Kind of humorous how even Brad is basically saying that the Vanguard fans did more to hurt the game than help it though. Like many of us have been saying. The "Go back to WoW, n00b" sayers are a lot of the reason that many of us don't want to even try Vanguard. Nice to see him acknowledge that fact. Now if the Vanbois would only get that through there thick skulls...You NEED more people in this game. Brad himself wants WoW people to play. Now...can't we all just...get along?
I think the majority of vanguard players use that as a response to the idiocy of the bashers. . .sometimes those people who say go back to WoW get out of hand, but sometimes they are in the right mode. The bashers that have played aren't going to come back, and the bashers that havent played will probably end up not liking the game. . .
The heart of the matter will always be the developers fault. . it is their own stupidity and laziness that gets them in the schitt. The fans wouldn't have anything to say nor would the would be bashers if the devs worked on performance and mechanics. . .this game was 5 years in the making. . .they had 5 years. . .and they pissed away at least one and one half of those years because of the amount of work they put into combat mechanics that they ended up scrappin. . .
There wouldn't have been as much backlash and fighting about the game if management woulda just came wit it.
My, Brad does like to talk Its just more of him telling it as he sees it, like he says, hes in the game playing it. The one thing I hate is the Vanguard elite snobs, the "go back to wow" crowd, Iv had to stop reading the silky venom site forums coz some of the posters there just cant be playing the same game as me, they say they want the game harder but if thats true why dont they just fight higher lvl mobs? why long posts about how easy they find it all.
Exactly, thats the two faced attitude that many of these people are taking. Hardcore doesn't mean anything about how intelligent you are or how skilled you are at playing your character. . .being hardcore in these games only means that you can invest the time into it to play on easy mode because of the items you can procure. You are not a bad ass because you're a good player, youre just a bad ass because you can put ten hours a day into the game. . . "hardcore" players are probably the first ones to cry nerf when changes come because they want the game easy. . .
When did he write that? Because in SEVERAL interviews right before the game was released he commented on the fact that Sigil prided on the fact this game isn't for the weak of hearted and will tend to be loved by HardCore gamers. It's like he did a 180. And, yes, what does he mean about implementing Viral ads ingame? WTF, Brad. I don't think you get it. Dont get your employees to pose as regular people and then have them post awesome comments on public boards! SWG got caught doing that and it just made things worse for em (Post NGE)
Ah yes !!! Brads famous "Vision".
Welcome to marketing, we got duped like suckers. I think it's time we realize it.
ancient relationship mantra: never stay with somebody based on what they 'could' become. the same goes for mmorpgs. it is what it is. vg suxxors. some people will still go down with the ship, while swearing it's not sinking.
I really enjoyed how much different he comes across now than he did during the development phase, particularly the first three years. There used to be very little talk about making the game more accessible, but now he realizes it is a necessity in today's climate. Hindsight is 20/20, indeed. Brad's Vision, unfortunately, is 20/200.
Furthermore, did anyone else revel in how the Vanbois helped Vanguard fail to clean up at retail? All of these MMORPG geek chest-pounding and holier than thou attitude only served to drive away the millions of MMORPGers who did not want the super hardcore game they talked about and indeed discouraged people from playing.
"Go back to WoW, n00b!" How many times did we hear this when someone discussed the casual game?
And they did go back to WoW, having been repeatedly bashed. And now Vanguard is suffering for it.
I think he sounded down to earth and realistic. I think it took some balls to talk the way he did. That was not at all some carefully drafted up form speech.
There is and will be more content for players of all types. The world is THAT big...with LOTS of room to grow. I traveled that road with Horizons for 3 years..and there is absolutely no comparison. ( as one poster here compared it too )
Horizons was way...way...way worse bug and content wise for the first 6 months.
Horizons is STILL buggier ...over 3 years later ....than Vanguard is. I get the same fps in Horizons as I do with Vanguard. Horizons turned up max BUT ...still much much worse looking than Vanguard set to highest performance....ok.....just high performance maybe...but still.
I appreciate the way he spent special time and directly talked about the Wowbois and the Vanbois tension. This ain't gang riverly yall ! To each his own in my book ! Play online to have fun ! I If you are having fun...then keep playing till you stop having fun anymore....Then finds something else to play till you start having fun again.
* Edit ~ I in no way work for or am associated to Sigil or Sony...
I resent the fact that there are those who would emply that someone pro -vanguard must be paid to be so.
Ever think that their are ALOT of people that like this game? They too busy playing to post on it though...as I'm off to do right now.
Vanguard really is a very good game....I think it wll get only better for a very long time.
Originally posted by Balisidar Kind of humorous how even Brad is basically saying that the Vanguard fans did more to hurt the game than help it though. Like many of us have been saying. The "Go back to WoW, n00b" sayers are a lot of the reason that many of us don't want to even try Vanguard. Nice to see him acknowledge that fact. Now if the Vanbois would only get that through there thick skulls...You NEED more people in this game. Brad himself wants WoW people to play.
