well, IF the cheating was more widespread than admitted, then we know where they got rhe resources. But there's just no way to be sure. What I DO know for sure is that I do NOT trust CCP. I can see the unbalanced gameplay. And I'm not paying for it after the recent revelations regarding dev cheating.
I've been asked how it changed my own gameplay. Well, my corp was in Fade. Fade fell to BoB. Then Deklein. And now MC (A BoB ally) is hitting Branch hard. Just today I was in Branch, saw lots of MC (BoB ally) ships and few D2 (BoB enemy) ships. In fact, it was easily 30:1. The fact is, I DON'T KNOW whether the cheating has changed my gameplay. All I can go on is what I am observing. I see that BoB is dominating. I am having trouble finding places in 0.0 where I can exist. I am seeing fewer players even trying anymore to defend against BoB. Now, IF CCP is telling the truth, that the cheating was confined to only a few tech II BPOs, then the cheating isn't changing my gameplay. But my own corpmembers have noticed troubling things. For example, BoB seemed to start out with the most profitable areas in 0.0. There's many other examples, some already posted in this thread. Now, I would LOVE to know things such as (1) how many tech II BPOs exist in total in the game, and how many of these belong to BoB? (2) how many POSs in total exist, and how many of these belong to BoB? (3) How many players have quit as a result of the cheating, and what percentage of those players were in D2 or other anti-BoB alliances? (4) How many Devs play the game (they are still permitted to do so), and how long have they played, and in what alliances are they playing? But CCP ain't answering those questions. If ownership of POSs or BPOs is grossly unbalanced toward BoB, it would be powerful circumstancial evidence that the cheating is much more widespread than admitted. (I have been told that it is possible to look up how many POSs are owned by particular corporations, and that BoB owns a staggering number compared to other corporations. However, I have not figured out how to access that information). What I can say for sure is that I do NOT believe CCP when they say that the dev did not share gameplay secrets with BoB. Think hard about that for a moment. The man risked his company's reputation to give very rare items to his corp via a blatant cheat. Is it really credible to believe him when he admits he did that, but denies that he gave information? BoB pilots appear to have unlimited funds. Their tactics seem to have less to do with cooperation and more to do with the fact that once their ship is destroyed, they jump right back into battle with an equally impressive ship and setup. Meanwhile, I'm flying in a ship that took me months to afford, and one that I cannot easily replace . . . where did BoB get all those resources? Well, IF the cheating was more widespread than admitted, then we know where they got rhe resources. But there's just no way to be sure. What I DO know for sure is that I do NOT trust CCP. I can see the unbalanced gameplay. And I'm not paying for it after the recent revelations regarding dev cheating.
That was a well thought out post that puts in print what many of the players left in EVE are thinking.
Those considerations were enough for me to leave EVE for good.
I've been asked how it changed my own gameplay. Well, my corp was in Fade. Fade fell to BoB. Then Deklein. And now MC (A BoB ally) is hitting Branch hard. Just today I was in Branch, saw lots of MC (BoB ally) ships and few D2 (BoB enemy) ships. In fact, it was easily 30:1. That ratio makes me wonder whether the cheating has had a secondary effect, in other words have BoB enemies been leaving the game while BoB and their allies tend to stay with the game? Impossible for me to know. However, I can say that the suggestion put forth earlier, that if I don't like it I just join BoB, is not possible. BoB would NEVER take a former D2 ally. Too much risk. The fact is, I DON'T KNOW whether the cheating has changed my gameplay. All I can go on is what I am observing. I see that BoB is dominating. I am having trouble finding places in 0.0 where I can exist. I am seeing fewer players even trying anymore to defend against BoB. Now, IF CCP is telling the truth, that the cheating was confined to only a few tech II BPOs, then the cheating isn't changing my gameplay. But my own corpmembers have noticed troubling things. For example, BoB seemed to start out with the most profitable areas in 0.0. There's many other examples, some already posted in this thread. Now, I would LOVE to know things such as (1) how many tech II BPOs exist in total in the game, and how many of these belong to BoB? (2) how many POSs in total exist, and how many of these belong to BoB? (3) How many players have quit as a result of the cheating, and what percentage of those players were in D2 or other anti-BoB alliances? (4) How many Devs play the game (they are still permitted to do so), and how long have they played, and in what alliances are they playing? But CCP ain't answering those questions. If ownership of POSs or BPOs is grossly unbalanced toward BoB, it would be powerful circumstancial evidence that the cheating is much more