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Class Roles: Instances

kaskuskaskus Member Posts: 105
i have notice that many questions are coming out regarding this issue, so i decided to took research for it ..

wish that this 'researched guide' will help a lot of gamers (especially new ones) out there...



What a lot of people don’t understand when they begin playing a game like World of Warcraft (WoW) is that their choice of class is very important when it comes to the type of role the character is expected to play in a group. Understandably, the reasons that lead a player to roll a particular class do not always align with how the class best benefits a group. This is especially true when the character is in a small guild, where organizing a group to complete an instance requires certain roles in the group to be played very well. After Blizzard lowered the player cap in the non-raid end-game instances from 10 to five, assembling the right classes, played the most effective way possible, is more important than ever. Unfortunately, a lot of players don’t really understand what roles their classes are expected to play, and their groups tend to suffer because of this.



This guide is not meant to be a highly-detailed look into every class, nor will it discuss the details of different talent builds for WoW classes. Rather, this guide is meant to explain group dynamics specifically as it applies to five-man instances, though much of what follows is also applicable to larger groups in both PvE and PvP environments, and can be adjusted accordingly.



Mandatory Role 1: Main Tank



Capable classes: Druid (Feral), Protection Warrior




The Main Tank (MT) is the front-runner of any group, whose job it is to always be in the middle of the fray, getting hit by enemies so that the enemies don’t go off and hit the MT’s allies. Contrary to the beliefs of many would-be MTs, however, the MT is not able to do his job by wearing heavy armor alone. Rather, the MT can only do his job by keeping the attention of enemy mobs on himself (”holding aggro”), which is only possible by doing significant damage, or taunting enemies. This is an immensely important point, because where most would-be MTs fail is in their inability to properly hold aggro; the term “tank” is not synonymous with “damage soaker”, as this is only part of what a tank does.



There are only two classes in WoW capable of being a MT: the Warrior, and the Druid. While the Paladin can take a very firm beating and still survive, and even do decent damage later in the game, the Paladin simply doesn’t have the ability to taunt opponents, which is often necessary to keep allies alive. As a result, despite the Paladin’s high armor, he is unable to be the MT in a group.



Unfortunately, many Warriors decide not to spend talent points in the right places, which could have a drastic effect as to how well they can play the role of MT. For example, many Warriors decide to focus heavily on the Fury talent tree, which may give the Warrior excellent damage-per-second (DPS), but will do little in the way of helping the Warrior tank. As noted, damage is only one of three factors that make up a MT. While the Fury tree may be excellent for Warriors who primarily engage in PvP battles, it is a poor build for instances, and very often, Warriors who are used to dealing damage through their Battle and Berserker stances fail to be effective in a group setting, where the Defensive stance, along with a one-hander and shield is preferred.



The Warrior’s Protection tree is ideal for a MT, as exemplified by such talents as Defiance (a blanket threat increase on all attacks made by the Warrior), and Improved Taunt (letting the Warrior use his Taunt ability more often). In addition, the Protection tree allows a Warrior to get more and better use out of his shield. While it is tempting for many Warriors not to use a shield so as to do more damage, it should be noted that it is not the MT’s job to deal out mass damage, but rather to dish out only enough damage to compliment his taunts, such that all aggro is on himself; without exception, any Warrior who intends to be the MT should use a shield, as a shield-less warrior simply does not have the armor potential to MT properly. Even with epic-level armor, a shield-less Warrior will require more heals, and become a greater liability to the group as a result.



The Warrior’s Arms tree is also quite useful, and allows the Warrior to increase his ability to parry (for surviving longer), and to hold Rage between stances (with Tactical Mastery). This is quite useful, since fights may begin with the Warrior charging in and using Sweeping Strikes to attack nearby opponents, which gathers aggro from numerous enemies at once. With abilities in the non-defensive stances, the Warrior can initially hold aggro with high-damage attacks, but should enemies begin to ignore the Warrior in favor of his allies, Tactical Mastery allows the Warrior to switch to the defensive stance and taunt enemies accordingly, and still have Rage left to power abilities in the defensive stance. This flexibility allows the Warrior to properly damage, taunt, and soak damage, which are the three requisites of a MT.



Unique to the Warrior are an array of abilities that have a high threat associated with them, such as Sunder and Revenge. A proper combination of these types of abilities will ensure that anyone the Warrior engages remains focused on the Warrior.



