Steve's comment about DAoC was really right on. I had an avalonian paladin myself, just trying to be different (most were highlanders). There were many times a group would refuse to accept me when they found out I was avalonian because "he can't tank", even though they haven't even seen me do anything yet.
Otherwise the article was dead on. I do not think that Lowering The Bar is a bad thing, unless it's done too much. Although some enjoy excessive stat management, others prefer to just play the game.
I havent heard anyone say that games like WOW shouldnt exist or that it hadnt expanded the scope of the genre, but rather lamenting that its success had skewed the market to where nearly every new game tries to copy it. This would not be bad thing if what they were copying was its polish instead of its simplistic style. Im glad there is an easily accessible game out there, its the lack of diversity that is concerning me. There are some people out there who like immersion, challenge, and a sandbox type game. But the rush to chase the WOW gold has predicated this type game out of the market, and that upsets some people. Surely there is room for more than just the lowest common denonimator, in terms of game-play style.
Having started SWG in 2003, and it being my first MMO, I dont qualify as an "old school" player but simply someone who enjoyed the virtual world aspect of a game. Simplifying that game hasnt really worked out too well, has it.
Reality television is popular too, so I guess it must please some people on some level I just dont understand. Still, I am thankful that there are still at least a few more serious dramas around as well.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
I think that lowering the bar has hurt the gaming community overall. Sure it has allowed young and less sophisticated players to enter the market and enhance profitability (what the game makers truly care about), but it has destroyed the community. Having children in a game lowers the maturity level of the player base making the games less inviting (lets face it children without adult supervervision and no fear of consequences are generally real brats).
There is a place for both types of games in this world, but unfortunatly gaming companies will focus more on the lowered bar style because it is more profitable, and games like Ultima Online, Eve, and the original Star Wars Galaxies where a player could have a real impact on the world are becoming fewer and fewer and the cookie cutter rat obessed clones have become the rule instead of the exception.
I pretty much played EQ1 for 8 years and loved the game with the exception of flagging which burnt out sooo many people ( backflagging for those who have already been flagged ) IMO, the single largest mistake that the developers have made.
In fact, I recently became a victim of flagging burn-out, That, coupled with crappy programming I'm in search of a new MMO.
I recently have been beta testing LOTRO and I have begun to see whats becomming of the MMO industry.
In all honesty, in certain areas the bar has been raised.
For instance, I was pleased that the LOTRO dev team has produced incredibly brilliant graphics and a rock solid base for a program. The stability and polish is something I think that may set the standards for future MMOs.
As far as gameplay goes several aspects have become very unchallenging. ( some say 'dumbing down' but I don't want to insult those who like this style of gameplay).
---------------------
I'll compare crafting to what I was expecting to what I experienced.
In EQ, crafting can take years to develop. A max tailor, for instance, has done a lot of work to get there and they have a lot of personal pride in getting there. Through years of gathering, combining, failing, etc. becomming a master tailor is something that earns others respect as well as personnal pride.
I kinda expected LOTRO to be attracting a large crafting player base so was looking forward to experiencing what a newer crafting system would be like. I was expecting a wide variety of crafted products that the player base would desire along with many different ways of specializing and creating some sorta unique items. 'new' ways of getting resources and selling products was also expected. After all... in 8 years of playing a game I figured that newer MMOs would have developed/advanced better ways of crafting. For longevity sake, I figured that crafting would take a long time to get proficient at but with many different ways of advancing.
What I experienced.
It felt like the excitment of crafting is gone. What used to be a risk of failing a combine has been reduced to 'never failing'. A significant amount of whats produced is vendor fodder ( an area that I was really hoping to be improved upon ). Resources are so abundant that the challenge of finding resourses is gone. In fact, some skills such as farming can be grandmastered from the vendor. One of the most disappionting aspects are that a craft can be maxxed within days, which hardly supports a longevity of keeping my attention.
---------------
My opinion on combat.
Gone are the days of having to strategically place or 'use skills wisely'. It kinda has a 'zerg' feel to it. If in a group a hunter ( fast dps, paper armor ) agroes right off its so forgiving that there really isnt a focus on agro management. Sure, if enough people are in a group zerging then it can get outta hand but its so forgiving that the 'danger' feel is gone. There are, of course, a few exceptions such as the great barrows dungeon which I found very challenging and exciting. At higher levels this becomes a little more mainstream but it's completely feasable for someone to level to 50 without having to learn intricate parts of playing their character ( ie, just mash buttons ).
-------------
Now, I have never played WoW, but I do think that it has its place as an entry level MMO. Introducing the masses to MMOs should be something that Wow can be very proud of. I think LOTRO will suppliment this cause as well. I'm concerned about the lack of new MMOs with challenge in them. ( I will be trying Eve online as it has reviews for being challenging).
I think the base problem is we have a significant amounts of younger people who are used to getting a gold star on their paper for just turning it in... not necessarily doing that paper extremely well. ie, the 'intant gratification' generation. ( a whole study upon itself ).
In summary,
The bar has been raise as far as graphics, stability and polish.
The bar has been lowered for achievement, challenge, and immersion.
I hope the genre gets turned around before the standard is 'enter level here' and poof... your top level.
If we use your logic then we have to assume that medicority is the highest bar we should look to achieve. I will not disagree that yes WoW has done alot for the genre, but to assume that the majority of it's audience will not one day seek out a game with a little more challenge is like saying once we are able to read a childrens book we need go no further because children's books are the most accessible to everyone. I believe it's this logic which is responsible for the reality t.v. craze as well as Brittany Spears and the like and any of the boy bands who achieved popularity. Who is to say that a person who is introduced to pop music won't one day desire to hear a more complex peace by Mozart. My 6 year old nephew and I watched cartoons together the other day. Does that mean I should abandon tv shows with more adult themes as cartoons are easily more accessible? I think not.
The ideaology that the easier the better is to assume that your audience are ignorant which I believe most businesses believe themselves. With that logic why would anything that might be even remotely challenging be interesting? It wouldn't. The truth be told I am of the opinion that we are not morons and alot of people playing accessible games will eventually migrate to something with a little more meat on it's bones in a genre that they find appealing. WoW is doing great partly because you in the gaming industry mixed with advertising have been ramming it down our throats that this game is the "best mmo ever." Yet have we seen any new mmo come out in the last 2 years that was innovative in any way? WoW has done some good things, but the fact that we then assume that's what everyone else wants we are doomed to see accessiblity be the bar to the downfall of a truly immersive and challenging game.
I think WOW did the stats management right. I have been playing MMO's since UO. I know alot of purists want to manage stats. But guess what in EQ, AC, and lineage 2, 99% of the player base ended up with the same stats unless they need some of the same classes with a variance in stats to open up an ability for raiding/wipe recovery.
The cleric class was like that in EQ. Most clerics had specced into one ability and the guild would have one or two other clerics specced into another ability to help with corpse wipes.
The OP and alot of folks here have valid and well thought out points. Did WOW or any of the new MMORPG's dumb it down or just make it easiers to manage your avatar. I for one hated managing class stats. Most of your stats were locked in stone once you selected it.
I think Blizzard is trying to satisfy everyone and that is their biggest flaw. Go to their whiney forums. Kids and adults alike that never played a MMORPG cry about not having time and want the same things that a guild raiding high end instances. Blizzard makes them, and players still complain about having to put in long times to get instances/raiding done. IMHO that is the biggest problem to old time MMORPG players is all the new folks wanting the same thing that literally took alot of time for players that wanted to develop their avatar and work with a guild to further their character development and see the high end content. I hope this trend goes away. After all they are just pixels.
I hope a good game will come soon as WOW is turning into an online RPG you are paying for. I cannot blame Blizzard for wanting to please everyone as the cost for developing an online game now is astronomical.
WOW is not a bad game. Some things are good about it and it definately has raised the profile of MMO's as a whole to the general public. And it is easy BTW. How long you need to play has no bearing on difficulty.
With that being said I really didn't like playing the game. I've been playing MMO's for about 12 years and to me WOW is MMORPG with training wheels. I think the best possibility is that new MMOers will start with WOW and then move on.
A bad part of this is that many of the newer games are just WOW clones.
Even LOTRO is more like WOW than it should be.
P.S. If you want an MMORPG with no training wheels then try DDO. It is the perfect game for an experienced adult player with gaming time restraints.
