I think a lot of people are forgeting WoW is a very casual MMO. I like to think of it as Diablo 2 in MMO form. Everything in the game is casual including raids. 90% of the people who leveled 1-70 will have usually spent in one play session longer then it takes to run one raid. The thing about raids though is you do the same thing for that amount of time. None the less still casual.
LoL i hardly call grinding an instance for severall hours every day so the guild bosses and there friends can get there gear.
Don't play with that guild. It takes 25 people to run an raid now. I know at LEAST 25 awesome people in WoW. And see "several hours a day" It takes 2-4 to run an instance. 4 is if it's a horrible group. People put double that sometimes just LEVELING their characters in a single day. Not all, but most. If 2-4 hours is taking a toll on you I dont think MMO is the right type of game.
WoW is neither the best game I've played, nor the worst. When a game is released with DAoC like PVP and WoW like PVE, I think that's when I'll have found a new favorite game. Let's just hope that such a game is possible to develop.
AoC is your friend.
WAR more likely.
Neither of these games will likely have WoW like PVE if you are referring to PVE raids. WAR is more like DAoC pvp, while AoC will have PVE raids of 25 man.
WAR is just about PvP though and you can level from 1 to cap just from PvP.
AoC has two separate leveling systems where in PVE you get 80 levels, and in AoC you get 20 pvp level.
AoC may have more to offer on the customization side where you get traits and feats through both pvp and pve, plus it isn't using the AUTO ATTACK method.
I just can't wait till AoC and WAR and Spellborn and Tabula Rasa and Infinity and Fury and Darkfall and.............................................
I can't wait till ALL of these games come out and are not as good as ya'll think they will be. I hope that you find one you like and play it, enjoy it, and stop posting this kind of mind-vomit garbage on the mmorpg forums...
people like wow. get over it. people don't like wow. get over it.
i too hope for something better, something more fun and engaging then wow. if i find that game, i'll play it. untill then, i'll play wow. why? I enjoy it. it's the best out there right now in my opinion, i have a lot of friends and a good guild in the game etc etc etc
remember...
"Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it's a good game. Just beacuse YOU like it, doesn't mean it's a good game. Just because it sold 8 million copies, doesn't mean it's a good game. Just because it sold 7 copies, doesn't mean it's a bad game. Just because you have a keyboard and internet access, doesn't mean you have to come to MMORPG.com and write this mind-numbing garbage on the forums."
not dissing the OP, he stated his opinion. this is to all the f-tards that jump at every chance to be a forum troll/flamer.
though, to the OP, you should have known a response like this was coming.
WoW is neither the best game I've played, nor the worst. When a game is released with DAoC like PVP and WoW like PVE, I think that's when I'll have found a new favorite game. Let's just hope that such a game is possible to develop.
AoC is your friend.
WAR more likely.
Neither of these games will likely have WoW like PVE if you are referring to PVE raids. WAR is more like DAoC pvp, while AoC will have PVE raids of 25 man.
WAR is just about PvP though and you can level from 1 to cap just from PvP.
AoC has two separate leveling systems where in PVE you get 80 levels, and in AoC you get 20 pvp level.
AoC may have more to offer on the customization side where you get traits and feats through both pvp and pve, plus it isn't using the AUTO ATTACK method.
True, but it was meant more in the way that WAR will be more "like" WoW then AoC will IMO. Or maybe both games have similar traits with WoW, not that they have anything to do with WoW.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes" Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn
Its all up to personal taste. I don't think you should have an opinion if you haven't played the game. With 8 million subs they must have done something right. Your reasons though don't necessarily mean its a good game for everyone. I'll play devil's advocate.
1) Some people want a bigger thrill. Makes the game more exciting. Some people want even more penaltys for death, like allowing other player to loot your corpse. Rest XP bonus screws people that play for long periods of time.
2) Have you seen the prices in ah? At least with trade I could usually haggle the price down.
3) People sell accounts and you have people that don't know what they're doing with epics also. If an item is free, how does that ruin the economy?
4) Instances take away from the Massive Multiplayer experience. Also makes it harder to get groups for those, especialy to PUG something like MC.
5) GW is better at PvP.
6) I would have agreed with you, until they started banning honest players for exploitations that never happened. Also banning players for using accounts on different computers, I mean come on that's just silly. A few people I ran into had this happen. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a good thing.
7) The server I played on when I played regularly went down and was laggy all the time.