This is not just a product of "Vanbois." People in LOTRO beta say the same thing. Basically any time anyone brings up a problem in almost any MMORPG, the rabid fanbois of that game now say, "Go back to WoW n00b" (or the equivalent). It's a stupid thing to say. It's quite possible to like both WOW and other games (I have not played WOW but it just stands to reason). And it's completely ridiculous to assume any time someone doesn't like something about Vanguard, it's because they want it to "be like WOW."
I really enjoyed how much different he comes across now than he did during the development phase, particularly the first three years. There used to be very little talk about making the game more accessible, but now he realizes it is a necessity in today's climate.
Yup. This reminds me so much of the DDO launch without any soloable content that it is uncanny. I watched DDO very carefully through the development phase (big-time old school D&D fan here). I was interested (until I found out it was going twitch-based, which I learned not from them, but from a friend who was in alpha). In any case, at one point on their forums it became known that the game would not have much (if any) soloable content because "D&D is played with game groups."
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
Wow...between the buggy/broken patches and the flip flopping, they're making it pretty hard to have any faith in the game at all. Kind of funny that he turned the tables on the people who've been the most "loyal" to the game (at least in their own minds).
"Then there's the whole WoW vs Vanguard issue where many people think that if they enjoy WoW they won't like Vanguard or vice versa. This is in part again to those pre-conceptions, but also our fan base has contributed to this stereotype. (sorry Vanguard fans, I don't mean to generalize here, but there has been a negative vibe, a polarizing vibe, even with me and others posting that this game is inclusive not exclusive). "
I believe he just basically said it's the fans fault. Enjoy your game, guys,
Here's some Basic Business 101: Let your product speak for itself.
The massive statements this guy makes to defend and publicize his game, they're outrageous. When you have to write a damned essay to explain BASIC problems with your game, that's enough, just stop right there.
I also never fell for the whole "vision" garbage. Anyone can be a visionary; true innovators are also masters of execution.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
I have never in my life seen anyone use that many words to say absolutely nothing of substance. Appreciate the effort, Brad, but it seems to me you're saying that you managed, in trying to reach all those customer groups, to satisfy none of them. And honestly, I think it's too late to start trying now. You only get one chance in this business.
LOL who are you? the chief of the industry? No you dont only get one chance in this business. What a load of crap.
Brad is doing well.. he has a brain to be where he is.. he made EQ1 possible.. and now he has made VG a joy for me and people like me who enjoy these types of MMOs..
jeez. LOL... as if you know how the business is run.
How do you know I'm not?
And please..if you get more than one chance, name me anything that has crashed and burned this hard and turned into a bona fide success. You can't. Your best chance to make a splash is the first 30 days- If you don't, the vast majority of the people who turn away will not come back to you. Some will..but I bet 90% of the paying folks you lose at the start are gone for good. You get one chance to impress most people, and Brad's little toy hasn't done that for almost everyone I met in game. Out of the 20 people I had on my friend's list, 4 of them have been logged in in the last 2 weeks. I bet that's a little over the average, but I'm willing to bet that 50% did not subscribe after the free month.
If you flop right off the bat- and compared to expectations, there's no way you can say this game didn't- you aren't going to be able to come out with "Hey guys come back it's all better now!" three months later and become a huge success. The only time anything even close has happened was with Anarchy Online, and it has never been anything but a niche game. You have one chance to impress everyone. If you don't, it's over. Hello 20-30K subs.
Here's some Basic Business 101: Let your product speak for itself.
The massive statements this guy makes to defend and publicize his game, they're outrageous. When you have to write a damned essay to explain BASIC problems with your game, that's enough, just stop right there.
I also never fell for the whole "vision" garbage. Anyone can be a visionary; true innovators are also masters of execution.
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
I kind of enjoyed Brads post. It would seem that he is starting to understand that his biggest fans are actually hurting his game. That must be a pretty strange spot to be in. You cant really go all out and bash these people because they are paying his bills but still he needs to do something to shut them up. Should be interesting to see where this goes.
I love some of the ideas he has and if they get implimented it could make the game more enjoyable to a larger crowd of people. A hardcore game will only attract hardcore players. You can define hardcore however you want. Unless VG becomes a little more friendly of a game it will only be a niche game. In order to fill this huge world he has created he needs to attract lots of different types of gamers. I hope he can do it. VG has a lot of potential.
He says this and yet in view of update #1, were solo play were more or less removed for many clases I somehow doubt his sincerety. I actually took another month to check update #1 out, I took a station pass though as I figured if this still blows I can give eq2 another whirl. My bard was reduced from a viable solo or "casual" character to something that could barely deal with any mob that could potentially give XP and adequate rewards. As I was mostly geard out in rare crafted the item nerf, ( you know that one that would end up in the item "always being better" ), killed me in one swift blow. I mailed all my nice gear ( the few parts that still were indeed nice ) to a friend who has decided to push on. Game over.
Gimme a break. The damage problems after update 1 were due to coding screw ups. They were fixed the same night. All my characters solo just as well as before.
That is quite the...interesting...post from Brad. I have followed the game for a couple of years now, and everything that Sigil has put out in the past (along with their "viral" marketing) has always preached against the casual player. "For hardcore players" has been their mantra for quite a while now.
