"why not give the gear bonuses in other areas besides damage and attack speed. If all weapons did the same damage at the end game and hit for basically the same DPS overall it may allow fights to go on longer and allow players to reach into a different bag of tricks for PvP. Make epic weapons give players a bonus to other areas. Boost strength or stamina a little more, I can even see boosting the crit-strike chance."
Okay, and when we're done taking away all the damage a melee class can do let's let all those mages and locks, with +750-900 spelldamage crit your for 4k damage anyways.The problem is not balance, and if you've been talking to people in expansion beta the stats at 70 are RIDICULOUS compared to now, according to my friend in beta the game is no longer about burst damage, every fight takes time AND skill, and even with an unbalanced playing field, hell the lvl 61 greens in tbc are more powerful than most MC epics. What's to say epics in TBC won't be as unbalanced as now, also with scaling raid difficulties virtually anyone can get together a 25 man and at least do the easier versions of raids to gear up. 25 man raids will be alot easier to set up than 40 mans for most guilds and most likely guilds will be running 2 simulataneous raid if they have 50 online.
yes they are taking out DKs, they figured it was stupid to make civilians (which it was).
also, the blues and greens in the expansion will make your lvl 60 epics look like trash. but what about the lvl 70 epics? basically with the info that fan sites have released from beta says that they are capped at 67 right now which leads me to believe that they havent started raiding.
so the only thing that these uber blues tells us is that they are leveling the playing field for those that didnt spend 10000000000 hrs getting geared out. it doesnt say a thing that it wont happen again at 70. there have been absolutely no garuntees that a hard mode guild wont just melt your face in pvp. absolutely no evidence that shows that the pvp gear is comparable to anything raided for. so basically unless blizzard changed in the past 2 yrs you will have about 3 to 4 months of good pvp b4 you get the uber leet guild melting your face. which isnt fun, and why would raiding gear ever be better than the pvp gear for pvp? doesnt make a bit of sense to me.
Last I checked "uber raiding guilds" don't leave Naxx, to pvp. They pvp on their own, but you will very rarely if ever see an entire t3'd team. Bottom line is if you don't have the time to put forward to get good gear through raiding, then your character isn't as good as someone elses. Imagine there wasn't a level cap like other games instead of spending months farming gear, they'd just be spending months grinding level can you blame a lvl 80 for beating the crap out you at lvl 50? Gear has "ITEMLEVELS" In my opinion that means it raises your level a little bit. Yes the game is literally capped at 60 at this point but there are Ilvl items of 80+ quality, implying that yes these things are good, how would someone be able to justify playing end game if they get facemelted in pvp by someone whose never even raided, itemization is a necisary part of the game. If you don't have the time to do end game don't do it. Just quit, and quit whining. Blizzard wants to keep as many customers as it can but it wants to keep it's hardcore playerbase the most because they are the most likely to buy the expansion and keep playing into the new content, also the whole argument of only .7% of players raiding or w/e That probably includes lvl 1-59, and alts that never set foot in a raid instance. Imagine the number of accounts that have at least one 60 that has been in a raid instance, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone with a 60 who hasn't raided, at least a few times. At one point I had about 6 of my friends all playing WoW, 1 quit at 49, 4 went on to raid MC and BWL before quitting for college and 1 went pvp only in organized groups; and I'm currently working on AQ40 with my guild. Therefore out of 7 friends 5 made it to 60 and started raiding, 1 didn't make it to 60 and 1 refused to raid, because it was time consuiming and he didn't enjoy it.
Therefore even though it is a small census one would assume the numbers at 60 are very directly in favour of raiding. in my opinion; if I could take out someone who spent months working on pve, with my greens and blues I would be pissed at the game itself. In the expansion one can grind their own gear through pvp and pvp gear has always at least closely scaled with pve gear, in alot of cases better than all but the very best pve gear. This game isn't a single player game if you want to PVP effectively you need an organized group, pugs don't work, and if you want to PVE effectively you obviously need a guild worthy of the instance you want to do. As much as you bitch and complain this is an MMO, just cause you think it's a waste of time to lock yourself in a room and farm gear so you can be better than the next schmoe doesn't mean everyone doesn't enjoy raiding.
I love raiding, I enjoy the teamwork I enjoy progression through end game, and I especially enjoy getting a new piece of phat lewt and pwning some noob in the face with it. Like any other MMO it takes effort to get to the top and if you can't cut it that's your fault.
alright.... last time i checked pvp stood for player vs player.... not player vs gear. if im going to face melt/ wtfpwn ppl..... i want to know that i did it bc im a better player, not bc i have no life and can invest 4+hrs 7 days a week.
that a game requires you to grind endless amounts of npc to be good in pvp is crazy, pvp gear should be equivalent in stats to the end game stuff, and better for pvp (ie more sta)
I'm so damn sick and tired of hardcores saying they're the ones who will stick with a game and buy all of the expansions. If one MMO would just have the balls to actually cater to casuals, they would see we are just as loyal as any "living in mom's basment" freak.