widespread than admitted. (I have been told that it is possible to look up how many POSs are owned by particular corporations, and that BoB owns a staggering number compared to other corporations. However, I have not figured out how to access that information). What I can say for sure is that I do NOT believe CCP when they say that the dev did not share gameplay secrets with BoB. Think hard about that for a moment. The man risked his company's reputation to give very rare items to his corp via a blatant cheat. Is it really credible to believe him when he admits he did that, but denies that he gave information? BoB pilots appear to have unlimited funds. Their tactics seem to have less to do with cooperation and more to do with the fact that once their ship is destroyed, they jump right back into battle with an equally impressive ship and setup. Meanwhile, I'm flying in a ship that took me months to afford, and one that I cannot easily replace . . . where did BoB get all those resources? Well, IF the cheating was more widespread than admitted, then we know where they got rhe resources. But there's just no way to be sure. What I DO know for sure is that I do NOT trust CCP. I can see the unbalanced gameplay. And I'm not paying for it after the recent revelations regarding dev cheating.
That one is easy to answer, at least from my point of view. Is not really that impressive. One individual can easily own several ships and even a POS without the back up of a Corp. So if you join up many self sufficient individuals in a Corp, you will have one superb finances.
I do own up to 6 of one type of ship fitted all the same in case I need them. Is just a matter of insuring before I go out the door. Tech 1 and Tech 2 ships. Example would be, I have 6 Ospreys in 3 systems (2 per system) with a mining setup. You can say that an Osprey is not as expensive as other ships, true, but yet again is just an example.
To SWGLover, not to be rude... but you must consider going back to SWG and leave us.
I've been asked how it changed my own gameplay. Well, my corp was in Fade. Fade fell to BoB. Then Deklein. And now MC (A BoB ally) is hitting Branch hard. Just today I was in Branch, saw lots of MC (BoB ally) ships and few D2 (BoB enemy) ships. In fact, it was easily 30:1. That ratio makes me wonder whether the cheating has had a secondary effect, in other words have BoB enemies been leaving the game while BoB and their allies tend to stay with the game? Impossible for me to know. However, I can say that the suggestion put forth earlier, that if I don't like it I just join BoB, is not possible. BoB would NEVER take a former D2 ally. Too much risk. The fact is, I DON'T KNOW whether the cheating has changed my gameplay. All I can go on is what I am observing. I see that BoB is dominating. I am having trouble finding places in 0.0 where I can exist. I am seeing fewer players even trying anymore to defend against BoB. Now, IF CCP is telling the truth, that the cheating was confined to only a few tech II BPOs, then the cheating isn't changing my gameplay. But my own corpmembers have noticed troubling things. For example, BoB seemed to start out with the most profitable areas in 0.0. There's many other examples, some already posted in this thread. Now, I would LOVE to know things such as (1) how many tech II BPOs exist in total in the game, and how many of these belong to BoB? (2) how many POSs in total exist, and how many of these belong to BoB? (3) How many players have quit as a result of the cheating, and what percentage of those players were in D2 or other anti-BoB alliances? (4) How many Devs play the game (they are still permitted to do so), and how long have they played, and in what alliances are they playing? But CCP ain't answering those questions. If ownership of POSs or BPOs is grossly unbalanced toward BoB, it would be powerful circumstancial evidence that the cheating is much more widespread than admitted. (I have been told that it is possible to look up how many POSs are owned by particular corporations, and that BoB owns a staggering number compared to other corporations. However, I have not figured out how to access that information). What I can say for sure is that I do NOT believe CCP when they say that the dev did not share gameplay secrets with BoB. Think hard about that for a moment. The man risked his company's reputation to give very rare items to his corp via a blatant cheat. Is it really credible to believe him when he admits he did that, but denies that he gave information? BoB pilots appear to have unlimited funds. Their tactics seem to have less to do with cooperation and more to do with the fact that once their ship is destroyed, they jump right back into battle with an equally impressive ship and setup. Meanwhile, I'm flying in a ship that took me months to afford, and one that I cannot easily replace . . . where did BoB get all those resources? Well, IF the cheating was more widespread than admitted, then we know where they got rhe resources. But there's just no way to be sure. What I DO know for sure is that I do NOT trust CCP. I can see the unbalanced gameplay. And I'm not paying for it after the recent revelations regarding dev cheating.