It should be interesting to see what affect this has on the game in the next year and how they continue to spin the changes in their favor. It will also be interesting to see how the Vanguard community reacts to Brad trying to convert WoW players over to his game, since the community on these forums as least has made it very clear that WoW players are not welcome in their world.
I always hear this but never get actual quotes. When someone is challenged to come up with one, they never do. It's always only vaguae impressions that are delivered via exactly the kind of freaks who Brad understands has hurt his game. A relatively small cadre of former EQ1 players who wanted the most painful MMO experience possible convinced themselves that VG would give it to them by hearing what they wanted to hear. They pass on this delusional "vision" to others and the virus is truly malevolent.
I have never in my life seen anyone use that many words to say absolutely nothing of substance. Appreciate the effort, Brad, but it seems to me you're saying that you managed, in trying to reach all those customer groups, to satisfy none of them. And honestly, I think it's too late to start trying now. You only get one chance in this business.
LOL who are you? the chief of the industry? No you dont only get one chance in this business. What a load of crap.
Brad is doing well.. he has a brain to be where he is.. he made EQ1 possible.. and now he has made VG a joy for me and people like me who enjoy these types of MMOs..
jeez. LOL... as if you know how the business is run.
How do you know I'm not?
And please..if you get more than one chance, name me anything that has crashed and burned this hard and turned into a bona fide success. You can't. Your best chance to make a splash is the first 30 days- If you don't, the vast majority of the people who turn away will not come back to you. Some will..but I bet 90% of the paying folks you lose at the start are gone for good. You get one chance to impress most people, and Brad's little toy hasn't done that for almost everyone I met in game. Out of the 20 people I had on my friend's list, 4 of them have been logged in in the last 2 weeks. I bet that's a little over the average, but I'm willing to bet that 50% did not subscribe after the free month.
If you flop right off the bat- and compared to expectations, there's no way you can say this game didn't- you aren't going to be able to come out with "Hey guys come back it's all better now!" three months later and become a huge success. The only time anything even close has happened was with Anarchy Online, and it has never been anything but a niche game. You have one chance to impress everyone. If you don't, it's over. Hello 20-30K subs.
You mean like Eve Online which started with about only 20k and now has over 100? Or did you mean EQ which got mediocre reviews, started at only 100k and ended with over 400? Ever successful MMO I know took years to reach its subscription peak.
I wonder how 100k to start has now become a "flop." It's a perfectly respectable begining actually.
Everything prior to sepher 3/09/07 12:53:36 PM is irrellevent (?) The first post I thought was funny, and the second was the correct defenition of viral marketing.
The most common form of Viral Marketing is having people pose as message board posters and say positive things about games.
Basically, they pretend to be regular gamers that like their game, and they try to put a positive spin on everything about a game.
It's shaky ground. When a community finds out it usually turns for the worst, so good viral marketing consists of being a convincing person that blends in with the rest of the public.
Another example of viral marketing is Halo's ilovebees website.
The one thing that really needs to stop for Vanguard to do well is the Vanbois need to stop attacking and comparing it to WoW, and really emphasize the good unique points of the game. Attacking WoW or other MMO's and saying "Vanguard is better" doesn't give anyone any substance or actual material to judge the game off of.
Honesty works for me too. The more people say, "Vanguard has never crashed on me and runs perfectly smooth" the less I want to play because I know it's a lie, and that I would have to eventually meet and deal with these people in Telon somewhere. Nshtiel 3/09/07 12:20:13 PM
To be more precisely, viral marketing does not have to do necessarily with people who act as if they are consumers, viral marketing is mainly word-to-word advertisement by users. Stealth marketing is when a employees, producers etc pretend as if they were consumers and rate their product higher, etc.Tautology 3/09/07 1:04:59 PM
So what I got from it:
--Brad again acknowledges the existence of 'Vanbois', the detrimental cult-center militia of Vanguard that incessantly forge the fallacies of the game into spears they use against the majority that doesn't mistake the game's fallacies as features like they do. In short, the "go back to WoW crowd".
Do you honestly believe this?
I wish he'd go on an all out offensive and crumble the ground beneath that bunch so they have nothing to stand upon. But since they're standing on things like soloing being miserable, levelling tedious and so on, things that they champion...removing those grounds means fixing the game. Not so easy.
I'm not really following this part, but I think in a way you are right. Mcquaid never said it would be easy.
--Besides acknowledging a sect of gamers within Vanguard that wards off some potential buyers, he makes little to NO reference of people playing the game as it is and are displeased with it. He insinuates the only people displeased with the games are the ones who've never given it a chance in the first place and have misconceptions about it.
I have to assume that you're still playing, and I'm sure that Mcquaid appreciates your business. I believe he was trying to get across the fact that VG didn't attract a larger audience, as fewer people are displeased with the game then have accualley tried it, and I would have to agree. Unless you are saying that more people have tried the game then haven't; in wich case, VG is doing incredibly well.