The only other class capable of being a MT is the Druid, as the Druid’s bear form not only matches the armor of a plate-wearing class, but the Druid can also taunt in bear form. While the Druid pales in comparison to a shield-toting Protection-specced Warrior, the Druid can easily serve as MT in almost any instance in the game. With the Druid’s Swipe ability, he may draw aggro from numerous enemies (akin to a Warrior’s Sweeping Strikes), and can immediately taunt enemies without the need to switch stances. Talents such as Feral Instinct in the Feral tree increase a Druid’s threat using attacks in bear form, and talents such as Heart of the Wild are blanket stamina increases to keep the Druid alive longer. While the Druid does not have as many abilities to pick and choose from as the Warrior does when tanking is concerned, the Druid can nonetheless utilize an area-of-effect (AoE) debuff, as well as Faerie Fire, to keep up his aggro. What a Druid lacks in shield use, he makes up for in (generally) a higher base armor, and he relies more on damage production to hold aggro than the shield-toting Warrior.



Unless there is no Hunter in the group, the MT should always pull mobs, as it immediately directs aggro in their direction. A Warrior can use a ranged weapon to accomplish this, while a Druid can use any of his caster abilities, but should use something hard-hitting, such as a Starfire followed by a Moonfire. If the instance is not indoors, a Druid MT can also use Entangling Roots for crowd-control, taking one enemy out of the fray.



Once enemies are close, the MT should use a multi-enemy attack or AoE debuff, cementing aggro on enemies that were not the MT’s main target. At this point, the MT should attack as fervently as possible, using available stuns to decrease the number of enemies attacking at any given time, and using taunts to keep enemies on them. Taunts should be used freely and when available, such that there is an assurance that all enemies on the MT stay on the MT. By cycling through enemies that are already on the MT, and using high-threat abilities accordingly, the group gains an assurance that there will always be enough enemies around the MT that multi-enemy attacks get their maximum effect. Only when the MT is taking so much damage that heals aren’t keeping up should the MT back off on using his highest-threat attacks.



In regards to taunts, there is a very important thing to remember: taunts do not have any effect on enemies that are already focused on the tank. Imagine that aggro is a numerical value that can be increased by pure damage or by certain abilities that have a high threat associated with them. When a tank loses aggro, a taunt makes the tank’s threat equal to the threat of the individual who pulled aggro off the tank. Therefore, if the tank is unable to increase his threat immediately after the taunt, the taunt will be ineffective. This is why a taunt should ideally always be followed by a high-threat attack.



Mandatory Role 2: Main Healer



Capable classes: Druid (Restoration), Priest




Every group, in order to survive, needs a character able to heal her allies. It is the job of the Main Healer (MH) to use whatever healing abilities are available for maximum effect. While there are four classes in the game capable of using healing spells, only two of these classes have the flexibility and healing efficiency to play this role: the Priest, and the Druid.



The two significant differences between the Priest and the Druid when healing is in how their respective healing abilities work. The Priest has the ability to heal almost instantly (Flash Heal), while the Druid does not. As a result, the Druid generally needs to wait until his ally’s health is much lower before applying a heal. However, the Druid’s advantage in combat is that her heals have healing-over-time (HoT) effects much better than those of the Priest.



Regardless of whether the MH is a Priest or Druid, she should spend a significant number of talent points in the appropriate tree, be it Holy for Priests, or Restoration for Druids. Gear that is high in Spirit and +healing is ideal for MHs, with Intellect being secondary.



It is the primary job of the MH to focus efforts on keeping the MT alive. If the MT is doing his job, he is minimizing who else in the party is getting attacked. As such, the MH has the luxury of healing one person rather than five, and can best do this by using healing abilities that do not over-heal. (Over-healing is when a heal brings the target to 100% health, and could have done so even if the target’s health were lower when the heal was applied. This is mana inefficient, as more mana was used for the heal than was necessary, since the maximum effect of the heal could not be realized.) Overhealing can be prevented by using lower levels of a particular healing spell, or using an appropriate user-interface (UI) modification that automatically selects the level of the healing spell to be used for a particular heal.



For a Priest, the Flash Heal spell is ideal to apply to the MT, while Renew is ideal for a Druid. Keeping a HoT spell active on the MT at all times while the MT is taking damage is also preferable.