The only thing necessary in these games is the entertainment value. All of these ridiculous arguments about "work" and "earning" your place in a game is a crock. You want to make a difference in the world, get a job or be a volunteer for the homeless, but don't turn these games into a job and that's exactly what raiding does.
You hardcores have no more right to a game than anyone else. You are not entitled to have it play your way. We pay a monthly subscription fee too and we have a right to be catered to as well. So screw your "hardcores deserve the best" crap. Get out of your mom's basement and get a life.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by Vrazule You hardcores have no more right to a game than anyone else. You are not entitled to have it play your way. We pay a monthly subscription fee too and we have a right to be catered to as well. So screw your "hardcores deserve the best" crap. Get out of your mom's basement and get a life.
So you're saying that Blizzard should give you items for free? If you want to have the same items as every other player play an FPS like CS:S. WoW is about being prepared. Engineering is prep for pvp, gear is prep for pvp, if I was stuck at 60 without gear upgrades what would be the point of playing? To pvp with no advancement of gear? Getting gear through any means; pvp, pve w/e has a sense of accomplishment with it. Oh and with the new honour system pvping on a casual schedule is viable for getting gear, as well as the fact that by updating the pvp gear in patch 1.11, or 1.12(don't remember) they obviously want to keep the pvp gear at least competitive with the pve gear. It's not like Blizz is saying Raid or don't pvp, Blizz is saying if you raid and pvp you'll do well, but that's hard so if you just pvp you'll still do decently. Even for a casual player it's only gunna take like a month to farm the stuff for a HWL weapon. And I'm sure just as there is T4 and T5 in pve there will be an updated pvp set for 70 I'm sure. And my final point; Why should someone who has a life and spends it doing something other than WoW be catered to specifically in WoW? Should Blizz give bonuses to people who donate money to the red cross? What are you freaking thinking? It's a video game for entertainment, if you don't put effort into it your character will suck, that's what MMO implies, it's "COMPETITIVE" Therefore there has to be a way to advance beyond the other players you are competing against, if you want pvp balanced entirely around skill I've heard GuildWars is the game for you. All of you claiming that you should do just as well in pvp as hardcores just have a severe case of jealousy for the guy who always pwns you in his T2/equivelants and his ass'kandy or whatever else.
oh and BTW Teamwork > gear. Get vent -> Get a group of friends who know how to play -> Get some BG strats through your heads, and healers -> Pwn whoever you want -> Quit complaining that your character sucks cause you don't know how to play.
P.S. T0.5 was directly aimed at casual players, so it's not like Blizz is shunning you noobs alot of the T0.5 gear was pretty good.
Ok i am not bashing wow i'll throw that out there first, i play as well from time to time, there are a few things that make casual gamers love wow and a lot of die hard gamers hate it and like it
1 It is sucessful because of the neame true, it is also sucessful because it caters to the masses, it is simple to learn, its graphics are not over the top they are console lvl making it acessible to those with low end computers and the familiarity of console graphics look, And these are the same reason a lot of hardcore gamers hate wow, compared to looks with other games it is ''lame'' it is ''cartoony'' , the chars customization is nill, there is no real challenge in the end, why raid here when i can raid something that looks very nice and is a bit more challenging,
I am sure to get flamed, i was just trying to bring a dble perspective as why some people like wow and some people dont.
I like it, yes, i like it because a lot of people i know that play it in r/l i tag up with them as they dont have the expenses to get a nice gaming rig to run some of the more detailed games.
I personally find that no other mmorpg has a control style I can deal with. Alot of the other mmo's have better graphics, as far as realism, but that's no good to me if the screen doesn't turn right r the character's actions are unresponsive. The controls in world of Warcraft are my favorite aspect. Also I've yet to run out of content to be as just as my guild was getting finished BWL and started AQ40 Naxx came out, and in 2 months the expansion is coming along with 5 or 6 good new raiding instances. I've heard Guildwars is as good as WoW but I don't like the idea of entirely instanced areas other than cities. I like meeting random people and helping them out with quests or finding some good pvp in the middle of lvl grinding. I have tried MAAANY different mmo's and none of them offered what I wanted. Losing too much stuff on a death really ticked me off on a lot of games, with WoW it's 10% durability and a bit of a walk. Cept for pvp with is free of course.
Originally posted by Vrazule You hardcores have no more right to a game than anyone else. You are not entitled to have it play your way. We pay a monthly subscription fee too and we have a right to be catered to as well. So screw your "hardcores deserve the best" crap. Get out of your mom's basement and get a life.