i'd like to thank you for spending time writing this up its well written. I still disagree with you but at least the arguments can be a little clearer and on point. I like the information that you'd like to have, though I think the questions need to be specified a bit more or else it will skew the results.
1st the t2 BPOs, Should be 20 per module and 8 per Ship once the lottery has burnt itself out, While how many BoB has compared to the rest I think it would be grossly inadequte for proving anything. The real information would be to determine the path of ownership for the BPOs. Did they gain them through the lottery, purchasing off of auctions, players joining the alliance, Loot from destroyed ships? That would be a better indication of cheating then just how many they own. I'd be curious just how many BPOs go up for sale after they were recieved by the "winner"
2nd POSes, not sure how this would help but for the most part BoB itself does not run most of the POSes, thier numerous vassel alliances and corps handle the basic Command and Control for the areas they are assigned.
3rd number of players that have quit. would be nice but the possiblities of misinformation is great. I know when I got burn out running my first corp we got war decced which was the last straw. I put the reason I quit was I believe "the stupid War dec system" but the real reason was just plain burn out. I do not doubt that people have quit, though I think it would balance out over a majority of EVE's population. There have been several BoB friendly players that also left either BoB or the game from the stigma that was caused by the incident.
4th How many devs play the game. Hopefully all of them, though I hope they spread them selves out a bit more. and that they keep an eye on thier activities.
The biggest problem is the potential for misinterpertaion of the data. Having a large quanity of assets does not indicate cheating or in this case that there was more cheating then what was admitted to. If we fail to consider all possiblities then you may end up assuming that anyone who is succeful cheats. I will add the the Hierarchal command system BoB sets up amoung the 20+ alliances that live and operate in thier Control of influence does allow them to better direct thier forces. Something that the Coallition seems to be lacking. Apart of this structure is a regulated economy which helps curtail excessive pricing on certain ships. Along with the large amount of industrial backing does allow for he production of a large warmachine.
this is a dead horse. do we really have to beat it more?
No... <------- This is a dead horse and the OP with a club.
Quote:
this is kind of old news, but its still relevant. The two biggest problems is that its still happening and CCP is trying to gag anyone talking about it......
Its pretty obvious you never admit to doing more than you are caught doing, has Dev's admitted to doing more than they were caught doing, nope.....what are the chances that this was an isolated incident - 0%, and that many other Dev's and GM's aren't also cheating...100% chance they are also cheating......
If you steal something from someone, then you should be punished....but if everyone is stealing, then the incentive to punish the wrongdoer isn't as important because everyone is doing it.....this is the case with CCP, everyone is cheating/stealing....so what is the point of punishing anyone?
The only reason that everyone wants Band of Dev's destroyed is because of their cheating status.....the fact that they are lasting this long is because of their cheating status....
I'd strongly suggest anyone who is interested in this game to do some research and find out for yourself how corrupt CCP really is...
Also keep in mind that this has been going on from day one. The question everyone has to ask themselves is does the fact that the devs are playing and sometimes cheating bother you enough to not play. While these types of things to affect everyone in the game to a some degree, is it enough for you to say "thats all i can stands cause I cant stands no more" (in popeye's voice).
