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How WoW could have kept many as a subscribers.

WoW could have kept me and others as subscribers, if they had devoted more content that was similar to 1-60. WoW was fun and great 1-60. Had they added more quests similar to those in 1-60, I and many others would still be customers.



However, post 60 they decided that the future players should be stuck in instanced PvP and Raid grinds. Taking a look at Guild Wars, it makes me wonder if the competant devs left WoW for GW.



WoW only has around 2 million players in the USA, many of whom have quit playing. The mass of their player base comes from china. If you don't already know, customers in China have multiple accounts per person because they start losing in-game items** if they play too long, per the Blizzard deal with their government. So this whole 7 million players is quite a bloated number. I know of entire guilds and many other who have quit because we are tired of Blizzard not listening to it's customers.



MMOGchart states:

including over 1 million in Europe and somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million in North America, with most of the remainder in China



**edit: I read about the item loss in an article, but I cannot verify that has been implemented. I did confirm, "Players will be forced to take a five-hour break before they can return to a game." per news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4183340.stm

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Comments

  • ColdmeatColdmeat Member UncommonPosts: 3,400

    Given that they're really hurting for subscribers right now, I'm sure they will put your ideas into effect immediately.
    ::::40::

  • linuxgamerlinuxgamer Member Posts: 126
    Read my update, you beat me to the edit. 7 million subscribers is a bloated number. They may have 7+ million, but they have probably lost over 1 million, due to them not listening to their customers.

    Vanguard, Guild Wars, Warhammer will all keep chipping away at their customer base. I was in a guild with over 200 people, most every person has left WoW and my guild wasnt the only one.



  • linuxgamerlinuxgamer Member Posts: 126
    http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=42582&src=site-marq

    News from their largest subscriber base.

    "World of Warcraft profits tumble in China."

    "China is believed to have more Warcraft players than any other nation, at almost six million registered accounts and as many as 660,000 playing simultaneously."

    "The fall in revenue comes as long-term users begin to desert the aging game in China."




  • He's right.  I might still be playing now if the raids they released had been 5 or 10 mans instead and they had not allowed mudflation combined with ridiculous grinds to mess up PvP.   I would have at least left the game feeling ok about it.  Instead they just lied to people and alienated a lot of formerly happy customers.  And make no mistake, they purposely lied by omission in the face of direct questions about the direction of the game back when BWL and AQ were being released.  As far as I am concerned they are slime.

    He's also right about the subs.  Although I was not aware that the chinese time limit was actually enforced via item loss.

    Rob Pardo's Donut model is wrong and misguided.  I would go so far as to say its causes far more harm then good.  The "core" of that donut is made up of whiney little addicts anyway, no need to bow down to people who need a fix.  Its oo bad since most of the other design stuff from his AGC talk is pretty much right.  WoW got the pacing right.  Its made them millions then they enforce that assinine donut model and do the absolute opposite of what the rest of the game is designed to do.  In a game designed to minimize frustration they then turn around and piss people off just get stroke the jimmies of the "core" players.  Completely switching up the gamplay is quite stupid as well.  The only reason I can see for someone to go so far off course is because he was convinced of raiding complete superiority back when he was the guild leader of Tigole's guild.  I hated raiding, completely not fun for me.  But somehow its fine to attempt to force me into that style of play, which is different from the entire foundation of the pre-60 game, and then say I'm not a "core" player and don't deserve to be competitive.   That really makes no sense on any level.  You really have to tie your brain into serious knots convince yourself of tripe like that.  I mean Pardo essentially willfully violated the design themes of the rest of the game just to make raiding pre-eminent.  He must know it on some level.  You can't have come up with the ideas behind the pacing of WoW and not realize that the endgame design ideas are contradictory.  But raiding is a cult.  And even smart people will do what they gotta do to justify it, even if it involves a willful virtual lobotomy of double-think.



  • theratmonkeytheratmonkey Member Posts: 684

    Okay, you people do realise that China is the largest continent in the world, right?

    And along with that, it is known for having a large overpopulation problem.

    So, it doesn't suprise me that China has the most players on Wow. They could have half their people on Wow, and still have more than enough to fill up every house in the united states.

    People leave games all of the time. Just because people are leaving now, doesn't mean it's the end of the game. WoW is only around 2 years old, so it's still in the process of balancing out its player base.

    But I think it's stupid to leave around NOW, because the game is coming out with an expansion, which will boost the lvl cap up to 70.

    And with that, there will be a bunch of changes in end-game content.

    So to me, it's like saying you're just going to quit the game and not even give the new content a shot, even if the changes are for the better.

     

    Thats what I think though.

    Groovy.

