I've played Space based games for years and I still think that EVE's gameplay mechanics fit for the type of game that it is. A CAPITAL SHIP based MMO.
LeJohn answer me this, have you ever seen two 747 passenger jets dogfighting? How about a B-52 Bomber? No? Well then why would you expect to see ships 10x the size of those dogfighting?
well one arguement is that its spaces so in a vacuum it doens't matter how big your ship is (to a degree, if its the size of a planet then its a different matter).
however i do agree it would be rather frustrating trying to control a large ship with a joystick while programming all the different guns to fire on different targets or even the same target. its on thing when you're a fighter and another when you are a battleship with 4 large artillery guns and missile lauchers
Sorry Fade, but it very much DOES matter, and all because of a little thing called momentum. Once you get several thousand tons of mass moving in a given direction, it take a LOT of energy, not to mention a considerable amount of time, to get it moving in another. The fact it is in a vacuum affects momentum not in the slightest.
The argument of dogfighting 747's illustrates to point about momentum perfectly.
thats why you have thrusters. an object in space moving on a foward vector needs a rather small amount of force to move diagonally from the previous vector. yes you are correct that a large object moving foward would need proportionate force to stop, however i have never seen or heard of a dogfight where a craft purposely stops.
_________________________________ playing: ww2online: Fader EVE: Fader Bane proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
Originally posted by Fade Originally posted by Eschiava Originally posted by Fade Originally posted by Minsc Originally posted by LeJohn ...
I've played Space based games for years and I still think that EVE's gameplay mechanics fit for the type of game that it is. A CAPITAL SHIP based MMO.
LeJohn answer me this, have you ever seen two 747 passenger jets dogfighting? How about a B-52 Bomber? No? Well then why would you expect to see ships 10x the size of those dogfighting?
well one arguement is that its spaces so in a vacuum it doens't matter how big your ship is (to a degree, if its the size of a planet then its a different matter).
however i do agree it would be rather frustrating trying to control a large ship with a joystick while programming all the different guns to fire on different targets or even the same target. its on thing when you're a fighter and another when you are a battleship with 4 large artillery guns and missile lauchers
Sorry Fade, but it very much DOES matter, and all because of a little thing called momentum. Once you get several thousand tons of mass moving in a given direction, it take a LOT of energy, not to mention a considerable amount of time, to get it moving in another. The fact it is in a vacuum affects momentum not in the slightest. The argument of dogfighting 747's illustrates to point about momentum perfectly.
thats why you have thrusters. an object in space moving on a foward vector needs a rather small amount of force to move diagonally from the previous vector. yes you are correct that a large object moving foward would need proportionate force to stop, however i have never seen or heard of a dogfight where a craft purposely stops.
He was talking about turning. To maneuver a big ship, even in a vacuum would take an extremely larger amount of force and would never be as fast as a smaller ship.
I tried to look up the volume of a 747 today, I failed. I could have figured it out, but I would had to have figured it out myself and it just wouldn't be worth the time for this thread.
not necessarily. to level out and turn satellites they use thrusters with the same force as a spray paint can. if you keep the thrusters in proportion with the object and spaced to compensate for surface area one should be able to maneuver a large ship.
_________________________________ playing: ww2online: Fader EVE: Fader Bane proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
Surface area is not relevant when considering space amneuvers.
Second,
If you have a a ship with a mass of 1000KG moving at 1000m/s and you wish to stop it, it will require the expenditure of enough energy to hurl 1000KG moving at 1000m/s in the opposite direction or a smaller mass at a higher velocity. Sure, you can change course on a sattelite with a spray-can thruster, but it takes a long time to make even a small change. Expecting a capital ship to engage in dogfight maneuvers is just not something that is likely to happen, at least not so long as we must rely on newtonian physics to make it happen.
not necessarily. to level out and turn satellites they use thrusters with the same force as a spray paint can. if you keep the thrusters in proportion with the object and spaced to compensate for surface area one should be able to maneuver a large ship.