So you're saying that Blizzard should give you items for free? If you want to have the same items as every other player play an FPS like CS:S. WoW is about being prepared. Engineering is prep for pvp, gear is prep for pvp, if I was stuck at 60 without gear upgrades what would be the point of playing? To pvp with no advancement of gear? Getting gear through any means; pvp, pve w/e has a sense of accomplishment with it. Oh and with the new honour system pvping on a casual schedule is viable for getting gear, as well as the fact that by updating the pvp gear in patch 1.11, or 1.12(don't remember) they obviously want to keep the pvp gear at least competitive with the pve gear. It's not like Blizz is saying Raid or don't pvp, Blizz is saying if you raid and pvp you'll do well, but that's hard so if you just pvp you'll still do decently. Even for a casual player it's only gunna take like a month to farm the stuff for a HWL weapon. And I'm sure just as there is T4 and T5 in pve there will be an updated pvp set for 70 I'm sure. And my final point; Why should someone who has a life and spends it doing something other than WoW be catered to specifically in WoW? Should Blizz give bonuses to people who donate money to the red cross? What are you freaking thinking? It's a video game for entertainment, if you don't put effort into it your character will suck, that's what MMO implies, it's "COMPETITIVE" Therefore there has to be a way to advance beyond the other players you are competing against, if you want pvp balanced entirely around skill I've heard GuildWars is the game for you. All of you claiming that you should do just as well in pvp as hardcores just have a severe case of jealousy for the guy who always pwns you in his T2/equivelants and his ass'kandy or whatever else.
oh and BTW Teamwork > gear. Get vent -> Get a group of friends who know how to play -> Get some BG strats through your heads, and healers -> Pwn whoever you want -> Quit complaining that your character sucks cause you don't know how to play.
P.S. T0.5 was directly aimed at casual players, so it's not like Blizz is shunning you noobs alot of the T0.5 gear was pretty good.
Where in the hell do you get the idea casusals want loot for free. This is the most idiotic argument you hardcores always come up with. Its baseless innuendo. You can't stand the idea of anyone but hardcores getting the good loot. Makes you feel elite I suppose, kind of sad when you consider this is a game and none of this crap means a damn thing in the real world. Accomplishments don't mean crap in a game either. You want a real sense of accomplishment, get off your ass, get outside and do something worthwhile, but don't you dare spout off this work ethic crap for a stupid game. Its this exact kind of mentality that earns you the label of geek and freak. Its also why these games will never and I mean never appeal to mainstream unless they change this ridiculous attitude.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
To make WOw more fun and to give new looks to old things let alh make dyes for armor and stuff so we can customize the look. It would be funny to see what peeps would change into. A all pink set or mix and match but would give peeps a new look to what they have and have fun with it. Just a thought a simple solution to make peeps look diffrent.
Originally posted by VrazuleWhere in the hell do you get the idea casusals want loot for free. This is the most idiotic argument you hardcores always come up with. Its baseless innuendo. You can't stand the idea of anyone but hardcores getting the good loot. Makes you feel elite I suppose, kind of sad when you consider this is a game and none of this crap means a damn thing in the real world. Accomplishments don't mean crap in a game either. You want a real sense of accomplishment, get off your ass, get outside and do something worthwhile, but don't you dare spout off this work ethic crap for a stupid game. Its this exact kind of mentality that earns you the label of geek and freak. Its also why these games will never and I mean never appeal to mainstream unless they change this ridiculous attitude.
I hardly consider 7.5 MILLION ACTIVE accounts world wide as not main stream. If all gear could be attained in a casual time frame it would no longer be unique. You know how multiplayer games work? Competition. You know how to screw over a competition? Make it completely balanced. Why would I want to go to Naxx if farming UBRS gets me equivelant loot? Face it if you want good gear, you have to work for it. Whining that it's too hard or that your life is more important is not logical. If your RL is more important to you than raiding and getting the gear you so crave, then quit. Obviously this game is infringeing on your real life, and needs to go. Now for me and the rest of the "hardcores" which is a BS title, as I only raid 2-3 nights a week for 3 hours at a time, we'll keep raiding and getting our epics and melting face in pvp.
Just find a casual guild. Not all guilds require 75% raid attendance to push through high end PVE. As far as pure hardcores there are about 10 in my guild, then about 60 casual who raid most nights a week and about another 25-30 who raid less than 3 times a week and in 6 months we've pushed from ZG to Battleguard Sartura in AQ40. Raiding doesn't require giving up your life, it just takes a group of like minded players.
I don't play this game anymore, I quit months ago. Secondly, I'm not interested in what you hardcores want. You've been getting it your way for a very long time. Its time for dev companies to get off their collective asses and come up with games that are fun and reward other play styles than those who raid or prefer to sit in front of their computers 8 hours straight. 7.5 million is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the sheer millions that play yahoo and msn games and the other countless millions who don't play computer games at all, but could be enticed to do so. The potential is phenomenal and yet they continue to do things the same way ever frigging game that comes out in the MMO market.
Can anyone tell me how many of those 7.5 million are happy with the end game in WoW? Wasn't there some number floating around that only 20% of all players actually raid which was stated during some Blizzard roundtable? If those numbers are true, how do you justify the current state of the game? How many of those 20% raid because they think its fun versus those who do it because there is nothing else to do? Why should they focus so much attention on such a small portion of their player base and why should they get the best rewards in the game? Your hardcore play style is no more worthy of this specialized reward system over that of solo / small group / questing / crafting styles.
