Saddam vs. Bush

Galoot · May 2004

" I see that you guys are well informed."

Why thank you!

"First let me tell you that everyone has the right to say what they want "

Isn't that what we did? Don't you like democracy?

"UN meber is a US-hater and dumb people. great way to speak about your allies"

LOL All one has to do is read the press from your part of the world. Speak about allies? LOL Let alone your first post on this thread.

One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half.
Sir Winston Churchill

hercules · May 2004

Originally posted by Galoot

"but i don't believe because they tried to sell lies where are the WMD that were capable of striking within 45 minutes?"

That came from British intel. They got it from communication intercepts. How long does it take to load an artillery shell?
"the things they used at the UN to get permission to attack? Haven't seen any of them yet."
Then again you prove that either (a) you haven't been paying attention (b) you've been misinformed from that "press" that keeps you so well informed or (c) you simply choose to ignore the things that have been found to be 100% true.

Which is it?

There I have to agree.The 45 mins thing came from British intellege4nce or so cliams Blair.Most of UK knows that was a lie anyhow to make us panic.Blair has done nothing in his term in office but look how to cover his poor management of the NHS by taking us to war.Remember it was one of his own minster's spin doctors that emailed "sept 11th is a good time to bury bad news".

zentusken · May 2004

Originally posted by PLK4LIFE

Originally posted by zenty

Originally posted by Galoot

"If these terms were broken then the armistice ends and we go in and kick their ass, which is what happened.:) "

And I forgot to mention the attempted assassination of Bush 41 which in and of itself was a breach and an act of war.
The Anti's don't have a leg to stand on. That's why they hang their hats on such childish semantic games. But I do find it amusing.

Wow, way to support your oppinions buddy, why don't you go ahead and back up that "this idiot should be voted out of office" comment.

Plz dont talk to me....after all the asinine rhetoric crap you spewed forth i have made up my mind to not even get into a argument with you. Secondly, that was a opinion. How do i back up a comment saying i want him voted out of office? Its just an opinion.

colombdawg · May 2004

Well heres my two cents:

Why exactly did bush go in there>? I think he went in there for economical reasons (the oil) and racism. Where is the man who planned and lead the attack on the Twin towers? Still not captured, in my opnion, SCREW YOU BUSH, focus on Osama Bin Laden, HE IS IMPORTANT, not no Saddam Housein, Bush is a racist and is politically immoral, just look at him. he's southern at heart its no surprise. I'm not trying to stereotype here but I moved from being a yankee into the south and I see a lot of ignorance here.

n2sooners · May 2004

Originally posted by colombdawg

Well heres my two cents:

Why exactly did bush go in there>? I think he went in there for economical reasons (the oil) and racism. Where is the man who planned and lead the attack on the Twin towers? Still not captured, in my opnion, SCREW YOU BUSH, focus on Osama Bin Laden, HE IS IMPORTANT, not no Saddam Housein, Bush is a racist and is politically immoral, just look at him. he's southern at heart its no surprise. I'm not trying to stereotype here but I moved from being a yankee into the south and I see a lot of ignorance here.

I see there being lots of ignorance anywhere you live.

Galoot · May 2004

I'm speachless....

When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber.

Sir Winston Churchill

Galoot · May 2004

"Remember it was one of his own minster's spin doctors that emailed "sept 11th is a good time to bury bad news".

No sorry I don't. I try to stay out of other nation's politics. Whom ever the British people elect as their leader is the leader our president should respect and work with to the best of his/her ability.

I just wish others would extend that same courtesy to us.

Finwe · May 2004

Originally posted by colombdawg

Well heres my two cents:

Why exactly did bush go in there>? I think he went in there for economical reasons (the oil) and racism. Where is the man who planned and lead the attack on the Twin towers? Still not captured, in my opnion, SCREW YOU BUSH, focus on Osama Bin Laden, HE IS IMPORTANT, not no Saddam Housein, Bush is a racist and is politically immoral, just look at him. he's southern at heart its no surprise. I'm not trying to stereotype here but I moved from being a yankee into the south and I see a lot of ignorance here.

Bush is not the best president, and I'd prefer him in office then Kerry. But as for your statement, not only is it ignorant, its moronic.

As for ignorance, ya, there is alot of ignorance in america. But why bring it up? Oh wait....Ignorance in the south i think you're saying....Hrm....Talk about ignorance.

hercules · May 2004

Originally posted by TaskyZZ

Originally posted by Regus
First let me tell you that everyone has the right to say what they want (democracy and freedom of speech) maybe you don't like that.

This is exactly why we are in Iraq... WMD's, terrorists, blah, blah, blah. If this (democracy and freedom of speech) from your post isn't a good enough reason, then what is???

