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MMO's should delight not challenge our endurance!
Ramzeppelin
Member Posts: 101
How many of us are seriously tired of the formula we are enduring? granted there are games that break the mold in past and present terms...hats off to Gods and Heroes for example. though having not played that game it could simply be a variration of the same formula but it seems to actually be original.
Pirates of the Burning sea could be truly original as well, although it may turn out to feel the same just on the high seas. We wont know til weve had a chance to play it a few weeks at least. but there are a handfull of games trying at least some new ideas.
EDITED very sorry but I had to edit out a big chunk...in essence it was about LoTR online being the same ol same ol.
Please READ this line before you flame me 
I do not mind if people like this formula. I really dont. I can truly say that I want everyone to have fun when playing a game.
But we already have this game, perhaps we should call it EVER-WAR-RINGS-of-CAMELOT lol
I call out to developers to throw out everything they know about MMO's and use thier imaginations. I know its way harder but we have all the levelgrind go kill ten bad guy form a guild games we will ever need, both released and in production.
PLease hire me and people like me to IMAGINE! lol, seriously I know that if you took 50 people who are somewhat smart that are burnt out to death of the status quo and had them visualize a game and vote on things that in the end you would have a blueprint of somthing doable to start out at. OK so im not expecting to get hired but we desperately need people with imaginiations making games and people willing to finance it...DESPERATELY
Some people say if you wanna solo dont play MMO's because MMOs are all about the community. I'm sorry to be so final but you are dead wrong. MMO's can be anything. WoW has millions playing it, grouping in that game is the easiest thing, but 8 to 9 out of every 10 people prefer to solo. as you read this millions who could easily group are soloing.
I bring this up because MMO developers seem to fall on thier butts time and time again when making a game because of this simple issue. Some games (you know which) actualy FORCE people to group!
I just read on another post that devs shouldnt worry about roleplaying....WHA????? Roleplaying is dead lets face it! but heres why...
Some people think you have to geek out to roleplay, unntrue...I know the key to roleplaying. The answer is NOT roleplaying servers! thats truly retarded. Try to roleplay and youll quickly be out of your mindset because of 2 things, other people is 1 reason, but number 2 and heres the kicker, MMOs are more and more NOT BEING DESINGED for roleplay. The secret to roleplaying is simple. you design your game so that every single person playing is roleplaying. When you feel like your living in another world you are roleplaying without trying.
You may think that nutty but the way games are being made is more like your playing a video game and less like your living and alter ego in another world. both ways are fine but id be willing to be that if people playing world of warcraft were magically taken to the future where world of warcraft was completely non linear in a well crafted manner they would all of a sudden get it.
if the word "world" in world of warcraft meant living in another world it would truly be a joy.
Last time I posted a similar post a person responded saying they would rather developers focus on combat balancing etc then creating a living breating world. Why limit thier imaginations? they can do both if it is a good company. lets face it, a bad company wont get it right no matter what you have them focus on.
We have example after example of character classes, so the basics like balacing combat is much easier now then 6 years ago.
Anyone remember playing pen and paper dungeons and dragons? what was it that made that so much fun? was it character balacing etc or was it our imaginations being enaged and escaping our real lives to tread in a fantasy one? Star Wars galaxies still has the most potential then any other game on the market. Potential!!! not that it is the best game at all, but its design core was leading us in the right direction. if warcraft is so great then why would we need another one?
no matter who you are, while sitting at your computer reading please try see that telling the industry you want more imagination is nothing but good.
Heres an example that makes my point and makes me feel very sad to address...
My wife and 2 sons and myself all enjoy the sci fi show Stargate. When we heard that they were making an mmo we smiled at one another and started imagining ourselves in that world. So...I read every word on the subject and followed its progress. I will tell you what happened in a nutshell....Where my family thought of how original an MMO based on the series would be the company making it was busy thinking "how do we fit stargate into the EVERlordOFthewarcraftINcamelot formula"
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT
you kidding me? Here is a chance to really translate the show into somthing we could live and breathe in but instead we make world of warcraft and stick a stargate logo on it!?!?!? the Lead on the project talked about how in warcraft you slow down once you get to levels 30 to 40 (true) and how they wanted to fix that, he went on to talk about his character in warcraft and so on and so on, and remember he was answering questions about stargate online!!!! WHOA Whoa holy cow whoa.... this illustrates my point so well it hurts.