  • NadrilNadril Member Posts: 1,276

    Originally posted by theratmonkey
    Okay, you people do realise that China is the largest continent in the world, right? And along with that, it is known for having a large overpopulation problem. So, it doesn't suprise me that China has the most players on Wow. They could have half their people on Wow, and still have more than enough to fill up every house in the united states. People leave games all of the time. Just because people are leaving now, doesn't mean it's the end of the game. WoW is only around 2 years old, so it's still in the process of balancing out its player base. But I think it's stupid to leave around NOW, because the game is coming out with an expansion, which will boost the lvl cap up to 70. And with that, there will be a bunch of changes in end-game content. So to me, it's like saying you're just going to quit the game and not even give the new content a shot, even if the changes are for the better.   Thats what I think though.
    Exactly.

    Also, correct me if i'm wrong, but I belive that most of the BC raid instances are around the 15-20 man mark, instead of 40? They are trying to ballance out the issue with raiding in the large raids.


  • IcoGamesIcoGames Member Posts: 2,360

    Blizzard added an entire zone, Silithus, to accomdate questers at level 60. Innstances were adjusted for 5-15 man raids, and TBC will instroduce more of the same. With the recent patch, I'd argue players can now obtain better gear faster PvP'ing than they can crawling through instances.

    Imo, Blizzard is doing a fine job of balancing the various play styles.

    As for declining numbers ... even with 2 million in the USA alone, WoW out paces the rest of the industry. I'm sure subscription rates will increase slighty after the expansion is released.

    Having said that, I could care less about subscription rates as a player. I play an mmo as long as I enjoy the game (and that's the way it should be). Hell ... I know plenty of folks that still enjoy SWG. : )

    Linuxgamer, I'm not sure if someone at Blizzard pissed in your cheerios or what, but recently you seem a bit jaded. Take it easy man, it's only a game.

    Ico
    Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.


  • Originally posted by theratmonkey
    Okay, you people do realise that China is the largest continent in the world, right? And along with that, it is known for having a large overpopulation problem. So, it doesn't suprise me that China has the most players on Wow. They could have half their people on Wow, and still have more than enough to fill up every house in the united states. People leave games all of the time. Just because people are leaving now, doesn't mean it's the end of the game. WoW is only around 2 years old, so it's still in the process of balancing out its player base. But I think it's stupid to leave around NOW, because the game is coming out with an expansion, which will boost the lvl cap up to 70. And with that, there will be a bunch of changes in end-game content. So to me, it's like saying you're just going to quit the game and not even give the new content a shot, even if the changes are for the better.   Thats what I think though.
    China isn't a continent.  It is a country.  It is also not the largest country, it is the 4th largest country.  It is the most populace country in the world though.


  • FigmentImageFigmentImage Member Posts: 1

    Well, I'm not even a WoW player, and never have been.  But I do know one thing...  Blizzard is in league with darker powers, dare I say the darkest.

    The proof?  They didn't even RELEASE a game this year, yet they are still winning awards and ranking among the highest grossing publishers in the world.

    That, and somehow a gameset I paid $20 for 5 years ago (Diablo II Battlechest) now retails steadily at $40, and is still selling.

    And yeah... WoWCCG.  A CCG based on an MMO.  Granted, CoH and EVE pulled this move first, but when you cannot find a big-run CCG at your friendly local gaming store because it has SOLD OUT EVERYWHERE... Satan has got to be on their board of directors, it's just that simple.  Nothing in the history of "Geek Culture" has been THAT popular.

            image

    imageimageimageimage

  • linuxgamerlinuxgamer Member Posts: 126

    Originally posted by IcoGames

    Linuxgamer, I'm not sure if someone at Blizzard pissed in your cheerios or what, but recently you seem a bit jaded. Take it easy man, it's only a game.

    WoW was great pre-60, I just dont like the direction that they are going. Some people do, some don't. Not much I can do about it as I am not a dev. I can only speak with my $15 a month by canceling, which I have.


  • A1D3NA1D3N Member UncommonPosts: 276

    wat put me off wow is that its hard to work out lol, not as simple as games like Lineage2 and LegendOfMIR2,

    i like it basic and fun!

    Currently Playing:
    ...... :(

  • Dream-ReaverDream-Reaver Member Posts: 2

    OMG there`s nothing to discuss here. U know WoW > all mmorpgs all together and u know why? `Cause it`s perfect. I`ve been playing WoW since Dec2004 and i still find things to do so pls don`t cry here about poor content, boring game at lvl60 and etc. That`s total BS. If u can`t find things to do then u`re either blind or lazy. And stop telling stories about massive exodus from WoW, millions of chinese playersfarmers and etc. BS! If u have problems with playing WoW then OMG u need to quit playing mmorpgs. Dot.

  • Dream-ReaverDream-Reaver Member Posts: 2



    Originally posted by Aiden

    wat put me off wow is that its hard to work out lol, not as simple as games like Lineage2 and LegendOfMIR2,
    i like it basic and fun!



    Hard? Lol. U must be joiking right? Give WoW 10 mins and u`ll understand like everything.
  • MatchuMatchu Member UncommonPosts: 24

    Well for me there are a couple of points:

    1. The game pre-raid is very different, with different play requirements etc. Which it is fair to say that some will enjoy the raiding as opposed to the quest/exploration/grind pre 60. So on transition to the "raiding game" where will be attrition in the player base.

    2. People who do "convert" to the level 60 raiding aspect of the game, were more or less happy (imo based on the 100+ player guild I was in). When TBC was announced the majority were excited, and the reality is that the average Wow gamer had little visibility of this coming or the implications. Thus with the original release expected pre xmas, most guilds (at least on my server) carried on raiding etc as before. HOWEVER !!! As soon as TBC was delayed post xmas, this lead to a couple of major factors (a) People were disgruntled at the delay.. at the end of the day if someone offers to buy you a pint in the pub, then say, nah, I buy it tomorrow, you'd be less than impressed. (b) The implications of TBC started to kick it ie current gear will be outmoded in TBC at higher level, and Guild sizes will need to be reduced.

    The result of 2. is that on my server alomost ALL Guilds have disbanded. This has resulted in many people leaving the game as there is little to do with no raids, especially if you do not like, what is generally a  poor Pvp experience. Further, those that are "taking a break" till TBC may well not return as other games will be played in the mean time (and maybe IRL), thus coming back may not appeal in a months time.

    To that end I really think the issue on subscribers is entirely Blizzards fault for the delay and the inability of the game to "fill the gap" till the exxpansion arrives.

    As for the point made on size of raid groups etc, I kinda agree, I'd prefer smaller i.e. 5-10 man, as its more personal and controllable, and also more sociable.. Trying to "communicate" with 39 others is not really possible. However, by moving away from 40 man raids is an improvement at least image The question remains will those that have waited for the expansion be happy, and will it draw in those that have left in the last couple of months....

  • That's why I don't pay attention to that 7 mill subscriber flag that they wave. Only 1 mill of that are European and U.S. players who seem to not stay very long at all. It's a revolving door. They gain as many as they loose on the non-chinese side because of the hype and there's nothing else to play.

    I agree that the new games coming out (although not really THAT good) will lower the 1 mil user number, I doubt most of them will go back to WOW, instead, just settle for the new game.

    Then it will be just another asian mmo with 6 mill subscribers just like the rest of the asian games.

  • LaneoLaneo Member Posts: 359

    Originally posted by linuxgamer
    WoW could have kept me and others as subscribers, if they had devoted more content that was similar to 1-60. WoW was fun and great 1-60. Had they added more quests similar to those in 1-60, I and many others would still be customers.

    However, post 60 they decided that the future players should be stuck in instanced PvP and Raid grinds. Taking a look at Guild Wars, it makes me wonder if the competant devs left WoW for GW.

    WoW only has around 2 million players in the USA, many of whom have quit playing. The mass of their player base comes from china. If you don't already know, customers in China have multiple accounts per person because they start losing in-game items if they play too long, per the Blizzard deal with their government. So this whole 7 million players is quite a bloated number. I know of entire guilds and many other who have quit because we are tired of Blizzard not listening to it's customers.

    MMOGchart states:
    including over 1 million in Europe and somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million in North America, with most of the remainder in China

    Agree here....thats why Burning Crusade will FAIL..... "SSDS"  (Same S**t, Different Skin)


    Nobody is perfect...My name is Nobody

  • metalcoremetalcore Member Posts: 798

    Let it go guys, its just a game, denying they have 7 million subscribers is really hurting you, at the end of the day, just move on, dont dwell in the pain.

    Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
    Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve

  • ThorhallThorhall Member Posts: 20
    This thread is very funny. You people whine and whine about having nothing to do in WoW after 60? Perhaps it's cus you "played" the damn game "too" much? Ever think of not logging on for a few days, taking a break and doing something else? Well duh, you keep doing the same thing over and over and over again, no matter what it is, you'll eventually get bored of it.



     WoW is a game, meant for fun, but seriously, how many people make WoW a job? It's mostly the people that whine, are the ones that make WoW a job, and not a game like it's supposed to be.  Guess what, after they leave WoW for a new game, same thing will happen, and again they'll go to another game, complain there's nothing left to do, and the cycle never ends.



    WoW caters to the casual players, therefore, the whiners are always the hardcore people who play the game way to much, therefore, they'll be the first to whine about having nothing to do. The casual player will log on for a few hours and log and maybe log on 2 or 3 days later, keeping the game fresh and enjoyable. The hardcore logs on every day, playing every minute they can till they are force to go to work or sleep.  See a cycle?
  • CaptainRPGCaptainRPG Member Posts: 794
    Originally posted by linuxgamer

    WoW could have kept me and others as subscribers, if they had devoted more content that was similar to 1-60. WoW was fun and great 1-60. Had they added more quests similar to those in 1-60, I and many others would still be customers.



    However, post 60 they decided that the future players should be stuck in instanced PvP and Raid grinds. Taking a look at Guild Wars, it makes me wonder if the competant devs left WoW for GW.



    WoW only has around 2 million players in the USA, many of whom have quit playing. The mass of their player base comes from china. If you don't already know, customers in China have multiple accounts per person because they start losing in-game items if they play too long, per the Blizzard deal with their government. So this whole 7 million players is quite a bloated number. I know of entire guilds and many other who have quit because we are tired of Blizzard not listening to it's customers.



    MMOGchart states:

    including over 1 million in Europe and somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million in North America, with most of the remainder in China

    Americans aren't big RPGs. We are big on Superhero more so than RPGs.
  • Bama1267Bama1267 Member UncommonPosts: 1,848
    Originally posted by linuxgamer

    WoW could have kept me and others as subscribers, if they had devoted more content that was similar to 1-60. WoW was fun and great 1-60. Had they added more quests similar to those in 1-60, I and many others would still be customers.



    However, post 60 they decided that the future players should be stuck in instanced PvP and Raid grinds. Taking a look at Guild Wars, it makes me wonder if the competant devs left WoW for GW.



    WoW only has around 2 million players in the USA, many of whom have quit playing. The mass of their player base comes from china. If you don't already know, customers in China have multiple accounts per person because they start losing in-game items if they play too long, per the Blizzard deal with their government. So this whole 7 million players is quite a bloated number. I know of entire guilds and many other who have quit because we are tired of Blizzard not listening to it's customers.



    MMOGchart states:

    including over 1 million in Europe and somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million in North America, with most of the remainder in China

     Sooo....whats the problem? In Europe they have more than 99% of all mmorpgs out there as far as customers and also in the US they have more than 99% of all mmorpgs. I  fail to see the bloated numbers. Even with all the farmers and players from asia...they still have 2.5 - 3 million in places other than those according to MMOGchart? Heh, I dont see anything wrong with that.

    Other than that , you reasons for quitting are valid. However to think only farmers are making up the vast majority is not only nieve it is ignorant.  Still cant believe after what, 2+ years ...people have gone from saying " they dont have that many players " to actually making up excuses and fabrications to why they DO have that many customers and continue to grow. Its quite ammusing at this point.

  • Imgreat747Imgreat747 Member Posts: 3
    Why is there so much arguement about WoW, can people just not accept that a lot of us enjoy playing the game even after 60. You don't like WoW okay then. Your not forced to play it. So how about instead of complaining about a game you don't even play, why don't you just go and try to improve a game that you do play.
  • FinduilasFinduilas Member Posts: 377
    Originally posted by metalcore


    Let it go guys, its just a game, denying they have 7 million subscribers is really hurting you, at the end of the day, just move on, dont dwell in the pain.
    In this press release Blizzard states that they have 7.5 million subscribers.



    November 9, 2006


    The Burning Crusade Release Date Announced!

    World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade will be in stores on January 16th, 2007 in Europe and North America! The news comes as the player base reaches 7.5 million players worldwide.




    http://www.blizzard.co.uk/



    However that number does not tell the whole story. It is company spin to drum up business, accurate but misleading.



    According to several sources 5.9 million of those subs are in China:



    "China is believed to have more Warcraft players than any other nation, at almost six million registered accounts and as many as 660,000 playing simultaneously."



    http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2169162/warcraft-profits-fall-China



    That leaves 1.6 million for ALL the rest of the world.



    1 million in th EU? 1.5-2m in the US? that comes to 2.5-3 million: just a bit of an exaggeration. In fact, how many of the 1.6m play in Korea, Taiwan, and other far east countries?



    There could be less than 1 million in the US and EU combined, perhaps FAR less, though that is pure speculation. 500k in the US, 500k in the EU is STILL a decent number, but nowhere near as earth shattering as that 7.5 mil figure many people use to prove the continuing success of  WoW.



