The game is balanced with ALL gear into account. If you remove 20% of the items, you just completely screw the balance. The players will be weaker, and 80% is a lot. See, in a group it is EXPONENTIAL, with each player. So if 2 players are at 80%....80% X 80% = 64%...and it get worser with every addition. Except you wont perform at 80%...Cause the raid gear might only be 5% better then the best group gear..and lets say you can have 20 pieces of gear equipped. 20% of 20 items = 4 items that will be better for the raider. So the grouper will have 20 items at 100% efficiency and the raider will have 16 items at 100% and 4 at 105% ... grouper has 2000% total and the raider 2020% total and 2020/2000 = 1.01 so the raider will be 1 whole % better then you..whoopdidoo. *snip*
Can someone succeed without it? The point is not to answer yes or no here, the real question would be: Is the game going to be enjoyable without this 20% gear? And the answer is dramatic if the players are in the end-game. Sure, in nooblands it won't change anything, but in the end-game for groupers, 20% less on each player is...80% 6 times...so, 0.8 X 0.8 X 0.8 X 0.8 X 0.8 X 0.8 =barely over 26%...so the group is incredibly weaker, and that is at the end of the road, all the way there is expontially more painfull. With my reasoning you'll have 6 ppl with 1% better gear for a total of 6% and thats hardly a dramatic improvement...really the only time it will make a big difference is when you gather 50 ppl of those together in what would be a raid so you have a 50% improvement over ppl whitout raidgear but thats what the raidgear is intended for anyway. *snip*
Dont post here much if at all but your standpoint really bugs me. In short you wont be 20% worse then the raider you'll be 1% (or some other number since this is all just to prove a point but it'll be less then 20% unless you decide to go naked in the slots you can find better raidgear)..or in a group you're 6% worse but dont you think that if you and your group allways group that you can more then make up for that??
Vanguard is not catering to groups, it's catering to raiding.
Yes, it caters to raiding, but it ALSO catares to grouping and soloing. The empahasis is on grouping though.
When 20% of content is raid oriented and most of that content is the "end game", offering the best items available in the game, then what will group and solo oriented players be doing? Twiddling their thumbs? There is no alternative to earn equal quality gear by crafting or adventuring.
Solo is 20%. Raid is 20%. That leaves 60% of adventure and fun for groupers. This game is group orientated.
IF rares only end up being dropped off raid bossess, which I believe isnt going to be the case anyhow, of course you could actually group/ solo/ craft to EARN the money to buy the rares you will need to make items? This is an alternative, and one that most of the people in smaller non raid guilds use in games like EQ2.
I'm not a raider in the main, though I enjoy the odd one, but I want to option to be able to participate in this kind of event if I choose. From what I have experienced, I have no fear that my gear will be sub par because of my preference for straight groups.
Lets not forget that VG wont be the 40+ man raids of years past. The game is aimed at small tight raids that single guilds can manage ad hoc. many posters here don't seem to be able to make the mental leap that this is being handled differently this time around.
Crafting in Vanguard is based on dependency to acquire the ingredients needed to make the best items, many of which will drop or be harvested in raid content. Raiding is the eclipse of adventuring difficulty so it will drop the best items.
Many many crafters are supported by their guilds with regards to raws. Many many crafters are the richest players on their servers. I really don't see the situation where a able crafter/ trader will not be able to afford to buy the best gear. This is an expample of VG supporting diverse play styles.
The minority of gamers in the market are raiders, about 10% according to most polls.
Well... the market is at 15,000,000 plus if you count games like Lineage II, WoW, Silk Road, Runscape etc. This makes 10% 1,500,000 by your reckoning... If VG gets this as a game with raiding included I'm sure Sigil will be happy.
If Vanguard wants to market a game for raiders, which they clearly are doing, then that is fine, just be honest about it.
Nah, this isnt about the dev's honesty, it's about you hating raiding and the set in stone perception you have of VG being a raid game.
Sigil was being honest about it originally, even saying " if you are looking for a game to solo in, then Vanguard is not for you".
Since the partnership with SOE however, the advertising has been misleading and dishonest, promising that Vanguard will cater to all playstyles.
Noone is being misled. Noone is being dishonest. Stop being emotive and dramatic. Sigil has been standing by the 20% solo content statement for a long long time. Lon before the SoE partnership. stop trying to revise history to suite your need to hate this game please.
This of course comes as no surprise since SOE is interested in market share and maximized profits which won't be achieved by catering to raiders only, and SOE has no qualms about lying. It's just a shame that Brad and company have become part of the deception machine and are being influenced by SOE.
/sigh... another SoE hater blinded by his rage into ignoring simple facts.
Vanguard will not appeal to group or solo players, it's all about raiding.
Originally posted by Neanderthal So, if a server is put up where these items don't exist. What will happen? I'd be perfectly happy playing there, since I don't really expect to ever acquire them anyway. But, would the last group be happy? Knowing that on some other server (in no way impacting their character) there are items that they don't have access to? It would be an interesting test indeed.
There's no need to ponder the results of a test, it's already been done.
DAOC came out with a pure PVE/Raiding expansion that nearly destroyed the game called Trials of Atlantis (TOA). The main problem being it incredibly discrimated between the have's and have nots (casuals and hardcore). This would have been well and good if the expansion had not affected PVP like Mythic had promised. Unfortunately it did, and as a result, many, many, many people left DAOC and Mythic has yet to recover. Realm versus Realm warfare (PVP), by the way, is the bread and butter of DAOC.
