Perma-Death Re-evaluated

Pangaea · February 2007

Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals.

I think we all know the pros and cons of PermaDeath, but some of the cons needs to be removed for game developers to even consider it.

The MMO ideal has to be restructured. As of now, MMOs are a competition up a ladder where you strive to be the best, and it is that level climb that players find frustrating to repeat.. and frustrating to lose ground on. Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.

Well here is the ideal that needs to change.

1- A game should be fun never work. If the game becomes work it stops being a game. A game.. no matter what path it takes if FUN, can do what ever it wants.

2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.

Lets just say we had a game, that experience was treated like money. And with that money you can buy new skills, spells, abilities, proficiencies. You can save your experience for bigger abilities or spend it as you get it for smaller ones. There is no DING you have to wait for to see a change in your character. There is no level requirements to anything you have.

3- Real Line of sight with random monster spawns. At night you would not be able to see several feet in front of you without a lantern or light source.

If you had FUN playing a character through a deadly, and he died, you could always start over and try again as a different character.. cause the goal isn't to get to level 70, it is to have FUN

Classicstar · February 2007

Yes to have fun thats importend .

If my character dies i dont mind but in mmo where you pay everymonth there should be some sort of way to evolve for example offspring or you have build something so when your character dies you can start with offspring or place you help build to be better and you profit with your new character.

No lvls no xp just skills to buy and go into world and have fun again.

Neanderthal · February 2007

I think perma-death could work but the system you described would, I think, have the same problems as a level advancement system. You said to use exp. like money which you use to buy additional abilities. Gradually becoming more powerful/versatile. Well then it's the same thing really. You gradually build up your character and then you die and lose it all.

I think I could take that depending on how it worked specifically but I doubt that most people could.

For perma-death to really work in a game I think that the focus of gameplay has to be shifted away from character building to a great extent.

One thought I had about how this could work goes like this:

You create your character and then that's pretty much it. No levels to gain. No skills to gain or improve. What you did at creation is what you have to work with. You could improve your equipment but item power should always be kept in a reasonable and realistic range. Items would be inheritable so that you wouldn't lose that when your current character dies but items are also destructable and you would always lose at least one equiped item when you die (helps to keep the economy healthy).

Ok, now here's the catch that makes you want to stay alive. The game would have a length of life meter and an experience meter. The longer you live and the more experience you have...the more training points you get with your next character. So if you live a long and full life (full life meter and full exp meter) and die of old age, your next character (the offspring of your current one) will have the maximum possible training points and stat points at creation.

And then you try to live a long and full (length and exp.) life with that guy. Die two minutes into it and you are back to a minimum points character. It would suck somewhat in that case but even the minimum points characters should be fully functional in the game, just not as powerful or versatile.

So anyway, with each successive character you have what you have and you try to make the best of it. And no character would last forever because old age would eventually get them.

Without being able to activily grind away for character advancement the game would have to have to focus on other motivations which I could go into but I won't right now. The main thing is that, as you said, it should be FUN.

I don't know, it's hard to properly detail my thoughts on this in a reasonably short post but what do you think?

Pangaea · February 2007

keep in mind.. with this kind of system that I spoke up.. the way combat is done would be drastically change as well.

having a red bar that hits zero and you die would be removed.

There is your state of health in a way.. with how much damage you could feasibly take before death accurs. Like one huge blow COULD kill you.

There would also be Armor that allows for resistance. not just damage reduction.. like.. I think if you are well armored. with enchanted plate or what ever.. there has to be a armor value that attacks will have to penetrate in order to hurt you.

if your plate reduces 6 damage from a hit someone has to at least to 7 damage to even hurt you.. or the hit will always bounce off when it hits your plated areas.

that allows for a more safty buffer against being killed by just anything.

Unknown · February 2007

I will never play a MMOG that features perma-death...nope, not ever.

osc8r · February 2007

OP - I like your ideas and do think that if a MMO was designed from the start around a perma death ssystem it could work well.

I think it would be a nice change and would definately give one a go.

Pangaea · February 2007

Originally posted by poopypants

I will never play a MMOG that features perma-death...nope, not ever.

kool.. that is less lag for me

Toyotomi · February 2007

Originally posted by Pangaea

Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals.

I think we all know the pros and cons of PermaDeath, but some of the cons needs to be removed for game developers to even consider it.

The MMO ideal has to be restructured. As of now, MMOs are a competition up a ladder where you strive to be the best, and it is that level climb that players find frustrating to repeat.. and frustrating to lose ground on. Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.

Well here is the ideal that needs to change.

1- A game should be fun never work. If the game becomes work it stops being a game. A game.. no matter what path it takes if FUN, can do what ever it wants.

2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.

Lets just say we had a game, that experience was treated like money. And with that money you can buy new skills, spells, abilities, proficiencies. You can save your experience for bigger abilities or spend it as you get it for smaller ones. There is no DING you have to wait for to see a change in your character. There is no level requirements to anything you have.

3- Real Line of sight with random monster spawns. At night you would not be able to see several feet in front of you without a lantern or light source.

