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Let's talk about MMORPG aspects we'd like to see.

retrospecticretrospectic Member UncommonPosts: 1,466
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
  • Quests with goals that make sense
    • Please fill me in on what a quest at level 20 should require, and how games like WoW could improve them for a wide audience
  • Character Models
    • What could MMO companies do that would make a wide audience happy while still performing on a wide range of computers
  • Rewards
    • What could an MMO company do that steers away from "grinding all the damn time" as a means for progression.  What would be fair as a reward for more dedicated players?


Since all I've heard on the board for the past few weeks on the subject of WoW is the amount of things that suck, please fill me in on innovations you personally have thought of.  Please also explain to me how these could be utilized by a mass audience.  I am really tired of hearing a bunch of QQ with no solutions.

Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde

Comments

  • osc8rosc8r Member UncommonPosts: 688
    Originally posted by retrospectic



    Quests with goals that make sense

    Please fill me in on what a quest at level 20 should require, and how games like WoW could improve them for a wide audience


    Rewards

    What could an MMO company do that steers away from "grinding all the damn time" as a means for progression.  What would be fair as a reward for more dedicated players?







    Since all I've heard on the board for the past few weeks on the subject of WoW is the amount of things that suck, please fill me in on innovations you personally have thought of.  Please also explain to me how these could be utilized by a mass audience.  I am really tired of hearing a bunch of QQ with no solutions.

    In reply to your first point, and also touching on your third point - AC had a good variety of quests. For example there were ones where you could trigger traps in certain dungeons where a huge boulder would get released and you would be running indian jones style trying not to get squished. Another one may involve you finding certain raw materials in rocky regions that you would then need to get smelted down by a specific NPC, and then finally crafted by a player crafter - the quality of the resulting item was dependant on his skill.



    Others involved jumping over certain ravines or from ledge to ledge (jump skill) or solving certain puzzles and even gambling. There were also 'hints' from certain NPC's or lore that gave you clues on a specific item of power. For example people were finding these little orange 'motes' on some of the highest level creatures and had no idea what to do with them...until someone put the clues together and created something of beauty :)



    There were also extremely rare creatures that would inhabit certain regions, for example a large mattekar creature that inhabitted the snow topped mountains - and was hunted down harshly in search for their 'hide'. Once the hide was found it could be crafted into a chestplate offering specific protection to the wearer (such as cold damage) yet due to the increased hunting of these creatures they finally went extinct. This is a good example of how LIVE events or a dynamic world can add a new level of immersion to a game. Another example of a live event is where an asteroid hit one of the NPC towns, which in turn became nothing but a huge crater.



    Thats not to mention the ongoing battle against 'evil'. Where NPC creatures (or on occasion, dev controlled) would attack certain towns and players would form together to fight the new threat. Or the extremely difficult quests that could be completed only ONCE per server, and a server wide message would broadcast the events outcome to everyone.



    Variety is the key.



    These are just a few examples i can recall from the top of my head.



    It seems we have gone backwards in terms of quest variety and complexity IMO.
  • Pk4UPk4U Member Posts: 127

    Optional Armor - Clothing, and armor, with reasons to use both. In clothing you would be quicker, but of course more vulnerable. In armor you would be slower, and tire quicker, but be much harder to kill.

    True wounds - Wounds that do lasting damage, until healed. With substantial, but not crippling penaltys.

    Specialization - Less classes, maybe no classes. Let people pick what they want, and work towards it. It lets people have fun on their terms.

  • XApotheosisXXApotheosisX Member Posts: 277
    Originally posted by retrospectic



    Quests with goals that make sense

    Please fill me in on what a quest at level 20 should require, and how games like WoW could improve them for a wide audience


    Character Models

    What could MMO companies do that would make a wide audience happy while still performing on a wide range of computers


    Rewards

    What could an MMO company do that steers away from "grinding all the damn time" as a means for progression.  What would be fair as a reward for more dedicated players?







    Since all I've heard on the board for the past few weeks on the subject of WoW is the amount of things that suck, please fill me in on innovations you personally have thought of.  Please also explain to me how these could be utilized by a mass audience.  I am really tired of hearing a bunch of QQ with no solutions.



    one of the coolest quests i was ever apart of was in EQ2 the "hoo'loh" hat quest. In one part of the quest you had to "stealth" your way through an instanced zone filled with enemies. You were in disguise as one of the enemies so you could get pretty close to the enemies but if you got TOO close your cover was broken and you had to start all over.

    this would be a cool quest for a stealth class too, maybe stealth through a castle in order to assassinate the top dog. and please spare me the "lag" comments. I did the above quest with a 1.6 ghz processor with 1gb of ram and a 64 mb video card ... on the first try. I did not lag into anything.

    Another quest In EQ2 was something about a cleansing in order to become an inquisitor. you walked into this room and a bunch of relics damaged you and put status effects on you. You had to cure yourself and remove said status effects. Something to a larger extent could be done im sure.

    Have multiperson dungeon quests where people have to split up and figure out puzzles to unlock the path for the next person.

    I think you can take CoH/V model and go bonkers with the idea of instanced quests tailor made to a group. I know Instanced is a bad word but if done right it could be a great addition. Don't have to worry about people killing the guy you needed "oh man i needed that guy why did you kill him?!?! now i have to wait for him to respawn. Plus you can have great scripted encounters. Mayhem missions = drool god would i love to see something like that in a fantasy MMO.