For some people, raiding isn't about time constraints, its about play style, its about being tired of the same old paradigms that are not only getting outdated and boring, but are unfair to a lot of players. So get off your high horse and realize that your play style isn't the only one worthy of the developer's attention nor is it the only one worthy of the best gear in the game.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
The devs obviously envision WoW as a game where you work hard for your items and gear, and therefore the game is based around working hard for gear to be competitive. What the devs decide to do hardly concerns someone who doesn't play and hasn't played for months, if you "don't care" then stfu.
Actually, it does concern me and others like me. For one, the game up to 55 does not require work, the work part only kicks in when raiding becomes the only venue for advancement. The game is casual for a good part of its life cycle. I don't care if they have raiding in the game, I only have issue with them rewarding only raiders with the best gear. Its unfair and it completely undermines the casual 1 - 55 game that came before it. I am still a potential customer and there is a good likelyhood, considering the other posts that mirror mine, that I'm not the only one who has taken issue with their current "raid or die" paradigm. So it would behoove Blizzard to change, and guess what, they are making changes in the upcoming expansion, almost expressly due to complainers such as myself. They are adding non-raiding activities to the endgame, but the changes aren't large enough to suit me since they still give the best rewards to raiders, so I will continue to voice my opinion as long as I desire to do so.
The fact of the matter is that voicing opinions on boards doesn't just affect WoW, it is read by others, even other developers and it can make an impression on them to make changes in the future for any MMO. Currently, online boards are the only viable method of getting our opinions heard, so you better get used to us hanging around and having our say.
If your only comeback is to tell others to STFU, then maybe you should remember what country this game resides in. As long as you're going to play a US game, you're going to have to deal with the voice of dissent. Its because of people like us that the genre moves forward and evolves, if people didn't complain about the "status quo" things would never change at all.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
So, Mr. Smartass tell me, as if I were Blizzard who deserves the best loot; the casual gamers that dedicate little time to the game? Or the people who work hard for it. Play basically any MMO and you'll realise getting better is directly related to working hard at it. In non-lvl capped MMOs it's a struggle as to who can level the highest the fastest. In pve based MMOs like WoW, you are rewarded with gear that you work for. Are you implying that naxx equivelant gear should be available from less than an hour 5 man instances? Cause that would make end game unique, you'd see every 60 of a class in tier 3s with the best gear available. It may be an e-peen stroke, but that's what working hard to get the best gear is about. It doesn't effect RL, and if everyone was rolling a hand of rag and a thunderfury they're no longer unique, I mean there's only one AQ epic mount per server; The reason? e-peen strokage.
There is nothing hard about Naxx or any of the other raiding instances, its all about time investment. If you want something hard, get a frickin job, smart ass. These are suppose to be entertainment software, not second jobs. The equalizer is the monthly fee. They have no right to charge casuals for content that only harcore's enjoy. Our play style is just as deserving of a meaningful reward system. You want to work for your gear, that's your business. I just want to be rewarded for the way I like to play the game. I pay 15 bucks a month, I expect to get equal representation, otherwise, set up elite servers that charge 39.99 a month so you can get your elite raiding gear and screw any other play style.
There's no point in arguing with you, you and your raiding buddies feel entitled and there's nothing any other player can say to change your egotisitcal beliefs. Lets just hope the developers will get smart and realize they can't make us second class players and get away with it. Either start treating us equally or start expecting more fallout as players get fed up with this elitists mentality that is so pervasive in MMOs today. As the industry matures, players will become less likely to accept being pissed on and move on to something else. The Golden Age of the MMO caste system will be their downfall if they don't straighten up their act. It has become so expensive to create and maintain these games anymore, they can't afford to be niche. They will have to appeal to a larger audience or investors will stop investing with such small returns.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
So we have another noob saying "GIVE ME STUFF FOR FREE BLIZZZZZZZ SO I CAN PWN THE PEOPLE WHO EARNED IT, AND DON'T HAVE TO EVEN ATTEMPT THE NEW CONTENT" new content -> keeps people playing making new content not = new rewards = make people stop playing new content = people who would be hardcore quitting for a different game. The $15 a month isn't FOR representation of play style, it's FOR server costs and developement. The tier .5 content patch was aimed entirely at casuals. The honour system patch is aimed directly at casuals. Stfu they can't do any more for you, without basically saying, "you've been a good subscriber here have some items, and stop bitchin'. Noob"
Wow, that must have hit a nerve. You sound like one of those spoiled brats who throws a tantrum because their mommy tells them to share their toys with a sibliing. I get the picture, you don't like to share, period. Its obvious that raiders get some kind of false sense of superiority with the current paradigm. You think your way of playing is the only one that is challenging and that its the only path worthy of the best equipment. I hate to break it to you, but there is nothing special about raiding, nor is there anything special about raiders. You invest the time, but you do not hold the market on skill. Well, we casuals also invest the time, maybe not in one sitting, but we will eventually spend as much time in game as you do and yet our play style will never have recourse to the good gear. You think that's fair, I don't and I'm not alone in that belief.