Many inexperienced priests believe that Power Word: Shield (PW:S) is useful when applied to an ally, but in most cases such is false. Since PW:S prevents damage to a tank, the tank is unable to generate Rage from his opponent’s attacks, thusly decreasing his effectiveness. Furthermore, when surrounded by enemies, the mana used on PW:S is too high for the benefit PW:S provides, and the priest could have better used her mana on an actual heal. Furthermore, the aggro directed at the Priest for casting PW:S is another reason that it should be avoided. Generally, PW:S should only be used when the target’s health is too low to get a proper heal off.



If things go bad, and the MH is being attacked, there are a couple things that can be done. Firstly, if the MH is a Priest, she should cast Fade in an effort to remove aggro such that someone else can pick it up. Should that not work, the Priest can use PW:S to survive long enough for someone else to gain aggro back, else cast Fear as a last resort to keep the enemy at bay. Under no circumstances should the MH attack, however, since this will do nothing but make it more difficult to draw aggro off the Priest; even if being attacked, the Priest is a much greater aid to the party by continuing to heal the MT, and should not defend herself by casting offensive spells, or using her weapon or wand.



If the MH is a Druid, by nature of her armor class, she will survive direct attacks longer. A Druid can also switch into cat form and use the Cower ability to remove aggro. In most cases, like the Priests’s Fade, this will be enough to get the enemy away. It is worth repeating that the MH should never attack an enemy, as the MH’s damage is negligible compared to the aggro it will produce and the harm it will therefore bring upon the party.



While the general rule of thumb is that an MH should not engage offensively, there are some exceptions. If a few more hits are enough to bring the last enemy down, the MH may as well use offensive spells if he does not expect any more healing to be necessary. Similarly, in an engagement where the experienced MH does not expect to pour his entire mana pool into heals, the MH can use lower-threat attacks to help the group out. Fortunately, since patch 1.10 and the Priest revamp, an offensive non-shadow spec is possible, giving the Priest the option of using Holy spells to help his group do damage without the threat-generation that shadow spells natively provide.



While it is the MH’s job to keep the party alive, all efforts should be put into keeping the MT healthy, even if this means losing someone else in the party. The MT is the glue that keeps enemy aggro focused, and if he falls, the MH will likely be next.



Since the MH needs to conserve mana as much as possible, there are some classes that the MH should spend less time healing, since they should be able to take care of themselves. In reality, in addition to the MT, the only person a MH should have to heal on a routine basis is the Off-Tank.



Suggested Role 1: The Off-Tank



Capable classes: Druid, Hunter (Beast Mastery), Paladin, Shaman, Warlock (Demonology), Warrior



Any character capable of being the MT can serve as an Off-Tank (OT), since the OT benefits from the same three factors as a MT: armor, damage, and taunts. However, the OT does not necessarily require the ability to taunt, which allows the OT to be played by Warriors without a focus in the Protection talent tree, as well as Druids not heavily invested in the Feral tree, Paladins, and even Shamans.



It is the OT’s role to keep enemies off the MH. Even a good MT can lose enemies to the aggro generated by a MH’s healing spells. While the MT is busy fighting numerous enemies at a time, sometimes other enemies will aggro and won’t be within the MT’s striking range. For example, a Druid’s Swipe ability will strike up to three enemies, but a fourth enemy won’t be struck, and unless taunted, will be happy to attack the MH instead of the MT. As such, it is the OT’s job to make sure that fourth enemy stays occupied.



Since the OT will rarely need to fight more than one or two enemies at a time, the OT doesn’t need quite the armor a MT does, though it never hurts. However, the OT can forego some armor if it means significantly greater DPS, which allows the OT to steal aggro away from the MT should the MT be having too tough a time. In lieu of taunts, a class such as the Paladin or Shaman can bring benefits to a group and still grapple aggro from the MH, or from a MT who’s bitten off more than he can chew. While the Paladin has the armor and threat-production abilities to be a good OT, the Shaman can draw aggro with his enormous DPS, which can then quickly put an enemy down.



While the OT who is a Druid, Paladin, or Shaman can usually heal himself, since the OT can help minimize damage taken by the MT, and may have to attack numerous enemies should the MH get mobbed by same, the OT is better off using his mana offensively than defensively. That said, there is no excuse for an OT dying with a filled mana pool; an OT should only expect heals from the MH if he is actually making use of his mana pool, or in the case of a Druid, does not have the opportunity to switch forms.