One option they came out with fairly recently was the implementation of alternate rule-set servers. The only alteration being the complete removal of the TOA expansion and the removal of buffs that would affect you no matter how far from the caster. These "classic" servers have been for over a year now the most popular servers in the game. So it can work and has already been proven successful. Once again, unfortunately for Mythic they waited over two years before they fixed it in the first place.
Which brings up my point. In my opinion, you guys need to be discussing how Sigil plans on addressing balances in their game in a timely manner. Raiding can occur and be enjoyable by those who like to raid, without destroying the will to play of those who don't. Like someone mentioned earlier, why not make raid items affect those particular raid encounters only. You would still have incremental progression before you got to the big bad boss, maybe end up with a cool trophy, and not affect the playstyles of others in the process.
The kicker here is that Sigil needs to be aware that when you implement content that affects all playstyles you must monitor that content like a newborn and tweak as necessary. Otherwise, you run the risk of failing the same "test" that Mythic did, keeping players.
By the way, I play DAOC exclusively now, the still have the best Realm versus Realm warfare out there. Of course, I play on a classic server.
Well, I'm a noob to mmo's since the first one I've played is Silkroad Online. Which is basically a whole lot of grinding that I don't mind to do cause I want to lvl up. That's my main goal..... Whenever I get online to play I usually log between 2 - 8 hrs of playing. It's my addictive nature to online games in general.
I'm hoping with Vanguard:SoH that everything can be attainable to everybody. Let's say solo, group, and raid quests were lvl based. per say lvl 20+. No other requirement is needed. Only the desire to do the quest and the required amount of ppl to accomplish the quest. ie: solo (1), group (10-20), and raid (20-40). <--- don't hash me on the example numbers. No need to be in a big guild.
And when in game there is a community area where ppl can gather that are ready to do a certain group or raid quest. To make the quild or union members happy the quest can be made either public or private (password required). The quest is queued but not started until the required number of players is reached and started by the quest leader (the one who initiated the quest) so that you have the option of having 10, 13, 16, etc. players join you on the group quest. Same thing with raid quests. This can also be used in conjunction with the community forums to set up days and std server time to help it be more organized if you want. So this can be more fair with the solo or group player that may want to obtain that special raid gear? If it was set up like this, then I see no point in complaining about a game that has 20% raid content. It would be kinda sad if they didn't have the raid content cause it adds something to the game. There should be some challenge in a game. If it was easy why bother playing. But then again I'd be just fine if they had 50% solo and 50% group content.
idk.... just some ideas to consider instead of complaining. I'm mostly a solo player during the weekday since my work schedule keeps me from playing at normal hrs of the day. I hope this game will be enjoyable for most peeps. You can't please everybody..........
Originally posted by Samuraisword Originally posted by Vesavius Response posted by Samuraisword When 20% of content is raid oriented and most of that content is the "end game", offering the best items available in the game, then what will group and solo oriented players be doing? Twiddling their thumbs? There is no alternative to earn equal quality gear by crafting or adventuring. IF rares only end up being dropped off raid bossess, which I believe isnt going to be the case anyhow, of course you could actually group/ solo/ craft to EARN the money to buy the rares you will need to make items? This is an alternative, and one that most of the people in smaller non raid guilds use in games like EQ2. As far as item drops go, this is false regarding EQ2 as most high end items are not tradeable. If ALL items in Vanguard are tradeable, then this point is valid and I concede it as an alternative. We will have to see if this is true. Perhaps you can quote a Sigil staff member stating this to be so.
As far as crafting ingredients go, this is false as you confirm with your next statement, Many many crafters are supported by their guilds with regards to raws. This is the truth and based on my experience guilds will powerlevel their own crafters and not trade crafting ingredients to non guildies.
Crafting in Vanguard is based on dependency to acquire the ingredients needed to make the best items, many of which will drop or be harvested in raid content. Raiding is the eclipse of adventuring difficulty so it will drop the best items.
Many many crafters are the richest players on their servers. I really don't see the situation where a able crafter/ trader will not be able to afford to buy the best gear. This is an example of VG supporting diverse play styles.
This point is false for solo crafting. You can't solo craft the better items in Vanguard because harvesting the ingredients requires dependency on others since they will be acquired in raid content. Also the particular odd mechanics of Vanguard often require a player to be in crafting mode, not in adventuring mode, and thus unable to combat effectively and dependent on at least one other person to party with, in order to make crafting ingredients even drop.
Originally posted by anarchyart If you don't want to raid but still want the best weapons in the game, you really want a game that sucks. Imagine every casual player who solos walking around with the uber shield of death and the sword of hugeness. Every player would be able to get the best stuff, that would be kind of lame. If you disagree that's kewl, I'm not god. Just my opinion. Non raid server? That's crazy talk.
I will never understand why people (not you specifically) who on the one hand think Brad McQuaid is an awesome gamemaker, give the guy no credit sometimes. Do you not think that if he wanted to, Brad could design a game without raid encounters where loot had gradiations of difficulty in obtainment and rarity? Of course he could! So the argument that without raids, every new player who logs on will have epic gear just plain doesn't hunt. You can be opposed to that proposition for other reasons, but that one makes no sense.