Its not that im a die hard fan of stargate, cause im not....but instantly I lost intrest in the game. I'm sorry. well sort of if this is too long for some, but then again I like post that take the time to really explain themselves and I hope many of you help me out here and post your ideas....probelm often is if you think of origianl idea youll get people telling you how that wont work in an MMO....but thats becuase most people dont think for themselves sadly and lack imagination. I do not mean that mean spirirted but we do after all live in a society that often gets its morals from sitcoms 
Last word...lets push the industry which is stagnate to reach its potential. We can be playing games that are 100 times better then we are now but!!! not if wed rather the billions of dollars going to companies to be spent on making your druid more "even" with a shinier axe.
ALSO maybe list what games you think are making use of imagination and why...Happy gaming
PS amazingly the kids game Toontown from disney feels more like roleplaying them 99% of other MMO's. perhaps applied imagination could carry somthing of that over to adultville!
Comments
Cheers to you for opening your eyes. I got a hell of a thread going on about "jading gamers". If you care to join us, feel free
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/112451
What deserves to be done, deserves to be "well" done...
Very good post.. this summed up much of what i was thinking about MMO's last 2 years..
Lot's of people do not really get what roleplay actually is. It really does not require much effort to roleplay at all, it's just up to your imagination and how you decide to play a game. And tada, your roleplaying... When I play battlefield, I imagine my self being Rambo:p, and behave like Rambo would.. I mean,, take risks and fear no one etc... It helps me enjoy the game more and I actually get better at killing others then I usually am, because as a real person I'm not that competitive so I wouldn't be that good if I was playing as my self.
Roleplaying games are specifically designed for players that want to roleplay with others. Because when I'm roleplaying rambo on battlefield, noone knows that but me.. The game simply does not have the tools like a rolplaying game to show what kind of character I am.
I think that the mmo industry has confused a lot of people by separating roleplay and pvp. Like they were 2 totally different styles of play. Some actually think PVP is just combat.. ehm.. for a sec think. Player versus Player. Does it say it has to be combat, implying physical damage on the other player? no.. It means Play against others in any way the game allows you to. Just by being a trader you are competing against other traders.
Thats why I do not like games where they have servers for pvp and servers for roleplay.. because those 2 cannot be separated. You will still be playing a role on a pvp server, and you will still have to pvp on a roleplay server.
My cool sig: Turrets suck.
Simply Amazing post. Just amazing. It gives me hope that some people still expect more. I for one, am a die hard Stargate-SG1 fan, and a huge fan of Stargate Atlantis as well. I am distrught to say the least to have found out like you that the game is another punch card replica with its own name put on it and being prepared to be boxed and sold by the millions to unsuspecting noobs, the clueless veterns, and the people who just have no imagination and really do not have the ability to expect more from something.
You are absolutely correct in the fact that 95% of all the games today be it MMO, or Single player are carbon copies of the games we were playing 10 years ago. Red Bedlam's Roma Victor, which i had hoped had broken out of the mold, is a poor 3-d version of Ultima Onli8ne set in a familiar historic era. They have some intresting ideas, but the game itself is still very carbon copied imho. Starwars Galaxies had tons of potential, and still does, but what went wrong there was, Lucas Arts signed the deal for money and not the love of the Content. That is the only reason i can even fathom why they would have went with Sony to be the developer. I mean yeah SCEA, has more than enough finacial backing to pull it off, but they have a very very poor track record with the games they produce. The customer service is horrible as well. Not to mention there one of the largest companies in the world, and i for one would have loved to have seen the game produced by a company with a very small name and a huge ego to prove they have what it takes to be in the business.
What ever happened to the people who created the telenet/bbs door games, like Major Mudd, and my personal Favorite, Tradewars. Those games cativated me for hours on end. I mean i know i would stay up and stalk a person in MajorMudd for 2 days sometimes just to make sure that the criminal was brought to justice.
Heres the problem though mates. The industry is not going to change becuase they get a fresh generation of new players every 10 to 15 years, depending on how you decide what the generation gap of people are. We get older, we are not supposed to still want to play these games becuase we now have families and chgildren and that comes before our own personal entertainment. We older gamers, The Vetern Players, are to few for the gaming industry to create a genre of games that captivate us like it did when we were in our teens. We want more now becuase we see deeper, imagine more and expect something to challange us like it did when we were teens. Wisdom is our own foe in the gaming industry, becuase after a few years of high level mmo raiding, you become so good at it that nothing can challenge you anymore. Listen at me rambling, LOL.