He does though say that a lot of changes NEED to happen to make the game the way it was intended...but so what? Acknowleding the problem isn't the same as fixing it. What's the point of wanting to spread false word of mouth about the game just because you 'intend' for it to be a certain way?
I' attributing the delay of some fixes to VG to Sigil spending more time on thier software that will alter the laws of physics. It is much faster to write what you intend to do, so that people know what it is that you intend to do, then it is fixing things. I have faith however that Sigil will finish thier software miracle and be able to travel in the reverse through time and fix VG before it was released.
Back to the original point, there's people playing the game as it is who have feelings about the game he considers 'misconceptions'. That's ridiculous.
I agree with you to an extent, you do have a point. However, I wouldn't call it original.
--For all his pointing out of the 'Vanbois' and otherwise anti-WoW crowd, he sure does bring WoW up a lot along with some pretty hefty claims that Vanguard is deeper and more challenging...more scarily he seems quite dependent upon Burning Crusades being a flash in the pan.
What gave you this impression? It seemed more to me like he was admitting that releasing at the same time as TBC was not the brightest of ideas. I guess I was raised to believe that admitting when you were wrong or made a mistake was a comendable attribute in a person. It shows moral fiber, and for a man it shows that they can "be a man" about it. Maybe I was raised dif. Maybe this is one of the problems with todays youth, they are rarely taught how to identify respectful behavior; maybe that says a lot for how they are raised, but that's for a dif. thread.
Oh well, all together he's only speaking about potential, what he 'thinks' and the same ol' "this game is for everyone, but don't understand me wrong, it's not for everyone." And we witnessed what that did for the game's initial success.
I guess we disagree again. I didn't get the impression that he was talkign about the "potential" of VG. He is after all the guy in charge at Sigil, and potential is something that us posting on the boards talk about. We don't have the means to turn potential into reality; Mcquaid does, and he's giving us an idea of what his direction is. As for the highlighted part, I was wondering if you would highlight the part of the original post that that line is written in. Or if you could, highlight the line where he says the game is for everyone.
At least he's admitting things like quick travel are needed, less tedium, more soloability and shorter levelling times. Yet he addresses them all as if they need to be carefully given out in moderation as if they're a 'bad' thing, how're you going to reach the crowd that has 'misconceptions' about this game when you treat features that they cherish as a mere bone you're throwing? Speak of all that in a GOOD light and champion innovations of these times rather than addressing them as nuisances you're conforming to simply because you have to. sepher 3/09/07 12:53:36 PM
I missed the line were he said VG needed shorter leveling time, would you mind highlighting that for me. As for the rest of what you wrote. Um...
I just, well wow. Just wow. I'm having a hard time placing that in the original post. I'm not sure I understand what your saying. I keep getting overshadowed by the hostility in the way you wrote that. In your particullar choice of words, and description of the emotion you felt while reading what Mcquaid posted.
Are you for or against these things? If you are for and Mcquaid is just conforming to your desire, then shouldn't you be a little happier. You won!
Anyways.
Why is it that when a "vanboi" posts that they like the game they are lieing? How can anyone be so brash as to accuse one group of people of doing what they themself are doing at that very moment.
No matter what Mcquaid says, no matter what a dev from Sigil posts, there will be those FEW on this site that will take the oportunity to put down, discredit, and all around LIE about anything and everthing they can in an effort to convince a few not to play a game they dislike.
The very unfortunate and sad truth of it is, those that enjoy any particullar game are less vocal and forcefull in thier approach to tell others. VG is one of the best examples of saying, "an angry customer will tell 7 others; while a happy one will tell one." Or something to that effect.
Anyone that appreciates the game is attempted to be made to look as if they work for the company of the game they like; put that same line of thinking on the other track, and it can work both ways. It saddens me to think that some of the people on this site, behaving in this fashion, are adults, or young adults.
It is unfortunate that the ability to discuss something they dislike, in an honest and respectfull fashion, is beyond the capasity of some. Even, sometimes, myself.
I thank the OP for posting this; I found it refreshing to see what Mcquaid thought of the state of OUR game, after all he did make it for us, and will continue playing and looking forward to the progression of VG.
I have never in my life seen anyone use that many words to say absolutely nothing of substance. Appreciate the effort, Brad, but it seems to me you're saying that you managed, in trying to reach all those customer groups, to satisfy none of them. And honestly, I think it's too late to start trying now. You only get one chance in this business.
LOL who are you? the chief of the industry? No you dont only get one chance in this business. What a load of crap.
Brad is doing well.. he has a brain to be where he is.. he made EQ1 possible.. and now he has made VG a joy for me and people like me who enjoy these types of MMOs..
jeez. LOL... as if you know how the business is run.
How do you know I'm not?
And please..if you get more than one chance, name me anything that has crashed and burned this hard and turned into a bona fide success. You can't. Your best chance to make a splash is the first 30 days- If you don't, the vast majority of the people who turn away will not come back to you. Some will..but I bet 90% of the paying folks you lose at the start are gone for good. You get one chance to impress most people, and Brad's little toy hasn't done that for almost everyone I met in game. Out of the 20 people I had on my friend's list, 4 of them have been logged in in the last 2 weeks. I bet that's a little over the average, but I'm willing to bet that 50% did not subscribe after the free month.