As soon as actuall losses/penalties are called out for pvp alotof people start calling the ones who want them griefers.I am one of those who likes harsh death penalties etc and i am hardly a griefer.Lordslater plays eve online..he's a bit of a fanboy god bless him ...and i played that to.As you probably know in eve death penalties are harsh..VERRY harsh in some cases.I lost a ship once wich i worked for 2 full months to get it together and since i did not insure it i lost everything.And i liked it..no in fact i LOVED it.The first minutes afterwards you are in shock..but then you start to see the value of it.You'll think harder/faster next time you get on the field and try to win.I mean "really" try to win..the adrenaline rushes through you every single time you go into pvp because you know you couldv worked weeks/months or more for nothing if you loose. With this i mean it is not aimed to help griefers get an even better feeling..it's there to get an overall feeling that it stinks to die , just like it should.And to think in some mmorpgs people complain cause they need to walk 10 minutes to their body to ressurect it as a penalty or loose a bit of xp.Please....
There are 2 ways to go about making it "mean" something. You can either penalize the person who lost, or you can reward the person who wins. Personally I think rewarding the person who wins keeps people wanting to play while penalizing the loser tends to make people want to stop playing. If you think the only way for it to mean something is to have the loser be penalized in some way, I think you fall into the category of people that enjoy seeing other people suffer. Maybe that's not a griefer, but it's pretty darn close if you ask me.
though, to the OP, you should have known a response like this was coming.
Yes, I did at least from some. But I also thought there would be a little honest discussion of the actual pro's and/or cons of the game itself rather than just the usual "8 million...blah, blah blah". I don't care whether you use that to either praise WoW or to bash it, I'm tired of it. I'd rather see a real opinion on it rather than a cliche. That's all I'm saying.
and still you fail to see what i said.As i stated people tend to think that if you ask for harsh punishment upon death you are a griefer.I then stated how i lost a ship i worked on for months and after a few minutes upon death i realised i had never EVER had such a rush in pvp due to the fact that i klnew what i was going to loose.
No i am not a griefer by far..i lost more in total assets myself then i gained in pvp in eve.I engaged multiple persons at the same time..engaged people from bigger alliances who outgunned and outnumbered me big time.I am someone who likes to "find the edge" in a game and eve is this far the only game that ever delivered it to me.
I hope you see what i mean now.I am not saying you should like or dislike that in your game..i am merely stating that FOR ME the only reall pvp there is is pvp in wich i can loose quite lot in oreder to get me the reall thrill in pvp.I played DAOC..shadowbane..WoW and many many more games.Only in eve i found myself locked on my chair and my heart pounding like mad when i engaged in pvp.
If anything i did not like in WoW it was the pvp content.I quite liked the pve content/graphix and overall gameplay.I didn't get a good feel with the communtiy but tthat's jut who you do or do not talk to.Also i found the quests at a certain point to get a bit "pointless".I mean in the way that it didn't fill into a bigger picture.
Its all up to personal taste. I don't think you should have an opinion if you haven't played the game. With 8 million subs they must have done something right. Your reasons though don't necessarily mean its a good game for everyone. I'll play devil's advocate. 1) Some people want a bigger thrill. Makes the game more exciting. Some people want even more penaltys for death, like allowing other player to loot your corpse. Rest XP bonus screws people that play for long periods of time. 2) Have you seen the prices in ah? At least with trade I could usually haggle the price down. 3) People sell accounts and you have people that don't know what they're doing with epics also. If an item is free, how does that ruin the economy? 4) Instances take away from the Massive Multiplayer experience. Also makes it harder to get groups for those, especialy to PUG something like MC. 5) GW is better at PvP. 6) I would have agreed with you, until they started banning honest players for exploitations that never happened. Also banning players for using accounts on different computers, I mean come on that's just silly. A few people I ran into had this happen. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a good thing. 7) The server I played on when I played regularly went down and was laggy all the time.
Yes, that's exactly what I'd like to see more of. Some real opinions and discussion on what they did or did not like about the game. Believe it or not, developers do read this stuff and if we give them some honest discussion, we might actually see some changes for the better. The purpose of my thread was not to spout off about how I think WoW is so great, but to get people to give a true opinion on the points I made. I'm not seeing many comments from either side about my actual points. Your comments were great even if you're only playing devils advocate.
and still you fail to see what i said.As i stated people tend to think that if you ask for harsh punishment upon death you are a griefer.I then stated how i lost a ship i worked on for months and after a few minutes upon death i realised i had never EVER had such a rush in pvp due to the fact that i klnew what i was going to loose. No i am not a griefer by far..i lost more in total assets myself then i gained in pvp in eve.I engaged multiple persons at the same time..engaged people from bigger alliances who outgunned and outnumbered me big time.I am someone who likes to "find the edge" in a game and eve is this far the only game that ever delivered it to me. I hope you see what i mean now.I am not saying you should like or dislike that in your game..i am merely stating that FOR ME the only reall pvp there is is pvp in wich i can loose quite lot in oreder to get me the reall thrill in pvp.I played DAOC..shadowbane..WoW and many many more games.Only in eve i found myself locked on my chair and my heart pounding like mad when i engaged in pvp.