For me personally I have quit 5 times now and had come back 4 time and depending on how soon TR will be out will problebly be back in a few months. Just canceled two account, one ends on the 19th and one june 7th so am setting some 48 day tranings. I am not quitting this time over this incedent becuse in the last four years of playing EVE I have personally see worse. I am quitting because of being lied to again (re-uped after seeing an interview where CCP said the RE was going to be in Kali) about RE and after giving invention a fair chance (5 months and 3.8bil isk invested) I have had enough, though if the devs did actually activate RE (it is in game) I would be back that day.
Now while I do agree that it is important to remember the past acts to try and limit this type of actions, constantly rehashing the same incedent is getting old. And besides if you are playing the game and actually look in the right places you will see new stuff to bring up, but I'm not going to go there.
Sorry I can't agree with the notion that this is a dead subject, CCP got caught on those instances it doesn't mean that they were the only ones. Just remember that if we don't learn from history we're doomed to repeat it, people need to be aware and conscious of what the employees of this company have done in the past and that they are equally capable of doing so again. In my opinion this should be a stickied thread.
This is so yesterdays news. Its not stickied because these forums are meant to encourage to play the game, not follow someones hatered for the game. If you hate the game that much, then don't play. I hate people who try force their opinion onto someone else.
Aslo if you really had the best interest of the people at heart, then you would have been so kind enough to put down all the facts. For example, on how CCP caught the cheater way before the public uncovered it, and punished him for it. Over reactions like this is a good example to why they choose not release this information. Btw, did i mention the part where they apologized?
You guys keep throwing this shit in peoples faces, and people get sick of it. This why the coaltion is losing. They based their entire "Crusade" on assumptions. I can't wait til BoB and its Allies wipe you cry-babies off the map.
Enjoy Empire Space. Because its going to be your last resort.
WoW! Thanx for helping me avoid geting involved in a game where the developers are cheating! I almost downloaded and checked this out. I know people will tell me that it's over and done with, but if it can happen onc3e, it can happen again.
WoW! Thanx for helping me avoid geting involved in a game where the developers are cheating! I almost downloaded and checked this out. I know people will tell me that it's over and done with, but if it can happen onc3e, it can happen again.
Riight.
I'm pretty sure it happens at least once in every single MMO/MMORPG that has EVER been released.
EVE is not anymore special than WOW, EQ1, EQ2, V:SoH, DAoC and so on...
Comments
While I don't think that we needed this particular thread, whenever someone asks if they should play EVE, the whole T20 thing should come up at least for the next few months. Devs cheating in a single server sandbox game is quite relevant to someone deciding if EVE is where they would like to spend their time and money.
One more thing that's not a direct reply to iCeh. If it's old news to you, or you don't want to hear about it anymore, don't read the thread. It was very clear what this thread was about. No one forced you to read it.
Yes, this t20 guy cheated at his own game, he's pathetic and sad to do so... but a million and 1 threads about it is just as annoying, imo. Better have fun, no point in mourning about it.
I had not heard about this so I would not call this thread useless. But I do not regularly visit the EVE forums except when it seems to generate inordinate loyalty by the players. This is the first time I've seen cracks in that loyalty.
This incident, along with others I've heard of backstabbing/espionage practices by players in game, has insured that I will not listen to those posters constantly calling out for me to try this game.
If there is one thing I cannot stand it is gaming companies who forget that they are running a business, not some private playground for their employees to get their jollies at the expense of their customers.
Given a choice between playing Eve Online for free or having to walk over hot coals wearing a duck contume. I'd walk over the coals and quack my head off.
I chose option number 2. And I've warned other people to avoid playing EVE due to their attitude on DEV cheating.
Jayheld9 - "Be warned: oldest news ever!" It's THREE MONTHS OLD! LOL. Perhaps the GM cheating is old, but the dev cheating is quite new. Maybe the CEO of CCP will be next, seems like we're moving up the chain.