Before we got there, there was no democracy or freedom of speech in Iraq. They were living under a tyrant. But that has changed and is changing for the better.

If you really believe in this concept, then how can you possibly be against what is happening in Iraq? How? In your heart, you must know that those poeple deserve this right as much as any other person in the world.

Regus, you know where us Americans are from. Where are you from? France? (I see some french under your avatar).

But if you are in there to free the poor enslaved Iraqis then why do you trade with countries like china and Isreal?

China is a communist regime with known human right abuse of over 1 billion people!Yet the USA happily trades with them.

Isreal's human rights record is a disgrace but yet again USA is happy to trade with them.

USA history of funding so called "friendly" dictators that sung well for them is there on record for all who wants to know.

Examples -

1)Bin Laden-Yeah the most hated man on Earth now was actually in Afganistan during the civil war there.Money funded by the CIA.Now public enemy number 1 as his attention shifted from the Russians to USA.

2)Manual Noriega-Ruler of Panama .Was close with the CIA and USA government.Loads of pictures of George Bush senior seen with him on record during his time in the CIA.Got booted due to his disagreement with the USA but was held in power and kept close contact with the CIA for many years.

3)Ian Smith-Rhodesia.Held in high regard by the USA and some undeground elements of the UK government.All turned on him when the tide of the war of indpendence was showing.

4)Mobutu Sese Seko-Zaire(congo).Was an instant hit with the USA because he sang and sang "i am an anti communist".Commited numerous human rights abuse,became one of the 6 richest men in the world while turning his country into poverty.Ruled as a a dictator for over 30 yrs.

5)Idi Amin-Uganda.One of the most notorious rulers in history.Many of his officers were CIA trained.

6)Batista- Cuba.Was a prized jewel of the USA as he was very anti communist.Yet he was corrupt ,famous for his totures and made the richer richer and the poor starving.

I can go on and on if you need more proof.Not saying there is one major power not guilty of this.I can quote 100 things UK has and IS doing wrong.But I am not going to sit here and say we are fighting for freedom.

So lets not be a hippocrite and say we are there to free the poor enslaved Iraqis while we are guilty of been partners with many dictators both past and present!

3)

PLK4LIFE · May 2004

Originally posted by zentusken

Originally posted by PLK4LIFE

Originally posted by zenty

Originally posted by Galoot

"If these terms were broken then the armistice ends and we go in and kick their ass, which is what happened.:) "

And I forgot to mention the attempted assassination of Bush 41 which in and of itself was a breach and an act of war.
The Anti's don't have a leg to stand on. That's why they hang their hats on such childish semantic games. But I do find it amusing.

Wow, way to support your oppinions buddy, why don't you go ahead and back up that "this idiot should be voted out of office" comment.

Plz dont talk to me....after all the asinine rhetoric crap you spewed forth i have made up my mind to not even get into a argument with you. Secondly, that was a opinion. How do i back up a comment saying i want him voted out of office? Its just an opinion.

You have quite obviously never debated before... You SUPPORT oppinions. You don't just say random shit with no reasoning. That is what is supposed to set us apart from animals. We have something called reasoning. As for the "asinine rhetoric crap you spewed forth " comment. Just because you don't agree with my oppinions that are based on facts doesn't mean that its rhetoric.

Regus · May 2004

No, you have to understand that i am not against what happened there, he was a tyrant and he had to be replaced. I just don't agree with the way it happened, they used statements to frighten the world so we would agree with an assault, UN didn't raelly agreed with using force so america and a few others went in alone and their feelings were hurt so now suddenly the whole world is anti-US. If they said we will go there and set up a new democracy (partly like in Afghanistan) i wouldn't object because they were honest but now they lied in my eyes and that's the point.

I come from belgium, the dutch part of it anyways. But i use a french quote because i like what it means. that's why it suprises me that US think the whole western world is anti-US, US people came from Europe just a few centurys ago and we wouldn't stab you in the back but we can say what we think just like in a family, i don't always agree with my brothers but that doesn't mean i hate them.

One day all will die, surely you but never I.

Galoot · May 2004

"UN didn't raelly agreed with using force"

Read 1441. After a war, sanctions, threats, more resolutions, and bombing, just what does 'serious consequences' mean? More of the same? Saddam was sitting back and laughing at YOU.

"went in alone and their feelings were hurt "

It has nothing to do with "feelings", it has to do with 11 years of defiance. It has to do with finally holding Saddam accountable. It has to do with holding the UN accountable. It has to do with finally standing up and taking action or sitting down and shutting up. The choice was yours. You made it. We saw it, now live with it.

" If they said we will go there and set up a new democracy (partly like in Afghanistan) i wouldn't object because they were honest but now they lied in my eyes and that's the point."

Then again I must say that you were not paying attention. Why is it that people only hear what they want to hear? Did you honestly think that Saddam would be replaced with a Soviet style dictator?