"Lowering the bar" to me means: taking the "classic RPG" out of "MMORPG". I am left with a Diet Flavor RPG-lite. Game Content without the sugar high of character-building choices that alter my game play experience. I do not like the newer type of MMO that target ONLY the very casual gamers, and leave me lacking the challenge and detail that I desire.
Here are some CRPGS that did things at least partially "right." In D&D Online you can select a single pre-customized character for your level 1 start, but from then on the player needs to make choices. I can understand how such as game can seem very complicated -- it is based on D&D which is fairly complicated. I think DDO should have offered much more comprehensive advice at the various level-up points so that less experienced players are not as overwhelmed. There should be several pre-determined paths that such players can chose from to see the pre-selected character build before clicking OK or chosing to customize. In Neverwinter Nights 2, the player is given a RECOMMEND button that attempts to make the character building choices for him. The game is easy enough that this selection will be useful, and in fact very few customizations will be "bad" choices.
I think games that want to be easy to newcomers to the genre should follow my recommendation for DDO and the method that NWN2 uses. Have a fairly complex system of character abilities and skills but offer a lot of advice and pre-selected builds so they player that does not care about the detail can just click-and-go and not end up with a crippled character.
World of Warcraft and Lord of the Rings Online could have given its players more options, but they chose to go with optionless character classes where every character is a functional clone of every other character of the same profession. These are not modern role-playing-games and they don't give me the option to play them as such. That is one type of Lowering the Bar and how it is perceived negatively by many people.
To break a few stereo types. I'm not a "classic vet." I'm not I suppose an "Old School" mmo gamer. My first game in the genre was SWG. I've since bounced around looking for an in-depth game. A few have been fun for a bit but I'm not remotely attracted to wow. Spending time with your kids is great but, suggesting the industry standard be a push button childrens game is ridiculous.
It is possible you know to NOT cater to the young crowd and be successful. It is possible to cater to a mature audience and be successful with a video game.
Comments
Steve's comment about DAoC was really right on. I had an avalonian paladin myself, just trying to be different (most were highlanders). There were many times a group would refuse to accept me when they found out I was avalonian because "he can't tank", even though they haven't even seen me do anything yet.
Otherwise the article was dead on. I do not think that Lowering The Bar is a bad thing, unless it's done too much. Although some enjoy excessive stat management, others prefer to just play the game.
I havent heard anyone say that games like WOW shouldnt exist or that it hadnt expanded the scope of the genre, but rather lamenting that its success had skewed the market to where nearly every new game tries to copy it. This would not be bad thing if what they were copying was its polish instead of its simplistic style. Im glad there is an easily accessible game out there, its the lack of diversity that is concerning me. There are some people out there who like immersion, challenge, and a sandbox type game. But the rush to chase the WOW gold has predicated this type game out of the market, and that upsets some people. Surely there is room for more than just the lowest common denonimator, in terms of game-play style.
Having started SWG in 2003, and it being my first MMO, I dont qualify as an "old school" player but simply someone who enjoyed the virtual world aspect of a game. Simplifying that game hasnt really worked out too well, has it.
Reality television is popular too, so I guess it must please some people on some level I just dont understand. Still, I am thankful that there are still at least a few more serious dramas around as well.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
I think that lowering the bar has hurt the gaming community overall. Sure it has allowed young and less sophisticated players to enter the market and enhance profitability (what the game makers truly care about), but it has destroyed the community. Having children in a game lowers the maturity level of the player base making the games less inviting (lets face it children without adult supervervision and no fear of consequences are generally real brats).
There is a place for both types of games in this world, but unfortunatly gaming companies will focus more on the lowered bar style because it is more profitable, and games like Ultima Online, Eve, and the original Star Wars Galaxies where a player could have a real impact on the world are becoming fewer and fewer and the cookie cutter rat obessed clones have become the rule instead of the exception.
<imgsrc="http://files1.guildlaunch.net/guild/library/86975/Black_Fire.jpg">;
<ahref="http://profile.xfire.com/aetiuslonginus"><img src="http://miniprofile.xfire.com/bg/sh/type/2/aetiuslonginus.png"; width="450" height="34" /></a>
I'm somewhat concerned about what I'm seeing.
I pretty much played EQ1 for 8 years and loved the game with the exception of flagging which burnt out sooo many people ( backflagging for those who have already been flagged ) IMO, the single largest mistake that the developers have made.
In fact, I recently became a victim of flagging burn-out, That, coupled with crappy programming I'm in search of a new MMO.
I recently have been beta testing LOTRO and I have begun to see whats becomming of the MMO industry.
In all honesty, in certain areas the bar has been raised.
For instance, I was pleased that the LOTRO dev team has produced incredibly brilliant graphics and a rock solid base for a program. The stability and polish is something I think that may set the standards for future MMOs.
As far as gameplay goes several aspects have become very unchallenging. ( some say 'dumbing down' but I don't want to insult those who like this style of gameplay).
---------------------
I'll compare crafting to what I was expecting to what I experienced.
In EQ, crafting can take years to develop. A max tailor, for instance, has done a lot of work to get there and they have a lot of personal pride in getting there. Through years of gathering, combining, failing, etc. becomming a master tailor is something that earns others respect as well as personnal pride.
I kinda expected LOTRO to be attracting a large crafting player base so was looking forward to experiencing what a newer crafting system would be like. I was expecting a wide variety of crafted products that the player base would desire along with many different ways of specializing and creating some sorta unique items. 'new' ways of getting resources and selling products was also expected. After all... in 8 years of playing a game I figured that newer MMOs would have developed/advanced better ways of crafting. For longevity sake, I figured that crafting would take a long time to get proficient at but with many different ways of advancing.
What I experienced.
It felt like the excitment of crafting is gone. What used to be a risk of failing a combine has been reduced to 'never failing'. A significant amount of whats produced is vendor fodder ( an area that I was really hoping to be improved upon ). Resources are so abundant that the challenge of finding resourses is gone. In fact, some skills such as farming can be grandmastered from the vendor. One of the most disappionting aspects are that a craft can be maxxed within days, which hardly supports a longevity of keeping my attention.
---------------
My opinion on combat.
Gone are the days of having to strategically place or 'use skills wisely'. It kinda has a 'zerg' feel to it. If in a group a hunter ( fast dps, paper armor ) agroes right off its so forgiving that there really isnt a focus on agro management. Sure, if enough people are in a group zerging then it can get outta hand but its so forgiving that the 'danger' feel is gone. There are, of course, a few exceptions such as the great barrows dungeon which I found very challenging and exciting. At higher levels this becomes a little more mainstream but it's completely feasable for someone to level to 50 without having to learn intricate parts of playing their character ( ie, just mash buttons ).
-------------
Now, I have never played WoW, but I do think that it has its place as an entry level MMO. Introducing the masses to MMOs should be something that Wow can be very proud of. I think LOTRO will suppliment this cause as well. I'm concerned about the lack of new MMOs with challenge in them. ( I will be trying Eve online as it has reviews for being challenging).
I think the base problem is we have a significant amounts of younger people who are used to getting a gold star on their paper for just turning it in... not necessarily doing that paper extremely well. ie, the 'intant gratification' generation. ( a whole study upon itself ).
In summary,
The bar has been raise as far as graphics, stability and polish.
The bar has been lowered for achievement, challenge, and immersion.
I hope the genre gets turned around before the standard is 'enter level here' and poof... your top level.
Pal
Palazious <The Vindicators> Darkfall
Palazious r40, rr45 SW War
Palazious 50 Pirate PoTBS
Palazious 35 Sorcerer Vanguard
Palazious 75 wizard EQ
Paladori 50 Champion LOTRO
Poppa Reaver bugged at rank15
If we use your logic then we have to assume that medicority is the highest bar we should look to achieve. I will not disagree that yes WoW has done alot for the genre, but to assume that the majority of it's audience will not one day seek out a game with a little more challenge is like saying once we are able to read a childrens book we need go no further because children's books are the most accessible to everyone. I believe it's this logic which is responsible for the reality t.v. craze as well as Brittany Spears and the like and any of the boy bands who achieved popularity. Who is to say that a person who is introduced to pop music won't one day desire to hear a more complex peace by Mozart. My 6 year old nephew and I watched cartoons together the other day. Does that mean I should abandon tv shows with more adult themes as cartoons are easily more accessible? I think not.
The ideaology that the easier the better is to assume that your audience are ignorant which I believe most businesses believe themselves. With that logic why would anything that might be even remotely challenging be interesting? It wouldn't. The truth be told I am of the opinion that we are not morons and alot of people playing accessible games will eventually migrate to something with a little more meat on it's bones in a genre that they find appealing. WoW is doing great partly because you in the gaming industry mixed with advertising have been ramming it down our throats that this game is the "best mmo ever." Yet have we seen any new mmo come out in the last 2 years that was innovative in any way? WoW has done some good things, but the fact that we then assume that's what everyone else wants we are doomed to see accessiblity be the bar to the downfall of a truly immersive and challenging game.
I think WOW did the stats management right. I have been playing MMO's since UO. I know alot of purists want to manage stats. But guess what in EQ, AC, and lineage 2, 99% of the player base ended up with the same stats unless they need some of the same classes with a variance in stats to open up an ability for raiding/wipe recovery.
The cleric class was like that in EQ. Most clerics had specced into one ability and the guild would have one or two other clerics specced into another ability to help with corpse wipes.
The OP and alot of folks here have valid and well thought out points. Did WOW or any of the new MMORPG's dumb it down or just make it easiers to manage your avatar. I for one hated managing class stats. Most of your stats were locked in stone once you selected it.
I think Blizzard is trying to satisfy everyone and that is their biggest flaw. Go to their whiney forums. Kids and adults alike that never played a MMORPG cry about not having time and want the same things that a guild raiding high end instances. Blizzard makes them, and players still complain about having to put in long times to get instances/raiding done. IMHO that is the biggest problem to old time MMORPG players is all the new folks wanting the same thing that literally took alot of time for players that wanted to develop their avatar and work with a guild to further their character development and see the high end content. I hope this trend goes away. After all they are just pixels.
I hope a good game will come soon as WOW is turning into an online RPG you are paying for. I cannot blame Blizzard for wanting to please everyone as the cost for developing an online game now is astronomical.
WOW is not a bad game. Some things are good about it and it definately has raised the profile of MMO's as a whole to the general public. And it is easy BTW. How long you need to play has no bearing on difficulty.
With that being said I really didn't like playing the game. I've been playing MMO's for about 12 years and to me WOW is MMORPG with training wheels. I think the best possibility is that new MMOers will start with WOW and then move on.
A bad part of this is that many of the newer games are just WOW clones.
Even LOTRO is more like WOW than it should be.
P.S. If you want an MMORPG with no training wheels then try DDO. It is the perfect game for an experienced adult player with gaming time restraints.
"Lowering the bar" to me means: taking the "classic RPG" out of "MMORPG". I am left with a Diet Flavor RPG-lite. Game Content without the sugar high of character-building choices that alter my game play experience. I do not like the newer type of MMO that target ONLY the very casual gamers, and leave me lacking the challenge and detail that I desire.
Here are some CRPGS that did things at least partially "right." In D&D Online you can select a single pre-customized character for your level 1 start, but from then on the player needs to make choices. I can understand how such as game can seem very complicated -- it is based on D&D which is fairly complicated. I think DDO should have offered much more comprehensive advice at the various level-up points so that less experienced players are not as overwhelmed. There should be several pre-determined paths that such players can chose from to see the pre-selected character build before clicking OK or chosing to customize. In Neverwinter Nights 2, the player is given a RECOMMEND button that attempts to make the character building choices for him. The game is easy enough that this selection will be useful, and in fact very few customizations will be "bad" choices.
I think games that want to be easy to newcomers to the genre should follow my recommendation for DDO and the method that NWN2 uses. Have a fairly complex system of character abilities and skills but offer a lot of advice and pre-selected builds so they player that does not care about the detail can just click-and-go and not end up with a crippled character.
World of Warcraft and Lord of the Rings Online could have given its players more options, but they chose to go with optionless character classes where every character is a functional clone of every other character of the same profession. These are not modern role-playing-games and they don't give me the option to play them as such. That is one type of Lowering the Bar and how it is perceived negatively by many people.
To break a few stereo types. I'm not a "classic vet." I'm not I suppose an "Old School" mmo gamer. My first game in the genre was SWG. I've since bounced around looking for an in-depth game. A few have been fun for a bit but I'm not remotely attracted to wow. Spending time with your kids is great but, suggesting the industry standard be a push button childrens game is ridiculous.
It is possible you know to NOT cater to the young crowd and be successful. It is possible to cater to a mature audience and be successful with a video game.