Regarding the effect on gameplay being so small it cannot be noticed, that is unfortunately a matter for debate. BoB and it's allies are currently taking over Fade, Deklein and Branch. That's ten percent of the 0.0 (lucrative) real estate in the game. Nobody seems to be able to beat them, and many have tried. Now, is that coincidence that they are doing so well? If it's not just coincidence (which would mean the cheating was a lot worse than CCP admitted), then you just can't credibly state that the cheating has no effect on the average player. Because eventually the average player IS going to want to venture out into 0.0 space, which BoB is now taking over at an astonishing rate.
We can debate whether or not this should matter to a prospective player. However, I don't think we should be debating about whether prospective players ought to be made aware of this issue. I say keep the truth out there, and let people decide on their own. But informed choices can only be made in the presence of information. This thread provides that information, and I hope readers will pass it along.
While I may agree that T20 was a idiot as I have siad before, and again I agree that his ass should have been fired(note when it was discovered not after he was already punished). The fact is that the advantage gained by the BPOs were simply not significant enough to warrant the downfall of BoB. If anything the Coalition forces initial offensives just woke the sleeping dragon. Now two of the best PvP alliances MC and BoB are pushing both north and south along the rim taking appart the alliances one by one. big surprise that you don't see alot of cooperation amoung the Coalition forces to defend thier collective territory.
Now I'm all fine with giving new players all the information to make a decision about it, but don't do it with a Slant, and if your going to pose a question do me a favor and don't use "entrapment" style questions where regardless of the answer it still shows your right.
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You seem to be telling people what the Dev did, rather than telling us how it affected you... please, do tell.
Personally, I do everything that I've always done, and so does everyone else that I play EVE with.
Edit: To the guy that wondered why the Dev wasn't fired; I have absolutely no idea why he wasn't. I didn't bother following up some of the excuses that were floating about. But that Dev doesn't deserve his job, I won't argue about that!
Edit 2: It's a game! Funny how people are more upset about a game, rather than starving people in 3rd world countries and all that (omfg! I sound like me granny!). So, until you can tell me something you've done that doesn't involve burying your head in the sand, don't tell me not to keep mine there.
-iCeh
and yes, in the gaming world...3 months ago is old news.. ancient in fact.... you'd be surprised how many threads/posts here and elsewhere (including the official EvE forums) were devoted to this subject.
And there's no evidence that cheating not withstanding that BOB wouldn't be kicking everyone's arses over there anyways... from what i understand they are well organized and control alot of weath in the game...pretty good forumla's for success I'm thinking...
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can't be arsed to read the this topic from begining to end to be honest. Stupid things like that happend and will happen in every MMO. The only reasons something like this hasn't been revealed on WOW is that (a) the devs are too smart to actually play a mindless leveling game, and (b) that dude practicing.. um... self manipulation on youtube to a female elf avatar stole every , media minute that any intelligent god would allow.
this is kind of old news, but its still relevant. The two biggest problems is that its still happening and CCP is trying to gag anyone talking about it......
Its pretty obvious you never admit to doing more than you are caught doing, has Dev's admitted to doing more than they were caught doing, nope.....what are the chances that this was an isolated incident - 0%, and that many other Dev's and GM's aren't also cheating...100% chance they are also cheating......
If you steal something from someone, then you should be punished....but if everyone is stealing, then the incentive to punish the wrongdoer isn't as important because everyone is doing it.....this is the case with CCP, everyone is cheating/stealing....so what is the point of punishing anyone?
The only reason that everyone wants Band of Dev's destroyed is because of their cheating status.....the fact that they are lasting this long is because of their cheating status....
I'd strongly suggest anyone who is interested in this game to do some research and find out for yourself how corrupt CCP really is...
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
I think CCP isn't much alone with cheating, but it wont hit the community of other games as much as in EVEs single Server and Gamearchitecture. In case of BoB winning over alliance forces, they are better then the others. I am not in BoB myself, far from that, but i have still a lot contact throughout EVE talking with a lot of people beside having seen MC in action on the receiving side.
The cheat there was on personal lvl and even if a dev would spawn several billions on his account and spend it, it wouldnt be a promil on the generated and destructed amount of money and assets in general.
On the other side there are still enough unfixed and unsolved other problems that favor some or all other alliances that it really comes down to the personal and corporated skill.