Thank God not everyone is as narrow minded as you are, although many of the dev companies seem to agree with your opinion currently, but they're learning that it isn't okay to alienate any segment of their player base. It may take a while, but eventually, you raiders will have to deal with the fact that you aren't God's gift to the MMO industry and that casuals / non-raiders are just as loyal and just as likely to spend money on expansions as long as we are being catered to. We outnumber you and sooner or later we will get the lion's share of the best content a game has to offer. Mark my words, your days as the MMO top dogs are numbered.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Tell me all about it when you've found this game that caters to casuals exclusively, I'll be sure to skip that one. The new honour system is designed to give you rewards. Faction grinding gets you items, that are quite decent. There are plenty of ways to get good gear but raiding has been expanded upon hugely and therefore the other methods of gearing up have been left behind. Crafting is now based on patterns attained from raiding. But the bottom line is 3/4 of end game IS through 40 man raids(soon to be 25 mans) so you arethe one that chooses to skip what 3/4 of end game is all about. You're missing out not me. Blizzard's destruction of macros and mods is making me quit Wow permanently
That's rich coming from a raider that states raids are hard and should be rewarded better than other play styles and yet is going to quit because Blizzard is removing tools that make raiding easier. Does that mean you don't think people should earn their gear, but macro's should? Or is that admitting that raiding isn't fun and it takes macros to give it some semblence of fun? This makes me wonder about the whole risk vs reward arguement that you people are always shoving down our throats.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Last I checked mods involved with raiding will still work. I'm quitting, not because this will make raiding harder, it will make playing more annoying in general. No mods will be able to activate abilities even with user input after the patch supposedly. That's probably even going to kill custom action bars and such. I _HATE_ the default UI. It's ugly clogged and just plain bad. The fact that I could customize my UI kept me playing WoW because UIs in other games of similar types suck just as bad. Also, just because I raid doesn't mean I'm a hardcore raider. When I did raid it was from 8:30 pm server to 10:30 server time. Usually 2-3 times a week. We had the numbers to raid even on a casual schedule. And we finished BWL within 6 months of starting on ZG. So if you're too much of a noob to get into a good guild, then it's your loss.
I take it you call anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion a noob. I don't join guilds because they suck. I don't need the politics and infighting that goes with it, especially in a raiding guild. I'm glad to see you know how annoying a game can be. Many of us "noobs" don't raid because we find it annoying. It has absolutely nothing to do with ability and has everything to do with a lack of desire to sit in front of a computer for 4 to 8 hours straight. There is just something deeply disturbing about people who are willing to sit their fat asses in front of a computer for that long and not get paid for it.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Like I said, find a _GOOD_ guild. My guild has been active for the past 9 months with 2 hour raids per night for the last 7 months and with very little e-drama, the unusual g-kick for someone apping a different guild, but that's about it. If casual players appear in such huge numbers, there shouldn't be much difficulty in finding a "casual" guild with your gameplay style in mind.
Your lack of reading comprehension is par for the course. Raiders have never shown any consideration for other points of view. Its always some spiel about how anyone can join a raiding guild, even casually....blah....blah....blah. Once again, we don't want to raid, we want our play style to be rewarded. We want the developers to realize that raiding is not and should not be the only avenue for loot progression. Not only is the game currently only raid friendly at the end game, even when the expansion comes out, non-raiders will still have virtually no avenue outside of raiding in order to get the best gear. Even the PvP gear is going to be substandard to raid gear. Pretty ridiculous for a game that says you can PvP without raiding or PvE and be just as competitive, which is patently false. We're sick and tired of developers fostering a caste system within a freaking game. Our time investment is just as valueable as any raider's.
Raiders and non-raiders risk absolutely nothing but time in these games. I don't care what kind of death penaly they put in a game, it all boils down to time. How can you possibly argue that a raider's time is more important than any other's?
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
It has nothing to do with a raider's time being more valueable per second per se, but the fact remains raiders invest a lot MORE time. Quantity for the same quality. They spend MORE time. Their time is no more valueable than yours but they invest a crap load more of it. Your argument simmered down is this: "I want lewts equivelant to that guy, even though he spent 20 days played raiding in the last month, where as I only spent an hour or 2 per day." The way the reward system works is this; you spend time in the game, you are generally rewarded for time spent. Therefore if you spend a small amount of time, you get less rewards. See how that works? it's called a balanced system of server gear progression. Those who work hardest for it and devote the most time get the best rewards first.
Comments
attack speed. If all weapons did the same damage at the end game and
hit for basically the same DPS overall it may allow fights to go on
longer and allow players to reach into a different bag of tricks for
PvP. Make epic weapons give players a bonus to other areas. Boost
strength or stamina a little more, I can even see boosting the
crit-strike chance."