    Customization - WOW SUCKS! just wanted to get that out of the way. As for performance, I was playing SWG and EQ2 on that same 1.6ghz PC with little to no problem. I would say use those two games especially SWG as models for the future.

    Rewards - I think companies should get away from uber loot as the ONLY reward. I had this idea a few days ago, what if instead of just loot you got advancement from quests. So for eample you go on some quest given by some NPC and when you complete it you have the choice of ...

    "I Will give you a vial of a magic remedy... " - that in essence gives you more HP ... permanently.

    "For this I show you how to wield your sword ... " - allows you to choose a combat ability.

    "I will send you to one of our most skilled prophets ... " - allowing you to become a better healer

    "I will grant you access to the kingdoms vaults .. " - allowing you to choose a weapon/piece of armor.

    and so on and so forth

    this way people can build thier own characters, so if i want to be the standard tank i would look for more quests that offer me "the magic remedy". if i wanted to be a healer, look for more quests to seek teaching of the "prophets". but also alow you to mix and match as you wish. Now obviously there has to be some sort of limit so that you don't become godlike, so maybe add a point system ala SWG. where as you have 250 points and everytime you gain a vial of HP potion and use it ... it takes 5 or so of those points away.

     

  • JenuvielJenuviel Member Posts: 960
    What do I want most? Dynamic, personal, evolving story arcs for each and every character. They don't have to be incredibly detailed. I'm talking something like a randomly generated plot point every time you enter a new area or talk to important npcs. Each time a result is generated, it opens up a tree of logical storyline progressions (removing some entries from the random list and including others based on the story tree you happened to be on). Over time, more story trees and events could be patched into the game. Think of it sort of like those old "Choose Your Own Adventure" books: each time you  make a choice, it opens up new choices. Unlike a book, though, the random event rolls would help keep it unpredictable.



    I know a lot of advocates of "sandbox" games will probably dislike this idea, since they generally believe it's "better" to have complete control over their own directions, but I really like the idea of a life that actually progresses, that actually has a series of events and themes unique to it, a life in which some of the story elements are developed by the computer.



    Most of the online roleplaying I've done has more or less involved the players becoming both the protagonists and the "dungeonmasters" of their own storylines, and I'd really like to see the computer start to pull some of that "DM" weight so I can go back to being an actor in the play again, instead of the writer, director, producer, and casting agent. In my mind, the essence of a character isn't what happens to them, it's how they react to it. If the computer can provide some interesting, dynamic events for me to react to, I'll take care of the rest.
  • retrospecticretrospectic Member UncommonPosts: 1,466
    Originally posted by XApotheosisX



    one of the coolest quests i was ever apart of was in EQ2 the "hoo'loh" hat quest. In one part of the quest you had to "stealth" your way through an instanced zone filled with enemies. You were in disguise as one of the enemies so you could get pretty close to the enemies but if you got TOO close your cover was broken and you had to start all over.



    This sounds a lot like a single player mission.  Also, a lot of content in  World of Warcraft can be accomplished by stealthing.  I know for a fact that a quest in the 30s for a dungeon can be completed by a clever rogue in the early 20s.  I have also done a few missions in which I was disguised as a member of a cult or some other entity in order to get information out of several members.  Also, a lot of these quests are "higher level" and make sense as such.



    Also, there is a quest in the dungeon Dire Maul in which a player makes and wears an Ogre suit in order to complete a portion of a dungeon.  These "tribute runs" reward players more loot for less boss fights. 

    this would be a cool quest for a stealth class too, maybe stealth through a castle in order to assassinate the top dog. and please spare me the "lag" comments. I did the above quest with a 1.6 ghz processor with 1gb of ram and a 64 mb video card ... on the first try. I did not lag into anything.

    I don't think about lag for this aspect at all.  If a user participates in a quest in a full dungeon, they go in realizing that lag could be an issue.  Also, if you are doing a mission that involves sneaking around, lag might not be such a problem.

    Another quest In EQ2 was something about a cleansing in order to become an inquisitor. you walked into this room and a bunch of relics damaged you and put status effects on you. You had to cure yourself and remove said status effects. Something to a larger extent could be done im sure.

    There are multiple quests in World of Warcraft that offer a similar experience.  One I can think of is the quest that allows you to advance in First Aid.  There is a building which houses wounded and dying soldiers of your faction.  You are given an allotment of bandages and the mission to cure the sick soldiers before they die.  You have a limited time to apply medical attention to these soldiers.  There are also quests in which you have to die in order to complete parts, ones that involve flying around bombing other factions, etc.

    Have multiperson dungeon quests where people have to split up and figure out puzzles to unlock the path for the next person.

    Now this is actually the most intelligent thing I've heard you say in a while.  The only qualm I have with this is how "Zelda" it makes the game.  Sure, having complex boss fights, large trash fights, and different quests that unlock different aspects of a dungeon are already in most MMOs, I have yet to experience an actual puzzle that isn't pushing a button or killing mobs in order.  It would be interesting to see a group have to split up.