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Originally posted by SLNTASN Why not add the gear in the form of quest rewards? It would eliminate the need for a different server, and would allow raiders to get their gear via raiding, groupers to get their gear via grouping, and soloers to get their gear via soloing. Granted the quests are scaled appropriately (Solo quests for raid-level gear would have to take quite a while to get, Grouping quests for that same gear will take a little less longer to get, but the encounters should be more difficult)
Discuss!
I think this is a good solution for alternative high quality drops for non raiders. I despise geographic instancing but any quest combat could be instanced for small group and solo quests to prevent players from choosing an easier method of obtaining quality gear. I can deal with instanced combat which only allows a solo quest receiver to be instanced for the solo quests or a small group to be instanced for the small group quests. It wouldn't be hard to code. LDON expansion for EQ1 was coded to only allow small groups to zone into that dungeon. Soloers and raid size groups could not.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Zorgo Lastly, examine your rl philosophy....do you also believe that because there is a such a gap between rich and poor in this country that we should take all the uber items from the rich and powerful and either deny them access to it or redistribute it among the entire populous? In the real world, that's called communism...and I bet most of you on this forum are against it in rl....do you secretly wish your mmo was run by Karl Marx?
I couldn't let this statement slide.
The mechanics of raiding prevent non raiders from earning those items which is not fair, whereas the mechanics of real life are open to anyone willing to work hard. There are many ways to succeed in real life, none of which force someone to pursue a limted course of action they don't like.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it." Brad McQuaid Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc. Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes www.vanguardsoh
Originally posted by Amathe I will never understand why people (not you specifically) who on the one hand think Brad McQuaid is an awesome gamemaker, give the guy no credit sometimes. Do you not think that if he wanted to, Brad could design a game without raid encounters where loot had gradiations of difficulty in obtainment and rarity? Of course he could! So the argument that without raids, every new player who logs on will have epic gear just plain doesn't hunt. You can be opposed to that proposition for other reasons, but that one makes no sense.
There is a tremendous amount of camaraderie on raids. People develop lifelong friendships and even more in guilds that raid like this. You may not like it, lots of people may not, but this is the game that Brad is developing. There are things for everyone to do, including those who like to raid. God bless america.
Originally posted by Samuraisword Vanguard is not catering to groups, it's catering to raiding. When 20% of content is raid oriented and most of that content is the "end game", offering the best items available in the game, then what will group and solo oriented players be doing? Twiddling their thumbs? There is no alternative to earn equal quality gear by crafting or adventuring. Crafting in Vanguard is based on dependency to acquire the ingredients needed to make the best items, many of which will drop or be harvested in raid content. Raiding is the eclipse of adventuring difficulty so it will drop the best items. The minority of gamers in the market are raiders, about 10% according to most polls. If Vanguard wants to market a game for raiders, which they clearly are doing, then that is fine, just be honest about it. Sigil was being honest about it originally, even saying " if you are looking for a game to solo in, then Vanguard is not for you". Since the partnership with SOE however, the advertising has been misleading and dishonest, promising that Vanguard will cater to all playstyles. This of course comes as no surprise since SOE is interested in market share and maximized profits which won't be achieved by catering to raiders only, and SOE has no qualms about lying. It's just a shame that Brad and company have become part of the deception machine and are being influenced by SOE. Vanguard will not appeal to group or solo players, it's all about raiding.
B.S. I'm a group player and Vanguard appeals to me. I will not raid even once, and this is my most anticipated game. Don't speak for anyone but you. Very troll.
Well I gave up reading this ages ago (despite starting the tread!) but I'll just pop in and say I'm a 97% group player as I almost only every game with a regular couple of people and others from my guild (when we're in one) and I'm looking forward to this too.
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My issue isn't the presence of raids per se, it's that most of those items are Bind on Pickup. I can understand Bind on Equip...if you wear it you are stuck with it because nobody else wants your body funk. BoP is stupid. So my suggestion would be to keep raiding but have a non-BoP server.
Originally posted by Samuraisword Originally posted by Vesavius Response posted by Samuraisword When 20% of content is raid oriented and most of that content is the "end game", offering the best items available in the game, then what will group and solo oriented players be doing? Twiddling their thumbs? There is no alternative to earn equal quality gear by crafting or adventuring. IF rares only end up being dropped off raid bossess, which I believe isnt going to be the case anyhow, of course you could actually group/ solo/ craft to EARN the money to buy the rares you will need to make items? This is an alternative, and one that most of the people in smaller non raid guilds use in games like EQ2. As far as item drops go, this is false regarding EQ2 as most high end items are not tradeable. If ALL items in Vanguard are tradeable, then this point is valid and I concede it as an alternative. We will have to see if this is true. Perhaps you can quote a Sigil staff member stating this to be so. As far as crafting ingredients go, this is false as you confirm with your next statement, Many many crafters are supported by their guilds with regards to raws. This is the truth and based on my experience guilds will powerlevel their own crafters and not trade crafting ingredients to non guildies. Crafting in Vanguard is based on dependency to acquire the ingredients needed to make the best items, many of which will drop or be harvested in raid content. Raiding is the eclipse of adventuring difficulty so it will drop the best items. Many many crafters are the richest players on their servers. I really don't see the situation where a able crafter/ trader will not be able to afford to buy the best gear. This is an example of VG supporting diverse play styles. This point is false for solo crafting. You can't solo craft the better items in Vanguard because harvesting the ingredients requires dependency on others since they will be acquired in raid content. Also the particular odd mechanics of Vanguard often require a player to be in crafting mode, not in adventuring mode, and thus unable to combat effectively and dependent on at least one other person to party with, in order to make crafting ingredients even drop.