Anyways I hope that you understand the points im trying to make, and know that even though i do support your post, its very unlikely that we few minority gamers of a aging breed, will ever find that nirvana moment we used to experience when we were teenagers, doing out first high end EQ raid, or 7x gm'ing our first tank mage in UO.
Cheers
It was a flicker of clarity in the foggy realm of shadowy chaos, where nothing was quite what it seemed, and everything was inevitably more treacherous and dangerous. But this, the crystalline glimmer of a single silken strand, shone brightly, cuaght his eye, and showed him all that it was and all that would soon be, and all that he was and all that he would soon be.
Ramzeppelin, you are poet and a scholar sir, and I am very glad I read your excellent post. You've managed to convey exactly what I have been trying to explain to people, ever since I got involved with MMORPG's.
As someone who has always had a love of rpg's for his entire life, from the pen and paper games, to modern, computer, role-playing games, picture the scene when I first saw the cineamtic trailor for World of Warcraft. I had not been connected to the internet, and wasn't familair with the MMO phenomenon. My imagination was churning away in my head at the prospect of playing in a virtual, living, breathing world. I pictured single player games, like Baldur's Gate 2, but with amazing graphics, and a vast amount of content.
When I finally did get hooked up to the net, my first MMO experience was Everquest 2. I saw the gameplay trailors, and was blown away. I had finally found my holy grail of gaming...or so I had thought. I played the trial, and to someone completely new to the genre, I was in ecstasy. The very next day, I rushed out and bought the game. After awhile though, it began to get a bit jaded (albeit, EQ2 is still my favourite MMO), so I tried others, and eventually even got around to buying WoW. I began to realise something. Other than the look of these games, they were all just variants of the same game. With WoW's remarkable success, I noticed that EQ2 began to change as well, it began to 'dumb itself down', so that quest givers, etc were marked, just like in WoW. It was, like you say, more akin to an arcade game than a virtual, fantasy world. Whilst playing these games, I began to wonder where the true storylines were, where the feeling of immersion was. Sure, these games have a story, but you never really feel involved. Then I realised that they were all sharing the same basic premise, go to npc, get a 'quest' (which ranged between a limited choice of 'fetch this' or 'kill that'), get a reward, find out a little bit of the story, repeat.
Now I have heard it argued that this is what role-playing games, be the single or not, are all about. To an extent, a lot of single player games do suffer from this, although they manage to dress it up with elaborate storylines, with dramatic cut-scenes, so that you do get involved in it. Howvever, the potential of the MMORPG meant that this genre could be taken to a new level, where gameplay was almost boundless. Instead, the genre if anything, went backwards. There was no feeling of immersion within the plot, no feeling that you were entering another world. How can a simple game played with pen and paper manage this feat, yet with all the technology to make the world in 3D, and with thousands of real people, it fails to come close to the atmosphere evoked?
The simple truth, as in most things, is that it all leads back to money. Seeing the fantastic success of WoW, I bet every chairman of every MMO company took one look at the profits, and thought how they could get a slice of the pie. They don't want to break boundaries, and make a game that will truly blow our minds, because they are too busy trying to mimic their own WoW. It is so frustrating, as the talent is out there, but it is not being utilised, because nobody is brave enough to break the current mould. So with every new MMORPG, we get more of the same, with maybe some variants in class, snazzier graphics, etc, but really just the same, old stuff. When I see a promising new MMO, I look at the f.a.q. and see to my utter disappointment people asking the same old questions. What will the crafting system be like? What races can you go? Will there be pvp? Blah, blah, blah.
Now I do enjoy MMO's, as for the moment, they are my favourite genre of game, but I do get eternally frustrated at the lack of ambition and imagination on offer, and I can see what could be done.
I had thought that Lord of the Rings MMO might be the start in a new direction. I had read somewhere that a lot of it was going to be story-based, taking away from the mind-numbing grind of pointless and constant fights. However, after reading Ramzeppelin's post, I am dis-heartened again, as it seems it is just going to be WoW-dressed up in Tolkien's garb.
Will there ever be something truly immersive, and original? I thought that D&D Online might have been the way, but I haven't played it yet, and the reviews have been very critical. So I doubt it.
Will I ever find my holy grail of MMORPG'ing? Who knows, but if you find it, tell me first!
Welcome to the growing underground population of MMORPG'ers that want more than "experience grind to endgame, then buy the next expansion and do it again". It is hard for developers to imagine, but there actually are players out there that believe the game should be about the journey to endgame, not about number of kills and phat loot.