Okay, and when we're done taking away all the damage a melee class can do let's let all those mages and locks, with +750-900 spelldamage crit your for 4k damage anyways.The problem is not balance, and if you've been talking to people in expansion beta the stats at 70 are RIDICULOUS compared to now, according to my friend in beta the game is no longer about burst damage, every fight takes time AND skill, and even with an unbalanced playing field, hell the lvl 61 greens in tbc are more powerful than most MC epics. What's to say epics in TBC won't be as unbalanced as now, also with scaling raid difficulties virtually anyone can get together a 25 man and at least do the easier versions of raids to gear up. 25 man raids will be alot easier to set up than 40 mans for most guilds and most likely guilds will be running 2 simulataneous raid if they have 50 online.
also, the blues and greens in the expansion will make your lvl 60 epics look like trash. but what about the lvl 70 epics? basically with the info that fan sites have released from beta says that they are capped at 67 right now which leads me to believe that they havent started raiding.
so the only thing that these uber blues tells us is that they are leveling the playing field for those that didnt spend 10000000000 hrs getting geared out. it doesnt say a thing that it wont happen again at 70. there have been absolutely no garuntees that a hard mode guild wont just melt your face in pvp. absolutely no evidence that shows that the pvp gear is comparable to anything raided for. so basically unless blizzard changed in the past 2 yrs you will have about 3 to 4 months of good pvp b4 you get the uber leet guild melting your face. which isnt fun, and why would raiding gear ever be better than the pvp gear for pvp? doesnt make a bit of sense to me.
Therefore even though it is a small census one would assume the numbers at 60 are very directly in favour of raiding.
in my opinion; if I could take out someone who spent months working on pve, with my greens and blues I would be pissed at the game itself. In the expansion one can grind their own gear through pvp and pvp gear has always at least closely scaled with pve gear, in alot of cases better than all but the very best pve gear. This game isn't a single player game if you want to PVP effectively you need an organized group, pugs don't work, and if you want to PVE effectively you obviously need a guild worthy of the instance you want to do. As much as you bitch and complain this is an MMO, just cause you think it's a waste of time to lock yourself in a room and farm gear so you can be better than the next schmoe doesn't mean everyone doesn't enjoy raiding.
I love raiding, I enjoy the teamwork I enjoy progression through end game, and I especially enjoy getting a new piece of phat lewt and pwning some noob in the face with it. Like any other MMO it takes effort to get to the top and if you can't cut it that's your fault.
that a game requires you to grind endless amounts of npc to be good in pvp is crazy, pvp gear should be equivalent in stats to the end game stuff, and better for pvp (ie more sta)
I'm so damn sick and tired of hardcores saying they're the ones who will stick with a game and buy all of the expansions. If one MMO would just have the balls to actually cater to casuals, they would see we are just as loyal as any "living in mom's basment" freak.
The only thing necessary in these games is the entertainment value. All of these ridiculous arguments about "work" and "earning" your place in a game is a crock. You want to make a difference in the world, get a job or be a volunteer for the homeless, but don't turn these games into a job and that's exactly what raiding does.
You hardcores have no more right to a game than anyone else. You are not entitled to have it play your way. We pay a monthly subscription fee too and we have a right to be catered to as well. So screw your "hardcores deserve the best" crap. Get out of your mom's basement and get a life.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
And my final point; Why should someone who has a life and spends it doing something other than WoW be catered to specifically in WoW? Should Blizz give bonuses to people who donate money to the red cross? What are you freaking thinking? It's a video game for entertainment, if you don't put effort into it your character will suck, that's what MMO implies, it's "COMPETITIVE" Therefore there has to be a way to advance beyond the other players you are competing against, if you want pvp balanced entirely around skill I've heard GuildWars is the game for you. All of you claiming that you should do just as well in pvp as hardcores just have a severe case of jealousy for the guy who always pwns you in his T2/equivelants and his ass'kandy or whatever else.
oh and BTW Teamwork > gear. Get vent -> Get a group of friends who know how to play -> Get some BG strats through your heads, and healers -> Pwn whoever you want -> Quit complaining that your character sucks cause you don't know how to play.
P.S. T0.5 was directly aimed at casual players, so it's not like Blizz is shunning you noobs alot of the T0.5 gear was pretty good.
Ok i am not bashing wow i'll throw that out there first, i play as well from time to time, there are a few things that make casual gamers love wow and a lot of die hard gamers hate it and like it
1 It is sucessful because of the neame true, it is also sucessful because it caters to the masses, it is simple to learn, its graphics are not over the top they are console lvl making it acessible to those with low end computers and the familiarity of console graphics look, And these are the same reason a lot of hardcore gamers hate wow, compared to looks with other games it is ''lame'' it is ''cartoony'' , the chars customization is nill, there is no real challenge in the end, why raid here when i can raid something that looks very nice and is a bit more challenging,
I am sure to get flamed, i was just trying to bring a dble perspective as why some people like wow and some people dont.
I like it, yes, i like it because a lot of people i know that play it in r/l i tag up with them as they dont have the expenses to get a nice gaming rig to run some of the more detailed games.
playing eq2 and two worlds
And my final point; Why should someone who has a life and spends it doing something other than WoW be catered to specifically in WoW? Should Blizz give bonuses to people who donate money to the red cross? What are you freaking thinking? It's a video game for entertainment, if you don't put effort into it your character will suck, that's what MMO implies, it's "COMPETITIVE" Therefore there has to be a way to advance beyond the other players you are competing against, if you want pvp balanced entirely around skill I've heard GuildWars is the game for you. All of you claiming that you should do just as well in pvp as hardcores just have a severe case of jealousy for the guy who always pwns you in his T2/equivelants and his ass'kandy or whatever else.
oh and BTW Teamwork > gear. Get vent -> Get a group of friends who know how to play -> Get some BG strats through your heads, and healers -> Pwn whoever you want -> Quit complaining that your character sucks cause you don't know how to play.
