Lol, I was specifically refering to the areas where numerous people are competing for a finite number of spawns for kill X quests, when grouping simply lets everyone accomplish the quests much easier by cooperating rather than competing for spawn, it's logical and sensible and most people accept when it's pointed out to them, some don't read chat or are set on solo-ing only ever. I find that a little bizarre when it's to everyone's detriment including theirs. Solo-ing is much more prevalent in the MMO community today than the community of the past, because alot of recent MMO's have reinforced that grouping is a detriment and some people expect the same in VG.
I like that VG isn't that way, and get a little tired of people suggesting it should be changed to be the way all the other recent & upcoming MMO's are geared, if that makes me somehow insecure & needy in your eyes hey whatever floats your boat. I have little trouble finding or starting groups in general thanks & never have no matter what class or MMO I've been playing.
Yeah looks like it was a bad or moody day for you. My apologies. If I buy Vanguard and we crossed paths I'd group with you. Goodluck.
Now I was a big fan of everquest (played from 1999) and I would go back if SoE ever put in a good classic server, so don't think i hate "challenging games".
The problem I see with vanguard is that it ignores the needs of the people that actualy started playing this genere in their young age (I myself was 13 when I started playing EQ) but have since grown up and due to real life restrictions no longer have the time to get much fun out of a game that requires grouping and long distance travel. A lot of us LOVE grouping, but we realy arent able to play games where we have to spend one hour looking for a group, one hour running to the camp, and then 30 mins to recover our corpse should we actualy die. (nor spend large sums of coin summoning our corpse...because if you cannot play a lot, how are you going to have tons of extra coin?) Also, we dont have the free hours neccessary to look around and find the handful of soloable camps. (and one single pull mob in between 20 different group pull sets of NPCs isnt exactly easly accessable) And please, don't give the "go play single player games if you want to solo" crap excuse. Few people WANT to solo, it's just impossible to get much grouping done in a 2 hour period. Now on the weekends, we might have a decent chunk of time in which grouping is practical, but I'd also like to be able to achive something measurable during a 2 hour play session on a work day....not crafting....not diplomacy. I want to kill something squishy, and be able to get a decent amount of experience from doing so (not asking for lvl 50, dragon loot, and glowy_uber_weapon01 in short order)
MMOs need to start catering to working adults as well as kids if they want to have a real chance of success.
There are plenty of MMOs out there that are tailored to your needs. Why does every single one have to be geared towards the casual gamer? I'm not a casual gamer, I don't live in my parents basement, I am independantly wealthy and have chosen to spend most of my time gaming. SWG was ruined by your particular point of view. You are entitled to it, but personally I find it very selfish. There are plenty of MMOs for casual gamers with more on the way. Let us have our ONE please.
what made swg cool was you could solo most the stuff. who the hell wanted to group cept to pull missions. keep the groups for the troll and elf garbage thx
I only went to 16, I grinded a bit but if I had gone to different zones for quests I would have never NOT been on a quest. Hell find a place with missives, you can do em multiple times.
Think what people fail to realize is that it doesnt have to be extreme in one direction or the other. A game where grouping gives better rewards/exp over soloing, while soloing is still productive is dumbed down somehow? Says who? People keep listing examples that dont match this system, you just list extremes where the entire game was made easier overall.
Gonodil, you just said pretty much what Vanguard is - Soloing is perfectly a viable option, but you won't level as fast or get quite as great loot as you would from grouping. It caters to both types quite well I think.
Now I was a big fan of everquest (played from 1999) and I would go back if SoE ever put in a good classic server, so don't think i hate "challenging games".