Some of us watch Stargate to enjoy the show, other must watch it to see the credits at the end. That's about the only way to compare it. Remember, in the game of life, he who reaches endgame first, wins.
See my post history for the vanguard post I made to discuss some suggested differences in "the formula".
I have to agree with this. How many times have we all listened to the claims made for the next new immersive MMO experience, with fantastic graphics and a top-notch world, only to find themselves mercilessly killing some weedy training creatures as part of yet another starting quest. Worse, these creatures all live in some clearly defined zone, they amble about oblivious to the massacre of their neighbours, and worse of all- they pop up out of nowhere every so often.
At this point you know that yet another MMO has fallen into the usual dull conventions that have rigidly defined almost all MMOs since the beginning. You know that quests will be slight variants on "go here, kill X of these, come back", and that your character's life will involve the genocidal slaughter of hundreds of things purely because some stranger with a symbol over his head has asked you to and you might get a trinket.
You know that the your character will be travelling down a clearly signposted path towards greatness, and it doesn't matter if you personally are good with the controls, or can use the environment to advance stealthily, or realise that approaching an enemy from downwind would be an advantage, or that a well-aimed arrow to the head will end the combat quickly, because it's all handled by dice- often invisible ones- because it's an MMO, and the great unritten rule of MMOs is simple: time server == greatness. If you want to be able to whack bigger creatures, or trounce more of the player base, then you simply have to whack more creatures, spend more time grinding, and learn how to work the system that the game designers have spent ages trying to balance to reduce the amount of 'unfair' milking of the system that the lowest-common-denominators of the playerbase gravitate towards.
Why do they do this? Why are they willing to spend hours grinding easy mobs for the best loot? Because MMOs have other people in them, so you get to show off how great^H^H^H^H^H er how much time you've spent grinding repetitive tasks which means they're l337 by default. I'm still amazed that this short-sighted version of 'gameplay' has been allowed to survive for so long in the competitive online market. I've played too many MMOs where after a while you ask yourself the killer question- "Is this actually fun?"- and when you admit to yourself that it's really more like work than fun you have to cancel your sub and wait around for something that might actually change the way things work.
Except there probably isn't anything different coming up because all the games producers are frantically grinding the playerbase for loot themselves. There are a few upcoming games that might try a different angle on things, but I don't have much faith in any radical changes for at least another couple of years, when the EQ/WoW style of play has turned too many people off and they've decided it isn't "fun" for them any more.
I'm sure anyone that feels the same way can think of a dozen things that could be tried to push the genre forward. Yes, yes, a lot of people are happy with the way things are, and good for them. Personally I'm depressed that the way many 'gamers' approach MMOs is that they are time-sinks where the whole point is to accrue the best loot and have the highest stats to impress people with. To me that's not playing a game, that's looking at the stats required to run the game as the game itself- you work the system to max your stats and then work the gameworld to let you grind the fastest. Computer-driven MMO's don't need to show you the stats- they should be hidden away so you can concentrate on the world, not have coloured tags floating above 'mobs' so you can optimise your grinding technique. Visible stats are a hangover from the PnP days of RPGs, but they've somehow become the symbol of prestige for many players.
all i want for christmas...
a fantasy sandbox - big (i mean huge) world - many things to do to be entertained (exploring / mobs / raids / side games / crafting) - "open" char development (no classess to determine what skills you get) and no levels - many ways to go about playing the game...
i guess some are wondering what i mean by no classess / levels... i mean as your character develops YOU chose what kind of char YOU want and pick and chose skills and abilities that you might ordinary associate with clerics or theives or warriers or whatever, and no levels can be achieved in a variety of ways...
/agree
I'd like to see a 'world simulation', where the gameplay mechanics are largely hidden from view. Where you train yourself as much as your character to overcome situations. PCs can handle that sort of thing these days, but I don't see many MMOs aiming for that.
First off, that was a very articulate and thorough post. There were a lot of vague ideals and lofty goals that are easy to cheer for, but nigh impossible to implement. The main points in the post that drew my interest were...
Roleplaying is dead lets face it! but heres why...
Your reasons weren't entirely correct. The reason most people don't roleplay in MMOs is because most current MMO players came a straight CRPG background. These people played Baldur's Gate and Final Fantasy, but never picked up a twenty sided die or fought the wizard of Firetop Mountain. The concept of traditional roleplaying is simply beyond the scope of their experience.
the way games are being made is more like your playing a video game and less like your living and alter ego in another world.