Well you have to consider several things with that, Satellites are performing very minor manuevers, usually measured in a few feet per second and the main path of the satelitte is barely changed. the Satelitte is not stopping its orbit and completely reversing it with those jets they are making minor course corrections. 4 feet per second is not something you consider to be combat speeds. Compared with the vast majority of the satelittes momentum is provided by a external source suce as the Space shuttle or rocket that put the satelitte into orbit to begin with. The TV series Babylon 5 showed very well the combat speeds of small ships in a true newtonian enviroment with most of the fighters in that show traveling roughly the length of the ship every second. Over all you do not what your ship to be able to travel much faster than what your engines will propel you to in a few seconds. if you continue to accelerate faster you run into risks or not being able to react quick enough to avoid other ships and other astral phenominom(Sp?)This causes the maximum effective speed is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced by going to true newtonian physics. Yes, you can get up to short of speed of light, but honestly the average combat speed of a fighter is extremely slow in a newtonian enviroment.
Also ust consider ranges, the firagate weapons work now because of the lack of newtonian physics, it would be a pain to have combat in frigs due to the fact you would pass in and out of weapons range extremely fast. If you do have a engince capable of propel your ship up to 20kmps and your guns have a range of 10km that means you get about half a second to fire or you shots "fizzle" or your past your target. Some of the problem caused by the speed can be allieviated by turreted weapons or changing the facing of your ship with out adjusting the course but even that stil restricts repeated weapon usage.
On capital ships (realize again that all player piloted ships in EVE are technically "capital ships") you run into the fact that you must restrict your weapons to allow for more main engine class thruster to provide any significant combat manuvuering. The Battletech universe adjusted for this by having manuvuering thrusters spin the ship so that the main engines were in position to apply force to adjust the direction of travel for the ship.
Over all the more real you try to make the game the less enjoyable a majority of people enjoy. And while I'm not about to have CCP simplify EVE they don't need to make it more of a pain to learn.
if I missed anything its more because this post is getting alot longer than I wanted it but explinations are required.
yea its an interesting topic. ill have to go ask a physics professor to get the real deal. of course no one knows fully how it will work since well we aren't that advanced in space.
back to the topic of this thread, i believe that the combat is fine the way it is. i will admit at first it does seem lackluster however it grows on you especially when you are using more advance ships and understand the tracking of turrents, signature radiuses, and vectors. once you understand these things combat becomes very invovled. if they ever do implement joystick controls (which i am positive they never will) i hope it is only for the purpose of controling fighters launched from capital ships. i wouldn't mind barreling rolling over a titan to knock out its guns.
_________________________________ playing: ww2online: Fader EVE: Fader Bane proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
yea its an interesting topic. ill have to go ask a physics professor to get the real deal. of course no one knows fully how it will work since well we aren't that advanced in space.
Noone fully knows how basic newtonian physics works?
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
yea its an interesting topic. ill have to go ask a physics professor to get the real deal. of course no one knows fully how it will work since well we aren't that advanced in space.
Noone fully knows how basic newtonian physics works?
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force alright no need to get defensive. yes we have accepted theories of physics and many believe are gospel, however thats what they said when aristotle was in charge.
also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax.
_________________________________ playing: ww2online: Fader EVE: Fader Bane proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
yea its an interesting topic. ill have to go ask a physics professor to get the real deal. of course no one knows fully how it will work since well we aren't that advanced in space.
Noone fully knows how basic newtonian physics works?
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force alright no need to get defensive. yes we have accepted theories of physics and many believe are gospel, however thats what they said when aristotle was in charge.
also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax.
edit: you also quoted wikipedia, while being a nice quick reference it is not the highest the crediblity scale.
_________________________________ playing: ww2online: Fader EVE: Fader Bane proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
yea its an interesting topic. ill have to go ask a physics professor to get the real deal. of course no one knows fully how it will work since well we aren't that advanced in space.
Noone fully knows how basic newtonian physics works?
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force alright no need to get defensive. yes we have accepted theories of physics and many believe are gospel, however thats what they said when aristotle was in charge.
also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax.
edit: you also quoted wikipedia, while being a nice quick reference it is not the highest the crediblity scale. This is also a video game and I don't think that quantum physics actually comes into play, since you know, the games set in a fake setting, with fake ships, and fake characters.
"also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax."