Galoot · May 2004

"But if you are in there to free the poor enslaved Iraqis then why do you trade with countries like china and Isreal?"

First of all, China and Israel do not belong in the same sentence together.

"China is a communist regime with known human right abuse of over 1 billion people!Yet the USA happily trades with them."

This began for the most part in the 70's during the cold war. China was used to help keep the Soviet Union in check. Yes they were both communist nations but they still had a serious dislike for each other. We simply exploited that dislike. But you must admit that the China of today is a little better than the China of 30 years ago. But they still have a long way to go. Now, the same question could be asked of France as they are now engaged in military cooperation with China.

Now as long as we are talking about dealing with regimes with known human rights violations, then one must ask what European nations are doing trading with Iran and Syria.

"Isreal's human rights record is a disgrace but yet again USA is happy to trade with them."

Israel has every right to protect herself. I do find it rather strange that Europe has no problem funding Yesir Arrowfat and his group of thugs, the ones that plot and carry out suicide attacks directly against Israeli citizens. In other words, Europe is DIRECTLY involved in funding terrorists.

"1)Bin Laden-Yeah the most hated man on Earth now was actually in Afganistan during the civil war there.Money funded by the CIA.Now public enemy number 1 as his attention shifted from the Russians to USA."

'Ol binny came along for the ride. He was not funded by us directly or indirectly. He was there as part of an Arab group that we didn't deal with.

"2)Manual Noriega-Ruler of Panama .Was close with the CIA and USA government.Loads of pictures of George Bush senior seen with him on record during his time in the CIA.Got booted due to his disagreement with the USA but was held in power and kept close contact with the CIA for many years."

Unfortunately, during the cold war we all had to deal with some pretty bad people. The Soviet Union along with their Cuban allies were doing their best to turn South America into a Marxist wonderland. Now stop and think for a moment, what kind of a deal did we make with the devil during WWII? (Stalin)

")Mobutu Sese Seko-Zaire(congo).Was an instant hit with the USA because he sang and sang "i am an anti communist".Commited numerous human rights abuse,became one of the 6 richest men in the world while turning his country into poverty.Ruled as a a dictator for over 30 yrs."

During the cold war?

"4)Mobutu Sese Seko-Zaire(congo).Was an instant hit with the USA because he sang and sang "i am an anti communist".Commited numerous human rights abuse,became one of the 6 richest men in the world while turning his country into poverty.Ruled as a a dictator for over 30 yrs."

During the cold war?

"5)Idi Amin-Uganda.One of the most notorious rulers in history.Many of his officers were CIA trained."

Cold war?

"So lets not be a hippocrite and say we are there to free the poor enslaved Iraqis while we are guilty of been partners with many dictators both past and present!

As I said, during the cold war we had to do things that were at times very very unpleasant. I don't care if it was Asia, Africa or South America the commies had designs on all of these places. We did the best we could to stop it. The alternative would have been by far more 'unpleasant'. So there's nothing hypocritical here. We simply dealt with the cold hard reality of the time. And this must be kept in it's proper context.

n2sooners · May 2004

And while we are speaking about human rights, I have to ask why the US is still associating with the UN?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1952-2004May4.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/02/wsadd102.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/02/ixnewstop.html

Galoot · May 2004

"And while we are speaking about human rights, I have to ask why the US is still associating with the UN?"

I think it's because it makes some people "feel good" that they are part of the "world community". A Utopian view
that one "culture" regardless of it's character is equal to another.

Did I get enough buzz words in?

Regus · May 2004

Europe DIRECTLY supports terrorists, great way to be informed, yep now you got me, no way that's propaganda but thruth. Why don't you start a war against Europe because we are all terrorist here that hate americans and burn their flags. Yeah just nuke us, you don't need others just only americans in the world but not someone who dares to disagree if you do that you get killed.

I must say i really like these republicans opinions, why don't we all go back 150 years in time when there were african slaves on those nice cotton fields and there were no homosexuals then. Only catholics in the world because the rest is evil and corrupt. yep, way better times.

Now i see what reasonable and informed is

One day all will die, surely you but never I.

hercules · May 2004

Galoot you just shot yourself in your leg.

Now you openly admit the USA did support horrible dictators during the cold war.Clearly they did it for their own gain and had nothing to do with what the people wanted.

And clearly you never even heard about half the dictators I listed to start with to even comment on what happened.

Mobutu of zaire for instance came into power when he killed the democratically elected president patrick moloba(spelling of moloba not sure).who was elected by the people by a vast majority and gasp was a communist.So maybe the people there wanted a communist leader and elected him.

Who are you or me to say what type of government the people want?They wanted him but the USA did not and thus pushed in some dictator.