If you flop right off the bat- and compared to expectations, there's no way you can say this game didn't- you aren't going to be able to come out with "Hey guys come back it's all better now!" three months later and become a huge success. The only time anything even close has happened was with Anarchy Online, and it has never been anything but a niche game. You have one chance to impress everyone. If you don't, it's over. Hello 20-30K subs.
You mean like Eve Online which started with about only 20k and now has over 100? Or did you mean EQ which got mediocre reviews, started at only 100k and ended with over 400? Ever successful MMO I know took years to reach its subscription peak.
I wonder how 100k to start has now become a "flop." It's a perfectly respectable begining actually.
I agree that 100k isnt bad but I think Brad and company were expecting more. There was a lot of hype about this game and I think if it had been polished and not going up gainst the WoW expansion it would have done a lot better. The early release hurt it in more ways than one.
I really enjoyed how much different he comes across now than he did during the development phase, particularly the first three years. There used to be very little talk about making the game more accessible, but now he realizes it is a necessity in today's climate.
Yup. This reminds me so much of the DDO launch without any soloable content that it is uncanny. I watched DDO very carefully through the development phase (big-time old school D&D fan here). I was interested (until I found out it was going twitch-based, which I learned not from them, but from a friend who was in alpha). In any case, at one point on their forums it became known that the game would not have much (if any) soloable content because "D&D is played with game groups."
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
It's mind-boggling the number of peopel who think that Brad has changed his tune. I followed VG's development since 2003 and it's remained pretty consistent. It was ALWAYS a game that wanted to strike a balance between the old and the new. Always. There was NEVER any indication excpet in some very limited and specific ways in which it was compared to EQ. It was always a matter of borrowing certain aspects from a variety of MMOs. It's just that whenever it was compared with EQ in any way, the hardcore freaks ran with that and tuned everything else out. So when Jeff Butler said they understood over two years ago that people don't have the time to commit to a game as was required in EQ and this this limitation would be reflected in VG, apparently no one heard it! Or they heard it and pretended they didn't.
Here's some Basic Business 101: Let your product speak for itself.
The massive statements this guy makes to defend and publicize his game, they're outrageous. When you have to write a damned essay to explain BASIC problems with your game, that's enough, just stop right there.
I also never fell for the whole "vision" garbage. Anyone can be a visionary; true innovators are also masters of execution.
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
Ok, so my photoshop skills suck. But after having gotten back from the movie, and reading some of the threads here, I was reminded immensely of the film.
Speaking of 300, if you're reading this, and have yet to see the movie. Turn off your damn computer, get out there, and see it. It IS purely awesome.
I really enjoyed how much different he comes across now than he did during the development phase, particularly the first three years. There used to be very little talk about making the game more accessible, but now he realizes it is a necessity in today's climate.
Yup. This reminds me so much of the DDO launch without any soloable content that it is uncanny. I watched DDO very carefully through the development phase (big-time old school D&D fan here). I was interested (until I found out it was going twitch-based, which I learned not from them, but from a friend who was in alpha). In any case, at one point on their forums it became known that the game would not have much (if any) soloable content because "D&D is played with game groups."
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
It's mind-boggling the number of peopel who think that Brad has changed his tune. I followed VG's development since 2003 and it's remained pretty consistent. It was ALWAYS a game that wanted to strike a balance between the old and the new. Always. There was NEVER any indication excpet in some very limited and specific ways in which it was compared to EQ. It was always a matter of borrowing certain aspects from a variety of MMOs. It's just that whenever it was compared with EQ in any way, the hardcore freaks ran with that and tuned everything else out. So when Jeff Butler said they understood over two years ago that people don't have the time to commit to a game as was required in EQ and this this limitation would be reflected in VG, apparently no one heard it! Or they heard it and pretended they didn't.
The way I remember it, but people will continue to spew lies because they are easier to work with, and look better for them, then the truth.
Comments
I think the majority of vanguard players use that as a response to the idiocy of the bashers. . .sometimes those people who say go back to WoW get out of hand, but sometimes they are in the right mode. The bashers that have played aren't going to come back, and the bashers that havent played will probably end up not liking the game. . .
The heart of the matter will always be the developers fault. . it is their own stupidity and laziness that gets them in the schitt. The fans wouldn't have anything to say nor would the would be bashers if the devs worked on performance and mechanics. . .this game was 5 years in the making. . .they had 5 years. . .and they pissed away at least one and one half of those years because of the amount of work they put into combat mechanics that they ended up scrappin. . .
There wouldn't have been as much backlash and fighting about the game if management woulda just came wit it.
http://mentaltruancy.guildportal.com - Friendly Vanguard:Saga of Heroes Qalia based Guild.
ancient relationship mantra: never stay with somebody based on what they 'could' become.
the same goes for mmorpgs. it is what it is. vg suxxors. some people will still go down with the ship, while swearing it's not sinking.