Okay, so the physics professor won't be able to tell us anything either then, since he hasn't flown these ships in space. Then again, if we don't know for sure how a large vessel will handle, then the way they handle in EVE could be 100% accurate, and we wouldn't even know it until we try it. Is that what you are saying?
TBH though, I think you should have a little more faith in the laws of physics. They have been tested an incredible number of times and have been shown to be accurate. It is not hard to get an accurate idea of how a large ship would act in space based on what we know already. After all, empirical knowledge is not the only knowledge we possess.
yea its an interesting topic. ill have to go ask a physics professor to get the real deal. of course no one knows fully how it will work since well we aren't that advanced in space.
Noone fully knows how basic newtonian physics works?
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force alright no need to get defensive. yes we have accepted theories of physics and many believe are gospel, however thats what they said when aristotle was in charge.
also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax.
edit: you also quoted wikipedia, while being a nice quick reference it is not the highest the crediblity scale. This is also a video game and I don't think that quantum physics actually comes into play, since you know, the games set in a fake setting, with fake ships, and fake characters. excellent point, the degree this arguement is moving to is irrelevant to the previous purpose. no need to get one's back up about one's understanding of physics.
_________________________________ playing: ww2online: Fader EVE: Fader Bane proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
It (with large fleet battles) is a game of chess pitting Fleet Commander (or boss, whatever) against the enemy. Making sure each pilot does what they need to do, to A) kill the enemy and not die.
Why or how physics came into it, I don't want to know! There's enough lag in the 50+ ship mini battles as it is, without introducing Elite:Frontier 2 control system. Which for that game rocked. It wouldn't feel quite right in Eve.
Read the storylines guys, you're suspended in a pod with green goo, your spinal cord and brain is plugged into your ship telemetry. Why would you want to change that?
loved freelancer eve would be even better if they had that same combat system....could you imagin taking an af and chasing &dog fighting or an interceptor ..now that would be fun as hell
On the argument of it being hard for a capital ship to maneuver in space, and take a massive force just to stop. Do you actually use a force to stop your ship in EVE? No, it deceleates as soon as you turn your engines off.
And I love the idea of dogfights, but it is an unlrealistic goal for an MMO. The best I would hope for is an optional control system for the frigate class of ships only, to give them a fighting chance against the bigger, less maneuverable ships.
Ok, first off physics do not apply to EVE, the Devs explained this as "diffrent galaxy diffrent rules" 4 years ago.
If you played Freelancer on the then you had a chance to fly a battleship. Yes it was slow, but because it used Turrets alinement of your ship was simply to keep the main gun turrets on the target and not expose your blind sides.
Now, I have played in 30 player battles in freelance with all of the real tracking and clipping with no lag. I have been in 6 (5 to me) person battles on EVE where I was lagged the entire time. Other than alliance battles the biggest fight most players will be in will probly be 10 people, so I am confident it could be done. (I have seen and been in it)
Only guided missles would fly around roids, dumbfire (non-tracking) would and should hit the first object (roid) whos path it crosses.
Yes you are in a pod but if you read the back story you also have crew on the larger ships, they are not in pods. Have you ever played MAX (Maxumim exploration And Attack)? Your pod is the brain/controller of the ship, ok remember new galaxy new rules . They had to come up with a way to provide an excape pod but the idea of you excaping while your crew died because you ran to an excape pod was kinda wrong but if you were always in a pod then they did not have to fix that or allow you to walk the stations (as in Freelancer). They could have done it, but it was easer and faster not to.
Same reasion not to allow players to actually fly the ships, it would not have added more lag, it was just easer to program a MOO (Master Of Orion) style fight than a Freelancer style fight.
Yep. It gets a lot better later on though, when you can actually choose which weapons you go with and skill is needed. Even then however, its like all other games in its repetitivity (a word?).
Ok, first off physics do not apply to EVE, the Devs explained this as "diffrent galaxy diffrent rules" 4 years ago.
If you played Freelancer on the then you had a chance to fly a battleship. Yes it was slow, but because it used Turrets alinement of your ship was simply to keep the main gun turrets on the target and not expose your blind sides.
Yes and that was added in a mod and poorly ballanced, also freelancer is not even close to being the same scale as EVE. The BS's in Freelancer were about the same size as cruisers in EVE would be, if not smaller.
Now, I have played in 30 player battles in freelance with all of the real tracking and clipping with no lag. I have been in 6 (5 to me) person battles on EVE where I was lagged the entire time. Other than alliance battles the biggest fight most players will be in will probly be 10 people, so I am confident it could be done. (I have seen and been in it)
It's not even close to the same thing, there is a huge difference between the network code of a MMO works and the network code of a FPS works, which is essentially what freelancer was. The fact that you are even TRYING to compare the two just highlights your ignorance in the matter. For a better sense of the effect of trying FPS style combat in a MMO see Vendetta Online, the lag when trying to fly around in that game, even when no-one is around is horrendous. FPS level data transmission in an MMO is unfeasible with current net technology. It doesn't matter how many ships are in one combat, everyone is affected by everyone else on that node, and that could be up to 3000 people for all we know. The only way to get a near-fps experience in an MMO currently is to use heavy instancing.
Only guided missles would fly around roids, dumbfire (non-tracking) would and should hit the first object (roid) whos path it crosses.
Yes you are in a pod but if you read the back story you also have crew on the larger ships, they are not in pods. Have you ever played MAX (Maxumim exploration And Attack)? Your pod is the brain/controller of the ship, ok remember new galaxy new rules . They had to come up with a way to provide an excape pod but the idea of you excaping while your crew died because you ran to an excape pod was kinda wrong but if you were always in a pod then they did not have to fix that or allow you to walk the stations (as in Freelancer). They could have done it, but it was easer and faster not to. Docking and walking around in freelancer didn't add anything to the game, actually the immensly retarded repeating npc's that were in every carbon-copy bar annoyed the living fuck out of me. I would rather have not had them at all in game. When CCP adds avatar's in they will hopefully eventually add in a purpose for them, beyond just useless fluff. CCP never doesn anything based on whether it's easier or faster, they do it based on whether it is good for the game and they have the resources for it.
Same reasion not to allow players to actually fly the ships, it would not have added more lag, it was just easer to program a MOO (Master Of Orion) style fight than a Freelancer style fight.
Having players controling ships in realtime WOULD cause more lag, exponentially depending on how many ships are in a grid. The same is true for all MMO's, that's why they use heavy prediction, otherwise it would bring the servers to their knees worse than it does now. Ever heard of Lagrimmar, you know, that town in WoW that before they put Auction houses in major cities had like a bajillion people in it and ran like complete ass even when no-one was moving around? Yeah now take that effect and multiply it by 1000 and that's how bad the lag would be if it was calculating XYZ co-ordinates for everyone in your grid/zone in realtime on every player logged into the server. Trust me it wouldn't be pretty.
Eve is an RTS with ship combat balanced for soloing.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
That's probably because you played it on the free trial :-/ There are so many different mods and ships you could use that do different effects your head will spin! But good luck on w/e crappy game you pick up next.
I am curious, did you ever play freelancer?
What brought me to EVE was that I was looking for a MMO of freelancer. In Freelancer the mining was mining, the fights required both skill and tactics and the environments… well even by today’s standards they were great and you actually felt like you were flying through space.
You should be able to pick up a copy of Freelancer for $10 now, but once you play it you will understand why those of that like EVE are not impressed with EVE. Yes EVE is a fun game but it’s no freelancer.
Agreed
But then... Freelancer is nothing compared to Privateer
What I wouldn't give for someone to ressurect Privateer (the first one) on modern graphics. They wouldn't even need to change the game at all. Just re-make it with modern graphics. OMFG I'd never play anything else. As good as Freelancer is it didn't even come CLOSE to Privateer. Not nearly as good by a mile.
Eve is an RTS with ship combat balanced for soloing.
Wow, I guess now that EVE has won the reader's choice awards again the trolls are out in force, eh?
I'm a little embarrassed posting this, even this is more than Mr. Donkey deserves.
don't be an ass man, i'm not being negative towards eve. All the tactics in Eve are based around intel, and focus fire and industrial strength. What I'm saying is that the fact you can fly your ship as much as you can you should be thankful for since that's not what eve's combat is all about. I enjoy ramming people off of gates as much as the next guy, and when I do that I am mostly soloing or in a very small gang, thus "balanced for soloing".