Two classes, with interesting abilities that allow them to potentially OT well, are the Hunter and Warlock, who each have pets capable of drawing aggro by way of taunts. A Hunter, who has significantly invested in the Beast Mastery talent tree, has the ability to OT so long as he does not use high-threat abilities, and instead leaves threat-production to his pet. Similarly, a Warlock who has heavily invested in the Demonology tree can OT, so long as he properly manages his spells, particularly those that deal shadow damage (which are high threat). Unlike other OT-capable classes, the Hunter and Warlock require much greater management of battlefield resources, though the benefits are great: Hunters can heal their pets when health gets low, and can reduce aggro with pet abilities like Cower or with native abilities such as Distracting Shot, and Warlocks can siphon health from enemies firmly stuck to the MT, while siphoning that health back to their pet. In the case of both these classes, they should rarely, if ever, require healing from an ally, since they can easily use bandages while their respective pets fight.



Note that while there are a number of capable OT classes, only two of them (the Hunter and Warlock) have talent-tree requirements. All others may benefit from their talent-point distribution, but do not require a particular build to OT efficiently.



Suggested Role 2: The Off-Healer



Capable classes: Druid, Paladin, Priest, Shaman




The Off-Healer (OH) is not a dedicated healer, and is more of a combat-healer than anything else. In cases where the group simply gets mobbed unexpectedly, or a boss battle is going on too long, the MH may simply not have the mana pool to keep up with the damage the MT and the OT are taking. Enter the OH, who should be able to fight in some capacity, and yet still heal a group.



Excellent OHs are Druids, who can play supporting combat roles in bear or cat forms while conserving their mana pools. If the MH’s mana pool goes dry, a Druid can simply switch to caster form, and use her unused mana pool to let the MH regenerate mana. Other classes that do well in this role are the Paladin and Shaman, who, when not playing the OT, can conserve their mana by not using mana intensive attacks, such that they have enough in reserve to cover healing issues. Both the Paladin and Shaman have talent trees specifically devoted to healing, and focusing on these respective trees will allow these classes to very effective OHs, and replace the MH if she gets killed.



The OH, while serving as backup for the MH, should also watch other group members. Since it is the MH’s primary responsibility to heal the MT, the OH should primarily watch everyone else in the group, and make sure their healing needs are covered while the MH is busy.



Suggested Role 3: The Damage Dealer



Capable classes: Druid (Feral), Hunter, Mage, Rogue, Shaman (non-Restoration), Warlock (Destruction), Warrior (Fury)




While survivability is needed in a group, being able to kill mobs quickly tends to minimize damage taken to the group. Enter the Damage Dealer (DD), whose responsibility is to do nothing short of issuing strong attacks. Numerous classes are capable of playing this role, though certain talent-trees are better-suited than others, and being able to deal damage can also be very dependent on what gear a character is carrying. It is important to realize that the DD should be able to hit hard, but not draw too much aggro. If the DD does draw aggro, they should be able to lose it quickly, and ideally, heal themselves.



A Druid properly specced with Feral talents, who attacks in cat form, is an excellent damage-dealer. Since the Druid can Cower to lose aggro, the Druid has the ability to back off from a fight and heal himself. Since patch 1.08, Blizzard has begun putting more Feral-specific gear in the game, allowing decently-equipped Druids to compete on the DPS meters with the traditional DPS classes.



Hunters are very viable damage dealers, with the bonus of having a high survivability thanks to their attacks being ranged. Since they do not need to use their pets to hold aggro in most situations, removing Growl from the pet auto-cast state and targeting the MT’s or OT’s target effectively gives Hunters free DPS without worry of having their pet get killed. When Growl is properly used to take attention of an add, a Hunter can deal damage to two enemies at once, and has abilities like Multi-Shot and Volley to attack additional targets when necessary.



The Mage is the highest multi-target DPS-class in the game thanks to his superior AoEs. A ranged class like the Hunter, the Mage is capable of dealing tremendous DPS when using fire-based attacks. However, the Mage’s enormous DPS tends to pull aggro very quickly, so to counter this, the Mage needs to use snares to keep enemies off himself, slow down the rate of casting to slow down aggro generation, or rely heavily on the OT to keep himself alive. That said, in cases where the Mage has been damaged, it is his job, when not engaged in combat, to bandage himself accordingly, conserving the mana of the group’s healers. Given the speed at which the Mage can take enemies down, he has ample time between kills to apply a first aid bandage before again attacking. With high spirit, the Mage can usually generate mana during this bandaging. Also, a Mage’s crowd control is very effective, as he can turn any living humanoid enemy into a sheep to make the battle easier on the group, or give him enough time to use a bandage. In all multi-enemy confrontations, the Mage should always have at least one enemy turned into a sheep.



The Rogue is arguably the highest single-target DPS-class in the game when played correctly. His use of poisons, fast weapons, and properly using Vanish and Preparation to add an extra Ambush attack are priceless. When a Rogue has drawn too much attention from an enemy, they can Feign to lose aggro, and have abilities like stuns and Blind to give them time to use bandages. A well-played Rogue should also rarely require heals. Additionally, a Rogue’s Sap ability allows the Rogue to take any humanoid target out of combat, akin to a Mage’s Sheep spell, albeit limited to the beginning of combat.



Shamans are highly-offensive, and spending points in Elemental and Enhancement merely solidify this. With Windfury on a slow two-handed weapon, Shamans can supplement their already frightening attacks with high-level shocks, which are instant attacks. With the ability to heal, Shamans can try to conserve some mana to keep an extra heal handy to help out the MH.



A Warlock who has invested in the Destruction tree has highly-potent attacks which, albeit not incredibly mana-efficient, deal enormous amounts of damage. Add to this the Warlock’s ability to place damage-over-time (DoT) spells on numerous enemies at once, and the Warlock becomes an intimidating adversary.



While all Warriors can do damage well, the Fury Warrior emphasizes damage over the previously-discussed builds, and foregoes the ability to draw aggro away from his allies in an effort to simply kill faster. In this, the Warrior does excellent work, and in a tight situation, can change stances to taunt if necessary.

Comments

  • ChamonixChamonix Member Posts: 4

    GREAT JOB

    It really helps alot!

  • saniceksanicek Member UncommonPosts: 368

    Researched guide... aka... 2nd hand info?

    How long do you actually play the game, how many chars you tried (tried = experienced endgame with) ?

    Post-BC protection paladins are tanks on equal footing with warriors and druids. For multimob tanking they are actually the best alternative out there.

    Healers - any of the 4 healing capable classes can serve as main healer. A holy specced paladin or resto shaman are equally good healers as priests and druids and perfectly capable of mainhealing instances. Actually shaman or paladin might be preferable before druid in case you have only one slot available because they can ressurect.

    DD - any class can serve as damage dealer with the right spec. Multirole classes all have at least one DD talent tree and for the DD classes the trees are just flavors of how to do the damage. Shadow priests, retri paladins, moonkin druids, arms warriors are also fully capable damage dealers and tbh I have no idea why you list only one spec of warlock as DPS, what role do you expect the other 2 specs will perform? Demonology and affliction locks are equaly good damage dealers.

    There are some other strange mentions, like mentioning healers drawing agro in the offtank sectio, um the dps classes are much more concerned with this, any tank that cant keep mobs off the healers by properly getting sufficient agro on each to prevent loosing them to just the healing generated agro is a joke. Offtanks are only necessary where the mobs are powerfull enough that they cant be tanked in multiples by one char.  Another strange thing, an offtank that can heal himself? You can tank or heal, you cant do both at the same time, you cant expect a shaman or paladin to heal themselves while tanking a mob.

    You also altogether skipped 3 role categories, crowd control, buffing and out of combat support.

    Anyway, good attempt, I can give you that, but needs some work still.

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  • cupertinocupertino Member Posts: 1,094
    A great guide but is pre-TBC, but good info for new players picking a class and role in the game.



    As said holy pally can solo heal a 5man group just fine, a BM spec hunter can be MT in 5 man dungeons too, My (full BM) pet MT'd Slave pens, ofc not as good as druid or warrior, but let the pet get in 2 growls and its nuke away.  Was fun but not recommened.

    image

  • AntipathyAntipathy Member UncommonPosts: 1,362
    Originally posted by cupertino

    A great guide but is pre-TBC, but good info for new players picking a class and role in the game.



    As said holy pally can solo heal a 5man group just fine, a BM spec hunter can be MT in 5 man dungeons too, My (full BM) pet MT'd Slave pens, ofc not as good as druid or warrior, but let the pet get in 2 growls and its nuke away.  Was fun but not recommened.
    Pets make fine off tanks, but didn't you have trouble when the pet had to tank more than one mob? I know some pets e.g. bats have AOE attacks, but my instincts are that at high levels the AOE attacks won't be enough, and the healer will pull eventually aggro from any mob that hasn't been directly targeted by a growl.
  • AethiosAethios Member Posts: 1,527


    Originally posted by Antipathy

    Originally posted by cupertino
    A great guide but is pre-TBC, but good info for new players picking a class and role in the game.

    As said holy pally can solo heal a 5man group just fine, a BM spec hunter can be MT in 5 man dungeons too, My (full BM) pet MT'd Slave pens, ofc not as good as druid or warrior, but let the pet get in 2 growls and its nuke away.  Was fun but not recommened.


    Pets make fine off tanks, but didn't you have trouble when the pet had to tank more than one mob? I know some pets e.g. bats have AOE attacks, but my instincts are that at high levels the AOE attacks won't be enough, and the healer will pull eventually aggro from any mob that hasn't been directly targeted by a growl.

    I use a gorilla pet on my BM-spec Hunter for tanking in my guild. Thunderstomp generates extra aggro on any mob within a certain radius, and it's more than enough to avoid pulling aggro, at least for now.

    I can also use Intimidation on mobs for a good burst of aggro, and switching targets in mid-fight to spread aggro is always useful. After all, warriors have to do that, too.

  • cupertinocupertino Member Posts: 1,094
    tanking 2 was ok, 3 was tricky but CC sorted that, to tank 2 as full BM, I used a boar what has a charge skill, that causes alot of aggro.



    So 2 mobs, I would do the following on mob 1 charge + growl + intimidation thats enought to keep the mob interested in my pet, i then direct my pet to attack and focus on mob 2, then when growl goes off on mob 2 the rest of the test take it down, then back to mob 1.



    I did this from lvl 61-66 beyond 66 it got harder and spec back to marksman.  Was good fun though.

    image

  • AntipathyAntipathy Member UncommonPosts: 1,362
    Many inexperienced priests believe that Power Word: Shield (PW:S) is useful when applied to an ally, but in most cases such is false. Since PW:S prevents damage to a tank, the tank is unable to generate Rage from his opponent’s attacks, thusly decreasing his effectiveness. Furthermore, when surrounded by enemies, the mana used on PW:S is too high for the benefit PW:S provides, and the priest could have better used her mana on an actual heal. Furthermore, the aggro directed at the Priest for casting PW:S is another reason that it should be avoided. Generally, PW:S should only be used when the target’s health is too low to get a proper heal off.

    Power word shield has it's uses. It's often the fastest 'heal' available, and can be the only way to keep an AoEing mage alive.



    Another tactic is to cast PW:S on the main tank a few seconds before the pull. Since it is cast before the fight, the healer draws absolutely no aggro and with proper equipment the small amount of mana used is regenerated before another heal is necessary. What could be better than mana free, aggro free healing? Even if it slows down rage generation, all that means is that the dps has to pace itself accordingly (but good dps shouldn't attack anyway unless they see two sunders on a target.)
  • SunriderSunrider Member UncommonPosts: 527

    [quote]Originally posted by Kaskus
    [b]


    The Rogue is arguably the highest single-target DPS-class in the game when played correctly. His use of poisons, fast weapons, and properly using Vanish and Preparation to add an extra Ambush attack are priceless. When a Rogue has drawn too much attention from an enemy, they can Feign to lose aggro, and have abilities like stuns and Blind to give them time to use bandages. A well-played Rogue should also rarely require heals. Additionally, a Rogue’s Sap ability allows the Rogue to take any humanoid target out of combat

    Woa woa woa there big guy, back this brain train up here...

    Firstly the rogues IS the highest DPS charecter in the game aside from fire/arcance mix mages. Secondly, they only thing that makes a rogue high end dps is by having the right spec WITH the right weapons, fast weapons arent always the best combo for some specs, in fact a slower hard hitting sword is sometimes more appropriate because it delivers more damage AND all rogues attacks are IC, which means the swords speed doesnt horrible effect us. Thirdly, god help any rogues soul if i EVER see a ambush-->vanish-->ambush-->preperation-->vanish-->ambush in ANY raid. You WILL pull hella agro and quite possibly pull it off your tank, which will screw the entire encounter and the raid party over. TBH, in raids i didnt even need to pull that move to start getting TOO high on the agro meter. In a raid when you are dealing with a agro roof and you're pulling that shit, god help your imortal soul when your group is done with you.

    On to the topic of healing rogues. 90% of the time a rogue DOES require there own group of healers. Generally two druids or a druid and a priest/pali. You may disagree with me, and I will defend your right to the death to do so, unfortunatly rogues get splash and AOE damage quite often in battles and cant help but need healed. Bandages DO have a cool-down, and trust me, if your rogues in your group drop you might as well reset the boss because hes not going to go down in a timely manner. Not only that but stuns don't last long enough to bandage and blind is on a 5-minute cool-down... and they dont always work on mobs in instances... not only that but if you have several people working on one mob and you blind him to walk away and bandage you better be ready to recive A LOT of hell.

    Lastly, Sap DOES NOT take humanoids out of combat. It only works if the target you're trying to sap is already out of combat.

    On a final note your guide seemed like a long tutorial to picking a class, soloing/pvping. The talents and manuvers you suggested are things that you would not do in a raid with a lot of charecters.

    Also in your guide you failed to mention anything about the difference of steady, good, mid-range DPS. There is a difference between burst damage DPS and mid-range solid dps. If ANY class is pumping out high end crits again and again and again and again, you WILL draw agro over the tank in any long boss fight. High end burst DPS is great for trash mobs, but do not use it outside of that.

    "And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."

  • AethiosAethios Member Posts: 1,527


    Originally posted by Sunrider
    Thirdly, god help any rogues soul if i EVER see a ambush-->vanish-->ambush-->preperation-->vanish-->ambush in ANY raid. You WILL pull hella agro and quite possibly pull it off your tank, which will screw the entire encounter and the raid party over.

    Vanish clears aggro.

  • AntipathyAntipathy Member UncommonPosts: 1,362
    A few more errors and omissions:



    Warlock shadow damage: The guide is incorrect - this causes no more aggro than any other types of damage. In the case of DOT spells the aggro occurs later in the fight, which is generally preferable. The confusion may be caused by shadow damage inflicted by priests, much of which is high aggro.



    The previous poster asked why destruction spec was emphasised for warlocks. I know pre-TBC many raiding warlocks used destruction because only a limited number of effects could be applied to each enemy. There simply wasn't enough space to apply all the debuffs that affliction warlocks like to apply. I heard some time ago that the number of spaces for effects would be increased. Together with the reduction in raid sizes this may make affliction warlocks more viable. I seem to remember affliction is alot more mana efficient than destruction.



    DPS role: DPS classes should use aggro removal abilites after having inflicted substantial damage (e.g. hunter feign death and rogue vanish). These should ideally be used before aggro is acquired. If they are used after acquiring aggro then aggro may well head to the healer rather than the tank.



    Rather than an off-tank role, an option is to use a main assist, whose job is to generate concentrated aggro on a single mob. This allows the dps to nuke one mob at full speed, whilst the main tank can spread aggro around to keep the MH safe.



    Sanicek is correct in saying that correctly specced and with the right equipment any of the four healing classes can main heal 5 mans. I have personally known paladins who are excellent healers. He also commented that Druids can't resurrect. They can. Albeit only one person  every 30 minutes.



    He also said "You also altogether skipped 3 role categories, crowd control, buffing and out of combat support."



    Personally I wouldn't see buffing as a role. So many classes can do it in one form or another. Buffs available may be a factor in deciding who to take along (e.g. it is good to have a mix of classes) but aren't really a major role once the adventure has started.



    Crowd control is an important role. At times mages, hunters, priests, druids, rogues and warlocks will all be expected to perform this function.



    I'm not sure is meant by "out of combat support". Do you mean mages creating food/water and rogues opening doors?



    Another very important role is pulling. Getting pulling right is a complex issue. Ideally a mix of different classes should be used in different situations, but this can be hard to organise in a pick-up group.



    Different pull types include:



    Hunter - uses tracking abilities and extreme range to pull safely. Traps to remove a mob from the pull and feign death to transfer aggro to the tank. If too many mobs are pulled he can abort using feign death. Alot of players also don't understand that hunter pulls work better when the group is much further back than for tank pulls.



    Tank pull - the most common pull used by low level groups and the most effective for many boss encounters. It ensures that all the mobs go to the tank in the first few seconds of combat. If the mobs are relatively isolated a warrior may charge in to generate extra aggro. For safety a tank may also often pull with a ranged ability such as a gun (warriors) or spell (druids). Paladins can sometimes have problems with pulling, since they lack range. I would recommend that any group using a paladin for MT also takes along a hunter to help with pulls.



    Sap pull - against humanoids rogues can sap one before combat starts, removing it from the fight for 30 seconds



    Sheep pull - mages polymorph one enemy. If the spell wears off whilst there are still mobs to fight then the mage should re-sheep the opponent.



    Shackle undead - priests can remove one undead enemy from the fight at the start of combat. I was extremely nervous about doing this when I was main healer - you need a good party around you who you can be confident can intercept any aggro before it reaches you.



    Ice block pull - frost mages can attack an enemy from range and then encase themselves in an ice block in order to lose aggro.



    There are also alot of bad ways of pulling, many of which are used far too frequently. Mages, warlocks and priests should not pull with damaging spells. Hunters and warlocks should not pull by sending their pet in (unless a hunter pet is MT). Rogues and shamen should not pull by rushing into melee.
  • saniceksanicek Member UncommonPosts: 368

    Just a quick few sentences, yes I know druids can ressurect, but once every 30 minutes and with reagent is pretty limited.

    As for buffing, most classes have some kind of powerfull unique buff in addition to their repertoire, but paladin and shaman are two classes that actually specialize in wide variety of buffs so their role is also in this, properly selected totem or blessings and aura for each fight can make huge difference.

    Out of combat roles, yes, mages conjuring food, providing portals, locks healthstones and summoning, hunters aspect of the cheetah, tracking, rogue opening locked stuff, sneak activation of stuff, paladin mount aura, lock/shaman underwater breathing, water walking, feather fall, etc.. also the not exactly combat options of wipe-prevention and recovery, reincarnation, soulstones, divine intervention.

    And as for pala pulling, protection specced palas have actually probably the best ranged pulling attack available.

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  • SunriderSunrider Member UncommonPosts: 527


    Originally posted by Aethios
    Originally posted by Sunrider
    Thirdly, god help any rogues soul if i EVER see a ambush-->vanish-->ambush-->preperation-->vanish-->ambush in ANY raid. You WILL pull hella agro and quite possibly pull it off your tank, which will screw the entire encounter and the raid party over.

    Vanish clears aggro.



    Yes, it does clear SOME agro, sometimes its just what you need, other times its not. In the val fight in BWL all our rogues use vanish everytime it was up and sometimes it just wasnt often enough, you do still accumulate agro even with vanish, it just reduces it by a set ammount.

    "And after blizzard takes over the world, they are gonna gather a bunch of lemmings, sit on their fat asses near a cliff, and watch the little fuzzy bastards suicide dive into the ground below. . . . . all just for their own entertainment."

  • AntipathyAntipathy Member UncommonPosts: 1,362
    Originally posted by sanicek



    And as for pala pulling, protection specced palas have actually probably the best ranged pulling attack available.
    Enlighten me - I'm not entirely sure what you're describing. How long is the attacks range?



    I wouldn't claim to be a paladin expert and am just going by how I've seen other characters play.
  • saniceksanicek Member UncommonPosts: 368
    Originally posted by Antipathy

    Originally posted by sanicek



    And as for pala pulling, protection specced palas have actually probably the best ranged pulling attack available.
    Enlighten me - I'm not entirely sure what you're describing. How long is the attacks range?



    I wouldn't claim to be a paladin expert and am just going by how I've seen other characters play.

    Cast time: 1s  Cooldown: 30s Range: 8-30 yds

    Hurls a holy shield at the enemy, dealing 494 to 602 Holy damage, Dazing them and then jumping to additional nearby enemies.  Affects 3 total targets.  Lasts 6 sec.







    Pala tanks build agro from holy damage (from which we (yea I played also tankadin) have extra threat) and this thingy establishes a very very solid chunk of initial agro and with a daze as a nice bonus. Its ofc affected by spell damage gear.

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    Due to the recent economic crisis and spending cuts the light at the end of the tunnel was turned off. Sincerely, God.

  • bonobotheorybonobotheory Member UncommonPosts: 1,007
    I've had no problem tanking in 5-man instances as an Arms/Fury Warrior. I've done all of the major ones up to level 60. Now that I have Burning Crusade, I'll see if it holds true for the 61-70 instances, but I doubt it will be much different. Protection specialization is necessary if you want to be main tank for a raid, but any warrior can tank a 5-man instance if he knows what he's doing (and if he doesn't know what he's doing, no specialization at all will help him). I respecced as Protection once. I regretted it, my group regretted it, and I specced back to Arms/Fury after a single run through Dire Maul.
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