As for China you can't even begin to defend trading with them if the USA is such a great country fighting for the rights of freedom.

Isreal- lets get this straight places like the golan height never belonged to isreal it was land seized during the war and never returned.Palestine is occupied land given to isreal by us brits which honestly we had no right to do.

Let me ask you something say you live in texas and USA was not a world power .Then say China decides all japanese leaving outside japan should move to texas and declare it a country .would you not fight for it?I certainly would.

Stop trying to sound rightous when we all(all meaning those not leaving in some fantasy world) know every country does what it feels is good for their country.

There is no country in this world that fights for the rights of another period.All countries do what they think is good for their country.Trying to hide under an umbrella of lies is what ticks me off.

Galoot · May 2004

"Europe DIRECTLY supports terrorists"

PLO isn't a terrorist organization? Hit a nerve?

So again, being that you worship at the alter of the UN, show me the UN resolutions originating in Europe condemning suicide bombings.

"I must say i really like these republicans opinions"

Well that's good. Now I really wonder if you actually know what there are.

"why don't we all go back 150 years in time when there were african slaves"

You don't have to go back 150 years. It happens in Africa today. Along with other parts of the world. But that doesn't count does it? Oh and by the way... the slave traders were democrats. (from Europe) LOL

"Only catholics "

Ooooo you must really hate Catholics. Oh and I'm not one so I guess I am in the "in crowd"?

Galoot · May 2004

"Now you openly admit the USA did support horrible dictators during the cold war.Clearly they did it for their own gain and had nothing to do with what the people wanted."

Shot myself in the foot? I don't think so. It was the west vs communism. In WWII it was us against Nazism along with Stalin. One of histories worse dictators.

"And clearly you never even heard about half the dictators I listed to start with to even comment on what happened."

You'd be assuming too much. Most yes but admittedly not all.

"Mobutu of zaire for instance came into power when he killed the democratically elected president patrick moloba(spelling of moloba not sure).who was elected by the people by a vast majority and gasp was a communist.So maybe the people there wanted a communist leader and elected him."

Yes I'm starting to get the picture. Communists most often have free and fair elections.

"Who are you or me to say what type of government the people want?They wanted him but the USA did not and thus pushed in some dictator.

During the cold war?

"As for China you can't even begin to defend trading with them if the USA is such a great country fighting for the rights of freedom."

I never said that I agree with it. (another assumption on your part) Some argue that trade opens up closed societies, some argue that they should be isolated. (which is where I most often fall) Cuba is a good example.

"Israel- lets get this straight places like the golan height never belonged to isreal it was land seized during the war"
The moral of the story is: If you attack a nation in an effort to take their land, and you loose that war and with it some territory, tough don't attack."

Palestine is occupied land given to isreal by us brits which honestly we had no right to do.

And so there was never ever any Jews there....

"Let me ask you something say you live in texas and USA was not a world power .Then say China decides all japanese leaving outside japan should move to texas and declare it a country .would you not fight for it?I certainly would."

Not analogous see above.

"Stop trying to sound righteous when we all(all meaning those not leaving in some fantasy world) know every country does what it feels is good for their country."

Hmmmm..seems to me I always said that we had a right to defend ourselves. But if that is too self-righteous for you then so be it. I've posted more than enough links that back up my claim.

And if enforcing a ceasefire or UN resolutions is too self-righteous also then the UN should go the way of League Of Nations.

zenty · May 2004

Originally posted by PLK4LIFE

Originally posted by zentusken

Originally posted by PLK4LIFE

Originally posted by zenty

Originally posted by Galoot

"If these terms were broken then the armistice ends and we go in and kick their ass, which is what happened.:) "

And I forgot to mention the attempted assassination of Bush 41 which in and of itself was a breach and an act of war.
The Anti's don't have a leg to stand on. That's why they hang their hats on such childish semantic games. But I do find it amusing.

Wow, way to support your oppinions buddy, why don't you go ahead and back up that "this idiot should be voted out of office" comment.

Plz dont talk to me....after all the asinine rhetoric crap you spewed forth i have made up my mind to not even get into a argument with you. Secondly, that was a opinion. How do i back up a comment saying i want him voted out of office? Its just an opinion.

You have quite obviously never debated before... You SUPPORT oppinions. You don't just say random shit with no reasoning. That is what is supposed to set us apart from animals. We have something called reasoning. As for the "asinine rhetoric crap you spewed forth " comment. Just because you don't agree with my oppinions that are based on facts doesn't mean that its rhetoric.

Nope i don't listen to "oppinions" only opinions.........and you responded..plz dont again......

Malkavian · May 2004

Enough "opinions" have been made on this thread/subject.

Locked.

- Malkavian

"When you find youself sinking into Madness, dive" - Malkavian Proverb

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