    Another issue to consider is the profit margins of these markets. 7.5 mil x $15 would be HUGE. But that's just not the case. Those 5.9 million Chinese players pay FAR less than $15 per mth.



    "Jun Zhu, chairman and chief executive at The9, told analysts last week that Chinese Warcraft enthusiasts paid a total of $29.1m to play over the past three months, a fall of 10 per cent from $32m in the previous quarter."



    http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2169162/warcraft-profits-fall-China



    Apart from the obvious point, the 10% drop, do the math: Each Chinese subscriber is paying, on average, $1.7/mth, and Blizzard only sees a maximum of 22% of that, meaning just 37 cents, aprox. per month, per subscriber, from the bulk of it's player base. At one stage Blizzard boldly announced that 1 million played in the US, later: 1 million in th EU. Those numbers have obviously declined dramatically, BUT it now seems even their heartland, China, where they have had the most success, has started to decline.



    No doubt WoW has been a massive success, and has outsripped ALL previous MMOs, especially those made outside Asia, but it is NOT the current success some people claim it to be; it's decline is evident, even if the reasons for THAT decline are less so.
  • CaptainRPGCaptainRPG Member Posts: 794
    Dude, no game last forever. You still fail to see that WoW is a success even if it's American and European subscribers aren't hanging on anymore. Yes, it will die, but not for the next 3 to 5 years. I doubt it'll last 10, but it will have a long run before it ends.
  • jsw40jsw40 Member Posts: 214
    I stopped playing once I realized the more I played, the more similar the quests became and the more grind-oriented the entire game is.



    Not to mention PvP in it is probably the worst I've seen in any game.



    Oh, and to top it all off TBC killed any interest for me to play. WoW is great for those with numb-minds and tons of time, but for those who enjoy more rewarding, fun and innovative games WoW isn't the place to be.
  • narvanarva Member Posts: 37
    Originally posted by theratmonkey


    Okay, you people do realise that China is the largest continent in the world, right?
    And along with that, it is known for having a large overpopulation problem.
    So, it doesn't suprise me that China has the most players on Wow. They could have half their people on Wow, and still have more than enough to fill up every house in the united states.
    People leave games all of the time. Just because people are leaving now, doesn't mean it's the end of the game. WoW is only around 2 years old, so it's still in the process of balancing out its player base.
    But I think it's stupid to leave around NOW, because the game is coming out with an expansion, which will boost the lvl cap up to 70.
    And with that, there will be a bunch of changes in end-game content.
    So to me, it's like saying you're just going to quit the game and not even give the new content a shot, even if the changes are for the better.
     
    Thats what I think though.

    (some reposting) My point of view.....

    On one hand you have Bliz that reassure that they have switch their focus from raid or die to support more gamestyles then just raid. On the other hand you have the same people for the last 2 years refusing to acknowledge there even existed a content problem for non raiders.

    During many of the heated debates on their forums they justified numerous times them spending almost 100% of the design focus  on new raid content with the absurb statement the non raiders had more content then raiders. You know non raiders had Maraudon, brd. dire Maul was counted 4 times for each of its wings and so on.

    So take a look a BC, has things improved for a non raider? While there are several 5-man dungeouns, most if not all are leveling dungeouns, just like Maradoun, brd, Dire Maul ect Take a look at the end game dungeouns, a 10 man and numerous 25 mans. So has things really changed that much? It doesnt seem like it to me.

    Now they have added difficulty levels on the 5 mans so the "casual" content is to go back to these dungeons and run them again, now against mobs that have more hit points and that hit you harder. Go and take a look at the beta forums and see what people say about the rewards for running on elite mode. So again it seems like re running "old" content will be the end game content for non raiders, sounds familiar?

    and if you think the average Joe will be able to compete in the pvp ladder system for raid equivalent loot, you will be surely dissapointed I'm afraid.

    For me the best time in this game is Level 1-20ish why you might ask?

    The game is about character progression, you progress either by leveling up or by new equipment.  Especially in the first 20ish levels or so you can advance you character by getting item upgrades from grind, solo, duo, doing instances, quests, pvp, raid and by trade skill. You have several choices, multiply avenues are open for you. Once you reach L60 its just raid or in some cases extreme grind.

    Again to me it doesnt really look like anything has changed in BC and as long as there is no serious competition out there things wont really change either I'm afraid.

    Also I want to comment about the subs in China. Does it matter if the majority of WOWs playerbase are in China? Yes it does by the very fact that they are NOT paying as much as "we" Americans.  So keeping the American and European markets happy are important. It is not as easy as I'm leaving and getting replaced by 1 person in china, more like they need 3 or possible 4 to replace me.

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