I see you have chosen to simply not address the points of mine that you cannot debate. I guess thats easier then having to outright conceed them.
OK... getting a little messy with the replies here etc... willl try to clarify it some;
IF rares only end up being dropped off raid bossess, which I believe isnt going to be the case anyhow, of course you could actually group/ solo/ craft to EARN the money to buy the rares you will need to make items? This is an alternative, and one that most of the people in smaller non raid guilds use in games like EQ2.
As far as item drops go, this is false regarding EQ2 as most high end items are not tradeable. If ALL items in Vanguard are tradeable, then this point is valid and I concede it as an alternative. We will have to see if this is true. Perhaps you can quote a Sigil staff member stating this to be so.
I clearly state that I am talking about rares for crafting. Focused Solo only/ group only/ craft only players won't have the SAME gear as raider willing players at the high end, but their gear will be as GOOD as a raiders at high end. I have never claimed anything else otherwise.
As far as crafting ingredients go, this is false as you confirm with your next statement, Many many crafters are supported by their guilds with regards to raws. This is the truth and based on my experience guilds will powerlevel their own crafters and not trade crafting ingredients to non guildies.
I agree that having the support of a quality guild of able people will be an advantage in this game, but then it is in every MMORPG yes? As well as destroying raiding, you also want to destroy guilds? Are you sure it's actually a MMORPG that you want to play? You seem to hate the social element of the games. and want to play in a 100% independant and isolated style. If this is so, VG isnt for you.
Will you be able to have gear as good as anyone elses as a dedicated crafter? Yes.
Will you be able to have gear as good as anyone elses as a NON GUILDED dedicated crafter/ trader who refuses to establish working realtionships with others in any sense and insists on playing this as a single player experience? No.
Crafting in Vanguard is based on dependency to acquire the ingredients needed to make the best items, many of which will drop or be harvested in raid content. Raiding is the eclipse of adventuring difficulty so it will drop the best items.
No. You are wrong. Raiding is being treated as an option in this game, not the apex.
Many many crafters are the richest players on their servers. I really don't see the situation where a able crafter/ trader will not be able to afford to buy the best gear. This is an example of VG supporting diverse play styles. This point is false for solo crafting. You can't solo craft the better items in Vanguard because harvesting the ingredients requires dependency on others since they will be acquired in raid content. Also the particular odd mechanics of Vanguard often require a player to be in crafting mode, not in adventuring mode, and thus unable to combat effectively and dependent on at least one other person to party with, in order to make crafting ingredients even drop.
Another example of you wanting to be able to play this game without groups or guilds, let alone raids...
This continous demanding from a vocal minority for 100% isolated play is getting past boring. This isnt what Vangurd is about, and never has been, so stop crying about it please? There are 10000 games out there that cater for this isolated anti-social approach, and only VG that offers something different. Get over it, and move on to a game that will give you the play experience that you are seeking maybe?
Back on the subject at hand... A crafter is entirely able to make enough money to buy items and as raids are small any guild with a few players the right lvl will be able to do them. There will be enough rares on the market to buy. Alternatively, get a frikin guild eh?
There obviously isnt enough dynamite in the world to shift your opinion on what VG is and what it will be though, so I will bow out at this point and leave you to it. I honestly wonder why you post about a game that you so blindly hate though.
You just confirmed what I have been saying all along, that Vanguard is raid centric, where the best gear will be earned raiding and uber guilds thrive. I don't hate Vanguard, I just want them to stop promoting the game as solo and small group friendly which is not true. It's a lie to gain market share for the short term and initially sell boxes, before soloers and small group oriented players discover the truth and quit.
Originally posted by z80paranoia My issue isn't the presence of raids per se, it's that most of those items are Bind on Pickup. I can understand Bind on Equip...if you wear it you are stuck with it because nobody else wants your body funk. BoP is stupid. So my suggestion would be to keep raiding but have a non-BoP server.
Was just sliding though here and noticed this, so you get a reply
The reason for bind on pickup is so people can't farm and sell (real money) the items, you have to be there when it's killed. What I have seen before that might be more to your liking is bind to account. That way you could pass gear along to your twinks and it still stops farming, unless the person can get to item to loot it, which would get harder as the gear gets better.
Bind to account is better than bind to character. But honestly, BoP doesn't really stop the farmers from making lots of real money. Farmers still have the non BoP items which are plenty real-cash profitable and they still can farm gold which is probably better since it's in demand and can be found anywhere. The only people really stifled by BoP are the honest players that just want to pass on gear to a friend or make honest legal in-game money by auctioning the item.
