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WoW, Vanguard and raiding

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  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204


    Originally posted by mxmissile
    *Easy* fix for both camps.
    Killer sword X exists in game. Sword X is only obtainable by a hard/long solo quest. Same sword is available at the end of a hard/long 40 man raid, only at the end of the raid, the reward is 40 sword Xs (Not 1 or 2). No one loses, everyone has a blast, both solo and social players are satisfied, EVERYONE WINS!

    No, you're simply wrong. This would be fine for me, but is most definitely not acceptable for raiders. Raiders do not actually enjoy the gameplay of raiding, they enjoy things that come from raiding being unpleasant but providing better rewards. Things like being able to lord over other people in their gear, getting a free ride in PVP or non-raid PVE, or being able to boss people around in a raid guild.

    Just read other posts in this thread like:


    Originally posted by teldath
    no, i would not raid is the rewards where the same, because then they would not hold the value and pride. But, even if they where just a little bit better, i would raid.

    Originally posted by JulianDracos
    If you put in Raid content that had the same rewards you could get by grouping, then no one would go on raids. So, if you are a game developer that wants raids you are going to have to make the best rewards gained by raiding.

  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204


    Originally posted by Tudana
    With Vanguard promoting itself as item centric, it would not surprise me to see this type of gear showing up from raid content, Sigil has committed to “learning from past mistakes” Might they have this portion covered and the fears of someone like Pantastic be revealed to be unwarranted?

    How about read the FAQ link other people have posted? It's pretty silly to keep pretending like my fears about the game are 'unwarranted' when they're based on what the lead developer of the game has said about the game. When Brad McQuaid says that the game is not for you if you do not want to raid and do not want to be second rate, I don't see how anyone sane can consider my fears unfounded.


    Originally written by the lead developer of this game
    The only potentially controversial aspect of this is that is likely that not ALL of the best items you might want will be available through only one of these methods. If you are a person who wants ALL of the best stuff, you'll have to involve yourself in all of the above, including raiding and long contiguous adventures, even though the majority of content, including that which yields great rewards, will be group oriented.

    Will you be able to collect ALL of the best gear in the game without going on conventional raids and/or without trading/buying gear obtained from conventional raids? No.
  • BorneheldBorneheld Member Posts: 17
    Originally posted by Pantastic


     

    Originally posted by Tudana

    With Vanguard promoting itself as item centric, it would not surprise me to see this type of gear showing up from raid content, Sigil has committed to “learning from past mistakes” Might they have this portion covered and the fears of someone like Pantastic be revealed to be unwarranted?

     

    How about read the FAQ link other people have posted? It's pretty silly to keep pretending like my fears about the game are 'unwarranted' when they're based on what the lead developer of the game has said about the game. When Brad McQuaid says that the game is not for you if you do not want to raid and do not want to be second rate, I don't see how anyone sane can consider my fears unfounded.

     



    Originally written by the lead developer of this game

    The only potentially controversial aspect of this is that is likely that not ALL of the best items you might want will be available through only one of these methods. If you are a person who wants ALL of the best stuff, you'll have to involve yourself in all of the above, including raiding and long contiguous adventures, even though the majority of content, including that which yields great rewards, will be group oriented.



    Will you be able to collect ALL of the best gear in the game without going on conventional raids and/or without trading/buying gear obtained from conventional raids? No.

     

     

    /shrug

    Well, I will with draw from this topic and wish good luck on your crusade for the holy grail.

    I`m sure its out there somewhere.

  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204


    Originally posted by Markn12
    To any of you idiots who think raiding is easy or doesnt require work. Lead a raid once... If your in the guild leadership area...

    Yeah, raiding requires boring work, it's just not actually anything I'd consider hard, just mind-numbing. Even you, an ardent raid defender, ended up saying that it's the people running the raid that really do anything, you're implicitly admitting that most people on the raid are just following a small script, showing up on time, and not passing out from boredom. The difficult part for the leaders is organizing a big group of people and dealing with scheduling type issues, not any kind of in-game challenge. If I wanted to deal with that mess, I'd get a job in HR and get paid for it instead of paying to experience it.

  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204


    Originally posted by Tudana
    Well, I will with draw from this topic and wish good luck on your crusade for the holy grail.
    I`m sure its out there somewhere.

    In other words, I'm completely right and can support my position from the web page that people who disagree with me consider authoritative, but you wish the game was something else and so want to pretend that 'knowing basic facts about the game' is somehow like 'searching for a mythical object'.