P.S. T0.5 was directly aimed at casual players, so it's not like Blizz is shunning you noobs alot of the T0.5 gear was pretty good.
Where in the hell do you get the idea casusals want loot for free. This is the most idiotic argument you hardcores always come up with. Its baseless innuendo. You can't stand the idea of anyone but hardcores getting the good loot. Makes you feel elite I suppose, kind of sad when you consider this is a game and none of this crap means a damn thing in the real world. Accomplishments don't mean crap in a game either. You want a real sense of accomplishment, get off your ass, get outside and do something worthwhile, but don't you dare spout off this work ethic crap for a stupid game. Its this exact kind of mentality that earns you the label of geek and freak. Its also why these games will never and I mean never appeal to mainstream unless they change this ridiculous attitude.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I hardly consider 7.5 MILLION ACTIVE accounts world wide as not main stream. If all gear could be attained in a casual time frame it would no longer be unique. You know how multiplayer games work? Competition. You know how to screw over a competition? Make it completely balanced. Why would I want to go to Naxx if farming UBRS gets me equivelant loot? Face it if you want good gear, you have to work for it. Whining that it's too hard or that your life is more important is not logical. If your RL is more important to you than raiding and getting the gear you so crave, then quit. Obviously this game is infringeing on your real life, and needs to go. Now for me and the rest of the "hardcores" which is a BS title, as I only raid 2-3 nights a week for 3 hours at a time, we'll keep raiding and getting our epics and melting face in pvp.
Just find a casual guild. Not all guilds require 75% raid attendance to push through high end PVE. As far as pure hardcores there are about 10 in my guild, then about 60 casual who raid most nights a week and about another 25-30 who raid less than 3 times a week and in 6 months we've pushed from ZG to Battleguard Sartura in AQ40. Raiding doesn't require giving up your life, it just takes a group of like minded players.
I don't play this game anymore, I quit months ago. Secondly, I'm not interested in what you hardcores want. You've been getting it your way for a very long time. Its time for dev companies to get off their collective asses and come up with games that are fun and reward other play styles than those who raid or prefer to sit in front of their computers 8 hours straight. 7.5 million is a mere drop in the bucket compared to the sheer millions that play yahoo and msn games and the other countless millions who don't play computer games at all, but could be enticed to do so. The potential is phenomenal and yet they continue to do things the same way ever frigging game that comes out in the MMO market.
Can anyone tell me how many of those 7.5 million are happy with the end game in WoW? Wasn't there some number floating around that only 20% of all players actually raid which was stated during some Blizzard roundtable? If those numbers are true, how do you justify the current state of the game? How many of those 20% raid because they think its fun versus those who do it because there is nothing else to do? Why should they focus so much attention on such a small portion of their player base and why should they get the best rewards in the game? Your hardcore play style is no more worthy of this specialized reward system over that of solo / small group / questing / crafting styles.
For some people, raiding isn't about time constraints, its about play style, its about being tired of the same old paradigms that are not only getting outdated and boring, but are unfair to a lot of players. So get off your high horse and realize that your play style isn't the only one worthy of the developer's attention nor is it the only one worthy of the best gear in the game.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
The devs obviously envision WoW as a game where you work hard for your items and gear, and therefore the game is based around working hard for gear to be competitive. What the devs decide to do hardly concerns someone who doesn't play and hasn't played for months, if you "don't care" then stfu.
Actually, it does concern me and others like me. For one, the game up to 55 does not require work, the work part only kicks in when raiding becomes the only venue for advancement. The game is casual for a good part of its life cycle. I don't care if they have raiding in the game, I only have issue with them rewarding only raiders with the best gear. Its unfair and it completely undermines the casual 1 - 55 game that came before it. I am still a potential customer and there is a good likelyhood, considering the other posts that mirror mine, that I'm not the only one who has taken issue with their current "raid or die" paradigm. So it would behoove Blizzard to change, and guess what, they are making changes in the upcoming expansion, almost expressly due to complainers such as myself. They are adding non-raiding activities to the endgame, but the changes aren't large enough to suit me since they still give the best rewards to raiders, so I will continue to voice my opinion as long as I desire to do so.
The fact of the matter is that voicing opinions on boards doesn't just affect WoW, it is read by others, even other developers and it can make an impression on them to make changes in the future for any MMO. Currently, online boards are the only viable method of getting our opinions heard, so you better get used to us hanging around and having our say.
If your only comeback is to tell others to STFU, then maybe you should remember what country this game resides in. As long as you're going to play a US game, you're going to have to deal with the voice of dissent. Its because of people like us that the genre moves forward and evolves, if people didn't complain about the "status quo" things would never change at all.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
There is nothing hard about Naxx or any of the other raiding instances, its all about time investment. If you want something hard, get a frickin job, smart ass. These are suppose to be entertainment software, not second jobs. The equalizer is the monthly fee. They have no right to charge casuals for content that only harcore's enjoy. Our play style is just as deserving of a meaningful reward system. You want to work for your gear, that's your business. I just want to be rewarded for the way I like to play the game. I pay 15 bucks a month, I expect to get equal representation, otherwise, set up elite servers that charge 39.99 a month so you can get your elite raiding gear and screw any other play style.