It's not raiding that forces raiding. It's not the fact that the best gear comes from raiding that forces raiding. It's BoP that forces it. In fact, BoP can artificially force any playstyle, including solo. Imagine how much of a ruckus would be caused if top tier desireable gear was BoP and the only way to get that gear was through 4 uninterruped hours of soloing in one particular area and even after the 4 hours there was no guarantee you'd get the item.....but in raids none of the items were BoP...that would turn the tables and make soloing the apex of that games experience. Solo would be the bottleneck and not raiding because the bottleneck is where the BoPs are concentrated. Raiders would hate it because it would force them to play alone for long stretches of time...and on a pvp server the soloers with their gear that they got from doing what they enjoy most anyways would dominate pvp....and even in pve servers the solo players would be the most desireable in groups and raids since they would be the most powerful. Raiders would complain and soloers would rebuke them for "wanting free epics"...blah blah blah...
My solution would be to make no gear BoP or all gear BoP. This would make progression fair and equal for everybody. Problem with all BoP is there'd be no economy or at least not a great one. There is no problem with no BoP and farming companies will get rich regardless so there's no point in stifling the good players. Oddly enough I think farming would be in less demand if there was no BoP since guilds could twink all their members, including the ones that didn't raid. It would be interesting if they made one server like that just to see how popular it was and how much the players liked it. It would be similar to SoEs station exchange servers that allow gold farming but it won't allow buying gold just allowed people to pass on unequipped gear in-game. Still, bind to account is a good idea and if that's how vanguard was I would give them their respect for offering players at least one less artificial nonsense restriction.
I dont understand the point of raids. I played EQ for a year and i just quit cause in the end to get good gear you had to go to raids but you never got the best equip, that equip was just got for the leaders of the guild that make the raid usually.
I want something lilke offline games but online, that i can become a hero by myself not need always 70 ppl and actually just to help someone to get the best equip and i just get crap. I dont want to depend on someone so much or if that person likes me or not, cause friends of leaders always get better things.
So, make a game like Oblivion but online. I dont get any fun helping leaders/officers to get ubber gear.
The only game that i found where you actually solo in the end is Saga of Ryzom. You cant solo in all but its MUCH more solo that EQ type of game. You can get the best items in game with a team of just 3 ppl for instance. I dont need of beign part of a big guild i dont like just to get ubber items, i just go on my own and invite some friends, we kill big mobs get mats and craft with them to get ubber gear, its a matter of time getting mats and when you have enough you make the ubber item.
BTW i didnt understood a word of the last post, dont know what is BoP or Bind to account or Bind to character
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Originally posted by gurthgor BTW i didnt understood a word of the last post, dont know what is BoP or Bind to account or Bind to character
BoP = bind on pickup and is how developers force you to raid in order to get the best items because they can't be traded. It's a stupid concept because it's not realistic and it forces a linear playstyle.
Originally posted by z80paranoia My issue isn't the presence of raids per se, it's that most of those items are Bind on Pickup. I can understand Bind on Equip...if you wear it you are stuck with it because nobody else wants your body funk. BoP is stupid. So my suggestion would be to keep raiding but have a non-BoP server.
What makes you think this game is all BoP and not BoE?
Originally posted by lordtwisted Originally posted by z80paranoia My issue isn't the presence of raids per se, it's that most of those items are Bind on Pickup. I can understand Bind on Equip...if you wear it you are stuck with it because nobody else wants your body funk. BoP is stupid. So my suggestion would be to keep raiding but have a non-BoP server.
What makes you think this game is all BoP and not BoE? Did I say vanguard in particular would definitely have BoP items? Did I say vanguard in particular would be "all BoP"? I do remember saying "most of those items"...that much is true. I could clarify and say that I was only talking about the most powerful items or many of the items needed to complete an armor set.
Originally posted by baphamet Originally posted by EliasThorne After seeing I don't know how many threads derailed by this argument I thought I'd do a quick and simple poll.Feel free to vote and argue as much as you like (hopefully it will help keep other threads on topic!!)
heh, it doesn't matter how many topics you make about raiding, certain people on these forums (you know who you are) will always derail nearly every topic with their anti raiding argument.
i think their should be a non-raiding server (if not in vanguard then in some other game) just so these people will STHU
There's no raidng in Guild Wars and I'm loving it : )
Originally posted by dragonace Originally posted by Neanderthal First to Dragonace. I'm glad you agreed with most of what I said. The only thing I didn't understand is how you got "lottery" out of "quests and/or dungeon crawls".
Sorry about that Neanderthal. That was my mistake. I was reading fast, and didn't really pay attention to what you were saying in that paragraph. I thought you meant like some kind of 6-sided dice roll. 1-in-6 chance of reward.
I went back and see that's not at all what you said or meant.
I think if they put all the very best loot in group encounters and quests, then there wouldn't really be any point in having raid content at all. I could live with that, but I'm not really sure that is what you intended.
I guess I am hoping that Vanguard does it this way:
20% solo/casual content : The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas. 60% group content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas. 20% raid content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
Items made from crafting is unique as well - and doesn't really figure into these percentages. It's on top of all the loot from the 3 other areas of content.