    I think you can take CoH/V model and go bonkers with the idea of instanced quests tailor made to a group. I know Instanced is a bad word but if done right it could be a great addition. Don't have to worry about people killing the guy you needed "oh man i needed that guy why did you kill him?!?! now i have to wait for him to respawn. Plus you can have great scripted encounters. Mayhem missions = drool god would i love to see something like that in a fantasy MMO.

    I am not too familiar with CoX because I really had no fun playing that game.  The instancing of missions creates a very uninvolved experience for me.  The more instancing I see in a game, the less I like it.  World of Warcraft placed instances as a PvP/Dungeon only aspect because single player content is just more...."real" when other players are also after it.  This does create some headaches, but I really don't enjoy scripting when no one else experiences it.

    Customization - WOW SUCKS! just wanted to get that out of the way. As for performance, I was playing SWG and EQ2 on that same 1.6ghz PC with little to no problem. I would say use those two games especially SWG as models for the future.

    I know you hate WoW.  You've made several poor attempts at denouncing the game from a level 20 perspective.  Although World of Warcraft does have a more limited character creation screen, I think the games that offer more customization sort of....fail at other aspects.  SW:G Failed at every other part of an MMO after the NGE and the Jedi fiasco.  CoH feels like a multiple player town with a bunch of single player missions that are all the same.

    Rewards - I think companies should get away from uber loot as the ONLY reward. I had this idea a few days ago, what if instead of just loot you got advancement from quests. So for eample you go on some quest given by some NPC and when you complete it you have the choice of ...

    "I Will give you a vial of a magic remedy... " - that in essence gives you more HP ... permanently.

    "For this I show you how to wield your sword ... " - allows you to choose a combat ability.

    "I will send you to one of our most skilled prophets ... " - allowing you to become a better healer

    "I will grant you access to the kingdoms vaults .. " - allowing you to choose a weapon/piece of armor.

    and so on and so forth

    -cough-Diablo 2-cough-

    A lot of these kinds of rewards I can break down.

    1.  More HP forever -  Many loot rewards in Outland in World of Warcraft offer mucho Stamina.  These items will only be replaced by dungeon loot which will give you more hp again.

    2. Combat Abilities - In most MMORPGs leveling opens up new combat abilities.  You level by completing quests and killing mobs.  I would also like to point out that WARLOCKs and many other classes in World of Warcraft only get certain spells, mounts, and weapons for their class if they complete quests.

    3.  Healing Abilities -  Two fold here.  One, items as rewards with +healing.  Two, leveling to gain better heals/experience.

    4.  Vault -  Cheesy way of saying "Here is some armor." which is already in most games.

    this way people can build thier own characters, so if i want to be the standard tank i would look for more quests that offer me "the magic remedy". if i wanted to be a healer, look for more quests to seek teaching of the "prophets". but also alow you to mix and match as you wish. Now obviously there has to be some sort of limit so that you don't become godlike, so maybe add a point system ala SWG. where as you have 250 points and everytime you gain a vial of HP potion and use it ... it takes 5 or so of those points away.

    I must bring something up here.  World of Warcraft, along with many other MMORPGs, allows for a lot of customization for their characters.  Not only do all classes have a set of spells/abilities, but all classes can also further customize using talents.  What you've just expressed is a desire to start out with a blank page character and add your own collection of skills until you become some hybrid of all skills you find appealing.  That becomes more and more of a single player game the more you become self-sustaining.  MULTIPLAYER games work because one player can't survive 100% of the time by themselves.  The game you are describing sounds like ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE.


     

    Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde

  • XApotheosisXXApotheosisX Member Posts: 277
    Originally posted by retrospectic


    Originally posted by XApotheosisX



    one of the coolest quests i was ever apart of was in EQ2 the "hoo'loh" hat quest. In one part of the quest you had to "stealth" your way through an instanced zone filled with enemies. You were in disguise as one of the enemies so you could get pretty close to the enemies but if you got TOO close your cover was broken and you had to start all over.



    This sounds a lot like a single player mission.  Also, a lot of content in  World of Warcraft can be accomplished by stealthing.  I know for a fact that a quest in the 30s for a dungeon can be completed by a clever rogue in the early 20s.  I have also done a few missions in which I was disguised as a member of a cult or some other entity in order to get information out of several members.  Also, a lot of these quests are "higher level" and make sense as such.
    not the same thing at all just because it can be done via stealth does not mean anything.



    Also, there is a quest in the dungeon Dire Maul in which a player makes and wears an Ogre suit in order to complete a portion of a dungeon.  These "tribute runs" reward players more loot for less boss fights. 
    this would be a cool quest for a stealth class too, maybe stealth through a castle in order to assassinate the top dog. and please spare me the "lag" comments. I did the above quest with a 1.6 ghz processor with 1gb of ram and a 64 mb video card ... on the first try. I did not lag into anything.
    I don't think about lag for this aspect at all.  If a user participates in a quest in a full dungeon, they go in realizing that lag could be an issue.  Also, if you are doing a mission that involves sneaking around, lag might not be such a problem.


    Another quest In EQ2 was something about a cleansing in order to become an inquisitor. you walked into this room and a bunch of relics damaged you and put status effects on you. You had to cure yourself and remove said status effects. Something to a larger extent could be done im sure.
    There are multiple quests in World of Warcraft that offer a similar experience.  One I can think of is the quest that allows you to advance in First Aid.  There is a building which houses wounded and dying soldiers of your faction.  You are given an allotment of bandages and the mission to cure the sick soldiers before they die.  You have a limited time to apply medical attention to these soldiers.  There are also quests in which you have to die in order to complete parts, ones that involve flying around bombing other factions, etc.
    great WoW has a few creative ideas .... too bad thats probably less than 5% of the total game.


    Have multiperson dungeon quests where people have to split up and figure out puzzles to unlock the path for the next person.
    Now this is actually the most intelligent thing I've heard you say in a while.  The only qualm I have with this is how "Zelda" it makes the game.  Sure, having complex boss fights, large trash fights, and different quests that unlock different aspects of a dungeon are already in most MMOs, I have yet to experience an actual puzzle that isn't pushing a button or killing mobs in order.  It would be interesting to see a group have to split up.
    How "Zelda" it makes the game?!?! are you kidding me? the game already looks and feels like a bad saturday morning cartoon. with stupid mobs that "skip" torward you after you attack them. Or Moonkins that look like, hell i don't even know what the F they look like.  And you're worried its going to feel like zelda feeling like zelda would be a fricken upgrade to it.


    I think you can take CoH/V model and go bonkers with the idea of instanced quests tailor made to a group. I know Instanced is a bad word but if done right it could be a great addition. Don't have to worry about people killing the guy you needed "oh man i needed that guy why did you kill him?!?! now i have to wait for him to respawn. Plus you can have great scripted encounters. Mayhem missions = drool god would i love to see something like that in a fantasy MMO.
    I am not too familiar with CoX because I really had no fun playing that game.  The instancing of missions creates a very uninvolved experience for me.  The more instancing I see in a game, the less I like it.  World of Warcraft placed instances as a PvP/Dungeon only aspect because single player content is just more...."real" when other players are also after it.  This does create some headaches, but I really don't enjoy scripting when no one else experiences it.
    well then thats YOUR issue, you want more complex quests you're going to have to get over it. I played Co/H/V for a few months and I never felt lilke i was uninvolved. if you don't instance it you will never get beyond the BS "kill this guy, then kill this guy and get his key to kill this guy". because as soon as you need to kill the last guy and get to him you can bet there will be another group racing to him and probably a chinese farmer or two waiting at the final guy when you get there./
    I don't get the whole "omg instance sucks" attitude maybe if when i logged in i got sent to a browser with different dungeons then i might feel detached. But in games like CoV/H and even EQ2 which has lots of instanced zone ... i never did.


    Customization - WOW SUCKS! just wanted to get that out of the way. As for performance, I was playing SWG and EQ2 on that same 1.6ghz PC with little to no problem. I would say use those two games especially SWG as models for the future.
    I know you hate WoW.  You've made several poor attempts at denouncing the game from a level 20 perspective.  Although World of Warcraft does have a more limited character creation screen, I think the games that offer more customization sort of....fail at other aspects.  SW:G Failed at every other part of an MMO after the NGE and the Jedi fiasco.  CoH feels like a multiple player town with a bunch of single player missions that are all the same.
    Underlined = completely irrelevant, you asked about customization solely not it plus other factors. if you don't like the answer, tough .... change the question. Also "failing" is a matter of your opinion, post NGE is crap i agree but again thats just my opinion. I don't think SWG failed especially Pre-nge, in fact i think it was one of the most innovative and entertaining games around.


    Rewards - I think companies should get away from uber loot as the ONLY reward. I had this idea a few days ago, what if instead of just loot you got advancement from quests. So for eample you go on some quest given by some NPC and when you complete it you have the choice of ...
    "I Will give you a vial of a magic remedy... " - that in essence gives you more HP ... permanently.

    "For this I show you how to wield your sword ... " - allows you to choose a combat ability.

    "I will send you to one of our most skilled prophets ... " - allowing you to become a better healer

    "I will grant you access to the kingdoms vaults .. " - allowing you to choose a weapon/piece of armor.

    and so on and so forth
    -cough-Diablo 2-cough-
    A lot of these kinds of rewards I can break down.
    1.  More HP forever -  Many loot rewards in Outland in World of Warcraft offer mucho Stamina.  These items will only be replaced by dungeon loot which will give you more hp again.
    2. Combat Abilities - In most MMORPGs leveling opens up new combat abilities.  You level by completing quests and killing mobs.  I would also like to point out that WARLOCKs and many other classes in World of Warcraft only get certain spells, mounts, and weapons for their class if they complete quests.
    3.  Healing Abilities -  Two fold here.  One, items as rewards with +healing.  Two, leveling to gain better heals/experience.
    4.  Vault -  Cheesy way of saying "Here is some armor." which is already in most games.
    again those are just examples, I don't get paid to come up with huge complex ideas so i'm throwing out simple ones so even WoW fans can understand it. If it was up to me, you would have many choices on ways to heal, wards, HoTs, as well as Eq2s reactive heals that would be choices. Different schools of magic fire, ice , earth as well as others .... all gain via quests. So like i said you can mix and match creating your own character instead of having to choose a predetermined class.