If you had FUN playing a character through a deadly, and he died, you could always start over and try again as a different character.. cause the goal isn't to get to level 70, it is to have FUN

Well, for 1 and 2, there's a problem with that line of thinking. One thing is that to really make it viable, everyone would basically have to be on an equal playing field with the monsters or people they fight. Nobody could have a significant advantage otherwise you have serious balance issues. You'd end up with the ultimate carebear game basically, without any real challenge. On the note of levels, unless you all have the same skills available to you upon creation, then it's the same thing as working levels, because you still have to work toward those skills and in essence "grind" your way back to where you were. Turning exp into money is just giving it a new name.

On the note of the night visibility, EQ did that. I remember as a half elf, I couldn't see more than 5 feet before I got better light sources. (of course you can just boost the gamma way up, but you'd have daytime too bright, and that's a personal decision in the end... even without the ability to boost gamma you'd still be able to jack up your vid card settings or monitor settings at night.)

Just to be clear, I don't loath the idea of perma-death. It's just I don't really see how it could really feasibly work in an MMO. If a game were to do it, and make it really work well, I'd be all for it, I just honestly don't see it happening. At least not with it still being a good game.

(and no I didn't read the rest of the thread before posting this)

Unknown · February 2007

Originally posted by Pangaea

Originally posted by poopypants

I will never play a MMOG that features perma-death...nope, not ever.

kool.. that is less lag for me

The player base in a perma-death MMOG will be so tiny that you'll never have to worry about lag

Pangaea · February 2007

Originally posted by poopypants

Originally posted by Pangaea

Originally posted by poopypants

I will never play a MMOG that features perma-death...nope, not ever.

kool.. that is less lag for me

The player base in a perma-death MMOG will be so tiny that you'll never have to worry about lag

Well since it hasn't happened yet. I am hoping you are right... in that case you could predict the future, and then I would hunt you down, and force you to tell me the next winning lottery numbers

Pangaea · February 2007

one of the things that gives me hope it would be FUN.. is that there is not item grinding.

No level requirements. Epics can come and go... easy come easy go.. no sweat.. in all yoru CURRENT games you are all trained to it is Hard Come .. so when they easily go you feel frustrated.

Were talking about.. short lived characters.. maybe a couple hours.. maybe a month.. maybe longer but rare.

Were talking about the ability to buy new skills with Experience, you want magic casting.. spend some experience,m.. you want to be a dual wielding wizard with plate armor.. get the proficiencies.

And yes.. no one will be invulnerable. You will have older character still slightly afraid of a mob of less characters cause they could kill him.

Guilds would be important. Parties would be important.. people you TRUST coul dbe important.. your items would ALL be lootable.

retrospectic · February 2007

Originally posted by Pangaea

Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals.

I think we all know the pros and cons of PermaDeath, but some of the cons needs to be removed for game developers to even consider it.

The MMO ideal has to be restructured. As of now, MMOs are a competition up a ladder where you strive to be the best, and it is that level climb that players find frustrating to repeat.. and frustrating to lose ground on. Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.

Well here is the ideal that needs to change.

1- A game should be fun never work. If the game becomes work it stops being a game. A game.. no matter what path it takes if FUN, can do what ever it wants.

I may be the only person who feels this way, but I play MMORPGs for many reasons. One of the reasons is that I feel accomplished when I work towards a goal. I have fun building my character by levels and becoming mightier than those who spend less time refining their gameplay.

2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.

There will always be a grind in MMORPGs. There has not been a successful MMO that doesn't require characters to spend time advancing. Advancement without "leveling" is called "skill-based" and usually does give characters a wider selection of abities to choose from. Although this does give players a larger sense of "custom" characters, balance and "fun" become a bigger issue for those who accept lesser played roles. The "healer" type will whine more because "nuke/melee" will always wait in dungeons to smash them.

Lets just say we had a game, that experience was treated like money. And with that money you can buy new skills, spells, abilities, proficiencies. You can save your experience for bigger abilities or spend it as you get it for smaller ones. There is no DING you have to wait for to see a change in your character. There is no level requirements to anything you have.

This sounds like a massive undertaking for an MMORPG. The issue of balance and replay value here is quite massive. Characters will find a "cookie cutter" build that is the "best of the best" and you will still see people fall into specific niches. Meanwhile, your cool idea for a "chef class" will fall by the wayside.

3- Real Line of sight with random monster spawns. At night you would not be able to see several feet in front of you without a lantern or light source.
I am a bit confused here. Are you saying real LOS game play and some random monsters spawn? So I could be stepped on by Godzilla at any moment?
Also, the idea of real night time was established in EverQuest. If you picked and Human or Barbarian you had a lot of trouble even getting out of some cave-like areas. The starting area for the half elves comes to mind as something seriously difficult to navigate. I like the idea of a more realistic approach to night/day, but having someone bumble around in the woods because they forgot to bring a lantern is risky due to it being "not fun".