Exactly, thats the two faced attitude that many of these people are taking. Hardcore doesn't mean anything about how intelligent you are or how skilled you are at playing your character. . .being hardcore in these games only means that you can invest the time into it to play on easy mode because of the items you can procure. You are not a bad ass because you're a good player, youre just a bad ass because you can put ten hours a day into the game. . . "hardcore" players are probably the first ones to cry nerf when changes come because they want the game easy. . .
http://mentaltruancy.guildportal.com - Friendly Vanguard:Saga of Heroes Qalia based Guild.
Ah yes !!! Brads famous "Vision".
Welcome to marketing, we got duped like suckers. I think it's time we realize it.
Important Information regarding Posting and You
VG sux for you, Im having fun playing
and even without your sub vg can survive
Furthermore, did anyone else revel in how the Vanbois helped Vanguard fail to clean up at retail? All of these MMORPG geek chest-pounding and holier than thou attitude only served to drive away the millions of MMORPGers who did not want the super hardcore game they talked about and indeed discouraged people from playing.
"Go back to WoW, n00b!" How many times did we hear this when someone discussed the casual game?
And they did go back to WoW, having been repeatedly bashed. And now Vanguard is suffering for it.
Basically, Brad subtly said, 'Hardcore Vanbois, STFU!
I think he sounded down to earth and realistic. I think it took some balls to talk the way he did. That was not at all some carefully drafted up form speech.
There is and will be more content for players of all types. The world is THAT big...with LOTS of room to grow. I traveled that road with Horizons for 3 years..and there is absolutely no comparison. ( as one poster here compared it too )
Horizons was way...way...way worse bug and content wise for the first 6 months.
Horizons is STILL buggier ...over 3 years later ....than Vanguard is. I get the same fps in Horizons as I do with Vanguard. Horizons turned up max BUT ...still much much worse looking than Vanguard set to highest performance....ok.....just high performance maybe...but still.
I appreciate the way he spent special time and directly talked about the Wowbois and the Vanbois tension. This ain't gang riverly yall ! To each his own in my book ! Play online to have fun ! I If you are having fun...then keep playing till you stop having fun anymore....Then finds something else to play till you start having fun again.
* Edit ~ I in no way work for or am associated to Sigil or Sony...
I resent the fact that there are those who would emply that someone pro -vanguard must be paid to be so.
Ever think that their are ALOT of people that like this game? They too busy playing to post on it though...as I'm off to do right now.
Vanguard really is a very good game....I think it wll get only better for a very long time.
Play Vanguard !
The game that sucks less than the rest !
C
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
"Then there's the whole WoW vs Vanguard issue where many people think that if they enjoy WoW they won't like Vanguard or vice versa. This is in part again to those pre-conceptions, but also our fan base has contributed to this stereotype. (sorry Vanguard fans, I don't mean to generalize here, but there has been a negative vibe, a polarizing vibe, even with me and others posting that this game is inclusive not exclusive). "
I believe he just basically said it's the fans fault. Enjoy your game, guys,
The massive statements this guy makes to defend and publicize his game, they're outrageous. When you have to write a damned essay to explain BASIC problems with your game, that's enough, just stop right there.
I also never fell for the whole "vision" garbage. Anyone can be a visionary; true innovators are also masters of execution.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
LOL who are you? the chief of the industry? No you dont only get one chance in this business. What a load of crap.
Brad is doing well.. he has a brain to be where he is.. he made EQ1 possible.. and now he has made VG a joy for me and people like me who enjoy these types of MMOs..
jeez. LOL... as if you know how the business is run.
How do you know I'm not?And please..if you get more than one chance, name me anything that has crashed and burned this hard and turned into a bona fide success. You can't. Your best chance to make a splash is the first 30 days- If you don't, the vast majority of the people who turn away will not come back to you. Some will..but I bet 90% of the paying folks you lose at the start are gone for good. You get one chance to impress most people, and Brad's little toy hasn't done that for almost everyone I met in game. Out of the 20 people I had on my friend's list, 4 of them have been logged in in the last 2 weeks. I bet that's a little over the average, but I'm willing to bet that 50% did not subscribe after the free month.
If you flop right off the bat- and compared to expectations, there's no way you can say this game didn't- you aren't going to be able to come out with "Hey guys come back it's all better now!" three months later and become a huge success. The only time anything even close has happened was with Anarchy Online, and it has never been anything but a niche game. You have one chance to impress everyone. If you don't, it's over. Hello 20-30K subs.
Bite me, Turbine.
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
I kind of enjoyed Brads post. It would seem that he is starting to understand that his biggest fans are actually hurting his game. That must be a pretty strange spot to be in. You cant really go all out and bash these people because they are paying his bills but still he needs to do something to shut them up. Should be interesting to see where this goes.
I love some of the ideas he has and if they get implimented it could make the game more enjoyable to a larger crowd of people. A hardcore game will only attract hardcore players. You can define hardcore however you want. Unless VG becomes a little more friendly of a game it will only be a niche game. In order to fill this huge world he has created he needs to attract lots of different types of gamers. I hope he can do it. VG has a lot of potential.