I've been asked how it changed my own gameplay. Well, my corp was in Fade. Fade fell to BoB. Then Deklein. And now MC (A BoB ally) is hitting Branch hard. Just today I was in Branch, saw lots of MC (BoB ally) ships and few D2 (BoB enemy) ships. In fact, it was easily 30:1. That ratio makes me wonder whether the cheating has had a secondary effect, in other words have BoB enemies been leaving the game while BoB and their allies tend to stay with the game? Impossible for me to know. However, I can say that the suggestion put forth earlier, that if I don't like it I just join BoB, is not possible. BoB would NEVER take a former D2 ally. Too much risk.
The fact is, I DON'T KNOW whether the cheating has changed my gameplay. All I can go on is what I am observing. I see that BoB is dominating. I am having trouble finding places in 0.0 where I can exist. I am seeing fewer players even trying anymore to defend against BoB. Now, IF CCP is telling the truth, that the cheating was confined to only a few tech II BPOs, then the cheating isn't changing my gameplay. But my own corpmembers have noticed troubling things. For example, BoB seemed to start out with the most profitable areas in 0.0. There's many other examples, some already posted in this thread.
Now, I would LOVE to know things such as (1) how many tech II BPOs exist in total in the game, and how many of these belong to BoB? (2) how many POSs in total exist, and how many of these belong to BoB? (3) How many players have quit as a result of the cheating, and what percentage of those players were in D2 or other anti-BoB alliances? (4) How many Devs play the game (they are still permitted to do so), and how long have they played, and in what alliances are they playing? But CCP ain't answering those questions. If ownership of POSs or BPOs is grossly unbalanced toward BoB, it would be powerful circumstancial evidence that the cheating is much more widespread than admitted.
(I have been told that it is possible to look up how many POSs are owned by particular corporations, and that BoB owns a staggering number compared to other corporations. However, I have not figured out how to access that information).
What I can say for sure is that I do NOT believe CCP when they say that the dev did not share gameplay secrets with BoB. Think hard about that for a moment. The man risked his company's reputation to give very rare items to his corp via a blatant cheat. Is it really credible to believe him when he admits he did that, but denies that he gave information?
BoB pilots appear to have unlimited funds. Their tactics seem to have less to do with cooperation and more to do with the fact that once their ship is destroyed, they jump right back into battle with an equally impressive ship and setup. Meanwhile, I'm flying in a ship that took me months to afford, and one that I cannot easily replace . . . where did BoB get all those resources?
Well, IF the cheating was more widespread than admitted, then we know where they got rhe resources. But there's just no way to be sure. What I DO know for sure is that I do NOT trust CCP. I can see the unbalanced gameplay. And I'm not paying for it after the recent revelations regarding dev cheating.
That was a well thought out post that puts in print what many of the players left in EVE are thinking.
Those considerations were enough for me to leave EVE for good.
I do own up to 6 of one type of ship fitted all the same in case I need them. Is just a matter of insuring before I go out the door. Tech 1 and Tech 2 ships. Example would be, I have 6 Ospreys in 3 systems (2 per system) with a mining setup. You can say that an Osprey is not as expensive as other ships, true, but yet again is just an example.
To SWGLover, not to be rude... but you must consider going back to SWG and leave us.
"To SWGLover, not to be rude... but you must consider going back to SWG and leave us."
Sorry, but the Dev's behavior is worth commenting on, so ya'll are stuck with me.
1st the t2 BPOs, Should be 20 per module and 8 per Ship once the lottery has burnt itself out, While how many BoB has compared to the rest I think it would be grossly inadequte for proving anything. The real information would be to determine the path of ownership for the BPOs. Did they gain them through the lottery, purchasing off of auctions, players joining the alliance, Loot from destroyed ships? That would be a better indication of cheating then just how many they own. I'd be curious just how many BPOs go up for sale after they were recieved by the "winner"
2nd POSes, not sure how this would help but for the most part BoB itself does not run most of the POSes, thier numerous vassel alliances and corps handle the basic Command and Control for the areas they are assigned.
