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Did BC just pooped on the heads of raiders ?

RattrapRattrap Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,599

Hi people.

I am not a raider, actually i never gotten higher than lvl 40 in WOW

But from what i hear - even the ordinary gear in BC is better than raid equipment in WOW

I just wonder how people thaty raided like crazy to get this raid equipment feel about this ?

To me it sounds like equivalent of SWG NGE.

Completely screwing time investment of players that raided for endless hours...

"Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas

Comments

  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    Depends on your raid mentality.



    If people hated raiding and were only doing it to get the loot, I'm pretty sure they will feel disappointed.



    If people loved raiding, then gear are only tools, tools you need to push, to progress, nothing more. We needed MC gear to progress (effectively) in BWL. We needed BWL to start Naxxramas. We needed Naxxramas gear to delve deep into that instance. And we will need the expansion gear to tackle with the expansion content.



    So no, I'm not sad or angry towards the changes. I'm actually looking forward to the new challenges.
  • Originally posted by Rattrap


    Hi people.
    I am not a raider, actually i never gotten higher than lvl 40 in WOW
    But from what i hear - even the ordinary gear in BC is better than raid equipment in WOW
    I just wonder how people thaty raided like crazy to get this raid equipment feel about this ?

    To me it sounds like equivalent of SWG NGE.
    Completely screwing time investment of players that raided for endless hours...
    It is about having fun. If they had fun raiding then it was worth it. If it wasnt fun they are playing for the wrong reason.



    Raiding is by far the worst thing about WOW.
  • RattrapRattrap Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,599

    Yes , I agree

    Raiding few times is fun. But forced raids , even when you mentaly puked even when thinking of another raid...that is just sick.

    I just think that people "forced" to raid by their guilds feel bit "screwed" right now...

    "Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas

  • End_of_a_eraEnd_of_a_era Member Posts: 527
    Boo hoo tbh, you can't have the best gear forever. It's a game anyways, you want new stuff to do tbh and TBC gave you that.

    imageimage

  • BaldhorBaldhor Member Posts: 85
    peoples knew about the new level cap since a very long time. Having new gear that pwn previous top-gear was expected
  • RattrapRattrap Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,599
    Originally posted by Baldhor

    peoples knew about the new level cap since a very long time. Having new gear that pwn previous top-gear was expected

     

    Hmm, i see...

    Well , glad that everyone is happy

    "Before this battle is over all the world will know that few...stood against many." - King Leonidas

  • herculeshercules Member UncommonPosts: 4,923

    Well i came back a week prior to TBC and my guild which is a raiding guild was nice enough to take me back.I guess part of it has to do with this character been a druid and druid seems to be the new FoTM.

    Anyhow from what i seen yes a lot of the tier 2 stuff gets replaced by normal instance and some quest items by level 63-65.

    In my case i only had tier 1s which were nearly all replaced by level 63.

    But lets face it whenever the level cap is raised in a mmorpg the old items become obsolete because they were meant for the previous level cap which was 60.

    So in essence this is the common reality of mmorpg.I think why ppl take it so hard is simply because they have little mmorpg experience as most WoW players are first timers.

    But again people forget that there is a new set of tier 6 to aim for which again would place the raiders on a higher scope.I personally have no wish to raid more then once a week now but i see in 3-4 months the same as pre-TBC happening.

  • xrebelxrebel Member Posts: 133
    (keep in mind I'm not even playing anymore)



    the funny thing to me is... level 50 epics were usually better/on par with lvl 60 greens before TBC, now I have my girlfriend replacing her tier 2 with level 63 greens (some of it anyway)... is Blizz really making the item gap between well geared players LARGER than it was before? It really seems this way (not a flame... I'm asking).



    I had a hard time in pvp geared with blues on one char against tier 2's... is the average casual in blues going to now have even less of a chance vs a tier 4-5?



    Or perhaps just the initial jump is big... and lvl 63 greens are about equal to level 70 greens?