On an alliance vs. alliance level the fleet tactics are like an RTS, and you could probably get by with only the commands warp to and approach. But since there is a solo aspect in the game they had to add a little more to it like orbit and keep at range, and being able to double click to move (like ram people off gates).
On another level solo tactics are somewhat RTS as well, setting up ambushes and scanning roid belts for locations of miners. To have more of a jumpgate/privateer style controls wouldn't really add to the combat in EVE, well yeah it would add to it, but I'm saying it's like putting a V8 engine in a miata, yeah sure it's going to be faster and stuff, but the car was meant to be light and nimble and putting a big ol engine in it kind of defeats the purpose in some sense.
Wanna buy an occator? :P
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You? if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it. Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Comments
LeJohn answer me this, have you ever seen two 747 passenger jets dogfighting? How about a B-52 Bomber? No? Well then why would you expect to see ships 10x the size of those dogfighting?
well one arguement is that its spaces so in a vacuum it doens't matter how big your ship is (to a degree, if its the size of a planet then its a different matter).
however i do agree it would be rather frustrating trying to control a large ship with a joystick while programming all the different guns to fire on different targets or even the same target. its on thing when you're a fighter and another when you are a battleship with 4 large artillery guns and missile lauchers
Sorry Fade, but it very much DOES matter, and all because of a little thing called momentum. Once you get several thousand tons of mass moving in a given direction, it take a LOT of energy, not to mention a considerable amount of time, to get it moving in another. The fact it is in a vacuum affects momentum not in the slightest.
The argument of dogfighting 747's illustrates to point about momentum perfectly.
thats why you have thrusters. an object in space moving on a foward vector needs a rather small amount of force to move diagonally from the previous vector. yes you are correct that a large object moving foward would need proportionate force to stop, however i have never seen or heard of a dogfight where a craft purposely stops._________________________________
playing:
ww2online: Fader
EVE: Fader Bane
proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
LeJohn answer me this, have you ever seen two 747 passenger jets dogfighting? How about a B-52 Bomber? No? Well then why would you expect to see ships 10x the size of those dogfighting?
well one arguement is that its spaces so in a vacuum it doens't matter how big your ship is (to a degree, if its the size of a planet then its a different matter).
however i do agree it would be rather frustrating trying to control a large ship with a joystick while programming all the different guns to fire on different targets or even the same target. its on thing when you're a fighter and another when you are a battleship with 4 large artillery guns and missile lauchers
Sorry Fade, but it very much DOES matter, and all because of a little thing called momentum. Once you get several thousand tons of mass moving in a given direction, it take a LOT of energy, not to mention a considerable amount of time, to get it moving in another. The fact it is in a vacuum affects momentum not in the slightest.
The argument of dogfighting 747's illustrates to point about momentum perfectly.
thats why you have thrusters. an object in space moving on a foward vector needs a rather small amount of force to move diagonally from the previous vector. yes you are correct that a large object moving foward would need proportionate force to stop, however i have never seen or heard of a dogfight where a craft purposely stops.
He was talking about turning. To maneuver a big ship, even in a vacuum would take an extremely larger amount of force and would never be as fast as a smaller ship.
I tried to look up the volume of a 747 today, I failed. I could have figured it out, but I would had to have figured it out myself and it just wouldn't be worth the time for this thread.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
_________________________________
playing:
ww2online: Fader
EVE: Fader Bane
proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
First,
Surface area is not relevant when considering space amneuvers.
Second,
If you have a a ship with a mass of 1000KG moving at 1000m/s and you wish to stop it, it will require the expenditure of enough energy to hurl 1000KG moving at 1000m/s in the opposite direction or a smaller mass at a higher velocity. Sure, you can change course on a sattelite with a spray-can thruster, but it takes a long time to make even a small change. Expecting a capital ship to engage in dogfight maneuvers is just not something that is likely to happen, at least not so long as we must rely on newtonian physics to make it happen.
I love this thread. If I lived in Vermont, I'd marry it.
Also ust consider ranges, the firagate weapons work now because of the lack of newtonian physics, it would be a pain to have combat in frigs due to the fact you would pass in and out of weapons range extremely fast. If you do have a engince capable of propel your ship up to 20kmps and your guns have a range of 10km that means you get about half a second to fire or you shots "fizzle" or your past your target. Some of the problem caused by the speed can be allieviated by turreted weapons or changing the facing of your ship with out adjusting the course but even that stil restricts repeated weapon usage.
On capital ships (realize again that all player piloted ships in EVE are technically "capital ships") you run into the fact that you must restrict your weapons to allow for more main engine class thruster to provide any significant combat manuvuering. The Battletech universe adjusted for this by having manuvuering thrusters spin the ship so that the main engines were in position to apply force to adjust the direction of travel for the ship.
Over all the more real you try to make the game the less enjoyable a majority of people enjoy. And while I'm not about to have CCP simplify EVE they don't need to make it more of a pain to learn.
if I missed anything its more because this post is getting alot longer than I wanted it but explinations are required.
back to the topic of this thread, i believe that the combat is fine the way it is. i will admit at first it does seem lackluster however it grows on you especially when you are using more advance ships and understand the tracking of turrents, signature radiuses, and vectors. once you understand these things combat becomes very invovled. if they ever do implement joystick controls (which i am positive they never will) i hope it is only for the purpose of controling fighters launched from capital ships. i wouldn't mind barreling rolling over a titan to knock out its guns.
_________________________________
playing:
ww2online: Fader
EVE: Fader Bane
proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
for everyone who want to experience that on Fighter level i can just advise to play a game of the I-War series, which come very close
to real space physics.
EVEs Combat is 3-D and major tactical, so you dont have to worry to aim or something, you have to worry about the right position, the
upcoming movement to keep you in the right position for your guns, EWar etc.
Boiled down its just a game of numbers, which appeals to one, and is horribe to another.
The point of EVEs combat is behind the combat of loosing you ship, your pod so a lot you worked for, or feel then win when you
destroyed someone else.
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force alright no need to get defensive. yes we have accepted theories of physics and many believe are gospel, however thats what they said when aristotle was in charge.
also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax.
_________________________________
playing:
ww2online: Fader
EVE: Fader Bane
proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force alright no need to get defensive. yes we have accepted theories of physics and many believe are gospel, however thats what they said when aristotle was in charge.
also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax.
edit: you also quoted wikipedia, while being a nice quick reference it is not the highest the crediblity scale.
_________________________________
playing:
ww2online: Fader
EVE: Fader Bane
proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force alright no need to get defensive. yes we have accepted theories of physics and many believe are gospel, however thats what they said when aristotle was in charge.
also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax.
edit: you also quoted wikipedia, while being a nice quick reference it is not the highest the crediblity scale. This is also a video game and I don't think that quantum physics actually comes into play, since you know, the games set in a fake setting, with fake ships, and fake characters.
Fade said:
"also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax."
Okay, so the physics professor won't be able to tell us anything either then, since he hasn't flown these ships in space. Then again, if we don't know for sure how a large vessel will handle, then the way they handle in EVE could be 100% accurate, and we wouldn't even know it until we try it. Is that what you are saying?
TBH though, I think you should have a little more faith in the laws of physics. They have been tested an incredible number of times and have been shown to be accurate. It is not hard to get an accurate idea of how a large ship would act in space based on what we know already. After all, empirical knowledge is not the only knowledge we possess.
Christ, its not even like you're arguing about cutting-edge quantum mechanics or something, youre arguing about shit that's been accepted as reasonably accurate since the fucking 1600s.
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force alright no need to get defensive. yes we have accepted theories of physics and many believe are gospel, however thats what they said when aristotle was in charge.
also we will never know for sure how a large vessel (not the sattelites we have now) moves until we actually build and fly them in space, that was my point so relax.
edit: you also quoted wikipedia, while being a nice quick reference it is not the highest the crediblity scale. This is also a video game and I don't think that quantum physics actually comes into play, since you know, the games set in a fake setting, with fake ships, and fake characters. excellent point, the degree this arguement is moving to is irrelevant to the previous purpose. no need to get one's back up about one's understanding of physics.
_________________________________
playing:
ww2online: Fader
EVE: Fader Bane
proud member of BKB http://www.bkbhq.com/
It's a game.
It has a control system.
You may not like it.
Kinda tough until they change it.