Gimme a break. The damage problems after update 1 were due to coding screw ups. They were fixed the same night. All my characters solo just as well as before.
I always hear this but never get actual quotes. When someone is challenged to come up with one, they never do. It's always only vaguae impressions that are delivered via exactly the kind of freaks who Brad understands has hurt his game. A relatively small cadre of former EQ1 players who wanted the most painful MMO experience possible convinced themselves that VG would give it to them by hearing what they wanted to hear. They pass on this delusional "vision" to others and the virus is truly malevolent.
LOL who are you? the chief of the industry? No you dont only get one chance in this business. What a load of crap.
Brad is doing well.. he has a brain to be where he is.. he made EQ1 possible.. and now he has made VG a joy for me and people like me who enjoy these types of MMOs..
jeez. LOL... as if you know how the business is run.
How do you know I'm not?And please..if you get more than one chance, name me anything that has crashed and burned this hard and turned into a bona fide success. You can't. Your best chance to make a splash is the first 30 days- If you don't, the vast majority of the people who turn away will not come back to you. Some will..but I bet 90% of the paying folks you lose at the start are gone for good. You get one chance to impress most people, and Brad's little toy hasn't done that for almost everyone I met in game. Out of the 20 people I had on my friend's list, 4 of them have been logged in in the last 2 weeks. I bet that's a little over the average, but I'm willing to bet that 50% did not subscribe after the free month.
If you flop right off the bat- and compared to expectations, there's no way you can say this game didn't- you aren't going to be able to come out with "Hey guys come back it's all better now!" three months later and become a huge success. The only time anything even close has happened was with Anarchy Online, and it has never been anything but a niche game. You have one chance to impress everyone. If you don't, it's over. Hello 20-30K subs.
You mean like Eve Online which started with about only 20k and now has over 100? Or did you mean EQ which got mediocre reviews, started at only 100k and ended with over 400? Ever successful MMO I know took years to reach its subscription peak.
I wonder how 100k to start has now become a "flop." It's a perfectly respectable begining actually.
"Originally posted by Nshtiel
Page 43 in the FOH forums."
That part jumped out at me when I read this in the morning. Was this 43 pages into a thread!?!
Everything prior to sepher 3/09/07 12:53:36 PM is irrellevent (?) The first post I thought was funny, and the second was the correct defenition of viral marketing.
The most common form of Viral Marketing is having people pose as message board posters and say positive things about games.
Nshtiel 3/09/07 12:20:13 PM
Basically, they pretend to be regular gamers that like their game, and they try to put a positive spin on everything about a game.
It's shaky ground. When a community finds out it usually turns for the worst, so good viral marketing consists of being a convincing person that blends in with the rest of the public.
Another example of viral marketing is Halo's ilovebees website.
The one thing that really needs to stop for Vanguard to do well is the Vanbois need to stop attacking and comparing it to WoW, and really emphasize the good unique points of the game. Attacking WoW or other MMO's and saying "Vanguard is better" doesn't give anyone any substance or actual material to judge the game off of.
Honesty works for me too. The more people say, "Vanguard has never crashed on me and runs perfectly smooth" the less I want to play because I know it's a lie, and that I would have to eventually meet and deal with these people in Telon somewhere.
--Brad again acknowledges the existence of 'Vanbois', the detrimental cult-center militia of Vanguard that incessantly forge the fallacies of the game into spears they use against the majority that doesn't mistake the game's fallacies as features like they do. In short, the "go back to WoW crowd".
Do you honestly believe this?
I wish he'd go on an all out offensive and crumble the ground beneath that bunch so they have nothing to stand upon. But since they're standing on things like soloing being miserable, levelling tedious and so on, things that they champion...removing those grounds means fixing the game. Not so easy.
--Besides acknowledging a sect of gamers within Vanguard that wards off some potential buyers, he makes little to NO reference of people playing the game as it is and are displeased with it. He insinuates the only people displeased with the games are the ones who've never given it a chance in the first place and have misconceptions about it.
He does though say that a lot of changes NEED to happen to make the game the way it was intended...but so what? Acknowleding the problem isn't the same as fixing it. What's the point of wanting to spread false word of mouth about the game just because you 'intend' for it to be a certain way?
Back to the original point, there's people playing the game as it is who have feelings about the game he considers 'misconceptions'. That's ridiculous.
--For all his pointing out of the 'Vanbois' and otherwise anti-WoW crowd, he sure does bring WoW up a lot along with some pretty hefty claims that Vanguard is deeper and more challenging...more scarily he seems quite dependent upon Burning Crusades being a flash in the pan.
Oh well, all together he's only speaking about potential, what he 'thinks' and the same ol' "this game is for everyone, but don't understand me wrong, it's not for everyone." And we witnessed what that did for the game's initial success.
I guess we disagree again. I didn't get the impression that he was talkign about the "potential" of VG. He is after all the guy in charge at Sigil, and potential is something that us posting on the boards talk about. We don't have the means to turn potential into reality; Mcquaid does, and he's giving us an idea of what his direction is. As for the highlighted part, I was wondering if you would highlight the part of the original post that that line is written in. Or if you could, highlight the line where he says the game is for everyone.