    just to state this outright even though i thought it would be obvious .... the "innovation" behind the system would not be the skills themselves, but how you gained them and the idea that you can mix and match and create a completely unique character.
    this way people can build thier own characters, so if i want to be the standard tank i would look for more quests that offer me "the magic remedy". if i wanted to be a healer, look for more quests to seek teaching of the "prophets". but also alow you to mix and match as you wish. Now obviously there has to be some sort of limit so that you don't become godlike, so maybe add a point system ala SWG. where as you have 250 points and everytime you gain a vial of HP potion and use it ... it takes 5 or so of those points away.
    I must bring something up here.  World of Warcraft, along with many other MMORPGs, allows for a lot of customization for their characters.  Not only do all classes have a set of spells/abilities, but all classes can also further customize using talents.  What you've just expressed is a desire to start out with a blank page character and add your own collection of skills until you become some hybrid of all skills you find appealing.  That becomes more and more of a single player game the more you become self-sustaining.  MULTIPLAYER games work because one player can't survive 100% of the time by themselves.  The game you are describing sounds like ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE.
    what are you talking about, WoW is the most solo friendly game around so therefore in WOW you can SURVIVE by yourself. And you are talking about boss content, even in SWG where you had total control over your character you could not survive solo 100% of the time ... so guess there goes that bullshit statement huh?


     


  • retrospecticretrospectic Member UncommonPosts: 1,466
    Originally posted by XApotheosisX

    Originally posted by retrospectic


    Originally posted by XApotheosisX



    one of the coolest quests i was ever apart of was in EQ2 the "hoo'loh" hat quest. In one part of the quest you had to "stealth" your way through an instanced zone filled with enemies. You were in disguise as one of the enemies so you could get pretty close to the enemies but if you got TOO close your cover was broken and you had to start all over.



    This sounds a lot like a single player mission.  Also, a lot of content in  World of Warcraft can be accomplished by stealthing.  I know for a fact that a quest in the 30s for a dungeon can be completed by a clever rogue in the early 20s.  I have also done a few missions in which I was disguised as a member of a cult or some other entity in order to get information out of several members.  Also, a lot of these quests are "higher level" and make sense as such.
    not the same thing at all just because it can be done via stealth does not mean anything.



    Also, there is a quest in the dungeon Dire Maul in which a player makes and wears an Ogre suit in order to complete a portion of a dungeon.  These "tribute runs" reward players more loot for less boss fights. 
    this would be a cool quest for a stealth class too, maybe stealth through a castle in order to assassinate the top dog. and please spare me the "lag" comments. I did the above quest with a 1.6 ghz processor with 1gb of ram and a 64 mb video card ... on the first try. I did not lag into anything.
    I don't think about lag for this aspect at all.  If a user participates in a quest in a full dungeon, they go in realizing that lag could be an issue.  Also, if you are doing a mission that involves sneaking around, lag might not be such a problem.


    Another quest In EQ2 was something about a cleansing in order to become an inquisitor. you walked into this room and a bunch of relics damaged you and put status effects on you. You had to cure yourself and remove said status effects. Something to a larger extent could be done im sure.
    There are multiple quests in World of Warcraft that offer a similar experience.  One I can think of is the quest that allows you to advance in First Aid.  There is a building which houses wounded and dying soldiers of your faction.  You are given an allotment of bandages and the mission to cure the sick soldiers before they die.  You have a limited time to apply medical attention to these soldiers.  There are also quests in which you have to die in order to complete parts, ones that involve flying around bombing other factions, etc.
    great WoW has a few creative ideas .... too bad thats probably less than 5% of the total game.
    Have multiperson dungeon quests where people have to split up and figure out puzzles to unlock the path for the next person.
    Now this is actually the most intelligent thing I've heard you say in a while.  The only qualm I have with this is how "Zelda" it makes the game.  Sure, having complex boss fights, large trash fights, and different quests that unlock different aspects of a dungeon are already in most MMOs, I have yet to experience an actual puzzle that isn't pushing a button or killing mobs in order.  It would be interesting to see a group have to split up.
    How "Zelda" it makes the game?!?! are you kidding me? the game already looks and feels like a bad saturday morning cartoon. with stupid mobs that "skip" torward you after you attack them. Or Moonkins that look like, hell i don't even know what the F they look like.  And you're worried its going to feel like zelda feeling like zelda would be a fricken upgrade to it.


    I think you can take CoH/V model and go bonkers with the idea of instanced quests tailor made to a group. I know Instanced is a bad word but if done right it could be a great addition. Don't have to worry about people killing the guy you needed "oh man i needed that guy why did you kill him?!?! now i have to wait for him to respawn. Plus you can have great scripted encounters. Mayhem missions = drool god would i love to see something like that in a fantasy MMO.
    I am not too familiar with CoX because I really had no fun playing that game.  The instancing of missions creates a very uninvolved experience for me.  The more instancing I see in a game, the less I like it.  World of Warcraft placed instances as a PvP/Dungeon only aspect because single player content is just more...."real" when other players are also after it.  This does create some headaches, but I really don't enjoy scripting when no one else experiences it.
    well then thats YOUR issue, you want more complex quests you're going to have to get over it. I played Co/H/V for a few months and I never felt lilke i was uninvolved. if you don't instance it you will never get beyond the BS "kill this guy, then kill this guy and get his key to kill this guy". because as soon as you need to kill the last guy and get to him you can bet there will be another group racing to him and probably a chinese farmer or two waiting at the final guy when you get there./
    I don't get the whole "omg instance sucks" attitude maybe if when i logged in i got sent to a browser with different dungeons then i might feel detached. But in games like CoV/H and even EQ2 which has lots of instanced zone ... i never did.