A lot of this has to do with the limitations of the medium but I'll get to that shortly.
Anyone remember playing pen and paper dungeons and dragons? what was it that made that so much fun?
Now to bring up a really old argument. Older than MMOs. Older than CRPGS. Older than video games. Probably older than Television.
Visual media, like movies, TV shows, and video games, are detrimental to the imagination. A lot of what made pen and paper games so much fun was the same thing that made reading or storytelling around a campfire so much fun. Each person around the table had a different image of the scene and situation laid out by the GM. Formulating what those things looked, smelled, felt and sounded like, is what we commonly refer to as imagination. If you're looking for a game that really sparks your imagination, there are plenty of MUXes, MUSHes, and MOOs floating around. These are all text games, but that is the strength of text as a medium. It feeds the imagination and lets the audience fill in the blanks themselves.
When it comes to pure imagination, less is more. Most olde skoolers agree that the greatest computer game ever made was Elite. There are people playing it to this day and it only has very primitive vector graphics. Sensible Soccer had primitive graphics even by the standards of its time, yet players reported seeing animations that the developers never even included in the final build. this phenomenon was also discussed by Michael Abrash in his "Graphics Programming Blackbook." To sum up, what you don't include in your engine, the human brain will usually fill in automatically.... to a fault.
If you want to recapture that "pen and paper" feeling, you're going to have to go to the MUDs.
As far as making "sandbox games".... We need to figure out how to do this single player first. Yes, there's the Sims and Animal Crossing, but I'm talking about a completely different setting. Primarily, sci-fi and fantasy settings that most MMOs are almost obligated to provide.
On the purely space based sci-fi side of things, we have it covered. Elite, Escape Velocity, and Egosoft's X series of games have set the stage perfectly for any space type sandbox MMO. Eve online being the MMO proof of this concept.
Fantasy and ground focused sci-fi, on the other hand, have yet to produce the sandbox thing completely. The closest thing that we have to this is Dwarf Fortress. Maybe The Guild 2, but I don't think that would make a particularly exciting MMO. I'm currently working on a rogue-like that will come pretty close to a world simulation, but AI is proving to be a little more than I anticipated.
At any rate, we have to get it right single / multiplayer before we can step it up. That doesn't mean it won't ever happen BTW.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with your portrayal of sold-school games- Elite was graphically very primitve, yes, but you still felt as though you could go anywnere, and pick your own progression as a trader or bounty hunter, for example, but what made it a great game was that the combat was fun- you had some control over weapon loadouts, and while the game may have involved some primaevel version of 'grinding' for equipment, it didn't seem to just be rolling dice with auto-aim.
Similarly with Sensi Soccer- what people talk about wistfully is the control system- the way you could subtly apply aftertouch to curve balls gracefully into the goal and confound the keeper, certainly no-one says it's some stats-based game like some football management sim- player skill was paramount, and players would learn the skills required and get a great sense of achievement, or often just get really lucky which was just as good.
PnP games were and are great fun, and for many the dice-rolling was part of it- I used to DM games where I hid the 'system' and performed most actions myself, and others where everyong helped out with the bookkeeping- both kept the PCs entertained. What the graphical MMos of today offer shouldn't be overlooked- yes you may be spoon-fed the look of the world, and less imagination is required, but on the other hand you could actually swing the sword, the dice-rolling and Sneak skill stats could almost entirely be done away with.
Imagine if you're some fighter type in my ideal MMO- you'd find or craft or buy some really neat weapon, say a naginata you like the look of, or it fits what you'd like your character to be like. You take a few swings at the air with it, note how it moves with various movement/swing combinations, and go and book some training dummy for a while for a few gold. You learn what the rhythm of the weapon is, how a particular jump and swing combo works with shielded targets, how to string a few good moves together that work quickly or powerfully enough for you. After a bit you save some choice combinations in your hotbar or learn the commands required and go off to try them in real combat. Sure there will be some things that must be abtstracted, like strength, which may be racially-based or progress over time, but that actualy *playing* of the character is still largely up to you. With a game engine that isn't limited to a basic set of anumations, and that can track where the end of your blade goes, combat turns into a wildly risky, though hopefully fun event that is different every time.
Now compare what it so easily couild be with how current MMOs handle it- it's like they're so scared of antagonising the 'time-served' player mentality that any suggestion of skill being a levelling factor brings out hordes of people moaning about how it will turn into some railgun twitch-fest. I disagree with anyone who says it can't be done in an MMO environment- one of my fondest gamplaying memories is playing Planetside a good couple of years ago- you had to learn how to handle your chosen weapon, you had to learn how to work well in a small squad, and also the limitations of your factions equipment. Once I learned how to propely lead a target with my gauss gun, and the myriad possibilities of grenade launchers both indoors and out in the open, I actually trained *myself* to a higher level to work well in a squad- that, for me, is a far greater achievement than some arbitrary levelling up of some background stats. A good, well coordinated and mature squad could take on all-comers and sometimes beat off incredible odds, which is about as good as online gaming gets, in my opinion. Bear in mind this involved 200-odd people all shooting projectile weapons and driving vehicles in a resonably complex environment. I don't see why this can't be done using todays bandwidth and game engines using swords and crossbows.
This is just one area of MMO cliches I'd be happy to see the back of...
Now you mention that most people come from a CRPG background and thats how they approach MMOs. Well of course they do because the EQ model of MMO is Diablo with a higher player count. People arn't given freedom to make choices or define your character. In fact the EQ/WoW model punishes you for doing so. Take WoW lets say you roll a Tauran Druid and decide the Undead are against the natural order yada yada yada. You if you don't do quest for Undead NPCs your gimping yourself. If you dont team with Undead players your gimping your team. It's not a system designed to let or even encourage you to roleplay its a system designed to railroad you into doing the same content as everyone else in the same way as everyone else.
Sad to say, but yes. Exactly.
Seems like there's a mentality among devs these days, that serious gamers are in the minority, and the real money comes from noobs. The people who don't play video games, but might give one a shot, if you base your MMO on thier favorite franchise.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
To the OP:
The last time a game company developed a game such as you describe, it got NGE'd (well, first it got CUed then it got NGE'd). Why, you ask? Subscription count envy. 300k vs. 8 million. Greedy SOBs FTW.
The things you're looking for in a MMO sound great, and I largely agree with your argument, but to be honest your desires are not those of the majority. More subs = more revenue, hence most game companies are going with the desires of the majority, which means you get table scraps. Your best hope is that this (potentially significant) niche market is recognized and MMOs are developed by companies to take advantage of the financial opportunities therein. Good luck, because the companies aren't really interested in that right now, with WoW yielding such thundering headlines about subscription counts. If it does, though, I'll be right there with you looking for a better, more challenging MMO.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
First of all I wanna say thanks. I mean it. thanks for the responses. I hope you all come back to this thread to at least hear me say thank you. Ive always hated forumns because of all the negativity to everything said but even those that disagreed were really respectful ( although in one case I felt that need to disagree
LoL
But I would Like to address a few things .
I totally think differently from the person that said people dont roleplay because of thier age/generation and the style they come from. They would almost all happily roleplay if the game was designed that way I truely believe. heres why I think so.
The games we have do not challenge our morality and they do not make us care about our characters in the way needed. what kills me is we have the ability to do that now, unlike 1 or 2 suggested.
Let me use Baldurs Gate 2 as an example, in that game you were forced as you played through to care about your character. even the most non RP type personality had to a little no matter how much they just wanted to kill stuff and progress.( BTW this is one of the most overlooked things about game design, people who just rush through MMO's do so without thought because they can, the job of developers should be to challenge them on points like these and thats exactly what games like WoW are not doing!) The reason was the NPC's had real personalities and the choices you made affected how others viewed you and even how the game progressed. Also you were given choices!!! that was vital.
I do not mean a choice like, should I be an undead horde of and alliance paladin..well hold on, actually I do mean that!! I'm sorry I take that back. but it didnt end there! In WoW after you take on playing as a paladin you are never expected to live up to that!!!! thats huge!!!! exclamation marks forever I say to that!!! LoL . Seriously though, it is totally within the power of game makers to constantly and subtley force us to roleplay, and there is no doubt at all in my mind that 99% of the playerbase would enjoy the game more and feel closer both to the game and to thier character as a result.
Think about that if you wouldnt mind. For me as I type I seriously have to think deeply on that one. my mind was just wondering at how with even a few of my ideas games Like WoW would improve in my eyes by huge leaps.
Before I forget I wanted to address the issue also that we cannot make what was called a "sandbox game " now.