I hope they don't because it's NOT an fps.
It (with large fleet battles) is a game of chess pitting Fleet Commander (or boss, whatever) against the enemy. Making sure each pilot does what they need to do, to A) kill the enemy and
not die.
Why or how physics came into it, I don't want to know! There's enough lag in the 50+ ship mini battles as it is, without introducing Elite:Frontier 2 control system. Which for that game rocked. It wouldn't feel quite right in Eve.
Read the storylines guys, you're suspended in a pod with green goo, your spinal cord and brain is plugged into your ship telemetry. Why would you want to change that?
Life is about memories the more the better!
On the argument of it being hard for a capital ship to maneuver in space, and take a massive force just to stop. Do you actually use a force to stop your ship in EVE? No, it deceleates as soon as you turn your engines off.
And I love the idea of dogfights, but it is an unlrealistic goal for an MMO. The best I would hope for is an optional control system for the frigate class of ships only, to give them a fighting chance against the bigger, less maneuverable ships.
Ok, first off physics do not apply to EVE, the Devs explained this as "diffrent galaxy diffrent rules" 4 years ago.
If you played Freelancer on the then you had a chance to fly a battleship. Yes it was slow, but because it used Turrets alinement of your ship was simply to keep the main gun turrets on the target and not expose your blind sides.
Now, I have played in 30 player battles in freelance with all of the real tracking and clipping with no lag. I have been in 6 (5 to me) person battles on EVE where I was lagged the entire time. Other than alliance battles the biggest fight most players will be in will probly be 10 people, so I am confident it could be done. (I have seen and been in it)
Only guided missles would fly around roids, dumbfire (non-tracking) would and should hit the first object (roid) whos path it crosses.
Yes you are in a pod but if you read the back story you also have crew on the larger ships, they are not in pods. Have you ever played MAX (Maxumim exploration And Attack)? Your pod is the brain/controller of the ship, ok remember new galaxy new rules . They had to come up with a way to provide an excape pod but the idea of you excaping while your crew died because you ran to an excape pod was kinda wrong but if you were always in a pod then they did not have to fix that or allow you to walk the stations (as in Freelancer). They could have done it, but it was easer and faster not to.
Same reasion not to allow players to actually fly the ships, it would not have added more lag, it was just easer to program a MOO (Master Of Orion) style fight than a Freelancer style fight.
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end
Wow, I guess now that EVE has won the reader's choice awards again the trolls are out in force, eh?
I'm a little embarrassed posting this, even this is more than Mr. Donkey deserves.
But then... Freelancer is nothing compared to Privateer
What I wouldn't give for someone to ressurect Privateer (the first one) on modern graphics. They wouldn't even need to change the game at all. Just re-make it with modern graphics. OMFG I'd never play anything else. As good as Freelancer is it didn't even come CLOSE to Privateer. Not nearly as good by a mile.
Where have you been? Coming up on the year anniversary of the Privateer remake http://wcuniverse.sourceforge.net/announcements.htm
It is awesome.
Wow, I guess now that EVE has won the reader's choice awards again the trolls are out in force, eh?
I'm a little embarrassed posting this, even this is more than Mr. Donkey deserves.
don't be an ass man, i'm not being negative towards eve. All the tactics in Eve are based around intel, and focus fire and industrial strength. What I'm saying is that the fact you can fly your ship as much as you can you should be thankful for since that's not what eve's combat is all about. I enjoy ramming people off of gates as much as the next guy, and when I do that I am mostly soloing or in a very small gang, thus "balanced for soloing".On an alliance vs. alliance level the fleet tactics are like an RTS, and you could probably get by with only the commands warp to and approach. But since there is a solo aspect in the game they had to add a little more to it like orbit and keep at range, and being able to double click to move (like ram people off gates).
On another level solo tactics are somewhat RTS as well, setting up ambushes and scanning roid belts for locations of miners. To have more of a jumpgate/privateer style controls wouldn't really add to the combat in EVE, well yeah it would add to it, but I'm saying it's like putting a V8 engine in a miata, yeah sure it's going to be faster and stuff, but the car was meant to be light and nimble and putting a big ol engine in it kind of defeats the purpose in some sense.
Wanna buy an occator? :P
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end