There's no point in arguing with you, you and your raiding buddies feel entitled and there's nothing any other player can say to change your egotisitcal beliefs. Lets just hope the developers will get smart and realize they can't make us second class players and get away with it. Either start treating us equally or start expecting more fallout as players get fed up with this elitists mentality that is so pervasive in MMOs today. As the industry matures, players will become less likely to accept being pissed on and move on to something else. The Golden Age of the MMO caste system will be their downfall if they don't straighten up their act. It has become so expensive to create and maintain these games anymore, they can't afford to be niche. They will have to appeal to a larger audience or investors will stop investing with such small returns.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Wow, that must have hit a nerve. You sound like one of those spoiled brats who throws a tantrum because their mommy tells them to share their toys with a sibliing. I get the picture, you don't like to share, period. Its obvious that raiders get some kind of false sense of superiority with the current paradigm. You think your way of playing is the only one that is challenging and that its the only path worthy of the best equipment. I hate to break it to you, but there is nothing special about raiding, nor is there anything special about raiders. You invest the time, but you do not hold the market on skill. Well, we casuals also invest the time, maybe not in one sitting, but we will eventually spend as much time in game as you do and yet our play style will never have recourse to the good gear. You think that's fair, I don't and I'm not alone in that belief.
Thank God not everyone is as narrow minded as you are, although many of the dev companies seem to agree with your opinion currently, but they're learning that it isn't okay to alienate any segment of their player base. It may take a while, but eventually, you raiders will have to deal with the fact that you aren't God's gift to the MMO industry and that casuals / non-raiders are just as loyal and just as likely to spend money on expansions as long as we are being catered to. We outnumber you and sooner or later we will get the lion's share of the best content a game has to offer. Mark my words, your days as the MMO top dogs are numbered.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Tell me all about it when you've found this game that caters to casuals exclusively, I'll be sure to skip that one. The new honour system is designed to give you rewards. Faction grinding gets you items, that are quite decent. There are plenty of ways to get good gear but raiding has been expanded upon hugely and therefore the other methods of gearing up have been left behind. Crafting is now based on patterns attained from raiding. But the bottom line is 3/4 of end game IS through 40 man raids(soon to be 25 mans) so you arethe one that chooses to skip what 3/4 of end game is all about. You're missing out not me. Blizzard's destruction of macros and mods is making me quit Wow permanently
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Last I checked mods involved with raiding will still work. I'm quitting, not because this will make raiding harder, it will make playing more annoying in general. No mods will be able to activate abilities even with user input after the patch supposedly. That's probably even going to kill custom action bars and such. I _HATE_ the default UI. It's ugly clogged and just plain bad. The fact that I could customize my UI kept me playing WoW because UIs in other games of similar types suck just as bad. Also, just because I raid doesn't mean I'm a hardcore raider. When I did raid it was from 8:30 pm server to 10:30 server time. Usually 2-3 times a week. We had the numbers to raid even on a casual schedule. And we finished BWL within 6 months of starting on ZG. So if you're too much of a noob to get into a good guild, then it's your loss.
I take it you call anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion a noob. I don't join guilds because they suck. I don't need the politics and infighting that goes with it, especially in a raiding guild. I'm glad to see you know how annoying a game can be. Many of us "noobs" don't raid because we find it annoying. It has absolutely nothing to do with ability and has everything to do with a lack of desire to sit in front of a computer for 4 to 8 hours straight. There is just something deeply disturbing about people who are willing to sit their fat asses in front of a computer for that long and not get paid for it.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Like I said, find a _GOOD_ guild. My guild has been active for the past 9 months with 2 hour raids per night for the last 7 months and with very little e-drama, the unusual g-kick for someone apping a different guild, but that's about it. If casual players appear in such huge numbers, there shouldn't be much difficulty in finding a "casual" guild with your gameplay style in mind.
Your lack of reading comprehension is par for the course. Raiders have never shown any consideration for other points of view. Its always some spiel about how anyone can join a raiding guild, even casually....blah....blah....blah. Once again, we don't want to raid, we want our play style to be rewarded. We want the developers to realize that raiding is not and should not be the only avenue for loot progression. Not only is the game currently only raid friendly at the end game, even when the expansion comes out, non-raiders will still have virtually no avenue outside of raiding in order to get the best gear. Even the PvP gear is going to be substandard to raid gear. Pretty ridiculous for a game that says you can PvP without raiding or PvE and be just as competitive, which is patently false. We're sick and tired of developers fostering a caste system within a freaking game. Our time investment is just as valueable as any raider's.
Raiders and non-raiders risk absolutely nothing but time in these games. I don't care what kind of death penaly they put in a game, it all boils down to time. How can you possibly argue that a raider's time is more important than any other's?
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal