Testing Weekend - Join us!

GaileGray · January 2007

This weekend, Guild Wars players have an unprecedented opportunity to test potential changes to Guild Wars in the form of skill balances and changes to the Heroes' Ascent area.

We hope you'll post your thoughts, so that we can glean player reaction to both the skills and the area. After the weekend, the changes will be rolled back out and the designers will spend a week or two assessing input, analyzing observations, and then deciding on a final list of changes to roll into the game on a permanent basis.

So, come on and play a critical role in Guild Wars. The event runs through Sunday night, 11:59 p.m. Pacific Time.

Oh, and if you're wondering, the best feedback possible is brief individual input. For instance:

Skill Name:

Impression of change:

Suggestions:

Heroes' Ascent Element (like a map name, gameplay mechanic):

Impression of change:

Suggestions:

Thanks a lot, guys!

Killik · January 2007

Is A-net ever going to do something about the pvp leecher problem? or r u ppl too bissy with nerfing stuff?

Serling · January 2007

Gaile...

Appreciate the work you guys do on such a great product, but could you please find out when some of Nightfall's really glaring bugs are going to be fixed and report back to us?

1. Still unable to progress to Spearmarshal title once you reach Rank 8 (7500 Sunspear points). Scouts and priests stop offering bounties once you reach Rank 8.

2. Could you all please look into bringing Lightbringer progression in line with Sunspear progression? The idea that you can only get 2 measley points per monster kill in Realm of Torment is, quite frankly, lame, especially when you can get 7 Sunspear points per kill in Vabbi (until you reach 7500, that is).

3. Portal bug. Trying to go through a portal intermittently causes program to drop connection instantly. Happened to me half a dozen times in one hour the other day.

4. Razah is NOT enough reward for trying to grind through the insanely difficult Mallyx missions. He should be available at the end of the story-based missions, like every other hero. If it weren't for the ridiculously easy chest run in Stygian Veil, many people - myself included - would simply have no reason to be there. DoA is a PiTA. Please tell your bosses that grinding DOES NOT equal fun.

5. Will we ever get a "world map" of Realm of Torment?

6. How 'bout adding 7 heroes to DoA so that those professions finding it nearly impossible to get on a team can use a full team of their heroes? (Speaking here specifically of Paragons and Assassins). Only one thing worse than grinding and that's being ignored or (worse still) being kicked from a team because you're not a nuker, tank or monk. DoA for EVERY profession!

7. After this - the second of two consecutive nerfs to Motivation Paragons (no wonder nobody wants them in DoA), can we finally say that Motivation Paragons are "balanced", or are these the Regen Scrappers of Guild Wars? (Sorry, a City of Heroes reference).

8. Please explain the rationale for putting Bloodsong in Channeling rather than leaving it in Communing. This amounts to a pretty significant nerf to spirit-bombing Rits, who didn't have a lot going for them in the first place. Do you guys know how quickly spirits like Shelter, Union, and Pain die in high level zones? Having to split APs between three attributes doesn't make a Rit better: it makes them worse. If this change becomes permanent, you've almost guaranteed the death (or at least dearth) of spirit-bomber summoning Rits. Restoration will be the only way to go if you want to get on a team, because it will be the only attribute left in which a Rit can truly specialize.

That's all for now. More later as I think of it.

Thanks for your consideration.

JelloB2000 · January 2007

Originally posted by Serling
Gaile...(...)

And there goes Gaile to another forum because some people ignore the purpose of thread.
#1-6 already discussed and/or bug-reported.

#7-8 Its a temporary change for this weekend, (these 2 is what the thread is about).(I dont think Gaile actually plays CoH so any reference will be lost).

For bug reports & suggestions use any of the major GW-fansites.

Serling · January 2007

"And there goes Gaile to another forum because some people ignore the purpose of thread."

OTOH, there is this direct quote from Gaile:

"We hope you'll post your thoughts..."

Don't visit the "major fansites" because - quite frankly - find them pretty useless (except guildwiki, of course).

Posted my thoughts here. If you don't like it, please move along.

Akaraxle · January 2007

Serling, I can reply on points 7 and 8. I have no idea why Paragons got nerfed again; maybe because of tombs, for they got hit pretty hard when "Incoming!" and Energizing Finale got nerfed, but they were already disappearing in GvG. On Bloodsong, I think the reason is still PvP based: Pain/Bloodsong rits can be expecially lame in RA and most of all HvH, where one just needs to sit down and spam spirits. Attribute spreading is not a bad thing, if it'll prevent that kind of skill-less practice.

VGJustice · January 2007

Ok, my 2 cents on some of the skills I've seen changed:

Ritualist: I noticed that a good number of skills were changed so that you could cast them more often. The specific ones that effected me were Spirit Rift, Cruel Was Daoshen, and Chained Strike. I found that a little odd, but much appreciated. I do worry how that would effect a Rit primary, since my experience with these skills with with an Elementalist primary.

Rampage as One: This one was a source of much ranting and hair pulling for me. I had captured the skill on Thursday the 18th, built a suitable build around it, and had that crushed badly the following day. However, I have found a way to make the skill work more or less just as well as before, so I can deal with that change. My only problem is that due to the refresh rate it needs if a player wants to keep it up, it can get VERY expensive. Not like it wasn't before, but now we have to cast it twice as often. We poor melee Rangers have had it tough in the past (the Expertise change made using Warrior stances too costly in many cases), but this change isn't nearly as devestating as I initially thought it was or as powerful as the Exptertise change.

I still need to test out the change on Sharpen Daggers, which is one of the few other skills that I may use. And my poor Assasssin may have seen his last days of use if it's changed the way I think it's changed.

Serling · January 2007

"Attribute spreading is not a bad thing, if it'll prevent that kind of skill-less practice."

There are some professions that actually thrive with this kind of approach: Rangers, Warriors, and Paragons, to name three. But you wouldn't dream of splitting a Monk's APs three ways. The only thing you'll get is a really weak healer, protector or smiter, and god knows support is tough enough, especially in the higher levels of the game.

Rits are a support class, so forcing people to split aps on an already marginal class is only going to weaken it more, because the only way to get Pain AND Bloodsong working now will be to take APs from Spawning Power (which reduces each spirit's relative vitality) or Communing (which reduces their damage) and put those APs into Channeling, which is an attribute designed primarily around supporting your spirits. So, as noted before, you're going to have to live with reduced damage or reduced health for your spirits, and in the higher levels of the game (or god forbid, DoA) they won't live long enough or do enough damage to make a difference. Rits are on their way to becoming the "toy poodle" class: cute but largely ineffective, depending on where you are.

I can't address PvP because I don't play PvP, but if - as you suggest - spirit-spamming Rits are already disappearing in PvP, why the change? Meanwhile, Restoration Rits keep getting buffed. OK, so the devs want people to play more healing Rits than spirit Rits. That certainly seems to be the implication these changes are causing.

OTOH, Motivation Paragons are getting another kick in the balls because...er, I don't know...they can't heal as well as a Restoration Rit. or a Monk??? WTF is that?!?

BTW, "Incoming" is a Command skill, not a Motivation skill, and it's Motivation Paragons that have gotten the shaft now not once but twice. (And anyone who knows what happened to Regen Scrappers and Fire/Fire Tanks in CoH certainly understands where this is going if it keeps up).

Maybe MPs were overpowered in PvP, I don't know. But even the potential for two straight nerfs to one class is not something I want to see in a game I always thought was pretty well balanced.

IMHO.

Serling · January 2007

"The specific ones that effected me were Spirit Rift..."

Is it still 3 seconds to cast and 2 to fire? That alone was enough to cause me to take it off my Rit's skill bar.

Serling · January 2007

Gaile...

If you guys could provide us with your views on why you're thinking of making these changes, we might be able to understand your reasons for wanting to do so better. Kinda' hard to see where this is headed when we don't know why you all feel the need to make some of these changes.

VGJustice · January 2007

Tripple post ftw, Serling -_-U

From the GW main site:
Spirit Rift: decreased Energy cost to 10, decreased casting time to 1 second.

Serling · January 2007

Thanks for that. Didn't see it on the main site when I was checking updates last night.

One more thing I'd like to add about player testing:

I know A-Net is not Cryptic (thank goodness for that), but Cryptic - design studio for City of series - is infamous for open player testing of updates and changes before they go to the live servers, asking for people's feedback, then ignoring them and putting whatever they wanted up on the live servers anyway. I'm always more than a little skeptical when someone says they want your feedback. It usually means all they want is your "validation" for a really bad idea.

But then, I'm a little jaded, I guess.

Hope A-Net is different.

Late.

VGJustice · January 2007

Tested out Sharpen Daggers with Barrage, and found that it does indeed end VERY quickly in that instance (each arrow from Barrage counts as a single attack, so if you hit 5+ on your first volley, gg SD). I'm a little disappointed, this was one of the skill combinations that was going to make me clean the dust off of my Assassin. Now my best hope is to play him as a Ranger that gets a lot of critical hits (not too fond of that idea, a Ranger would probably be better suited to that role), pick up the daggers again and see if I can actually enjoy myself with that class (which I don't), or just leave him as is and convert him to a storage mule. Which is really sad in and of itself, I like the character. But I hate the class.