    I really need a skill based game where gear is just a way to supplement your specific build... :)





    edit: I typed "you're" instead of "your" ahhh that annoys me even when I do it!

    Retired from WoW
    Rebellion - 60 Warlock || Kalaa - 60 Warrior
    Littlerebel - 60 Hunter || Albie - 60 Shaman
    Played: Erm, a lot more.

  • xrebelxrebel Member Posts: 133
    Originally posted by Recant

    Originally posted by xrebel

    (keep in mind I'm not even playing anymore)



    the funny thing to me is... level 50 epics were usually better/on par with lvl 60 greens before TBC, now I have my girlfriend replacing her tier 2 with level 63 greens (some of it anyway)... is Blizz really making the item gap between well geared players LARGER than it was before? It really seems this way (not a flame... I'm asking).



    I had a hard time in pvp geared with blues on one char against tier 2's... is the average casual in blues going to now have even less of a chance vs a tier 4-5?



    Or perhaps just the initial jump is big... and lvl 63 greens are about equal to level 70 greens?



    I really need a skill based game where gear is just a way to supplement your specific build... :)





    edit: I typed "you're" instead of "your" ahhh that annoys me even when I do it!
    Huh. Are you drunk? :P A lot of what you say makes no sense... Girlfriend replacing T2 gear with 60-70 greens, meaning the gear-gap becomes larger.. how do you figure that out - this benefits the casual player levelling past 60.



    And 63 greens equal to 70 greens?



    Huh? :P Sorry I'll try to clear it up, please keep in mind posts made before 2 cups of coffee are null and void in any debate. :)



    What I'm trying to ask is if the gear gap between well geared players and average players is becoming more pronounced?



    I'll try another example.... say you have a level 60 hunter wearing their dungeon set facing off a level 60 hunter wearing tier 2.... Well even if the dungeon set player is an excellent player, and the tier 2 is average, I would say the dungeon set player only has a 50% change or less of winning the encounter.



    Now in TBC, if you take the same comparison... a 70 in blues vs a 70 in tier 5... it seems the gear gap has increased to the point where the blue player will have even less of a chance of winning a "fair" encounter.



    ahhh, I probably still don't make sense, I give up



    moreeee coffeeeeeeeee

    Retired from WoW
    Rebellion - 60 Warlock || Kalaa - 60 Warrior
    Littlerebel - 60 Hunter || Albie - 60 Shaman
    Played: Erm, a lot more.

  • XasapisXasapis Member RarePosts: 6,337
    There are two fundamental changes regarding PvP on the original WoW and the expansion.



    1.

    In the original WoW you could purchase PvP gear either by playing and winning enough battlegrounds to raise your reputation with the respective faction. You also needed to devote insane amount of time per day for months in order to become Grand Marshal and have access to the best PvP armor and weapons (I know armor is of a lower rank but you need GM to get them both).

    What does this mean? Basically that you had zero time to raid if you wanted to be competitive with the rest of the people in your faction.



    Expansion changed that. Now every time you play and you and your team is successful, you gain honour. Honour is a sort of currency for every PvP reward. So basically you can buy both the old GM sets and the new gladiator ones. The big difference with the previous system is that the new one is not diminishing. If you stopped playing for a day, you were losing rank, because the rest of the people in your faction were playing and you were not. Now however, honour is stored, not lost. You can stop and resume PvP at your leasure and at the pace you choose without losing your job and killing your social life.



    Whether in the new system the best PvP set worth too much or too little honour is a topic for another discussion.



    2.

    In WoW, both PvP hungry and PvE enthouciasts were sharing the same game space. In the early days (pre and after MC was introducced), PvP gear were the best gear in the game with a big difference. When BWL was introduced, there was an equalisation between PvP and raid gear. Once Naxxramas was introduced, the scale tipped heavily towards raid gear.



    Of course, both Grand Marshal and Naxxramas gear were hard to acquire for different reasons. So, not many people were running around with either.



    The expansion brought the best PvP gear back on top. They are better than anything you can find in any instance introduced in the expansion. They are also easier accessible than before (previous system really made people hate the game). Whether this remains true after X amounts of months when a new raid instance is introduced or a new expansion comes out, remains to be seen.



    As a raider, I'm happy for PvPers. I don't feel there is a need for competition. Overall PvP gear on a personal level were harder to get compared to raid gear with the old system. Now things are easier on the PvP front (in theory at least). At least people won't burn out now and quit the game after they achieve GM.
  • xrebelxrebel Member Posts: 133
    So in a way you answered my question... the gear discrepency (how the heck do you spell that word) may be larger, but it seems "easier" in a way to get better gear... Am I reading you right?



    That's a decent idea actually. It doesnt really matter if a blue gets slaughtered by a tier 5 when the blue player can upgrade to be competitive with a modest amount of work.

    Retired from WoW
    Rebellion - 60 Warlock || Kalaa - 60 Warrior
    Littlerebel - 60 Hunter || Albie - 60 Shaman
    Played: Erm, a lot more.

  • iddmitriiddmitri Member UncommonPosts: 671
    All raiders stopped raiding around 2-3months before TBC release. I remember many raiders were talking something like "why raid and waste time when we can relax/farm gold until TBC and then raid naxxramas easy level 70 instances" and "naxx ftl". I think last 4 months of WoW most people pvped or didnt play at all.



    I read someone wrote that people raid for fun but this is not absolutely right, most WoW raiders are lootwhores/dkpwhores that just can not stop raiding. Some raid for fun usually friends of hardcore players because in WoW it is easy to find hardcore which will raid all the time and replace the person that logs in to play for fun. Blizzard are excellent! They made 5 man instances for people that cant play all the time, in another words WoW good for both type of players.



    I want to add that true players that are having fun from WoW usualy never been in MC/BWL/AQ40/NAXX or any other 40(now 25) man instances and the rest are wow addicts which need friend's or parent's help or they are lost.
  • HrothmundHrothmund Member Posts: 1,061
    Originally posted by dmitri84

    All raiders stopped raiding around 2-3months before TBC release. I remember many raiders were talking something like "why raid and waste time when we can relax/farm gold until TBC and then raid naxxramas easy level 70 instances" and "naxx ftl". I think last 4 months of WoW most people pvped or didnt play at all.



    I read someone wrote that people raid for fun but this is not absolutely right, most WoW raiders are lootwhores/dkpwhores that just can not stop raiding. Some raid for fun usually friends of hardcore players because in WoW it is easy to find hardcore which will raid all the time and replace the person that logs in to play for fun. Blizzard are excellent! They made 5 man instances for people that cant play all the time, in another words WoW good for both type of players.



    I want to add that true players that are having fun from WoW usualy never been in MC/BWL/AQ40/NAXX or any other 40(now 25) man instances and the rest are wow addicts which need friend's or parent's help or they are lost.
    I disagree, I raided Naxx with an average of around 2hours played per day. I was having fun, except for the constant wipes and when we finally got Kel.. that was great. Now I'm eagerly looking towards raiding in TBC, there'll be some fun times ahead for sure.
  • KnightblastKnightblast Member UncommonPosts: 1,787
    Originally posted by dmitri84

    All raiders stopped raiding around 2-3months before TBC release. I remember many raiders were talking something like "why raid and waste time when we can relax/farm gold until TBC and then raid naxxramas easy level 70 instances" and "naxx ftl". I think last 4 months of WoW most people pvped or didnt play at all.



    I read someone wrote that people raid for fun but this is not absolutely right, most WoW raiders are lootwhores/dkpwhores that just can not stop raiding. Some raid for fun usually friends of hardcore players because in WoW it is easy to find hardcore which will raid all the time and replace the person that logs in to play for fun. Blizzard are excellent! They made 5 man instances for people that cant play all the time, in another words WoW good for both type of players.