The problem I see with vanguard is that it ignores the needs of the people that actualy started playing this genere in their young age (I myself was 13 when I started playing EQ) but have since grown up and due to real life restrictions no longer have the time to get much fun out of a game that requires grouping and long distance travel. A lot of us LOVE grouping, but we realy arent able to play games where we have to spend one hour looking for a group, one hour running to the camp, and then 30 mins to recover our corpse should we actualy die. (nor spend large sums of coin summoning our corpse...because if you cannot play a lot, how are you going to have tons of extra coin?) Also, we dont have the free hours neccessary to look around and find the handful of soloable camps. (and one single pull mob in between 20 different group pull sets of NPCs isnt exactly easly accessable) And please, don't give the "go play single player games if you want to solo" crap excuse. Few people WANT to solo, it's just impossible to get much grouping done in a 2 hour period. Now on the weekends, we might have a decent chunk of time in which grouping is practical, but I'd also like to be able to achive something measurable during a 2 hour play session on a work day....not crafting....not diplomacy. I want to kill something squishy, and be able to get a decent amount of experience from doing so (not asking for lvl 50, dragon loot, and glowy_uber_weapon01 in short order)
MMOs need to start catering to working adults as well as kids if they want to have a real chance of success.
Its possible someone already said this (I just skimmed through the five pages) but EQ did make classic (progression) servers. Now theyre at PoP though so you kinda missed out
As for the whole solo issue, I totally understand... everyone likes to solo with limited time, but the reality is an MMO will never have fun soloing. Its going to be repetitive, same buttons, same mobs excetera. The truth is that single player games are designed for well... one person playing. But two hours is a sufficient amount of time to group, especially in a new game like Vanguard with a large active player base. If not, perhaps you should play Oblivion (random example) on weekdays and your mmo on weekends
I am a "casual" gamer, in regards to having limited play time, but would not regard myself as casual. Why?
Because I am also a mature player; started playing rpgs in the late 70s (AD&D) and CRPGs on the Amiga and PC ever since, until my first mmorpg with EQ back in 2001. I play to unwind, have fun, and, within a game context, be challenged.
However, with limited play time I often solo, or duo. So why not play a single playER game, such as Oblivion? Such games lack depth, and the gradual evolution that takes place as the devs add patches and new content, or even revamps and live events. They ALSO lack the social interaction of online games, trading, chatting to guildies, meeting players at random; when you aquire a decent new item, who do you tell, to show off, the cat? MMORPGs are more than just games, they are persistent, online, virtual, worlds. And some game worlds even evolve visually, like Horizons where player cities and communities were gradually constructed.
So why not play any one of the myriad of "solo" mmorpgs out there? Most are too much of a grind. Those with decent content are way too easy. WoW plays like a tutorial, virtually all the way through, EQ2 is a little more complex but SOE continues to "improve" it by making it easier, less challenging, less complex.
Vanguard offers depth, challenge, a seemless world, greater variety and several truly fresh ideas not already in games I've played. As a crafter I might actually be one, not a factory worker as in EQ2 grinding vendor junk to level. And no game I've heard of offers the diplomacy sphere. Buildable, sailable boats, freedom of movement, and content only reachable with them. Owning your own, non instanced house. Flying mounts. The list goes on.
If soloing is impossible I'll give it a miss, but from what I've seen that's not the case. I'll solo, when time is short, and join a decent, casual, guild to facillitate better grouping. I neither expect, not desire, to burn through the levels at lightning pace, I want to explore the world slowly, enjoy it's rich detail, prize open it's mysteries. I don't expect to ALWAYS have the best gear, for my level, nor do I want to, I'll the leave epeen-saber-rattling to those that consider it important.
No modern mmo should cater PURELY to one playstyle (that doesn't make sound finacial sense) but if one chooses to specialise, so be it. Sigil never claimed Vanguard would be solo-friendly, only possible. WoW however, lied to it's playerbase, gave you way too much
solo content up to max level, then NONE, except grinding. SOE stated that EQ2 would be VERY soloable (in development FAQs) but failed to deliver at launch, claimed that group content was their vision, then reversed that trend much later after being mauled by WoWs ridiculously high number of sales.
Vanguard may not be the game for me, but at least I was never told otherwise, only to be mislead by slick advertising.
I will never understand why someone would want to play a MMO and not group.... if you want to play by yourself.... Baldurs Gate, NWN is just that ... a MMO with no social interacting...
I will never understand why someone would want to play a MMO and not group.... if you want to play by yourself.... Baldurs Gate, NWN is just that ... a MMO with no social interacting...