  • mxmissilemxmissile Member UncommonPosts: 275
    Originally posted by Pantastic


     
     
    No, you're simply wrong. This would be fine for me, but is most definitely not acceptable for raiders. Raiders do not actually enjoy the gameplay of raiding, they enjoy things that come from raiding being unpleasant but providing better rewards. Things like being able to lord over other people in their gear, getting a free ride in PVP or non-raid PVE, or being able to boss people around in a raid guild.
    Just read other posts in this thread like:




     
     



    Personally, I dont agree, if the quest/raid is hard enough, the reward should be accordingly.  If the players and devs dont want an overabundunce  of Sword X's around, make the quest/raid that much harder, like something that is not run 50 times a day if you dont want 200 Sword X's in the game a day.

  • gymirgymir Member Posts: 17
    Wow feels like playing diablo, stupid drops from everything.
  • skeezixsskeezixs Member Posts: 66
    Originally posted by Pantastic


     

    Originally posted by skeezixs

    imo those that don't like to do raid content because it seems too much like work, or that it forces them to play in a way they do not enjoy. Is the same as those that used game sharks/ game genies to get to the end content or special features of a game.

     

    No, it's just people that play games they actually find enjoyable. Only someone with full-on raider brain damage could consider "I want a game to be fun to play" to be equivalent to "I want to skip past the actual gameplay".

     



    why would we spend 4 weeks learning a raid event when i could just get a group and go get it with fewer people and less difficulty? this whole concept make no sense to me.

     

    Yes, it's called raider brain damage. The concept of playing games that are fun is simply beyond your grasp, and the idea that stuff in a game should be enjoyable isn't even comprehensible, neither is the idea that you should be playing with people that you enjoy playing with.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     



    and yet another person that is to narrow minded person. the games are mmo's! MASS MULTIPLAYER this means they should require MASS MULTIPLAYER interactions.  I find it very enjoyable to solve the event to get the raid down so that the guild can put it on farm status and move on to the next. Wow did not have any such raids in fact only one was ever a wipe... stupid twin emps. Eq1  has some really nice ones tho like vish, daosheen, demiplane of blood, tunares tree and currently having fun learning the clockwork event in vergalid mines. It is not so much the fact that the gear is soo much better, than the fact that it is challenging  and gives a sense of accomplishment.  Most of the loot anymore from our raids i have no use for, but still go because they are fun. they are not the same old school raids of pull mob to corner and beat till dead. everyone needs to be at their keyboard and alert or your not gonna win. 

    Sounds to me you would only find it fun if they are like consol games. or like diablo where you only every need to solo but can join a group if you wish. everything obtainable by anyone no matter how hard they try, personally i dont see how that kinda of game will hold players for years of game play.  also if you dont enjoy the people you are playing with then heres an idea dont play with them. I have never had to join a guild where i did not enjoy being there to get to where i wanted to be. I also have found that you can be happy with what is available to you and don't worry about what they raiders have will make the game alot more fun. to many people now days want to be the best at the game but don't want to have to put the effort into getting there. then again some are just clueless on how to go from casual to raider and vice versa.

    If raiding and needing MASS players does not appeal to you then MASS MULTIPLAYER games may not be for you.

  • brostynbrostyn Member Posts: 3,092
    Originally posted by skeezixs

    Originally posted by Pantastic





    and yet another person that is to narrow minded person. the games are mmo's! MASS MULTIPLAYER this means they should require MASS MULTIPLAYER interactions.

    Hillarious. You're calling us narrow minded, but you just defined MMO so strictly as to leave little leeway as how one is played.

    I find it very enjoyable to solve the event to get the raid down so that the guild can put it on farm status and move on to the next. Wow did not have any such raids in fact only one was ever a wipe... stupid twin emps. Eq1  has some really nice ones tho like vish, daosheen, demiplane of blood, tunares tree and currently having fun learning the clockwork event in vergalid mines. It is not so much the fact that the gear is soo much better, than the fact that it is challenging  and gives a sense of accomplishment.  Most of the loot anymore from our raids i have no use for, but still go because they are fun. they are not the same old school raids of pull mob to corner and beat till dead. everyone needs to be at their keyboard and alert or your not gonna win.

    Solve a raid in eq? Simple, add more people. Zerg it up. Zerg is a very simple tactic. There is no solving raids in EQ. It requires no intelligence, no maturity.  Just a simple stay awake and do what simon says. 



    Another "tactic" that raiders think requires Einstein type intellect is gearing others members up, so they can zerg the target.

    Sounds to me you would only find it fun if they are like consol games. or like diablo where you only every need to solo but can join a group if you wish. everything obtainable by anyone no matter how hard they try, personally i dont see how that kinda of game will hold players for years of game play.  also if you dont enjoy the people you are playing with then heres an idea dont play with them. I have never had to join a guild where i did not enjoy being there to get to where i wanted to be. I also have found that you can be happy with what is available to you and don't worry about what they raiders have will make the game alot more fun. to many people now days want to be the best at the game but don't want to have to put the effort into getting there. then again some are just clueless on how to go from casual to raider and vice versa.

    No one has said anything about soloing for the best gear. And you're right I don't like raid players or games, so I don't play them. I appreciate the tip, though.

    I have to worry about what raiders have, because it imbalances the game. Read the thread if you want to pipe in with your opinion. Its obvious to most gamers why raid gear imbalances the group and solo play.

    I pay for a game, I expect to experience it all. Not 40% of it, and I better be treated equally. Raid games do not treat customers equally.

    If raiding and needing MASS players does not appeal to you then MASS MULTIPLAYER games may not be for you.

    How about this; raid games should be called RORPG. Raiding Only RPG. Just because it has a lot of players doesn't mean you need to bore them to death with 20-100 man raids.



  • green13green13 Member UncommonPosts: 1,341
    Originally posted by Pantastic


     
     
    How about read the FAQ link other people have posted? It's pretty silly to keep pretending like my fears about the game are 'unwarranted' when they're based on what the lead developer of the game has said about the game. When Brad McQuaid says that the game is not for you if you do not want to raid and do not want to be second rate, I don't see how anyone sane can consider my fears unfounded.

    I sympathise. I similarly found WoW raids but to be mind-numbingly boring. There was no challenge. Every single raid was the precise same dance. There was no skill involved - just basic rote memory. Success was nothing more than following a tightly narrated script. It was interesting the first few times but ultimately very bleh.

    I also think the Vanguard devs have been very cheeky trying to have it both ways. They say you don't need to raid - but for that "small minority" of players who want the best gear, then you'll have to do some raiding. It's a statement worthy of a politician.

    But given they haven't put all of the best gear into raid dungeons - according to what they've said so far it should be spread out more evenly across end-game content - I think Vanguard raids will be less onerous.

  • skeezixsskeezixs Member Posts: 66

    Obviously you never done any of the raids post planes of power. to think eq raids require thinking, kinda hard to zerg a raid with player cap on them, and they reset with no one having aggro on the target. or mass items neededing to be clicked during a raid. for a simple on to go over would be vish.

    if you die you get an add, if you hit the wrong mob you get more adds, eggs spawn that must be killed fast or the hatch many adds, plus you have aoes to deal with, the named makes adds, after a set life % more adds join in that have to be kited, plus having to have melee fighting at a set distance. also after 25% you get a aoe on you that ou have just seconds to get to a certain mob to say a key phrase to get cured or you die. one person does something wrong or dies and the whole raid can fail, and thats an easy raid now days.

    True the raid gear does imbalance the group content, by maing it easier for those raider group with to level. If raiders group at all.  I normally once i get to raiding no longer use that chacater for group play, due to there is very little to no gain from it.  If you dont want to contend with those raiders then your basically wanting a online option to a standard game, not a mmo.

    lol rorpg is funy on multiple levels basicly mmo stands for many players needed, or raiding. also rpg in a mmo?? I rarely see any true aspect of rpg's in mmo's now days.  I for one would love to see a mmo that has real role playing in it. What that would take would be a few things.

    the devs would have to make the game story centric not item centric. also a "world" feel would have to be there where in one could not just sit and kill ork number 5024352 just because the mystically keep poping out of thin air. They would also have to have really effects on the world in which the players play in. so that no 2 servers would be the same due to the choices of the players.  but currently everyone is stuck in the goal of a game should be the best gear, and not the best game play/ story.

  • PantasticPantastic Member Posts: 1,204


    Originally posted by skeezixs
    the games are mmo's! MASS MULTIPLAYER this means they should require MASS MULTIPLAYER interactions.

    They're MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games, thus you should be interacting with a MASS number of players. 40 or 70 people is not massive, it's just a kind of big LAN game, it's the interaction of hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of players that make it a massively multiplayer game. Having those people together in the world doing things is the key part of a game being an MMO, not cramming 70 people in one spot and having them overcome boredom.

    Interestingly, a lot of raiders log in, go on a raid with their guildmates or farm for consumables, then log off without running any content with other people. For a lot of raiders, their playstyle would be no different if there was a server housing just their guild. How many people outside of your guild do you actually run content with, for example?

    UO was the first widely successful MMORPG, I believe it was the one that coined the term. UO doesn't have raiding and never did. Are you saying that you don't consider UO to be an MMORPG?


    Sounds to me you would only find it fun if they are like consol games. or like diablo where you only every need to solo but can join a group if you wish.

    Yes, you have raider brain damage, you should probably see a doctor, it might be possible for them to reverse it. You see, I said that I hate raiding. The word 'raiding' and the word 'grouping' are two different words, but for some reason raider brain damage makes you completely forget that there's such thing as grouping. The brain cells that remain to you for some reason hear "I hate raiding" but turn it into "I hate raiding and grouping and interaction with other people in general."

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