    I want to add that true players that are having fun from WoW usualy never been in MC/BWL/AQ40/NAXX or any other 40(now 25) man instances and the rest are wow addicts which need friend's or parent's help or they are lost.
    I don't agree with this.  I've known many raiders who are not lootwh0res or dkpwh0res --- some of them are, but  not all of them.  And there are many casual players who have been to MC, and some even to BWL. 



    I think the nice thing about WoW is that it caters to both casual and hardcore players, really.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979
    Originally posted by xrebel

    (keep in mind I'm not even playing anymore)



    the funny thing to me is... level 50 epics were usually better/on par with lvl 60 greens before TBC, now I have my girlfriend replacing her tier 2 with level 63 greens (some of it anyway)... is Blizz really making the item gap between well geared players LARGER than it was before? It really seems this way (not a flame... I'm asking).



    I had a hard time in pvp geared with blues on one char against tier 2's... is the average casual in blues going to now have even less of a chance vs a tier 4-5?



    Or perhaps just the initial jump is big... and lvl 63 greens are about equal to level 70 greens?



    I really need a skill based game where gear is just a way to supplement your specific build... :)





    edit: I typed "you're" instead of "your" ahhh that annoys me even when I do it!



    actually, if you look at the tier 4 and 5 gear, it's available for all to see in Shattrah city, it's not THAT much better then any of the blues/greens I've seen out of TBC so far.... I have a green chestplate (plate) that gives something like 1000 armor, 40 stamina, 20-some stength. tier 4/5 is like 1200 armor, 40 stam, 20-some stength, and 20-some agility.... but it also has sockets for gems, and you get set bonuses for having more pieces.

    and, you get to choose between two sets of tier 4 and two sets of tier 5..... for instance, for warrior, there is a "tanking" set and a pve/pvp set for both tiers... the tier 4 pve set focuses more on a fury build and the tier 5 set focuses more and an arms build.

    so it is gear made to supplement your specific build.... upgradable with whatever gems/enchants you want.  so it gives you more skills and abilities but just about the same in terms of raw statistics

  • NadrilNadril Member Posts: 1,276
    Originally posted by Rattrap


    Hi people.
    I am not a raider, actually i never gotten higher than lvl 40 in WOW
    But from what i hear - even the ordinary gear in BC is better than raid equipment in WOW
    I just wonder how people thaty raided like crazy to get this raid equipment feel about this ?

    To me it sounds like equivalent of SWG NGE.
    Completely screwing time investment of players that raided for endless hours...


    The green and blues from BC are better than the raided gear pre-TBC, thats true. However once everyone hits 70 and starts raiding again the raided gear will be better than those greens.



    It's just kind of a different cycle now.



    btw, itemsation in TBC = excelent!
  • HubabubaHubabuba Member Posts: 229
    Originally posted by Rattrap


    Hi people.
    I am not a raider, actually i never gotten higher than lvl 40 in WOW
    But from what i hear - even the ordinary gear in BC is better than raid equipment in WOW
    I just wonder how people thaty raided like crazy to get this raid equipment feel about this ?

    To me it sounds like equivalent of SWG NGE.
    Completely screwing time investment of players that raided for endless hours...

    Who gets upset about loot?  Besides loot whores I mean, I'm sure they are furious, but who cares they are just loot whores.  With any luck maybe the expansion will make some of the loot whores quit.

  • narvanarva Member Posts: 37
    Bliz had no choice but to make the level 60+ greens close or on par with tier 1 and tier 2 epics. This disapointed some but to those players ask yourself what would have happen if they didnt. How would the majority of WOWs playerbase who are not decked out in raid epics manage to do anything if the outlands content was balanced with tier I, II and III in mind. The gear gap is getting smaller during the leveling up phase, once at level 70 it will widen again. How much? Probably enough to make the raiders happy and the message to the "casual" players will be Just wait for the next expansion and things will equal out again. Rinse and repeat.
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