If you had FUN playing a character through a deadly, and he died, you could always start over and try again as a different character.. cause the goal isn't to get to level 70, it is to have FUN
This doesn't seem "fun" to me. You are replacing one grind with another. If I spent all of my time collecting experience points just to die while being disconnected, or because a group member was an idiot, I doubt I would have fun "trying again".

retrospectic · February 2007

Originally posted by Pangaea

one of the things that gives me hope it would be FUN.. is that there is not item grinding.

I'm sorry to admit it, but this is one of the major contributing factors to the success of many MMORPGs. Even the game Ultima Online, which had mostly easily replaceable loot, had a magical weapon system. Vanquishing weapons (at one time) where HIGHLY sought after by players. If you lost a Vanq weapon, you felt it. This sounds more and more like a First Person Shooter.

No level requirements. Epics can come and go... easy come easy go.. no sweat.. in all yoru CURRENT games you are all trained to it is Hard Come .. so when they easily go you feel frustrated.

I can only imagine the amount of twinking the game would suffer. A mildly intelligent group of players could run the server if they put their minds to it. The ability to kill someone permanently means that any kind of griefing could result in a very "unfun" atmosphere.

Were talking about.. short lived characters.. maybe a couple hours.. maybe a month.. maybe longer but rare.

How quickly would experience be gained in this game? How would it be gained? If you are talking about hours, how would characters plan their careers, develop ability to play, or learn the game? If you think constant trial and error you are thinking about games like Counter Strike or other FPS where each game starts all players fresh. That is not the usual avenue MMOs take.

Were talking about the ability to buy new skills with Experience, you want magic casting.. spend some experience,m.. you want to be a dual wielding wizard with plate armor.. get the proficiencies.

This sounds like a cesspool for unbalanced characters. No one is going to play a magic caster in cloth if you can cast spells in plate armor with a sword. This again would bring us to the inability to become attached to your character, or a guild. If everyone is dying than you can't bond with your friends.

And yes.. no one will be invulnerable. You will have older character still slightly afraid of a mob of less characters cause they could kill him.

So you're saying that a freshly made character or any monster in the game could theoretically kill a higher level player. This would also take away from the usual fun factor of MMOs. Even try to duel a level 70 at level 35? Goodluck.

Guilds would be important. Parties would be important.. people you TRUST coul dbe important.. your items would ALL be lootable.

If the item system isn't important, people wouldn't really care to loot bodies anyway, unless you gave spells reagents. Guilds would be impossible to form unless you did them by accounts instead of characters themselves. What would become important would be VENT servers and characters trying to form battles close enough to a new character spawn to run back into the fray. AKA It would become an FPS.

-Rodriguez- · February 2007

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by Pangaea

2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.

There will always be a grind in MMORPGs. There has not been a successful MMO that doesn't require characters to spend time advancing. Advancement without "leveling" is called "skill-based" and usually does give characters a wider selection of abities to choose from. Although this does give players a larger sense of "custom" characters, balance and "fun" become a bigger issue for those who accept lesser played roles. The "healer" type will whine more because "nuke/melee" will always wait in dungeons to smash them.

The question beckons what a healer would do alone in a dungeon. Healing the aching dragon teeth?

A few very good point were made in that thread, I just want to add two things:

-Permadeath doesnt have to mean "Die once and you are gone", I can also mean you can die 10 to 100 times depending on the game world. This would make disconnection issues less of a problem.

-A dead Character could give his offspring also certain monetary values, weapons, armor, land and houses...

Pangaea · February 2007

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by Pangaea

Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals.

I think we all know the pros and cons of PermaDeath, but some of the cons needs to be removed for game developers to even consider it.

The MMO ideal has to be restructured. As of now, MMOs are a competition up a ladder where you strive to be the best, and it is that level climb that players find frustrating to repeat.. and frustrating to lose ground on. Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.

Well here is the ideal that needs to change.

1- A game should be fun never work. If the game becomes work it stops being a game. A game.. no matter what path it takes if FUN, can do what ever it wants.

I may be the only person who feels this way, but I play MMORPGs for many reasons. One of the reasons is that I feel accomplished when I work towards a goal. I have fun building my character by levels and becoming mightier than those who spend less time refining their gameplay.

Elitist

2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.

There will always be a grind in MMORPGs. There has not been a successful MMO that doesn't require characters to spend time advancing. Advancement without "leveling" is called "skill-based" and usually does give characters a wider selection of abities to choose from. Although this does give players a larger sense of "custom" characters, balance and "fun" become a bigger issue for those who accept lesser played roles. The "healer" type will whine more because "nuke/melee" will always wait in dungeons to smash them.
Don't make the games ONLY fun to drive your character foward so much that you lose track of everything around. Story, Quests, Combat excitement.

Lets just say we had a game, that experience was treated like money. And with that money you can buy new skills, spells, abilities, proficiencies. You can save your experience for bigger abilities or spend it as you get it for smaller ones. There is no DING you have to wait for to see a change in your character. There is no level requirements to anything you have.

This sounds like a massive undertaking for an MMORPG. The issue of balance and replay value here is quite massive. Characters will find a "cookie cutter" build that is the "best of the best" and you will still see people fall into specific niches. Meanwhile, your cool idea for a "chef class" will fall by the wayside.

Well I was thinking in my game you don't have classes that are stuck with certain things.. I saw a class is something you start as and all it does is determine your starting skills, 99% of all abilities and skills will be available to EVERYONE of all classes.. but cost different experience amount if you are not fit for it.. so while a fighter could buy dual wielding for 200XP, a Wizard would have to spend 300-400XP on that ability.. but giving him the same ability.. You COULD make a Wizard into just as good of a warrior as a warrior.. but with the cost of MUCH more experience. So your braggin rights isn't going to be LOOK I am Level 70.. it is .. LOOK .. I have a Wizard that can fight melee better than you.
3- Real Line of sight with random monster spawns. At night you would not be able to see several feet in front of you without a lantern or light source.
I am a bit confused here. Are you saying real LOS game play and some random monsters spawn? So I could be stepped on by Godzilla at any moment?
Also, the idea of real night time was established in EverQuest. If you picked and Human or Barbarian you had a lot of trouble even getting out of some cave-like areas. The starting area for the half elves comes to mind as something seriously difficult to navigate. I like the idea of a more realistic approach to night/day, but having someone bumble around in the woods because they forgot to bring a lantern is risky due to it being "not fun".'
Not so random in the sense that you can fight Chthullu when you step out of town.. but each zone could have a probability at what could ever apear there including some RARE bad asses that you dont' want to run into..

If you had FUN playing a character through a deadly, and he died, you could always start over and try again as a different character.. cause the goal isn't to get to level 70, it is to have FUN
This doesn't seem "fun" to me. You are replacing one grind with another. If I spent all of my time collecting experience points just to die while being disconnected, or because a group member was an idiot, I doubt I would have fun "trying again".

Wow.. if you are saying you wouldn't try that experience again.. then maybe it wasnt' that fun the first time.. maybe yoru mentality is all wrong for it. just because you had to start over.. does that mean your wont enjoy it again.. keep in mind.. this wont be some similar.. kill 5 goblins, kill 5 super goblins,, now move over here and do it again.. Every fight is important.. I dont' think killing 500+ monsters in your life makes anyone feel totally special. If you faught 20-30 wicked monsters and walked away pretty poeerfull off some really nice items.. those 20-30 monsters would feel like a real achievement.

retrospectic · February 2007

Originally posted by -Rodriguez-

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by Pangaea

2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.

There will always be a grind in MMORPGs. There has not been a successful MMO that doesn't require characters to spend time advancing. Advancement without "leveling" is called "skill-based" and usually does give characters a wider selection of abities to choose from. Although this does give players a larger sense of "custom" characters, balance and "fun" become a bigger issue for those who accept lesser played roles. The "healer" type will whine more because "nuke/melee" will always wait in dungeons to smash them.

The question beckons what a healer would do alone in a dungeon. Healing the aching dragon teeth?

A few very good point were made in that thread, I just want to add two things:

-Permadeath doesnt have to mean "Die once and you are gone", I can also mean you can die 10 to 100 times depending on the game world. This would make disconnection issues less of a problem.

-A dead Character could give his offspring also certain monetary values, weapons, armor, land and houses...

I would still be pissed if I lost one of my nine lives because the server hiccuped or my ISP hiccuped. Also, if that did happen, there would be no way for GMs or in-game Guides to assist. "Pulling the Plug" could be done manually to fake a DC death.

I'm not really fond of the "I have a baby and he gets me boots!" idea. I understand that some items could be stored for future characters, but the other problems I invision would still arise.

retrospectic · February 2007

Originally posted by Pangaea

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by Pangaea

Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals.

I think we all know the pros and cons of PermaDeath, but some of the cons needs to be removed for game developers to even consider it.

The MMO ideal has to be restructured. As of now, MMOs are a competition up a ladder where you strive to be the best, and it is that level climb that players find frustrating to repeat.. and frustrating to lose ground on. Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.

Well here is the ideal that needs to change.

1- A game should be fun never work. If the game becomes work it stops being a game. A game.. no matter what path it takes if FUN, can do what ever it wants.

I may be the only person who feels this way, but I play MMORPGs for many reasons. One of the reasons is that I feel accomplished when I work towards a goal. I have fun building my character by levels and becoming mightier than those who spend less time refining their gameplay.

Elitist
I would have to agree if "Elitist" translates to someone who wants to be rewarded for time spent. Although my favorite form of this happens to be in your envisioned game. It is called "skill" and it usually comes after a lot of practice. I would just rather see a fully formed character I'm accustomed to than a bunch that died along the way.

2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.

There will always be a grind in MMORPGs. There has not been a successful MMO that doesn't require characters to spend time advancing. Advancement without "leveling" is called "skill-based" and usually does give characters a wider selection of abities to choose from. Although this does give players a larger sense of "custom" characters, balance and "fun" become a bigger issue for those who accept lesser played roles. The "healer" type will whine more because "nuke/melee" will always wait in dungeons to smash them.
Don't make the games ONLY fun to drive your character foward so much that you lose track of everything around. Story, Quests, Combat excitement.

The short-lived aspect of your characters means that advancement would come way way way before becoming involved in a story line. This would also be another reason to lose fun factor. If you have to repeat the same story line over and over just to die and start again...

Lets just say we had a game, that experience was treated like money. And with that money you can buy new skills, spells, abilities, proficiencies. You can save your experience for bigger abilities or spend it as you get it for smaller ones. There is no DING you have to wait for to see a change in your character. There is no level requirements to anything you have.

This sounds like a massive undertaking for an MMORPG. The issue of balance and replay value here is quite massive. Characters will find a "cookie cutter" build that is the "best of the best" and you will still see people fall into specific niches. Meanwhile, your cool idea for a "chef class" will fall by the wayside.

Well I was thinking in my game you don't have classes that are stuck with certain things.. I saw a class is something you start as and all it does is determine your starting skills, 99% of all abilities and skills will be available to EVERYONE of all classes.. but cost different experience amount if you are not fit for it.. so while a fighter could buy dual wielding for 200XP, a Wizard would have to spend 300-400XP on that ability.. but giving him the same ability.. You COULD make a Wizard into just as good of a warrior as a warrior.. but with the cost of MUCH more experience. So your braggin rights isn't going to be LOOK I am Level 70.. it is .. LOOK .. I have a Wizard that can fight melee better than you.
So you could have a Wizard who is just as good as a Warrior in a couple hours of gameplay (before their usual death and reroll)? It seems like this world you are planning has some long term goals with short term characters. Wouldn't you eventually see a lot of characters stuck in town waiting for a group that may or may not turn on them and end their Wizard long before he/she can become as mighty as a Warrior?
3- Real Line of sight with random monster spawns. At night you would not be able to see several feet in front of you without a lantern or light source.
I am a bit confused here. Are you saying real LOS game play and some random monsters spawn? So I could be stepped on by Godzilla at any moment?
Also, the idea of real night time was established in EverQuest. If you picked and Human or Barbarian you had a lot of trouble even getting out of some cave-like areas. The starting area for the half elves comes to mind as something seriously difficult to navigate. I like the idea of a more realistic approach to night/day, but having someone bumble around in the woods because they forgot to bring a lantern is risky due to it being "not fun".'
Not so random in the sense that you can fight Chthullu when you step out of town.. but each zone could have a probability at what could ever apear there including some RARE bad asses that you dont' want to run into..

So instead of many areas in a zone with static spawns, areas with pathing wandering mobs, and a few walking rares you would have zones littered with random mobs and occasionally one stomping around crushing everyone. Sounds like a different version of the same stuff to me.

If you had FUN playing a character through a deadly, and he died, you could always start over and try again as a different character.. cause the goal isn't to get to level 70, it is to have FUN
This doesn't seem "fun" to me. You are replacing one grind with another. If I spent all of my time collecting experience points just to die while being disconnected, or because a group member was an idiot, I doubt I would have fun "trying again".

Wow.. if you are saying you wouldn't try that experience again.. then maybe it wasnt' that fun the first time.. maybe yoru mentality is all wrong for it. just because you had to start over.. does that mean your wont enjoy it again.. keep in mind.. this wont be some similar.. kill 5 goblins, kill 5 super goblins,, now move over here and do it again.. Every fight is important.. I dont' think killing 500+ monsters in your life makes anyone feel totally special. If you faught 20-30 wicked monsters and walked away pretty poeerfull off some really nice items.. those 20-30 monsters would feel like a real achievement.
You seem to be condensing the grind here. Instead of killing simple monsters many times you try and kill a few harder monsters for a greater reward. This is still replacing one grind with another grind that is challenging in a different way. In games with a grind spread out over many mobs in many areas each fight is still important because any equal challenge mob can kill you outright if you aren't at least partially on the ball.
Also, this idea of few fights with great rewards seems like a dungeon without the trash. The idea of accomplishment for your vision seems to be the ability to defeat other players. You also seem to skew this vision when you introduce monsters to this vision. Perhaps I'm missing something.

retrospectic · February 2007

I would still try it if there was a free trial. Unless, of course, it is some anime crap.

Pangaea · February 2007

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by Pangaea

Originally posted by retrospectic

Originally posted by Pangaea

Perma-Death in MMOs have been a thing that many have yearned for or shunned. Forums threads have been created that go in depth on both sides of the argument to support and abolish perma-death ideals.

I think we all know the pros and cons of PermaDeath, but some of the cons needs to be removed for game developers to even consider it.

The MMO ideal has to be restructured. As of now, MMOs are a competition up a ladder where you strive to be the best, and it is that level climb that players find frustrating to repeat.. and frustrating to lose ground on. Sure who wants to play for a month to have your character die and lose it all.

Well here is the ideal that needs to change.

1- A game should be fun never work. If the game becomes work it stops being a game. A game.. no matter what path it takes if FUN, can do what ever it wants.