I tried that. Got very boring after a couple of days. Felt like it had no purpose since I would just reload a savegame every time I got killed or did something wrong. No people to talk to either.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Not everything in an MMO needs to be a community effort. I can go and kill things on my own and then come back and haggle with people to sell my loot. Playing solo doesn't mean that you want to be alone in a world. You may just want to be a lone adventurer. Plenty of fictional fantasy heroes fit that mold which is what inspires many to play these games.
I plan on playing with two of my buddies and my brother so I don't intend to solo this game. Giving people viable options is not bad. The argument that those who wish to adventure alone in an MMO should play single players games is tired, old, and not even a very good argument. I may want to kill things alone most of the time - doesn't mean I may not want to group with someone, interact with people I find in the dungeon (team up for a specific kill) or interact on the sellingcrafting end.
Some people don't need other people all the time - thanks.
Btw, if you want decent games made, stop with the "well, it can only be a hardcore grinder or a overly simplified chat room" crap....these companies arent some independent developers working with ultra limited resources, these are major studios with giant budgets, learn to expect and demand more from them.
You really struck the nail on the head here (or so they say...). I, for one, am also tired of software companies releasing beta quality products with the expectation that we'd understand what it's like for them. I do understand, but what they need to understand is that they're running a business, and they're expected to do everything possible to make sure their product works properly. Anything less is unacceptable.
I'm not necessarily picking on VG here. Unfortunately, ALL the MMORPGs I've known of suffer from the same mentality. The only MMORPG I know of that was released in a state where you can say it's (almost) a finished product is WoW. I'm not saying WoW is a good or revolutionary game, cause it's not. All I'm saying is that WoW was released in an almost finished state. The only big problem at release was some missing features, and one remaining technical issue, which was the massive performance drop in Ironforge/Orgrimmar, due to too many players on the screen. Otherwise, from a technical (and design) point of view, the game was pretty much polished.
Compare that to EQ1, which for YEARS, didn't have a normal looking interface, unless you ran in 640 x 480 mode. And while we're here, I might as well pick on VG a little. I love where this game is going, but there are things that really need to be done to make the game at least look like it's ready for release, such as creating a new map. The current map is just ugly, useless, and extremely pixelated. The interface itself looks pretty good, but it's still kind of clunky. It doesn't work as smoothly as it could yet, some features, you have to dig too deep for, and the diplomacy interface was obviously put in at the last minute, and will hopefully be fixed soon. Some people might say this is just window dressing, but I believe presentation is important in making a product look like it's finished, even if the product inside isn't quite finished yet.
Anyway, I could go on about this, but the previous poster made the point quite clear. We should expect and demand professionally done products from the companies that make them, and MMORPGs are NOT exempt from this rule.
Comments
Spiritglow Good luck to you too!
There are plenty of MMOs out there that are tailored to your needs. Why does every single one have to be geared towards the casual gamer? I'm not a casual gamer, I don't live in my parents basement, I am independantly wealthy and have chosen to spend most of my time gaming. SWG was ruined by your particular point of view. You are entitled to it, but personally I find it very selfish. There are plenty of MMOs for casual gamers with more on the way. Let us have our ONE please.
what made swg cool was you could solo most the stuff. who the hell wanted to group cept to pull missions. keep the groups for the troll and elf garbage thxIts possible someone already said this (I just skimmed through the five pages) but EQ did make classic (progression) servers. Now theyre at PoP though so you kinda missed out
As for the whole solo issue, I totally understand... everyone likes to solo with limited time, but the reality is an MMO will never have fun soloing. Its going to be repetitive, same buttons, same mobs excetera. The truth is that single player games are designed for well... one person playing. But two hours is a sufficient amount of time to group, especially in a new game like Vanguard with a large active player base. If not, perhaps you should play Oblivion (random example) on weekdays and your mmo on weekends
Because I am also a mature player; started playing rpgs in the late 70s (AD&D) and CRPGs on the Amiga and PC ever since, until my first mmorpg with EQ back in 2001. I play to unwind, have fun, and, within a game context, be challenged.