    Customization - WOW SUCKS! just wanted to get that out of the way. As for performance, I was playing SWG and EQ2 on that same 1.6ghz PC with little to no problem. I would say use those two games especially SWG as models for the future.
    I know you hate WoW.  You've made several poor attempts at denouncing the game from a level 20 perspective.  Although World of Warcraft does have a more limited character creation screen, I think the games that offer more customization sort of....fail at other aspects.  SW:G Failed at every other part of an MMO after the NGE and the Jedi fiasco.  CoH feels like a multiple player town with a bunch of single player missions that are all the same.
    Underlined = completely irrelevant, you asked about customization solely not it plus other factors. if you don't like the answer, tough .... change the question. Also "failing" is a matter of your opinion, post NGE is crap i agree but again thats just my opinion. I don't think SWG failed especially Pre-nge, in fact i think it was one of the most innovative and entertaining games around.


    Rewards - I think companies should get away from uber loot as the ONLY reward. I had this idea a few days ago, what if instead of just loot you got advancement from quests. So for eample you go on some quest given by some NPC and when you complete it you have the choice of ...
    "I Will give you a vial of a magic remedy... " - that in essence gives you more HP ... permanently.

    "For this I show you how to wield your sword ... " - allows you to choose a combat ability.

    "I will send you to one of our most skilled prophets ... " - allowing you to become a better healer

    "I will grant you access to the kingdoms vaults .. " - allowing you to choose a weapon/piece of armor.

    and so on and so forth
    -cough-Diablo 2-cough-
    A lot of these kinds of rewards I can break down.
    1.  More HP forever -  Many loot rewards in Outland in World of Warcraft offer mucho Stamina.  These items will only be replaced by dungeon loot which will give you more hp again.
    2. Combat Abilities - In most MMORPGs leveling opens up new combat abilities.  You level by completing quests and killing mobs.  I would also like to point out that WARLOCKs and many other classes in World of Warcraft only get certain spells, mounts, and weapons for their class if they complete quests.
    3.  Healing Abilities -  Two fold here.  One, items as rewards with +healing.  Two, leveling to gain better heals/experience.
    4.  Vault -  Cheesy way of saying "Here is some armor." which is already in most games.
    again those are just examples, I don't get paid to come up with huge complex ideas so i'm throwing out simple ones so even WoW fans can understand it. If it was up to me, you would have many choices on ways to heal, wards, HoTs, as well as Eq2s reactive heals that would be choices. Different schools of magic fire, ice , earth as well as others .... all gain via quests. So like i said you can mix and match creating your own character instead of having to choose a predetermined class.


    just to state this outright even though i thought it would be obvious .... the "innovation" behind the system would not be the skills themselves, but how you gained them and the idea that you can mix and match and create a completely unique character.
    this way people can build thier own characters, so if i want to be the standard tank i would look for more quests that offer me "the magic remedy". if i wanted to be a healer, look for more quests to seek teaching of the "prophets". but also alow you to mix and match as you wish. Now obviously there has to be some sort of limit so that you don't become godlike, so maybe add a point system ala SWG. where as you have 250 points and everytime you gain a vial of HP potion and use it ... it takes 5 or so of those points away.
    I must bring something up here.  World of Warcraft, along with many other MMORPGs, allows for a lot of customization for their characters.  Not only do all classes have a set of spells/abilities, but all classes can also further customize using talents.  What you've just expressed is a desire to start out with a blank page character and add your own collection of skills until you become some hybrid of all skills you find appealing.  That becomes more and more of a single player game the more you become self-sustaining.  MULTIPLAYER games work because one player can't survive 100% of the time by themselves.  The game you are describing sounds like ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE.
    what are you talking about, WoW is the most solo friendly game around so therefore in WOW you can SURVIVE by yourself. And you are talking about boss content, even in SWG where you had total control over your character you could not survive solo 100% of the time ... so guess there goes that bullshit statement huh?


     



    1. not the same thing at all just because it can be done via stealth does not mean anything



    So, a quest that calls on stealth is more or less enjoyable than a quest that has an optional stealth component.



    2.     not the same thing at all just because it can be done via stealth does not mean anything



    This is just a flame, I feel.  The aspect of Zelda which makes it fun is that your character completes puzzle objectives to eventually achieve a boss encounter.  WoW's fun relies on strategic mob encounters and strategies that eventually lead to a boss encounter.  What I meant is that changing that would be stealing from what makes WoW what it is.  The cartoony graphics are also a part of the Warcraft design, and had nothing to do with what I was trying to express. 



    3a.      well then thats YOUR issue, you want more complex quests you're going to have to get over it. I played Co/H/V for a few months and I never felt lilke i was uninvolved. if you don't instance it you will never get beyond the BS "kill this guy, then kill this guy and get his key to kill this guy". because as soon as you need to kill the last guy and get to him you can bet there will be another group racing to him and probably a chinese farmer or two waiting at the final guy when you get there./



    Pretend you're a hunter (in real life).  There is a new hunting trend among other hunters.  This trend is to allow every hunter to enter a forest inside of a large warehouse.  In the building are a set number of deer, a few chickens and a rabbit.  You go in knowing there is no competition for the big game.



    The reason it doesn't feel real is because of the lack of the race.  Sure, I killed "A Large Buck", but who cares?
    3b. I don't get the whole "omg instance sucks" attitude maybe if when i logged in i got sent to a browser with different dungeons then i might feel detached. But in games like CoV/H and even EQ2 which has lots of instanced zone ... i never did.
    That's your call, I suppose.  In CoX I had trouble understanding why every bank had such horrible security over and over.
    4. Underlined = completely irrelevant, you asked about customization solely not it plus other factors. if you don't like the answer, tough .... change the question. Also "failing" is a matter of your opinion, post NGE is crap i agree but again thats just my opinion. I don't think SWG failed especially Pre-nge, in fact i think it was one of the most innovative and entertaining games around.
    If a company spends a lot of resources on a cool box, but totally fails to put a CD inside the box, it is the companies fault.  If a game starts out with a good system, fails to tweak it correctly, but has a great customization system...the company still fails.  I'm sorry if that appears to not have a link.


    5.  again those are just examples, I don't get paid to come up with huge complex ideas so i'm throwing out simple ones so even WoW fans can understand it. If it was up to me, you would have many choices on ways to heal, wards, HoTs, as well as Eq2s reactive heals that would be choices. Different schools of magic fire, ice , earth as well as others .... all gain via quests. So like i said you can mix and match creating your own character instead of having to choose a predetermined class.


    just to state this outright even though i thought it would be obvious .... the "innovation" behind the system would not be the skills themselves, but how you gained them and the idea that you can mix and match and create a completely unique character.
    Most MMOs rely on people being forced into roles.  Bascially, the triangle of Healer, DPS, and Tank.  Being able to choose whatever you wish implies that people could make their own roles in a game.  I feel like that would take a lot of interesting development.  A game like that almost certainly would lack a group/raid aspect that felt like team work.  But, that's just my opinion.

    Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde

  • AutemOxAutemOx Member Posts: 1,704

    I'd like to see a little more to do with our mounts, or really just horses, because I've never really understood why some mmorpgs insist on having a bunch of types of mounts...  But whatever.

    Anyways, one of the things I really want to see with mounts is dynamic spawning...  When you call your mount, they should spawn outside of your view range (or maybe just out of your cameras view) and walk up to where you are standing.  This is opposed to the pull-your-mount-out-of-your-pocket system that mmorpgs have now.  Yeah, and this would make it so they have to add an animation of your character mounting, which is something most mmorpgs also seem to avoid, which drives me nuts.  Anyways, the spawning could be done client side, so any other players standing near the one who calls their mount sees the mount spawn in a different spot, that way no player can actually see the mount spawning. 

    I'd like to see this with other NPCs as well, as I hate to see any type of NPC spawn on top of me, and in some cases it can lead to my characters death when it really shouldn't.

    I think a bit of customizing would be nice too concerning horses/mounts.  I know that in vanguard you will be able to choose armor for your horse and name your horse, which are both very cool.  I would prefer if we could choose the type of horse as well, since many mmorpgs have 1 look for 'the best horse', and of course the worst horse is always the poor pinto horse...  Which I think is the cutest of them all.    Since players will hopefully get somewhat attached to their horses, it would be nice if we didn't have to replace them for better horses-  Instead maybe we could 'train' our previous horses to be faster, which could cost gold if need be, just as buying new mounts would.

    I would really like to see some character in the mounts as well.  I would love to be able to choose if my horse is aggressive or not, or even better, if the horse learnt to be aggressive depending on the situations you put him in...  IE guildwars, where your pet becomes a damage dealer if he spends his time dealing damage during level up, and a tank if he spends his time taking damage during level ups.  Aggressive horses would attack when enemies are around, or at least defend themselves when attacked, and passive horses would run away from enemies...   Both of these have their warrants, as an aggressive horse could help you defeat enemies, while passive would keep your horse alive.

    Going on with my mount ideas, I would love to see some quests that have to do with the mounts.  They don't really have to be special-  Just quests, typical to whatever type of quests that game includes.

    I know I mentioned using traditional methods, ie money sinks, to train your horse to become faster, but I would really like to see different ways of aquiring horses than simply purchasing them.  Even if the mmorpg would like to use mounts as a money sink, hopefully they could do that through training the horse, and the actual aquisition of your horse would be something more heroic and suitable for a epic journey.  Perhaps liberating the horse through some sort of quest?  It doesn't even really have to be part of the quest, but maybe you come across the stables of some enemy NPC town and you steal them, or during an instance where the town is burning down you save them, ect.

    And of course, mounted combat would be nice, and would really bring horses into the games central game play.  Like the other things mentioned, mounted combat wouldn't really be necessary to a game that has some focus on mounts, just another addition.

    I know that in carpe diem horses level up with players, ect.  I was so excited when I heard about that game, because I've been wishing for a mmorpg that pays more attention to mounts for a while now...  Of course, it turned out to be another small scale Korean grind fest, but oh well.

    Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.