I may be the only person who feels this way, but I play MMORPGs for many reasons. One of the reasons is that I feel accomplished when I work towards a goal. I have fun building my character by levels and becoming mightier than those who spend less time refining their gameplay.

Elitist
I would have to agree if "Elitist" translates to someone who wants to be rewarded for time spent. Although my favorite form of this happens to be in your envisioned game. It is called "skill" and it usually comes after a lot of practice. I would just rather see a fully formed character I'm accustomed to than a bunch that died along the way.
Well we have a different taste.. I would have to agree to disagree here.

2- The levels have to go. Levels have been done. Mastered and has its place in the current ideals for MMOs, it can still have a roll in its own style of game. Advancement can be done with out leveling.

There will always be a grind in MMORPGs. There has not been a successful MMO that doesn't require characters to spend time advancing. Advancement without "leveling" is called "skill-based" and usually does give characters a wider selection of abities to choose from. Although this does give players a larger sense of "custom" characters, balance and "fun" become a bigger issue for those who accept lesser played roles. The "healer" type will whine more because "nuke/melee" will always wait in dungeons to smash them.

Don't make the games ONLY fun to drive your character foward so much that you lose track of everything around. Story, Quests, Combat excitement.

The short-lived aspect of your characters means that advancement would come way way way before becoming involved in a story line. This would also be another reason to lose fun factor. If you have to repeat the same story line over and over just to die and start again...
Well going into the story line.. I was thinking of no REAL continual story rather than several 1000s in the form of small missions. There might be libraries where you can read the lore of the land and realize how these small missions are related to that.. and some are just random quest design.. take this item from this guy at this location. I mean.. based on your way of looking at it.. I can see how certain continual status quests can get boring if they repeat it several times.. but if you had a quest guy in one town CAPABLE of giving you 1 of several 1000 quests similar that they may be in certain ways.. it is something you will never know what you are in for. (take kid from point a to point b. and keep him alive, take money from blahblah in house A, and these would be generate at the time you recieve it.. you would be the only one with that particular quest at that time more than likely.. and you can share it to get help on that same mission.

Lets just say we had a game, that experience was treated like money. And with that money you can buy new skills, spells, abilities, proficiencies. You can save your experience for bigger abilities or spend it as you get it for smaller ones. There is no DING you have to wait for to see a change in your character. There is no level requirements to anything you have.

This sounds like a massive undertaking for an MMORPG. The issue of balance and replay value here is quite massive. Characters will find a "cookie cutter" build that is the "best of the best" and you will still see people fall into specific niches. Meanwhile, your cool idea for a "chef class" will fall by the wayside.

Well I was thinking in my game you don't have classes that are stuck with certain things.. I saw a class is something you start as and all it does is determine your starting skills, 99% of all abilities and skills will be available to EVERYONE of all classes.. but cost different experience amount if you are not fit for it.. so while a fighter could buy dual wielding for 200XP, a Wizard would have to spend 300-400XP on that ability.. but giving him the same ability.. You COULD make a Wizard into just as good of a warrior as a warrior.. but with the cost of MUCH more experience. So your braggin rights isn't going to be LOOK I am Level 70.. it is .. LOOK .. I have a Wizard that can fight melee better than you.
So you could have a Wizard who is just as good as a Warrior in a couple hours of gameplay (before their usual death and reroll)? It seems like this world you are planning has some long term goals with short term characters. Wouldn't you eventually see a lot of characters stuck in town waiting for a group that may or may not turn on them and end their Wizard long before he/she can become as mighty as a Warrior?
No.. not in a couple hours.. this would be gradual, and would be a very unwise thing for a wizard to do.. maybe if the wizard had already baught all of this wizard abilities, skills, and spells he can venture off to get new abilities that are out of his class so he wont have weaknesses. patching your cahracters weaknesses will be the driving force of proggression, and there really isn't anything to grind for.. Sure to get experience.. but you will NEVER learn all the kills.. youwill die much much sooner than that.. you have to descide by your play stype and situation what skills you want THIS character to have.. and hey.. maybe I will live long enough to get the next one.. either way.. doing these quests, getting cool items and living int he NOW is actually FUN, (to some.. not you)
3- Real Line of sight with random monster spawns. At night you would not be able to see several feet in front of you without a lantern or light source.
I am a bit confused here. Are you saying real LOS game play and some random monsters spawn? So I could be stepped on by Godzilla at any moment?
Also, the idea of real night time was established in EverQuest. If you picked and Human or Barbarian you had a lot of trouble even getting out of some cave-like areas. The starting area for the half elves comes to mind as something seriously difficult to navigate. I like the idea of a more realistic approach to night/day, but having someone bumble around in the woods because they forgot to bring a lantern is risky due to it being "not fun".'
Not so random in the sense that you can fight Chthullu when you step out of town.. but each zone could have a probability at what could ever apear there including some RARE bad asses that you dont' want to run into..

So instead of many areas in a zone with static spawns, areas with pathing wandering mobs, and a few walking rares you would have zones littered with random mobs and occasionally one stomping around crushing everyone. Sounds like a different version of the same stuff to me.
Not really. Monsters will be specialized.. it isn't a wack festival with monsters that all look alike.. it is more like "hey look at that small army of orcs passing through th forest." or "whoa.. a ghaos ghoul walking the roads at night.. I never seen that before I wonder if I can take him"

If you had FUN playing a character through a deadly, and he died, you could always start over and try again as a different character.. cause the goal isn't to get to level 70, it is to have FUN
This doesn't seem "fun" to me. You are replacing one grind with another. If I spent all of my time collecting experience points just to die while being disconnected, or because a group member was an idiot, I doubt I would have fun "trying again".

Wow.. if you are saying you wouldn't try that experience again.. then maybe it wasnt' that fun the first time.. maybe yoru mentality is all wrong for it. just because you had to start over.. does that mean your wont enjoy it again.. keep in mind.. this wont be some similar.. kill 5 goblins, kill 5 super goblins,, now move over here and do it again.. Every fight is important.. I dont' think killing 500+ monsters in your life makes anyone feel totally special. If you faught 20-30 wicked monsters and walked away pretty poeerfull off some really nice items.. those 20-30 monsters would feel like a real achievement.
You seem to be condensing the grind here. Instead of killing simple monsters many times you try and kill a few harder monsters for a greater reward. This is still replacing one grind with another grind that is challenging in a different way. In games with a grind spread out over many mobs in many areas each fight is still important because any equal challenge mob can kill you outright if you aren't at least partially on the ball.
Also, this idea of few fights with great rewards seems like a dungeon without the trash. The idea of accomplishment for your vision seems to be the ability to defeat other players. You also seem to skew this vision when you introduce monsters to this vision. Perhaps I'm missing something.
I am not confusing the grind . I think you are saying that anytime you kill a monster it is grinding. again. grinding is when you have to kill alot over and over to get anything done. rather than having a more meaningfull encounter that rewards more. My vision is that you will want to group alot.. you can go solo at later times at more risk, but grouping will be what you will want to go for. they can ressurect you when you die. Eliminating any perma death penalties, and possibly enforce permadeath like warhammer RPG does. You get Fate Points.. and those points are very hard to get.. and you only get a couple and if you die.. one is spent to keep you alive under the rare sistuations that they left you for dead

Pangaea · February 2007

Originally posted by retrospectic

I would still try it if there was a free trial. Unless, of course, it is some anime crap.

Funny you mention it.. I was gonna call it Dragon Ball Z vs Final Fantasy

retrospectic · February 2007

It would take some ace programming and story writing to accomplish 1000s of mini-quests. Also, that seems to be falling into the realm of "missions" that has been tackled by a game I played. Anarchy Online had mission terminals which gave you non-descript, no plot, run and gun missions.

I know you are probably not thinking of a game like this, but that's an awfully big undertaking either way.

Also, the whole lore in books thing have never gotten my attention. The only fun way books were placed in a game was Ultima Online. In Ultima Online if you wrote in a book (available to players) and let it rot on the ground it could appear in many of the libraries around the shard. That, to me, was pretty cool. It actually made me stop and double-click books in dungeons looking to find books written by players. A lot of interesting (and mostly pointless) stuff there.

I think we disagree fundamentally on what makes a game fun. I think I'll probably stick to my grinding and leveling until a game actually puts that sort of stuff under review. So far, no game I've played has really evaporated the class system, except maybe Ultima Online, where I did have a crafter named Martha Stewart, a cook named Yan, and a Swords/Magery PvPer named Bum. But, that game got expansion'd into history.

Umbrood · February 2007

Surely an online game with perma death could work, there are many, most of them FPS games though, and that is what you would have.

If you do away with levels and gear dependency you at the same time remove the RP from MMORPG, wich means this topic no longer even fits in this forum.

I am uncertain what the PD crowd is asking for really.

For it to work you need to remove character progress, if you remove character progress there is no point in the game were you can really loose anything, especially if you can just do a "guild wars" and create a max lvl character from the get go.

Is not the "risk VS reward" argument kind of the mantra of the "hardcore" pvp crowd?

Well if you loose nothing there is no risk, if you loose something then the system fails because you will quickly take away the first M as well, it would not be massive.

So in the end, sure you can make a perma death game but it would not be a MMORPG, in fact we have just come to the conclusion that it would be a MOG.

Multiplayer Online Game.

And last I checked, there were plenty of those.

retrospectic · February 2007

Originally posted by Umbrood

Surely an online game with perma death could work, there are many, most of them FPS games though, and that is what you would have.
If you do away with levels and gear dependency you at the same time remove the RP from MMORPG, wich means this topic no longer even fits in this forum.
I am uncertain what the PD crowd is asking for really.
For it to work you need to remove character progress, if you remove character progress there is no point in the game were you can really loose anything, especially if you can just do a "guild wars" and create a max lvl character from the get go.
Is not the "risk VS reward" argument kind of the mantra of the "hardcore" pvp crowd?
Well if you loose nothing there is no risk, if you loose something then the system fails because you will quickly take away the first M as well, it would not be massive.
So in the end, sure you can make a perma death game but it would not be a MMORPG, in fact we have just come to the conclusion that it would be a MOG.
Multiplayer Online Game.
And last I checked, there were plenty of those.

I was trying to display this exact notion on a point by point basis. Although I totally agree, I tried to understand the OPs vision. I mean hey, it could work perhaps if someone had some earth shattering idea.

Aeronis · February 2007

Even single player RPGs dont have permadeath. You die and you just start over from your last save point.

It's a stupid idea that will never be implemented. There's no reason to have months of work erased due to a mistake, or lag, a bad team, or whatever.

-Rodriguez- · February 2007

Originally posted by Aeronis

There's no reason to have months of work erased due to a mistake, or lag, a bad team, or whatever.

Yes its sucks to lose something due to lag/CCs/bad ISP but thats always the case, no matter if permadeath or not.

Its different with things like mistakes or bad team: If you died because you made a wrong decision you probably wont do it again and if you ventured into a dragon cave with rag-tag band of random people you might consider going with your buddys next time.

PS: there is a single player game with permadeath: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetHack

Amarsir · February 2007

In the past when I've brought this up, even to a subset of a subset of a group I thought was receptive, I get

"But I don't want to lose my stuff!"

To which I try to explain that it needs a new paradigm, imagine a persistant world where the goal isn't accumulation. Which is quickly cut off with

"If that's what you want, just delete your character and leave mine alone."

And of course I explain that it doesn't mean tacking on death to an existing system, that I'm asking for brainstorming on a concept, not a vote on a finished idea. But it's not heard above

"I spent all that time, I'd quit if I lost it."

At which point I finally realize that I've been wasting my time.

From a marketing standpoint, perma-death is not a winning idea. That doesn't mean it can't add value, but in no way is that the bullet point you lead with. You'll never get anyone to even try it, since it's so at odds with the accepted paradigm. And because it's not perceived as value added, the proper design approach would be to design a game that doesn't at all evoke thoughts of WoW + perma-death. Make the death treatment seem like an afterthought and/or something that wouldn't matter if it was reversed. I can think of a few approaches off the top of my head:

The Bragging Rights Quest
This one could slip into most games as-is, but is basically a stand-alone side challenge thus not taking over the game. Simply put, you enter an instance designed to be incredibly challenging, and any deaths in there are permanent. (yadda yadda insert risk-balancing so one party member can't run away and doom the rest, or some similar detail to be worked out). If you win (complete the quest), you don't get a great new power or item, which would make people think they "need" it (true or not, perception is reality). All you get is a title, or a special decoration, or your name on a wall somewhere - its bragging rights only.
The Resurrection Quest
Arguably a halfway mark between perma-death and not, no death is really permanent. But, after X deaths (possibly scaling by level? details...), you can't just pop back up at a graveyard/hospital/shrine/whatever. However another character, be it guildmate, hired (or charitble) stranger, or yourself on an alt, can perform some action to bring you back and imbue you with X new deaths.
The session game (now extended!)
A more dramatic approach, don't even call it an RPG (although every other aspect of the game can be designed in that direction). Consider a single-session game like an old-school arcade. The goal is to be the highest up on an infinitely reaching ladder. But, whenever you die, you start over. Also, whenever you log off, you die. With this approach, you're starting over constantly. The average lifespan of a character is an hour or less. 6 months lost, sure - but who's going to complain over the loss of an hour? That's the whole point, death is frequent and common and no big deal. Then, starting with that paradigm, why kill someone when they log off? Let them leave and come back later, chances are they'll die in 20 minutes anyway.
This is just brainstorming, not the honing phase, but I do want to add one big benefit that you can change the game - for balance or diversity - at will. If the Sword of Awesomeness is too good, nerf it. It's not like anyone committed that long to getting it.
The Altaholic's Paradise
The previous item could fall under "Altaholic's Paradise" as well, but I'll make this division. In "The Session Game (now extended!)", the frame of mind you want to create is "I don't care that I died, I don't lose much by starting over." In this model, the thought we want players to have is "I don't care that I died, I want to try something different anyway." It does place a high burden on other parts of the game's design. You need to have a lot of starting options, and they need to play diversely (no whack with staff and shoot red bolts / whack with sword and shoot white bolts / whack with axe and shoot blue bolts fake diversity).
But if you can achieve that, you have the basis for not making death be so terrible. In my currently prefered MMO, City of Heroes, I have characters I've spent hundreds of hours on. But I've also have so many characters I spend weeks and months without touching some. A character that's going unused might as well be dead, and designing to press that mentality can make perma-death palatable.

Those are just broad ideas for an approach. If you have other brainstorms, or just innovations on something I've said, I'd love to hear them. With a couple good ideas, I'd like to pick some to polish and then analyze feasibility - which is the step most people jump to and why you have to ignore them.

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