3rd number of players that have quit. would be nice but the possiblities of misinformation is great. I know when I got burn out running my first corp we got war decced which was the last straw. I put the reason I quit was I believe "the stupid War dec system" but the real reason was just plain burn out. I do not doubt that people have quit, though I think it would balance out over a majority of EVE's population. There have been several BoB friendly players that also left either BoB or the game from the stigma that was caused by the incident.
4th How many devs play the game. Hopefully all of them, though I hope they spread them selves out a bit more. and that they keep an eye on thier activities.
The biggest problem is the potential for misinterpertaion of the data. Having a large quanity of assets does not indicate cheating or in this case that there was more cheating then what was admitted to. If we fail to consider all possiblities then you may end up assuming that anyone who is succeful cheats. I will add the the Hierarchal command system BoB sets up amoung the 20+ alliances that live and operate in thier Control of influence does allow them to better direct thier forces. Something that the Coallition seems to be lacking. Apart of this structure is a regulated economy which helps curtail excessive pricing on certain ships. Along with the large amount of industrial backing does allow for he production of a large warmachine.
No...
Quote:
this is kind of old news, but its still relevant. The two biggest problems is that its still happening and CCP is trying to gag anyone talking about it......
Its pretty obvious you never admit to doing more than you are caught doing, has Dev's admitted to doing more than they were caught doing, nope.....what are the chances that this was an isolated incident - 0%, and that many other Dev's and GM's aren't also cheating...100% chance they are also cheating......
If you steal something from someone, then you should be punished....but if everyone is stealing, then the incentive to punish the wrongdoer isn't as important because everyone is doing it.....this is the case with CCP, everyone is cheating/stealing....so what is the point of punishing anyone?
The only reason that everyone wants Band of Dev's destroyed is because of their cheating status.....the fact that they are lasting this long is because of their cheating status....
I'd strongly suggest anyone who is interested in this game to do some research and find out for yourself how corrupt CCP really is...
Also keep in mind that this has been going on from day one. The question everyone has to ask themselves is does the fact that the devs are playing and sometimes cheating bother you enough to not play. While these types of things to affect everyone in the game to a some degree, is it enough for you to say "thats all i can stands cause I cant stands no more" (in popeye's voice).
For me personally I have quit 5 times now and had come back 4 time and depending on how soon TR will be out will problebly be back in a few months. Just canceled two account, one ends on the 19th and one june 7th so am setting some 48 day tranings. I am not quitting this time over this incedent becuse in the last four years of playing EVE I have personally see worse. I am quitting because of being lied to again (re-uped after seeing an interview where CCP said the RE was going to be in Kali) about RE and after giving invention a fair chance (5 months and 3.8bil isk invested) I have had enough, though if the devs did actually activate RE (it is in game) I would be back that day.
Now while I do agree that it is important to remember the past acts to try and limit this type of actions, constantly rehashing the same incedent is getting old. And besides if you are playing the game and actually look in the right places you will see new stuff to bring up, but I'm not going to go there.
An so it begins
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What I wonder is how bad is their gagging, you mention that CCP is corrupt and cheating on their forums and your immediately banned? lol
I cannot see CCP saying: "sorry, we cannot accept your money for our game cause after paying us good money your telling the truth...."
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The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.
Aslo if you really had the best interest of the people at heart, then you would have been so kind enough to put down all the facts. For example, on how CCP caught the cheater way before the public uncovered it, and punished him for it. Over reactions like this is a good example to why they choose not release this information. Btw, did i mention the part where they apologized?
You guys keep throwing this shit in peoples faces, and people get sick of it. This why the coaltion is losing. They based their entire "Crusade" on assumptions. I can't wait til BoB and its Allies wipe you cry-babies off the map.
Enjoy Empire Space. Because its going to be your last resort.
I'm pretty sure it happens at least once in every single MMO/MMORPG that has EVER been released.
EVE is not anymore special than WOW, EQ1, EQ2, V:SoH, DAoC and so on...
Wake up and smell the flowers.