Really, 5 hits isn't very much. Even for an assassin, they're going to hit more than 5 times in 30 seconds, and some will hit a LOT more than 5 times. But, I can understand that you don't want it to last forever like it was. How about doubling the new variation, bump it up to "the next 1..10 attack skills", and possibly also mention that it's not just how many attack skills you use, but how many times your attack skills hit a target. Even if you don't increase how many times it can activate, you REALLY should mention that in the skill description.

Serling · January 2007

VG...

I don't even use SD on my sins anymore. First of all, it's an enchanment, so it can be stripped, shattered, defiled, envenomed, and all other kinds of nasty stuff a sin doesn't need. Jagged Strike is better: causes bleeding and counts as a lead attack, even against foes that don't bleed, plus it recharges in 4 seconds. Unsuspecting strike costs more and recharges slower.

I played my second sin all the way through Factions as a dagger master using death's charge, jagged strike, wild strike, death blossom (all recharge in 4 seconds now), critical eye, flashing blades, mending, and resurrect. When using my hero monks, this build is hard to kill (combo of Aegis from monk and Flashing Blades is great) and does a lot of damage, especially now that DB recharges in 4 seconds.

I didn't like sins when they first came out, but having played one all the way through both Tyria and Cantha, they've become my favorite. I have 3 on 2 accounts (because I can).

(Some may argue that mine is not an optimal build but then, I don't read web boards to find out what the latest "cookie cutter" build is. All I know is this build works very well for me.)

Hope this helps.

P.S. I will agree that changing SD was a move to make A/Rs less powerful and thus less popular. Still, at least with DB recharging in 4 seconds now, Sin's got a huge buff in damage potential.

Secrom · January 2007

Well I haven't tested HA so I can't comment.

As for the skills, overall I like the changes. (Note: I play mostly Necromancer/different flavours, Assassin/Necromancer and Ranger/Warrior)

Amon the things I like best: the new Beguiling Haze for assassin is awesome IMO. Incendiary Arrows for rangers is almost viable now

30 seconds recharge on Throw Dirt is nice too.

Nice to see that Searing Flames got toned down a bit.

Among the things that bug me is that Malign Intervention doesn't exploit a corpse anymore, and I can't really see the logic behind this. You still raise a minion from a dead body after all.

Deathly Swarm and Dancing Daggers did enough damage as it was, can't really see the point in buffing them (to compensate for casting time for the former maybe?)

Finally (someone here might be able to answer that one) how does Weakness work now? Is it only a -1 to attributes or does this come on top of the reduced attack damage?

I will agree that changing SD was a move to make A/Rs less powerful and thus less popular.

Well the skill is called Sharpen DAGGERS after all... Seeping Wound + SD + Apply Poison doesn't sound too shabby to me...

Lydon · January 2007

Skill: Searing Flames

Observations: Personally I've had enough of Elementalists chasing after me casting this ever few seconds and there being no way for me to get away from it. Increasing its damage is the total opposite to what needs to be done imho.

Serling · January 2007

BTW VG, just tested a new build on my very old (first character) R/E:

Barrage + Fav Winds + EoE + Fire Bow + Conjure Flame and my elemental hero was spamming Mark of Rodgort on the baddies.

'Nuff said. Will test it more in Underworld on B/P team and report the results.

(Hope it doesn't get nerfed).

VGJustice · January 2007

A Conjure Barrager is a pretty old build, and that's not the point. If I had wanted to run Bows, I've got a Ranger to do it with that has every R skill from Proph and Factions, and every non-elite from Nightfall, with plenty of skill options to pick from.

I wanted to run something that's different, something that's not all that common or doesn't meet the expected norm. Why else would I continue to play a melee Ranger after all this time? Why would I seek out the strange and unusual when the more common and "accepted" builds are more effective? Because there are ways to be effective by experimenting with underused and neglected skills.

You wanna try something odd that's effective? Mix Apply Poison, Tiger's Fury, Feral Lunge, Gash, and Toxicity. Instant coverage for the Deep Wound, and 9 pips of degen. Not to mention that you can apply the Deep Wound almost imediately when you have the adrenaline. And you don't even need very high WS to make it effective.

Akaraxle · January 2007

Originally posted by VIOL@TION
Skill: Searing Flames
Observations: Personally I've had enough of Elementalists chasing after me casting this ever few seconds and there being no way for me to get away from it. Increasing its damage is the total opposite to what needs to be done imho.

Err, they didn't increase its damage at all... Searing Flames' burning duration has been reduced, and Glowing Gaze (the skill that allowed SF to be spammed) has had its recharge increased.

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