At least he's admitting things like quick travel are needed, less tedium, more soloability and shorter levelling times. Yet he addresses them all as if they need to be carefully given out in moderation as if they're a 'bad' thing, how're you going to reach the crowd that has 'misconceptions' about this game when you treat features that they cherish as a mere bone you're throwing? Speak of all that in a GOOD light and champion innovations of these times rather than addressing them as nuisances you're conforming to simply because you have to. sepher 3/09/07 12:53:36 PM
LOL who are you? the chief of the industry? No you dont only get one chance in this business. What a load of crap.
Brad is doing well.. he has a brain to be where he is.. he made EQ1 possible.. and now he has made VG a joy for me and people like me who enjoy these types of MMOs..
jeez. LOL... as if you know how the business is run.
How do you know I'm not?And please..if you get more than one chance, name me anything that has crashed and burned this hard and turned into a bona fide success. You can't. Your best chance to make a splash is the first 30 days- If you don't, the vast majority of the people who turn away will not come back to you. Some will..but I bet 90% of the paying folks you lose at the start are gone for good. You get one chance to impress most people, and Brad's little toy hasn't done that for almost everyone I met in game. Out of the 20 people I had on my friend's list, 4 of them have been logged in in the last 2 weeks. I bet that's a little over the average, but I'm willing to bet that 50% did not subscribe after the free month.
If you flop right off the bat- and compared to expectations, there's no way you can say this game didn't- you aren't going to be able to come out with "Hey guys come back it's all better now!" three months later and become a huge success. The only time anything even close has happened was with Anarchy Online, and it has never been anything but a niche game. You have one chance to impress everyone. If you don't, it's over. Hello 20-30K subs.
You mean like Eve Online which started with about only 20k and now has over 100? Or did you mean EQ which got mediocre reviews, started at only 100k and ended with over 400? Ever successful MMO I know took years to reach its subscription peak.
I wonder how 100k to start has now become a "flop." It's a perfectly respectable begining actually.
I agree that 100k isnt bad but I think Brad and company were expecting more. There was a lot of hype about this game and I think if it had been polished and not going up gainst the WoW expansion it would have done a lot better. The early release hurt it in more ways than one.
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
It's mind-boggling the number of peopel who think that Brad has changed his tune. I followed VG's development since 2003 and it's remained pretty consistent. It was ALWAYS a game that wanted to strike a balance between the old and the new. Always. There was NEVER any indication excpet in some very limited and specific ways in which it was compared to EQ. It was always a matter of borrowing certain aspects from a variety of MMOs. It's just that whenever it was compared with EQ in any way, the hardcore freaks ran with that and tuned everything else out. So when Jeff Butler said they understood over two years ago that people don't have the time to commit to a game as was required in EQ and this this limitation would be reflected in VG, apparently no one heard it! Or they heard it and pretended they didn't.
Well said. if you have to explain your product to the consumer then it really isn't that good
Im sure you've heard of the word, ADVERTISING.
Oh wait, you got me! You're a part of the joke.
Lol, speak for itself! That is a funny one.
Ok, so my photoshop skills suck. But after having gotten back from the movie, and reading some of the threads here, I was reminded immensely of the film.
Speaking of 300, if you're reading this, and have yet to see the movie. Turn off your damn computer, get out there, and see it. It IS purely awesome.
We tried to warn them. We told them that even those of us (including me) who prefer to group rather than solo, sometimes just feel like soloing a bit (for whatever reason -- you could name them). But they were adamant. They did not want to listen, and of course the fanbois said, "Go back to WOW if you want to solo" (or "play a single player game"). That's all well and good but then they launched and bombed, and the reality of the market hit them. You basically HAVE to have a soloable set of content now, or you lose massive numbers of potential players. And within weeks of launch they were announcing new "level 1-3 content that is soloable". Like Brad, once the reality of the market set in, they had to change their tune.
He's not fooling anyone though. I barely paid attention to all his Vanguard hype but even I know full well that he was touting the hardcore nature of it and the fact that you could not breeze through it like (according to him and other hardcores) you can through WOW. Now all of a sudden, he finds out that the casual market dwarfs the hardcore market by about 100 to 1 (if not more) and he was losing 99% of his potential market share by being a hard-a$$. Funny, isn't it, how money talks.
C
It's mind-boggling the number of peopel who think that Brad has changed his tune. I followed VG's development since 2003 and it's remained pretty consistent. It was ALWAYS a game that wanted to strike a balance between the old and the new. Always. There was NEVER any indication excpet in some very limited and specific ways in which it was compared to EQ. It was always a matter of borrowing certain aspects from a variety of MMOs. It's just that whenever it was compared with EQ in any way, the hardcore freaks ran with that and tuned everything else out. So when Jeff Butler said they understood over two years ago that people don't have the time to commit to a game as was required in EQ and this this limitation would be reflected in VG, apparently no one heard it! Or they heard it and pretended they didn't.
The way I remember it, but people will continue to spew lies because they are easier to work with, and look better for them, then the truth.