No mention of BEST gear there at all. I would like there not to a single BEST gear for any slot. There should be hundreds of gear that you would desire for each and every slot - depending on where you are going and what you are fighting. Each of those hundreds of items should come from all 4 areas (including crafting). That's what I hope for from Vanguard. One possible way to deal with the raiding drama would be to make raid gear have the same stats as the best groupable gear but have a unique or different look, a look way better than the solo/group gear. So the raid uber looter scooper kiddes can brag about their drops but not have better stats. This is done in Guild Wars although there's no raiding. 1mil gear looks radically better than the 10k gear but have same stats
Originally posted by dragonace Originally posted by Amathe ... That's why I am such a harsh critic of Vanguard. If I could just do my thing and have a good time, I could care less if some other player who needs to be the "best" raids his heart out and gets treasure galore. But it's not going to be like that. I will be reduced to a raggety, nomadic slayer of small vermin if I don't buy into the "just win baby" mentality that pervades at Sigil.
I'm hoping you're wrong. I hope that we will be able to ignore those that want to be the "best" and just do our own thing.
The reason I think this may be possible is the sheer size of Vanguard in both physical size and amount of items and the 3 spheres of advancement. But, I could be totally off base, and you may be right. I am willing to give it try though, and find out for myself. Doing your own thing may well take some time to get to. Maybe several expansions where you have the trickle down gear effect so you can solo what once needed a group, sad I know.
Originally posted by Sturmrabe Raids are such an intrinsic part of games like this, it just isn't going to happen, give up now and save yourself the grief...
Yep. Its a foregone conclusion. The fight was lost a long time ago.
AoC will have raids too though. Its not like thats a good alternative instead.
Comments
There's no need to ponder the results of a test, it's already been done.
DAOC came out with a pure PVE/Raiding expansion that nearly destroyed the game called Trials of Atlantis (TOA).
The main problem being it incredibly discrimated between the have's and have nots (casuals and hardcore). This would have been well and good if the expansion had not affected PVP like Mythic had promised. Unfortunately it did, and as a result, many, many, many people left DAOC and Mythic has yet to recover. Realm versus Realm warfare (PVP), by the way, is the bread and butter of DAOC.
One option they came out with fairly recently was the implementation of alternate rule-set servers. The only alteration being the complete removal of the TOA expansion and the removal of buffs that would affect you no matter how far from the caster. These "classic" servers have been for over a year now the most popular servers in the game. So it can work and has already been proven successful. Once again, unfortunately for Mythic they waited over two years before they fixed it in the first place.
Which brings up my point. In my opinion, you guys need to be discussing how Sigil plans on addressing balances in their game in a timely manner. Raiding can occur and be enjoyable by those who like to raid, without destroying the will to play of those who don't. Like someone mentioned earlier, why not make raid items affect those particular raid encounters only. You would still have incremental progression before you got to the big bad boss, maybe end up with a cool trophy, and not affect the playstyles of others in the process.
The kicker here is that Sigil needs to be aware that when you implement content that affects all playstyles you must monitor that content like a newborn and tweak as necessary. Otherwise, you run the risk of failing the same "test" that Mythic did, keeping players.
By the way, I play DAOC exclusively now, the still have the best Realm versus Realm warfare out there. Of course, I play on a classic server.
Well, I'm a noob to mmo's since the first one I've played is Silkroad Online. Which is basically a whole lot of grinding that I don't mind to do cause I want to lvl up. That's my main goal..... Whenever I get online to play I usually log between 2 - 8 hrs of playing. It's my addictive nature to online games in general.
I'm hoping with Vanguard:SoH that everything can be attainable to everybody. Let's say solo, group, and raid quests were lvl based. per say lvl 20+. No other requirement is needed. Only the desire to do the quest and the required amount of ppl to accomplish the quest. ie: solo (1), group (10-20), and raid (20-40). <--- don't hash me on the example numbers. No need to be in a big guild.
And when in game there is a community area where ppl can gather that are ready to do a certain group or raid quest. To make the quild or union members happy the quest can be made either public or private (password required). The quest is queued but not started until the required number of players is reached and started by the quest leader (the one who initiated the quest) so that you have the option of having 10, 13, 16, etc. players join you on the group quest. Same thing with raid quests. This can also be used in conjunction with the community forums to set up days and std server time to help it be more organized if you want. So this can be more fair with the solo or group player that may want to obtain that special raid gear? If it was set up like this, then I see no point in complaining about a game that has 20% raid content. It would be kinda sad if they didn't have the raid content cause it adds something to the game. There should be some challenge in a game. If it was easy why bother playing. But then again I'd be just fine if they had 50% solo and 50% group content.
idk.... just some ideas to consider instead of complaining. I'm mostly a solo player during the weekday since my work schedule keeps me from playing at normal hrs of the day. I hope this game will be enjoyable for most peeps. You can't please everybody..........
Originally posted by Samuraisword
Originally posted by Vesavius
Response posted by Samuraisword
When 20% of content is raid oriented and most of that content is the "end game", offering the best items available in the game, then what will group and solo oriented players be doing? Twiddling their thumbs? There is no alternative to earn equal quality gear by crafting or adventuring.
IF rares only end up being dropped off raid bossess, which I believe isnt going to be the case anyhow, of course you could actually group/ solo/ craft to EARN the money to buy the rares you will need to make items? This is an alternative, and one that most of the people in smaller non raid guilds use in games like EQ2.
As far as item drops go, this is false regarding EQ2 as most high end items are not tradeable. If ALL items in Vanguard are tradeable, then this point is valid and I concede it as an alternative. We will have to see if this is true. Perhaps you can quote a Sigil staff member stating this to be so.