  • XApotheosisXXApotheosisX Member Posts: 277

    Originally posted by retrospectic



    1. not the same thing at all just because it can be done via stealth does not mean anything



    So, a quest that calls on stealth is more or less enjoyable than a quest that has an optional stealth component.

    most quest can be done via stealth, that doesn't make them stealth quests. With my assassin in EQ2 I stealthed around doing quests all the time. that doesn't mean that they are the same.



    2.     not the same thing at all just because it can be done via stealth does not mean anything



    This is just a flame, I feel.  The aspect of Zelda which makes it fun is that your character completes puzzle objectives to eventually achieve a boss encounter.  WoW's fun relies on strategic mob encounters and strategies that eventually lead to a boss encounter.  What I meant is that changing that would be stealing from what makes WoW what it is.  The cartoony graphics are also a part of the Warcraft design, and had nothing to do with what I was trying to express. 

    steaing from what WoW is and changing it will be a good idea.



    3a.      well then thats YOUR issue, you want more complex quests you're going to have to get over it. I played Co/H/V for a few months and I never felt lilke i was uninvolved. if you don't instance it you will never get beyond the BS "kill this guy, then kill this guy and get his key to kill this guy". because as soon as you need to kill the last guy and get to him you can bet there will be another group racing to him and probably a chinese farmer or two waiting at the final guy when you get there./



    Pretend you're a hunter (in real life).  There is a new hunting trend among other hunters.  This trend is to allow every hunter to enter a forest inside of a large warehouse.  In the building are a set number of deer, a few chickens and a rabbit.  You go in knowing there is no competition for the big game.

    it depends on what else is in the warehouse, and how they tailor made it to my group of hunters. Are we hardcore hunters where as they add traps that we have to figure out or else we die. Are we more beginner hunters just practicing so the terrain is easier. Are we elite hunters so instead of hunting deer they put specialized trained panthers plus traps and other dangers for us to test out our skills on and see if we survive.



    The reason it doesn't feel real is because of the lack of the race.  Sure, I killed "A Large Buck", but who cares?

    I CARE! what i don't care about is what other people think, i play MMO games for my enjoyment not what others think. So i am not the first on my server to beat a dragon. if my guild beats him eventually even 2 years after he has been out to me its a big deal.  thats because most developers are too lazy to think outside the box. instead they give you 1999 concepts of the Holy trinity when they should have moved past that already. UO doesn't have classes and its still out there. SWG before they WoWified it didn't have classes(well there were classes but you weren't forced into one or the other) and it was pretty popular (despite the bullshit you spew)

    3b. I don't get the whole "omg instance sucks" attitude maybe if when i logged in i got sent to a browser with different dungeons then i might feel detached. But in games like CoV/H and even EQ2 which has lots of instanced zone ... i never did.

    That's your call, I suppose.  In CoX I had trouble understanding why every bank had such horrible security over and over.

    you can pick apart every game, in WoW i just did the deadmines. why is it after i killed a few miners the whole camp didn't search for me and try to kill me? even after i killed a few elites? because its not scripted like that.

    4. Underlined = completely irrelevant, you asked about customization solely not it plus other factors. if you don't like the answer, tough .... change the question. Also "failing" is a matter of your opinion, post NGE is crap i agree but again thats just my opinion. I don't think SWG failed especially Pre-nge, in fact i think it was one of the most innovative and entertaining games around.

    If a company spends a lot of resources on a cool box, but totally fails to put a CD inside the box, it is the companies fault.  If a game starts out with a good system, fails to tweak it correctly, but has a great customization system...the company still fails.  I'm sorry if that appears to not have a link.

    it doesn't have a link, you were talking about customization solely ... not the rest of the game.

    5.  again those are just examples, I don't get paid to come up with huge complex ideas so i'm throwing out simple ones so even WoW fans can understand it. If it was up to me, you would have many choices on ways to heal, wards, HoTs, as well as Eq2s reactive heals that would be choices. Different schools of magic fire, ice , earth as well as others .... all gain via quests. So like i said you can mix and match creating your own character instead of having to choose a predetermined class.

     just to state this outright even though i thought it would be obvious .... the "innovation" behind the system would not be the skills themselves, but how you gained them and the idea that you can mix and match and create a completely unique character.

    Most MMOs rely on people being forced into roles.  Bascially, the triangle of Healer, DPS, and Tank.  Being able to choose whatever you wish implies that people could make their own roles in a game.  I feel like that would take a lot of interesting development.  A game like that almost certainly would lack a group/raid aspect that felt like team work.  But, that's just my opinion.

    I remember raiding all the time in SWG, Krayts and the DWB just to name two things my guild raided.

    it's easier to make the holy trinity and force people into basic roles instead of allowing them control over there character. unfortunately most devs take the easy way out.

     

  • retrospecticretrospectic Member UncommonPosts: 1,466
    I suppose we disagree on what fundamentally makes an MMO fun.  I have a difficult time expressing exactly why I find WoW enjoyable without stressing the same points you seem to find unbearable.  Sadly, if we continue I doubt it will be more than a flame war.  I wish your opinions didn't totally denounce some things without giving them a chance.  Namely, I think some aspects of the quest engine in WoW is perfectly suited for the MMORPG market.  But, I digress.

    Doktar - 70 Troll Priest - Perenolde

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