If anything i did not like in WoW it was the pvp content.I quite liked the pve content/graphix and overall gameplay.I didn't get a good feel with the communtiy but tthat's jut who you do or do not talk to.Also i found the quests at a certain point to get a bit "pointless".I mean in the way that it didn't fill into a bigger picture.
Ok, you've conviced me. There are some who getter a bigger thrill the more there is on the line and I understand that. I did play Diablo II in hardcore mode a few times myself and I know what you're talking about. But an XP loss can not be equated with what you are talking about. That doesn't really put anything more on the line than without it. I'll give you credit for trying to make your point without resorting to flames. Good post.
Ok, now I am going to post on what it is you are looking for here. I misjudged this post before, and for that I apologize.
1. I personally can live with or without xp penalties. I played EQ for 2 years up to luclin, and I never had an issue with them because if I died it was normally my fault and it gave a bit of an edge to crawling a dungeon. On the other hand I enjoyed the light hearted nature of WoW when I first started playing. In fact, I still love the idea that WoW set out with, but the end game is what killed WoW for me.
2. Nothing wrong with an AH, or mail system, and WoW's is nicely streamlined and easy to use. I'll concur with the person above who said the prices are out of control. I havent played in about 3 months, but last I saw stuff was WAY over priced due to the availability of gold buying.
3. Soul bound items are alright by me, but I enjoy twinking out my alts if I want to. What does it really matter if some kid who doesn't know his ass from his sword has a godly armor set? If you don't have it in the first place, his having it shouldn't mean anything to you. And if he doesn't know how to play then he poses no threat to you.
4. As an ex EQ player I will say this...I loved instanced dungeons! I hated camping mobs, and bosses, and quests! WoW did this right in my book, I mean only the dungeons were instanced so it didn't take away from the MMO aspect for me because when I was outside of a dungeon I could see hundreds of people and interact with them, but not have to fight with them over quest mobs and bosses.
5. My problem with PVP in WoW was not a fault in the design..it was the community. Never in my life have I experienced more griefing, camping, and annoying pvp than in WoW. The kids that play this game almost ruined it for me, and if it wasnt for my guild I'd have quit long before I did.
6. Never had to use customer support in WoW so I cannot comment there, but maybe that says something in and of itself. In two years of playing I never once had to contact a GM....well except when they changed my character's name (which was Dogfart and I only named him that because it was a throw away char during the release times where you couldn't get on any servers =P).
7. I'll not refute you there, they are good at keeping things in check.
So, overall WoW is a good game. I'll give you that, what sucks about it is it's lack of an end game outside of mind numbing raids.
Most people just hate World of Warcraft because they can't pay for it. Either because they "say" that they can't even afford 15$ a month, or their parents won't let them.
On the other hand, I am happy that this thread turned out to be full of mature replies, rather than the common "bah wow sucks! get a life" replies. It does come down to taste, there are people who don't like fantasy games but that doesn't mean it's a bad game. Also, it is true that World of Warcraft offers some great features, and it does have some flaws aswell, but then again, what game doesn't?
Ok, now I am going to post on what it is you are looking for here. I misjudged this post before, and for that I apologize.
That was probably my fault because of the title, but if I titled it "Discussion of Pros/Cons of standard MMO's", do you think anyone would have bothered to click on the link? Well maybe you would have
The problem with World of Warcraft is that the entire game is based around collecting items. While it is time consuming, the fun is really lacking. Even before WoW this was the norm of course, but Blizzard took it into an extreme unheard of. They are basically feeding on the addiction of gamers by creating these prized items and setting them out of reach for most normal gamers. This creates return customers chasing after these impossible goals.
To hardcore gamers, that have no problem collecting these rare items, they are feeding on their insecurities (everyone is insecure in some way so don't get offended). They make them feel important and powerful which in turn keeps them coming back to have that feeling.
So what I am saying is WoW is basically like a drug and to replicate its success would be near impossible since you'd have to sell part of your soul to do so.
People ask why everyone races to the level cap and no longer enjoys the journey to it. This is because the journey is no longer fun. Unless you are a roleplayer or its your first character there is no point to the lower levels except to consume time.
MMORPGs need a new direction and LOTRO's linear gameplay mechanics are not the answer.
Most people just hate World of Warcraft because they can't pay for it. Either because they "say" that they can't even afford 15$ a month, or their parents won't let them.
On the other hand, I am happy that this thread turned out to be full of mature replies, rather than the common "bah wow sucks! get a life" replies. It does come down to taste, there are people who don't like fantasy games but that doesn't mean it's a bad game. Also, it is true that World of Warcraft offers some great features, and it does have some flaws aswell, but then again, what game doesn't?
Ok that is the winner of the most rediculous comment on the boards ever. Most of the WoW "Haters" are older gamers who have played MMO games before WoW. So how does that equate to kids or people that can't afford the 15 per month?
Please keep in mind that the old generation of MMO games (UO, EQ1, and AC1) were not kid friendly by any means. There were no gaming cards to pay for it. You had to have a credit card to own an account. So don't try and state that WoW is somehow played by more adults and it is kids who do not play it.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
WoW is a really good game for small group PvE. WoW is a polished game.
Where WoW fails for me, it has a terrible balance in PvP. The endgame raiding dynamic fails because most of the WoW population hate it and a lot of those who raid only do so to progress their character (they also hate it, not all of them but like i said a good portion). WoW added PvP as an afterthought and then is attempting to run with it now and in a game where PvE is your major content then PvP is going to suffer and it continues to do so because of arenas etc... WoW also has the whiniest bunch of babies in all of the world on their forums constantly. This is due to Blizzards futile and poor attempts to balance PvE and PvP... Instead of buffing, it's always nerfing.
The problem with World of Warcraft is that the entire game is based around collecting items. While it is time consuming, the fun is really lacking. Even before WoW this was the norm of course, but Blizzard took it into an extreme unheard of. They are basically feeding on the addiction of gamers by creating these prized items and setting them out of reach for most normal gamers. This creates return customers chasing after these impossible goals. To hardcore gamers, that have no problem collecting these rare items, they are feeding on their insecurities (everyone is insecure in some way so don't get offended). They make them feel important and powerful which in turn keeps them coming back to have that feeling. So what I am saying is WoW is basically like a drug and to replicate its success would be near impossible since you'd have to sell part of your soul to do so. People ask why everyone races to the level cap and no longer enjoys the journey to it. This is because the journey is no longer fun. Unless you are a roleplayer or its your first character there is no point to the lower levels except to consume time. MMORPGs need a new direction and LOTRO's linear gameplay mechanics are not the answer.
I agree with everything you say up until that last sentance. LOTRO has taken the Genre away from gear dependancy. This is a step in the right direction. Also the game is geared more towards the playing of the "Story" then going out and just killing. This is another step in the right direction imo. The closer that MMO's can come to replicating the feel of a single player game, the better the genre will do.
And what I mean by that is. The more they make your character actually feel part of the story and as an actual hero, the more popular the genre will become. Most people do not want the opposite direction. Most of the MMO players now adays want a more story driven environment. I know a lot of my fellow MMO veterans hate this fact. Most of them want the old style "sandbox" world with full PVP, basically as close to reality as they can get, but the mass fans of MMO games now are casuals. Casuals want to log into their game and get away for a little while. They want the ability to get stuff done in small increments of time (1-2hrs). They want the ability to feel like they are essential to the plot of the story as they play their character.
I think the first game that is truely story driven and is extremely casual friendly for the entire game (and not just to level cap) will be the first game to beat WoW's current numbers. My guess is that by the time that game comes out WoW will only be a shadow of its current self, having a ton of subscribers move onto newer games. But my guess for the first true competitor for WoW's 8million plus number is Bioware's MMO coming out.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
1. Grinding. The number one thing that makes WoW what it is at endgame. You can either: A. Grind reputation to get reputation rewards. B. Grind PVP to get pvp rewards. C. Grind instances to get keys to unlock more instances to get loot so you can do the bigger instance, so you can get better loot so you can grind more reputation to get more loot so you can do better instances so you can get more loot so you can grind more reputation to get more loot. That will all be obsolete when Blizzard releases the next expansion pack.
Did I miss anything? The reason so many people don't like WoW has nothing to do with the subscription numbers. And everything to do with the blatant lies the developers told. The first developers who were designing the game said it was going to be a game that casuals could compete with hardcore players in. Then Blizzard hired some new guys to work on the game as well and all of the content they turn out is high end raid instances with rediculous stats on the loot. They make the game so super casual friendly from 1-59 or 1-69 depending if you have the expansion, but then at max level the game flips and is no longer casual friendly. That combined with the greed that their gear dependant system creates makes the game not a fun environment for non-harcore raiders.
Those are the main reasons I no longer play the game. They are also the same reasons for the people I know who have quit the game.
Exactly what I was thinkin. I gave the game three chances but each time I started to get higher I would hear guildies complaining about the raids. the selifsh loot ninja's, the bad additude of many. The nail in the coffin for me was when the expansion made all previous raid gear completely worthless, why am I going to run the same instance a million times to get this epic gear if the next expansions blues will make that loot worthless, makes no sense to me personally. Saying that I don't hate the game and actually have friends that play but do tire of hearing the same people bringin up the 8 million subs quote whenever someone says something negative. I really don't care if it has 8 million subs it really doesn't make it the best just the most popular atm.
I think people get annoyed when people try to cite WoW as the holy grail of mmorpgs. What they are pointing out is its success stems from a number of factors. One of which should be recognized being WoW a quality game with every aspect done up so its not like some mmorpgs that have lameass PvE where the mobs have just been lazily positioned.
I think people get annoyed when people try to cite WoW as the holy grail of mmorpgs. What they are pointing out is its success stems from a number of factors. One of which should be recognized being WoW a quality game with every aspect done up so its not like some mmorpgs that have lameass PvE where the mobs have just been lazily positioned.
The first part I agree with you about, but the second part notsomuch.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes" Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn
I agree with everything you say up until that last sentance. LOTRO has taken the Genre away from gear dependancy. This is a step in the right direction. Also the game is geared more towards the playing of the "Story" then going out and just killing. This is another step in the right direction imo. The closer that MMO's can come to replicating the feel of a single player game, the better the genre will do. And what I mean by that is. The more they make your character actually feel part of the story and as an actual hero, the more popular the genre will become. Most people do not want the opposite direction. Most of the MMO players now adays want a more story driven environment. I know a lot of my fellow MMO veterans hate this fact. Most of them want the old style "sandbox" world with full PVP, basically as close to reality as they can get, but the mass fans of MMO games now are casuals. Casuals want to log into their game and get away for a little while. They want the ability to get stuff done in small increments of time (1-2hrs). They want the ability to feel like they are essential to the plot of the story as they play their character. I think the first game that is truely story driven and is extremely casual friendly for the entire game (and not just to level cap) will be the first game to beat WoW's current numbers. My guess is that by the time that game comes out WoW will only be a shadow of its current self, having a ton of subscribers move onto newer games. But my guess for the first true competitor for WoW's 8million plus number is Bioware's MMO coming out.
I disagree, MMORPGS are not suppose to be driven by static storylines and instance play. Instances were created to prevent boss camping, but since LOTRO is not gear based then there is no need for instances. MMORPGs are not single player games, they are meant to be a dynamic experience. You don't even make your own decisions in LOTRO, you're just lead through the same storyline everyone else goes through. If they wanted to make a single player game with online features they could of made a game like Diablo or Guild Wars.
LOTRO will be an enjoyable game for lots of people. It's just not the next generation of gaming, not by a long shot.
and if it is and we have a dozen new games with some dull static storyline for me to follow then that will truly be the death of the MMORPG.
Oh and yes I hate most single player games, that's what books are for.
the majority of people are way too naive to know what makes up a good game. Personal opinions don't decide how good a game is. matter of fact, there is no one opinion that can be right, because everybody's different. Nobody likes the exact same things. But people are so self-absorbed and full of pride that they think their opinion is better and everyone else is who doesn't know a thing about anything. In terms of "good game"s it's not the critics who decide, not the individual hecklers, it's the consumer, the entire population of gamers. Like in the box office, the movies that are watched more, usually means it's a good movie, that and get a heck of a lot more money out of it. Elections are the same thing. People vote.. the people who buy the game are voting for this game. and in WoW's case.. I'd say the gamers have made their choice. so not just the ignorant remark about how 8 million people playing it doesnt mean its a good game, its anyone who takes time out of their pathetic prideful life to spit their counterfeit 2 cents out about a game that's been a huge success, who need to realize they're just a jealous lowlife douchebag who can't amount to anything that Blizzard has done so maybe keeping their mouth shut and actually doing something productive will do us all a favor in that we can enjoy a REAL good game with real gamers.
most peeps are too young to understand games anyway. you look at FPS Quake, Doom.. the classics and these kids rant about how much they suck.. the elder folks might still enjoy PONG, we understand there are standards now because we have to seduce the teeny boppers to play our games and make them hate their parents for not keeping up the internet bills, and if we don't ruin their lives then.... we as game developers .. have failed
I agree with the idea that wow is a good casual friendly character based game. I never played wow that much but i did play eq2 and when that game released it was fun till i hit lvl 55. At that point i started to loose my interest in mmorpgs. I've tried playing other mmorpgs but evertime i find them unchallanging and all the same.
My problem isn't with wow but all current mmorpgs. I think alot of ppl that say they 'hate wow' feel the same. They just don't what to believe it so they aim there lack of enjoyment for mmorpgs at wow.
Comments
Don't play with that guild. It takes 25 people to run an raid now. I know at LEAST 25 awesome people in WoW. And see "several hours a day" It takes 2-4 to run an instance. 4 is if it's a horrible group. People put double that sometimes just LEVELING their characters in a single day. Not all, but most. If 2-4 hours is taking a toll on you I dont think MMO is the right type of game.
AoC is your friend.
WAR more likely.Neither of these games will likely have WoW like PVE if you are referring to PVE raids. WAR is more like DAoC pvp, while AoC will have PVE raids of 25 man.
WAR is just about PvP though and you can level from 1 to cap just from PvP.
AoC has two separate leveling systems where in PVE you get 80 levels, and in AoC you get 20 pvp level.
AoC may have more to offer on the customization side where you get traits and feats through both pvp and pve, plus it isn't using the AUTO ATTACK method.
I just can't wait till AoC and WAR and Spellborn and Tabula Rasa and Infinity and Fury and Darkfall and.............................................
I can't wait till ALL of these games come out and are not as good as ya'll think they will be. I hope that you find one you like and play it, enjoy it, and stop posting this kind of mind-vomit garbage on the mmorpg forums...
people like wow. get over it. people don't like wow. get over it.
i too hope for something better, something more fun and engaging then wow. if i find that game, i'll play it. untill then, i'll play wow. why? I enjoy it. it's the best out there right now in my opinion, i have a lot of friends and a good guild in the game etc etc etc
remember...
"Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it's a good game. Just beacuse YOU like it, doesn't mean it's a good game. Just because it sold 8 million copies, doesn't mean it's a good game. Just because it sold 7 copies, doesn't mean it's a bad game. Just because you have a keyboard and internet access, doesn't mean you have to come to MMORPG.com and write this mind-numbing garbage on the forums."
not dissing the OP, he stated his opinion. this is to all the f-tards that jump at every chance to be a forum troll/flamer.
though, to the OP, you should have known a response like this was coming.
AoC is your friend.
WAR more likely.Neither of these games will likely have WoW like PVE if you are referring to PVE raids. WAR is more like DAoC pvp, while AoC will have PVE raids of 25 man.
WAR is just about PvP though and you can level from 1 to cap just from PvP.
AoC has two separate leveling systems where in PVE you get 80 levels, and in AoC you get 20 pvp level.
AoC may have more to offer on the customization side where you get traits and feats through both pvp and pve, plus it isn't using the AUTO ATTACK method.
True, but it was meant more in the way that WAR will be more "like" WoW then AoC will IMO. Or maybe both games have similar traits with WoW, not that they have anything to do with WoW."I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes"
Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn
Its all up to personal taste. I don't think you should have an opinion if you haven't played the game. With 8 million subs they must have done something right. Your reasons though don't necessarily mean its a good game for everyone. I'll play devil's advocate.
1) Some people want a bigger thrill. Makes the game more exciting. Some people want even more penaltys for death, like allowing other player to loot your corpse. Rest XP bonus screws people that play for long periods of time.
2) Have you seen the prices in ah? At least with trade I could usually haggle the price down.
3) People sell accounts and you have people that don't know what they're doing with epics also. If an item is free, how does that ruin the economy?
4) Instances take away from the Massive Multiplayer experience. Also makes it harder to get groups for those, especialy to PUG something like MC.
5) GW is better at PvP.
6) I would have agreed with you, until they started banning honest players for exploitations that never happened. Also banning players for using accounts on different computers, I mean come on that's just silly. A few people I ran into had this happen. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a good thing.
7) The server I played on when I played regularly went down and was laggy all the time.
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There are 2 ways to go about making it "mean" something. You can either penalize the person who lost, or you can reward the person who wins. Personally I think rewarding the person who wins keeps people wanting to play while penalizing the loser tends to make people want to stop playing. If you think the only way for it to mean something is to have the loser be penalized in some way, I think you fall into the category of people that enjoy seeing other people suffer. Maybe that's not a griefer, but it's pretty darn close if you ask me.
Yes, I did at least from some. But I also thought there would be a little honest discussion of the actual pro's and/or cons of the game itself rather than just the usual "8 million...blah, blah blah". I don't care whether you use that to either praise WoW or to bash it, I'm tired of it. I'd rather see a real opinion on it rather than a cliche. That's all I'm saying.
and still you fail to see what i said.As i stated people tend to think that if you ask for harsh punishment upon death you are a griefer.I then stated how i lost a ship i worked on for months and after a few minutes upon death i realised i had never EVER had such a rush in pvp due to the fact that i klnew what i was going to loose.
No i am not a griefer by far..i lost more in total assets myself then i gained in pvp in eve.I engaged multiple persons at the same time..engaged people from bigger alliances who outgunned and outnumbered me big time.I am someone who likes to "find the edge" in a game and eve is this far the only game that ever delivered it to me.
I hope you see what i mean now.I am not saying you should like or dislike that in your game..i am merely stating that FOR ME the only reall pvp there is is pvp in wich i can loose quite lot in oreder to get me the reall thrill in pvp.I played DAOC..shadowbane..WoW and many many more games.Only in eve i found myself locked on my chair and my heart pounding like mad when i engaged in pvp.
If anything i did not like in WoW it was the pvp content.I quite liked the pve content/graphix and overall gameplay.I didn't get a good feel with the communtiy but tthat's jut who you do or do not talk to.Also i found the quests at a certain point to get a bit "pointless".I mean in the way that it didn't fill into a bigger picture.
Oops, I just lost via godwins law
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
/Quoted for being hilarious!
Ok, now I am going to post on what it is you are looking for here. I misjudged this post before, and for that I apologize.
1. I personally can live with or without xp penalties. I played EQ for 2 years up to luclin, and I never had an issue with them because if I died it was normally my fault and it gave a bit of an edge to crawling a dungeon. On the other hand I enjoyed the light hearted nature of WoW when I first started playing. In fact, I still love the idea that WoW set out with, but the end game is what killed WoW for me.
2. Nothing wrong with an AH, or mail system, and WoW's is nicely streamlined and easy to use. I'll concur with the person above who said the prices are out of control. I havent played in about 3 months, but last I saw stuff was WAY over priced due to the availability of gold buying.
3. Soul bound items are alright by me, but I enjoy twinking out my alts if I want to. What does it really matter if some kid who doesn't know his ass from his sword has a godly armor set? If you don't have it in the first place, his having it shouldn't mean anything to you. And if he doesn't know how to play then he poses no threat to you.
4. As an ex EQ player I will say this...I loved instanced dungeons! I hated camping mobs, and bosses, and quests! WoW did this right in my book, I mean only the dungeons were instanced so it didn't take away from the MMO aspect for me because when I was outside of a dungeon I could see hundreds of people and interact with them, but not have to fight with them over quest mobs and bosses.
5. My problem with PVP in WoW was not a fault in the design..it was the community. Never in my life have I experienced more griefing, camping, and annoying pvp than in WoW. The kids that play this game almost ruined it for me, and if it wasnt for my guild I'd have quit long before I did.
6. Never had to use customer support in WoW so I cannot comment there, but maybe that says something in and of itself. In two years of playing I never once had to contact a GM....well except when they changed my character's name (which was Dogfart and I only named him that because it was a throw away char during the release times where you couldn't get on any servers =P).
7. I'll not refute you there, they are good at keeping things in check.
So, overall WoW is a good game. I'll give you that, what sucks about it is it's lack of an end game outside of mind numbing raids.
On the other hand, I am happy that this thread turned out to be full of mature replies, rather than the common "bah wow sucks! get a life" replies. It does come down to taste, there are people who don't like fantasy games but that doesn't mean it's a bad game. Also, it is true that World of Warcraft offers some great features, and it does have some flaws aswell, but then again, what game doesn't?
That was probably my fault because of the title, but if I titled it "Discussion of Pros/Cons of standard MMO's", do you think anyone would have bothered to click on the link? Well maybe you would have
The problem with World of Warcraft is that the entire game is based around collecting items. While it is time consuming, the fun is really lacking. Even before WoW this was the norm of course, but Blizzard took it into an extreme unheard of. They are basically feeding on the addiction of gamers by creating these prized items and setting them out of reach for most normal gamers. This creates return customers chasing after these impossible goals.
To hardcore gamers, that have no problem collecting these rare items, they are feeding on their insecurities (everyone is insecure in some way so don't get offended). They make them feel important and powerful which in turn keeps them coming back to have that feeling.
So what I am saying is WoW is basically like a drug and to replicate its success would be near impossible since you'd have to sell part of your soul to do so.
People ask why everyone races to the level cap and no longer enjoys the journey to it. This is because the journey is no longer fun. Unless you are a roleplayer or its your first character there is no point to the lower levels except to consume time.
MMORPGs need a new direction and LOTRO's linear gameplay mechanics are not the answer.
Ok that is the winner of the most rediculous comment on the boards ever. Most of the WoW "Haters" are older gamers who have played MMO games before WoW. So how does that equate to kids or people that can't afford the 15 per month?
Please keep in mind that the old generation of MMO games (UO, EQ1, and AC1) were not kid friendly by any means. There were no gaming cards to pay for it. You had to have a credit card to own an account. So don't try and state that WoW is somehow played by more adults and it is kids who do not play it.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Where WoW fails for me, it has a terrible balance in PvP. The endgame raiding dynamic fails because most of the WoW population hate it and a lot of those who raid only do so to progress their character (they also hate it, not all of them but like i said a good portion). WoW added PvP as an afterthought and then is attempting to run with it now and in a game where PvE is your major content then PvP is going to suffer and it continues to do so because of arenas etc... WoW also has the whiniest bunch of babies in all of the world on their forums constantly. This is due to Blizzards futile and poor attempts to balance PvE and PvP... Instead of buffing, it's always nerfing.
I agree with everything you say up until that last sentance. LOTRO has taken the Genre away from gear dependancy. This is a step in the right direction. Also the game is geared more towards the playing of the "Story" then going out and just killing. This is another step in the right direction imo. The closer that MMO's can come to replicating the feel of a single player game, the better the genre will do.
And what I mean by that is. The more they make your character actually feel part of the story and as an actual hero, the more popular the genre will become. Most people do not want the opposite direction. Most of the MMO players now adays want a more story driven environment. I know a lot of my fellow MMO veterans hate this fact. Most of them want the old style "sandbox" world with full PVP, basically as close to reality as they can get, but the mass fans of MMO games now are casuals. Casuals want to log into their game and get away for a little while. They want the ability to get stuff done in small increments of time (1-2hrs). They want the ability to feel like they are essential to the plot of the story as they play their character.
I think the first game that is truely story driven and is extremely casual friendly for the entire game (and not just to level cap) will be the first game to beat WoW's current numbers. My guess is that by the time that game comes out WoW will only be a shadow of its current self, having a ton of subscribers move onto newer games. But my guess for the first true competitor for WoW's 8million plus number is Bioware's MMO coming out.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Peace
I think people get annoyed when people try to cite WoW as the holy grail of mmorpgs. What they are pointing out is its success stems from a number of factors. One of which should be recognized being WoW a quality game with every aspect done up so its not like some mmorpgs that have lameass PvE where the mobs have just been lazily positioned.
"I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day when he said..Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?...No, but i served in a company of heroes"
Sgt. Mike Ranney E-company 506PIR 101'st airborn
I disagree, MMORPGS are not suppose to be driven by static storylines and instance play. Instances were created to prevent boss camping, but since LOTRO is not gear based then there is no need for instances. MMORPGs are not single player games, they are meant to be a dynamic experience. You don't even make your own decisions in LOTRO, you're just lead through the same storyline everyone else goes through. If they wanted to make a single player game with online features they could of made a game like Diablo or Guild Wars.
LOTRO will be an enjoyable game for lots of people. It's just not the next generation of gaming, not by a long shot.
and if it is and we have a dozen new games with some dull static storyline for me to follow then that will truly be the death of the MMORPG.
Oh and yes I hate most single player games, that's what books are for.
the majority of people are way too naive to know what makes up a good game. Personal opinions don't decide how good a game is. matter of fact, there is no one opinion that can be right, because everybody's different. Nobody likes the exact same things. But people are so self-absorbed and full of pride that they think their opinion is better and everyone else is who doesn't know a thing about anything. In terms of "good game"s it's not the critics who decide, not the individual hecklers, it's the consumer, the entire population of gamers. Like in the box office, the movies that are watched more, usually means it's a good movie, that and get a heck of a lot more money out of it. Elections are the same thing. People vote.. the people who buy the game are voting for this game. and in WoW's case.. I'd say the gamers have made their choice. so not just the ignorant remark about how 8 million people playing it doesnt mean its a good game, its anyone who takes time out of their pathetic prideful life to spit their counterfeit 2 cents out about a game that's been a huge success, who need to realize they're just a jealous lowlife douchebag who can't amount to anything that Blizzard has done so maybe keeping their mouth shut and actually doing something productive will do us all a favor in that we can enjoy a REAL good game with real gamers.
most peeps are too young to understand games anyway. you look at FPS Quake, Doom.. the classics and these kids rant about how much they suck.. the elder folks might still enjoy PONG, we understand there are standards now because we have to seduce the teeny boppers to play our games and make them hate their parents for not keeping up the internet bills, and if we don't ruin their lives then.... we as game developers .. have failed
now pray for World peace... or die
Blizzard is
I agree with the idea that wow is a good casual friendly character based game. I never played wow that much but i did play eq2 and when that game released it was fun till i hit lvl 55. At that point i started to loose my interest in mmorpgs. I've tried playing other mmorpgs but evertime i find them unchallanging and all the same.
My problem isn't with wow but all current mmorpgs. I think alot of ppl that say they 'hate wow' feel the same. They just don't what to believe it so they aim there lack of enjoyment for mmorpgs at wow.