As far as crafting ingredients go, this is false as you confirm with your next statement, Many many crafters are supported by their guilds with regards to raws. This is the truth and based on my experience guilds will powerlevel their own crafters and not trade crafting ingredients to non guildies.
Crafting in Vanguard is based on dependency to acquire the ingredients needed to make the best items, many of which will drop or be harvested in raid content. Raiding is the eclipse of adventuring difficulty so it will drop the best items.
Many many crafters are the richest players on their servers. I really don't see the situation where a able crafter/ trader will not be able to afford to buy the best gear. This is an example of VG supporting diverse play styles.
This point is false for solo crafting. You can't solo craft the better items in Vanguard because harvesting the ingredients requires dependency on others since they will be acquired in raid content. Also the particular odd mechanics of Vanguard often require a player to be in crafting mode, not in adventuring mode, and thus unable to combat effectively and dependent on at least one other person to party with, in order to make crafting ingredients even drop.
I will never understand why people (not you specifically) who on the one hand think Brad McQuaid is an awesome gamemaker, give the guy no credit sometimes. Do you not think that if he wanted to, Brad could design a game without raid encounters where loot had gradiations of difficulty in obtainment and rarity? Of course he could! So the argument that without raids, every new player who logs on will have epic gear just plain doesn't hunt. You can be opposed to that proposition for other reasons, but that one makes no sense.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
I couldn't let this statement slide.
The mechanics of raiding prevent non raiders from earning those items which is not fair, whereas the mechanics of real life are open to anyone willing to work hard. There are many ways to succeed in real life, none of which force someone to pursue a limted course of action they don't like.
"We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
Brad McQuaid
Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
www.vanguardsoh
Currently Playing: GW2
Currently Following: Elder Scrolls Online
Games in my wake: Anarchy Online, Archlord (beta), Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, City of Heroes, Dark Age of Camelot (SI to Catacombs), DDO, EVE Online, EverQuest II (beta), Guild Wars, Horizons, Lineage II,LORTO, Rift, RF Online (beta), RYL, Saga of Ryzon, Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies, Vanguard, WAR, WoW
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I see you have chosen to simply not address the points of mine that you cannot debate. I guess thats easier then having to outright conceed them.
OK... getting a little messy with the replies here etc... willl try to clarify it some;
IF rares only end up being dropped off raid bossess, which I believe isnt going to be the case anyhow, of course you could actually group/ solo/ craft to EARN the money to buy the rares you will need to make items? This is an alternative, and one that most of the people in smaller non raid guilds use in games like EQ2.
As far as item drops go, this is false regarding EQ2 as most high end items are not tradeable. If ALL items in Vanguard are tradeable, then this point is valid and I concede it as an alternative. We will have to see if this is true. Perhaps you can quote a Sigil staff member stating this to be so.
I clearly state that I am talking about rares for crafting. Focused Solo only/ group only/ craft only players won't have the SAME gear as raider willing players at the high end, but their gear will be as GOOD as a raiders at high end. I have never claimed anything else otherwise.
As far as crafting ingredients go, this is false as you confirm with your next statement, Many many crafters are supported by their guilds with regards to raws. This is the truth and based on my experience guilds will powerlevel their own crafters and not trade crafting ingredients to non guildies.
I agree that having the support of a quality guild of able people will be an advantage in this game, but then it is in every MMORPG yes? As well as destroying raiding, you also want to destroy guilds? Are you sure it's actually a MMORPG that you want to play? You seem to hate the social element of the games. and want to play in a 100% independant and isolated style. If this is so, VG isnt for you.
Will you be able to have gear as good as anyone elses as a dedicated crafter? Yes.
Will you be able to have gear as good as anyone elses as a NON GUILDED dedicated crafter/ trader who refuses to establish working realtionships with others in any sense and insists on playing this as a single player experience? No.
Crafting in Vanguard is based on dependency to acquire the ingredients needed to make the best items, many of which will drop or be harvested in raid content. Raiding is the eclipse of adventuring difficulty so it will drop the best items.
No. You are wrong. Raiding is being treated as an option in this game, not the apex.
Many many crafters are the richest players on their servers. I really don't see the situation where a able crafter/ trader will not be able to afford to buy the best gear. This is an example of VG supporting diverse play styles.
This point is false for solo crafting. You can't solo craft the better items in Vanguard because harvesting the ingredients requires dependency on others since they will be acquired in raid content. Also the particular odd mechanics of Vanguard often require a player to be in crafting mode, not in adventuring mode, and thus unable to combat effectively and dependent on at least one other person to party with, in order to make crafting ingredients even drop.
Another example of you wanting to be able to play this game without groups or guilds, let alone raids...
This continous demanding from a vocal minority for 100% isolated play is getting past boring. This isnt what Vangurd is about, and never has been, so stop crying about it please? There are 10000 games out there that cater for this isolated anti-social approach, and only VG that offers something different. Get over it, and move on to a game that will give you the play experience that you are seeking maybe?
Back on the subject at hand... A crafter is entirely able to make enough money to buy items and as raids are small any guild with a few players the right lvl will be able to do them. There will be enough rares on the market to buy. Alternatively, get a frikin guild eh?
There obviously isnt enough dynamite in the world to shift your opinion on what VG is and what it will be though, so I will bow out at this point and leave you to it. I honestly wonder why you post about a game that you so blindly hate though.
Nothing else going on today?
The reason for bind on pickup is so people can't farm and sell (real money) the items, you have to be there when it's killed. What I have seen before that might be more to your liking is bind to account. That way you could pass gear along to your twinks and it still stops farming, unless the person can get to item to loot it, which would get harder as the gear gets better.
It's not raiding that forces raiding. It's not the fact that the best gear comes from raiding that forces raiding. It's BoP that forces it. In fact, BoP can artificially force any playstyle, including solo. Imagine how much of a ruckus would be caused if top tier desireable gear was BoP and the only way to get that gear was through 4 uninterruped hours of soloing in one particular area and even after the 4 hours there was no guarantee you'd get the item.....but in raids none of the items were BoP...that would turn the tables and make soloing the apex of that games experience. Solo would be the bottleneck and not raiding because the bottleneck is where the BoPs are concentrated. Raiders would hate it because it would force them to play alone for long stretches of time...and on a pvp server the soloers with their gear that they got from doing what they enjoy most anyways would dominate pvp....and even in pve servers the solo players would be the most desireable in groups and raids since they would be the most powerful. Raiders would complain and soloers would rebuke them for "wanting free epics"...blah blah blah...
My solution would be to make no gear BoP or all gear BoP. This would make progression fair and equal for everybody. Problem with all BoP is there'd be no economy or at least not a great one. There is no problem with no BoP and farming companies will get rich regardless so there's no point in stifling the good players. Oddly enough I think farming would be in less demand if there was no BoP since guilds could twink all their members, including the ones that didn't raid. It would be interesting if they made one server like that just to see how popular it was and how much the players liked it. It would be similar to SoEs station exchange servers that allow gold farming but it won't allow buying gold just allowed people to pass on unequipped gear in-game. Still, bind to account is a good idea and if that's how vanguard was I would give them their respect for offering players at least one less artificial nonsense restriction.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I dont understand the point of raids. I played EQ for a year and i just quit cause in the end to get good gear you had to go to raids but you never got the best equip, that equip was just got for the leaders of the guild that make the raid usually.
I want something lilke offline games but online, that i can become a hero by myself not need always 70 ppl and actually just to help someone to get the best equip and i just get crap. I dont want to depend on someone so much or if that person likes me or not, cause friends of leaders always get better things.
So, make a game like Oblivion but online. I dont get any fun helping leaders/officers to get ubber gear.
The only game that i found where you actually solo in the end is Saga of Ryzom. You cant solo in all but its MUCH more solo that EQ type of game. You can get the best items in game with a team of just 3 ppl for instance. I dont need of beign part of a big guild i dont like just to get ubber items, i just go on my own and invite some friends, we kill big mobs get mats and craft with them to get ubber gear, its a matter of time getting mats and when you have enough you make the ubber item.
BTW i didnt understood a word of the last post, dont know what is BoP or Bind to account or Bind to character
Blade with whom i have lived, blade with whom I now die. Serve right and justice one last time. Seek one last heart of evil. Still one last life of pain. Cut well old friend. Then farewell!
Not so nice guy!
Did I say vanguard in particular would definitely have BoP items? Did I say vanguard in particular would be "all BoP"? I do remember saying "most of those items"...that much is true. I could clarify and say that I was only talking about the most powerful items or many of the items needed to complete an armor set.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Raids are such an intrinsic part of games like this, it just isn't going to happen, give up now and save yourself the grief...
Of all that is written, I love only what a person has written with his own blood. -Nietzsche
heh, it doesn't matter how many topics you make about raiding, certain people on these forums (you know who you are) will always derail nearly every topic with their anti raiding argument.
i think their should be a non-raiding server (if not in vanguard then in some other game) just so these people will STHU
There's no raidng in Guild Wars and I'm loving it : )
Spiritglow
I went back and see that's not at all what you said or meant.
I think if they put all the very best loot in group encounters and quests, then there wouldn't really be any point in having raid content at all. I could live with that, but I'm not really sure that is what you intended.
I guess I am hoping that Vanguard does it this way:
20% solo/casual content : The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
60% group content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
20% raid content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
Items made from crafting is unique as well - and doesn't really figure into these percentages. It's on top of all the loot from the 3 other areas of content.
No mention of BEST gear there at all. I would like there not to a single BEST gear for any slot. There should be hundreds of gear that you would desire for each and every slot - depending on where you are going and what you are fighting. Each of those hundreds of items should come from all 4 areas (including crafting). That's what I hope for from Vanguard.
One possible way to deal with the raiding drama would be to make raid gear have the same stats as the best groupable gear but have a unique or different look, a look way better than the solo/group gear. So the raid uber looter scooper kiddes can brag about their drops but not have better stats. This is done in Guild Wars although there's no raiding. 1mil gear looks radically better than the 10k gear but have same stats
Spiritglow
The reason I think this may be possible is the sheer size of Vanguard in both physical size and amount of items and the 3 spheres of advancement. But, I could be totally off base, and you may be right. I am willing to give it try though, and find out for myself.
Doing your own thing may well take some time to get to. Maybe several expansions where you have the trickle down gear effect so you can solo what once needed a group, sad I know.
Spiritglow
AoC will have raids too though. Its not like thats a good alternative instead.