I really dislike this even being said because I think it is a limiting statement, and one that limits in our minds when it is exactly the opposite to me. To say MMO's cannot do it is to say our imaginations arnt yet fit for it and that gaming companies are unable. Not only do I believe nothing is out of reach as far as making a truly non linear game goes but I think that once we start making games non linear it will take us places that we never could have dreamed of til we head down that path!
I would love it if your take the time to read a thought me and my son had just today, I think it is a groundbreaking notion and it came from an 8 year old.
He collected flowers in World of Warcraft to make potions when we played it. he actually quit before I did, but when he heard me talking about the game he said the following. "Dad I hated the way you had to collect flowers to make potions, why didnt they make it like in star wars galaxies where you had a house and behind your house you could have a big garden where you grew the flowers like mom and I do? It would be more fun trying to grow what you need cuase you have to think of what season to plant in and how much water and youd have to keep the bugs out of your garden so we could make the garlic spray....
Needless to say I was flabbergasted, all of a sudden I realized 2 things, my son knows way more about gardening then I do, and thats exatly the kind of things I hear MMO crafters unknoiwngly complain about. I mean because I hear many crafter enthusiast not wanting to have to fight to craft. What a great idea!
It makes crafting both fun and a serious challenge.....all of a sudden we had thought of so many ideas for alchemist, my wife who has tried and dislikes MMO's said, I wanna play that game! so then we started applying that same imagination to other crafts...we were giddy. And there is no way you can tell me it is beyond our capabilities to put those ideas into a game.
Once those ideas are in a game you are now entering non linear gameplay, you no longer have to grind your character though boring fight after boring fight to be a tradesman, but you do have to learn a helluva lot secrets about growing things to be good at it! If you keep it going like we did youd realize that non linear gameplay is very possible.
I have to go out for a bit so I end the post here....thanks again for the responses, I read them all and I hope more well thought post follow this. I enjoy reading post more when people take the time to explain themselves in detail like ya'' did.
And I truly hope that we can change some minds, because another thing I wanted to respond to was that some thought because most people are happy with the WoW type game things wont change, because I for one believe if warcraft implemented good ideas those people would be much happier playing the game.
the smaller companies oddly are doing most of the innovation. imagine if blizzard took its 1 billion(its really a mere 100 million a month
) dollars a month and implemented great ideas! and they are not the only ones making more then enough to do it with financial ease!
EDIT PS I just wanted to add somthing that I always forget to say. World of Warcraft isnt huge because its dummed down (course it is dumbed down), its huge because its the best at the current formula. It came out at just the time many people were trying MMo's for the first time! It had to happen eventually and this was the time and place in history when americans were willing in large numbers to PAY to play a game...they had heard from thier friends how much fun EQ, SWG, DAOC and CoH were and all of a sudden EQ2 was getting movie type hype!!!!!! It was EQ2 not WoW that was on most peoples radar.
Commercials ON TV? this was new at the time! EQ2 advertised voice acting including the voice of darth sidious at the time star wars was hot. So really EQ2 is to thank for WoW's success. All of a sudden milions of noobs were trying one or both of these games. While most of the noobs in EQ2 wanted to play on thier own to figure this new type of game out people playing WoW were doing the same in a game designed for just that. So off by the many thousands people went from EQ2 to WoW and not only did they find they could solo but they found it way easier to understand!
Now Im telling you this, those same people would happily welcome a non linear game that offered hundreds of new things to do as long as it wasnt too confusing from the start! but it now has to also live up to fluid animation and solid PvP. because hate WoW but please admit it did polish the things it did better then others! NO, I tell you here and now that as a market we are ready for our imaginations to be engaged again in an MMO! just do it right and it will have 20 million people instead of 6!
I want to start by saying thank you. This is the very first forum thread I have read anywhere on the internet where all the posters agreed that change is needed in this industry. Everywhere I have posted this opinion all that I have ever seen is a backlash of retorts on why the game they are playing is great and pretty much no real DEEP thought into why they play and what makes games fun. The same thing that makes life fun; FREEDOM! Freedom is what all people on this planet cherish or strive for. I believe that it is no different in the virtual world. Now constraints and parameters are needed, without them you have nothing more than a blank page, and while some might have the imagination to create a fully enjoyable experience out of a blank page, most wont.
Hang in there guys. It is coming, it will take some time but it is coming. I have been thinking about this very concept for over two years now. I have always been a dreamer of sorts and now, I’m willing to make my dream, a reality. I don’t quite know how and when but I will produce what is needed for those who have matured and know want a “real” experience, not just a virtual one.