However, with limited play time I often solo, or duo. So why not play a single playER game, such as Oblivion? Such games lack depth, and the gradual evolution that takes place as the devs add patches and new content, or even revamps and live events. They ALSO lack the social interaction of online games, trading, chatting to guildies, meeting players at random; when you aquire a decent new item, who do you tell, to show off, the cat? MMORPGs are more than just games, they are persistent, online, virtual, worlds. And some game worlds even evolve visually, like Horizons where player cities and communities were gradually constructed.
So why not play any one of the myriad of "solo" mmorpgs out there? Most are too much of a grind. Those with decent content are way too easy. WoW plays like a tutorial, virtually all the way through, EQ2 is a little more complex but SOE continues to "improve" it by making it easier, less challenging, less complex.
Vanguard offers depth, challenge, a seemless world, greater variety and several truly fresh ideas not already in games I've played. As a crafter I might actually be one, not a factory worker as in EQ2 grinding vendor junk to level. And no game I've heard of offers the diplomacy sphere. Buildable, sailable boats, freedom of movement, and content only reachable with them. Owning your own, non instanced house. Flying mounts. The list goes on.
If soloing is impossible I'll give it a miss, but from what I've seen that's not the case. I'll solo, when time is short, and join a decent, casual, guild to facillitate better grouping. I neither expect, not desire, to burn through the levels at lightning pace, I want to explore the world slowly, enjoy it's rich detail, prize open it's mysteries. I don't expect to ALWAYS have the best gear, for my level, nor do I want to, I'll the leave epeen-saber-rattling to those that consider it important.
No modern mmo should cater PURELY to one playstyle (that doesn't make sound finacial sense) but if one chooses to specialise, so be it. Sigil never claimed Vanguard would be solo-friendly, only possible. WoW however, lied to it's playerbase, gave you way too much
solo content up to max level, then NONE, except grinding. SOE stated that EQ2 would be VERY soloable (in development FAQs) but failed to deliver at launch, claimed that group content was their vision, then reversed that trend much later after being mauled by WoWs ridiculously high number of sales.
Vanguard may not be the game for me, but at least I was never told otherwise, only to be mislead by slick advertising.
I tried that. Got very boring after a couple of days. Felt like it had no purpose since I would just reload a savegame every time I got killed or did something wrong. No people to talk to either.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Not everything in an MMO needs to be a community effort. I can go and kill things on my own and then come back and haggle with people to sell my loot. Playing solo doesn't mean that you want to be alone in a world. You may just want to be a lone adventurer. Plenty of fictional fantasy heroes fit that mold which is what inspires many to play these games.
I plan on playing with two of my buddies and my brother so I don't intend to solo this game. Giving people viable options is not bad. The argument that those who wish to adventure alone in an MMO should play single players games is tired, old, and not even a very good argument. I may want to kill things alone most of the time - doesn't mean I may not want to group with someone, interact with people I find in the dungeon (team up for a specific kill) or interact on the sellingcrafting end.
Some people don't need other people all the time - thanks.
I'm not necessarily picking on VG here. Unfortunately, ALL the MMORPGs I've known of suffer from the same mentality. The only MMORPG I know of that was released in a state where you can say it's (almost) a finished product is WoW. I'm not saying WoW is a good or revolutionary game, cause it's not. All I'm saying is that WoW was released in an almost finished state. The only big problem at release was some missing features, and one remaining technical issue, which was the massive performance drop in Ironforge/Orgrimmar, due to too many players on the screen. Otherwise, from a technical (and design) point of view, the game was pretty much polished.
Compare that to EQ1, which for YEARS, didn't have a normal looking interface, unless you ran in 640 x 480 mode. And while we're here, I might as well pick on VG a little. I love where this game is going, but there are things that really need to be done to make the game at least look like it's ready for release, such as creating a new map. The current map is just ugly, useless, and extremely pixelated. The interface itself looks pretty good, but it's still kind of clunky. It doesn't work as smoothly as it could yet, some features, you have to dig too deep for, and the diplomacy interface was obviously put in at the last minute, and will hopefully be fixed soon. Some people might say this is just window dressing, but I believe presentation is important in making a product look like it's finished, even if the product inside isn't quite finished yet.
Anyway, I could go on about this, but the previous poster made the point quite clear. We should expect and demand professionally done products from the companies that make them, and MMORPGs are NOT exempt from this rule.