I have been seriously gaming for over 15 years, from pen and paper, to console, and finally to the internet. The internet is what I believed had the best hope of matching my D&D days, the one medium that could finally out do what I had experienced so many years ago. I still believe this. I guess I didn’t realize that I would have to help it along. Now, I have decided to take on that responsibility, even though others laugh ( I mentioned this during my weekend preview of LORTO, I gave the populous about two great hours of entertainment ) I will still push forward with ideas that I feel are blatantly obvious but possibly being overlooked for whatever reasons.
A lot of you have mentioned small parts of what I have already added to my game design but I am frightened to talk to openly about it in case good ideas are just taken and not implemented as a whole. I am not that interested in riches, I am however interested in the idea being complete and well done, giving the utmost in quality to those who purchase it, using up both their money AND time. I am, as any creative person is, interested in being, if not the leader of this project a large part of it. I now place as much of my energy everyday into this project; I dream that it will pay off, at this time that’s good enough for me.
I love thinking about concepts and new ways to implement systems that do work, that do engage and entertain the player. Not everything is problematic and dull, restraining us to a track. Many of the things in a lot of these games are ingenious and I believe, just weren’t implemented properly or in the proper framework.
I guess it helps that I am an arrogant person in general; if I wasn’t overly confident then I would believe that someone else will come up with this soon. I always believe I’m a couple years ahead of the pack when it comes to my ideas and schemes, and who knows, maybe I’m decades and centuries ahead in some cases. What I do know is that you all should not look at yourselves as the old generation, but rather as the matured generation. Your taste buds have sampled many a poor vintage, and now understand what a truly enjoyable “bottle” would taste like.
Ready your taste buds, I promise it will be here within the decade, or at least in beta.
I was going to give out some carefully selected general tidbits, but as I wrote my examples down I felt compelled to give out more information then I know I should and that the information that I was going to give out was out of context if you don’t have the whole detailed mass.
If you are interested in conversing with me about this subject I would be glad to get to know you all better and then if I felt comfortable enough, possibly release some info.
I really enjoyed reading all your posts, keep up the non linear thinking and dream for a better tomorrow, it will take a while but it is indeed on the horizon.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
You didn't read and you still know he is jackass??
i agree with the OP. Thats the reason why i am putting all my hopes on Tabula Rasa. And your post is much better then that other post where the OP has paid a lot more attention to calling people names and abusing them. Thats why i totally agree with you because you really know how to express your opinion.
is my thread shows what i would like to see
I invite others to do the same post in boards what you want to see everythign from stratics to mmorpg.com email companies what you'd like to see
hell spam mail em over and over with what you want.
First of all a big thanks man. I totally agree with you. Few month earlier i have posted a poll thread to find out if people would play the game i have in my vision. It took me 6 years and 3 month to finish my research in MMORPG genre and another full year to complete game concept which would unite all those different aspects of the MMO's we are looking for under one roof. I went through hundreds of different researches such as Nick Yee's The Daedalus Project and interviewed personally over a thousand players within the games i played (AC, AC2, UO, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, Horizons, SWG, WoW etc.). One thing Im totally convinced now and completely agree with you is that a "proper" MMORPG must be done by US actual players. Here is what I have posted skipping hundreds of pages of actual game design concept and moduls of gameplay:
_________________________________
Played:
AC, AC2, UO, AO, EQ, EQ2, Shadowbane, DAoC, Horisons, SWG, EVE, L2, GW, WoW, DDO, LotRO
Beta tested:
AC, AC2, EQ2, SWG, Horisons, WoW, Archlord, LotRO, Espado Granada, Vanguard
Currently playing: AoC
I see myself as vetran player i started back in 99 with mmo.
Asheron calls was amazing back then:)
But i play mmo becouse you can play with thousends on one server.
For me most i want is its hardcore in most ways to rais character to be stronger ,lvl if its via xp or skills nomatter need open pvp and no easy quests no easy guide you through the game EXPLORE how game works how world is how gameplay is the harder the better i like it.
There must be walking running or mount travel i dont like alot of instant portalling in a mmo.(I did not like Oblivion that much to much easy travel)
If some wanne roleplay fine its not my cup of tea .
Only rp i do is im 100% anti and true enemy of all pk:P
But game must be a true adventure thats far more complex then games like wow.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Also, keep this thread alive guys, keep it flowing with ideas.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -