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Non Raid server - Yes or No?

24

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  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630



    Originally posted by dragonace
    I think that some of the blame, Amathe; also has to be shared with the players themselves.  We've heard it from many posters, in this very thread in fact.

    "I want to be the BEST!"  Best enchanter, best cleric, best bard, whatever.  It's this drive to be the BEST that the Devs are fueling with their current game designs. 



    I agree with that. There is no question that many players bring that playstyle with them.

    What makes me nuts, though, is that it used to be you could ignore those guys. "Ok, so you are the BEST warrior. KK grats." That didn't stop me from doing and enjoying what I wanted to do. But games have changed. Oh, you don't want to farm mobs for weeks until you can afford a mount? Walk everywhere. You don't want to play 24/7 to get uber gear? Ok, content will be forclosed to you or groups will not include you. These days you can'tjust  let testosterone driven e-champions go do their thing and you just do your thing. Those same people have persuaded the Devs that in order for their game experience to be worthwhile, it is not enough that they win - you must fail.

    That's why I am such a harsh critic of Vanguard. If I could just do my thing and have a good time, I could care less if some other player who needs to be the "best" raids his heart out and gets treasure galore. But it's not going to be like that. I will be reduced to a raggety, nomadic slayer of small vermin if I don't buy into the "just win baby" mentality that pervades at Sigil.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,861

    First to Dragonace.  I'm glad you agreed with most of what I said.  The only thing I didn't understand is how you got "lottery" out of "quests and/or dungeon crawls". 

    Now to Amathe.  I agree with you very much and in different times and places have said much the same thing.  The whole premise of these games where they are all about chasing after levels and loot is a pretty f--ked up to begin with in my opinion. 

    And of course if levels and loot is all there is to a game, especially games where loot can never be lost or destroyed, you get the inevitable escalation of item power.  That goes on untill it reaches the point of utter ridiculousness and then it keeps on going.  Because without it the game ends because that's all there is to the game.

    But if they have to keep making games like this I can at least hope that they make them better for people like me.  I can have fun in levels and loot games or I wouldn't bother arguing for change in them.

  • LeasaLeasa Member Posts: 449



    Originally posted by Amathe

    What makes me nuts, though, is that it used to be you could ignore those guys. "Ok, so you are the BEST warrior. KK grats." That didn't stop me from doing and enjoying what I wanted to do. But games have changed. Oh, you don't want to farm mobs for weeks until you can afford a mount? Walk everywhere. You don't want to play 24/7 to get uber gear? Ok, content will be forclosed to you or groups will not include you. These days you can'tjust  let testosterone driven e-champions go do their thing and you just do your thing. Those same people have persuaded the Devs that in order for their game experience to be worthwhile, it is not enough that they win - you must fail.
    That's why I am such a harsh critic of Vanguard. If I could just do my thing and have a good time, I could care less if some other player who needs to be the "best" raids his heart out and gets treasure galore. But it's not going to be like that. I will be reduced to a raggety, nomadic slayer of small vermin if I don't buy into the "just win baby" mentality that pervades at Sigil.



    Well spoken.

    I will not play a game if it includes raiding.  Also I dont like the idea of a guild determining for me what content I will be allowed to play in a game.  In raiding games the players decide what content is available to me not the game company.  That is just so wrong.


     

    Support Bacteria, its the only culture some people have.

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by Neanderthal
    First to Dragonace.  I'm glad you agreed with most of what I said.  The only thing I didn't understand is how you got "lottery" out of "quests and/or dungeon crawls". 
    Sorry about that Neanderthal.  That was my mistake.  I was reading fast, and didn't really pay attention to what you were saying in that paragraph.  I thought you meant like some kind of 6-sided dice roll.  1-in-6 chance of reward.

    I went back and see that's not at all what you said or meant. 

    I think if they put all the very best loot in group encounters and quests, then there wouldn't really be any point in having raid content at all.  I could live with that, but I'm not really sure that is what you intended.

    I guess I am hoping that Vanguard does it this way:

    20% solo/casual content : The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
    60% group content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
    20% raid content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.

    Items made from crafting is unique as well - and doesn't really figure into these percentages.  It's on top of all the loot from the 3 other areas of content.

    No mention of BEST gear there at all.  I would like there not to a single BEST gear for any slot.  There should be hundreds of gear that you would desire for each and every slot - depending on where you are going and what you are fighting.  Each of those hundreds of items should come from all 4 areas (including crafting).  That's what I hope for from Vanguard.


  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by Amathe
    ...
    That's why I am such a harsh critic of Vanguard. If I could just do my thing and have a good time, I could care less if some other player who needs to be the "best" raids his heart out and gets treasure galore. But it's not going to be like that. I will be reduced to a raggety, nomadic slayer of small vermin if I don't buy into the "just win baby" mentality that pervades at Sigil.

    I'm hoping you're wrong.  I hope that we will be able to ignore those that want to be the "best" and just do our own thing. 

    The reason I think this may be possible is the sheer size of Vanguard in both physical size and amount of items and the 3 spheres of advancement.  But, I could be totally off base, and you may be right.  I am willing to give it try though, and find out for myself.  image


  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,861



    Originally posted by dragonace



    I guess I am hoping that Vanguard does it this way:

    20% solo/casual content : The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
    60% group content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
    20% raid content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.





    Of course you are aware that this is pretty much the party line over at sigil headquarters.  I could tell you the problems I have with it but then our nice pleasant discussion might take a nasty turn.  Suffice to say that I am not at all enticed by this.

    In your next post you told Amathe that you were willing to give the game a try.  To each his own.  As it turns out I am not willing to give it a try based on faith or wishful thinking or any other intangible.  I know with absolute certainty that I won't be happy in a raiding game.  So there is really no reason at all for me to give them my money and encourage devs to make even more raiding games by adding even one more subscription to this one.

    By the same token, if they had a no-raids server I would very strongly consider playing the game even if I didn't like everything else about.  Just to encourage devs to get over the obsession with raiding.


  • Originally posted by dragonace
    Originally posted by Amathe
    ...
    That's why I am such a harsh critic of Vanguard. If I could just do my thing and have a good time, I could care less if some other player who needs to be the "best" raids his heart out and gets treasure galore. But it's not going to be like that. I will be reduced to a raggety, nomadic slayer of small vermin if I don't buy into the "just win baby" mentality that pervades at Sigil.
    I'm hoping you're wrong.  I hope that we will be able to ignore those that want to be the "best" and just do our own thing. 

    The reason I think this may be possible is the sheer size of Vanguard in both physical size and amount of items and the 3 spheres of advancement.  But, I could be totally off base, and you may be right.  I am willing to give it try though, and find out for myself.  image


    No this 20% thing is BS, and most of us know it on some level.  People develop sterotypes and silly ideas about things and then they form groups on it.  You see it in WoW with classes and items, but it most evident in Guild Wars.

    The reason it is most evident in Guild Wars is there are in fact a number of different heal builds and for certain jobs a primary Monk is not actually the best.  A mesmer/monk with fact casting, may lack the extra healing umph but is a better "Oh crap" healer because his spell can cast twice as fast.  And yet what happens?  A lot of people who think they know what they are doing but do not actually know what they are doing only take Monk primaries.

    Same thing will happen with the raid gear in Vanguard. 

    Two things will happen:
    1) people who don't want to raid will be pissed because they will have neutered progression.
    2) there will be common gear stereotypes and non-raiders will be viewed as gimp and less desirable.


    I guarantee it.




    Note: #2 is mostly caused by min/maxers and idiots who can only see the obvious and not the subtle.  But if you think Vanguard won't have a number of those then you are sadly mistaken.
  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by Neanderthal
    Originally posted by dragonace

    I guess I am hoping that Vanguard does it this way:

    20% solo/casual content : The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
    60% group content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.
    20% raid content: The loot from this area is unique and not available from other areas.


    Of course you are aware that this is pretty much the party line over at sigil headquarters.  I could tell you the problems I have with it but then our nice pleasant discussion might take a nasty turn.  Suffice to say that I am not at all enticed by this.

    In your next post you told Amathe that you were willing to give the game a try.  To each his own.  As it turns out I am not willing to give it a try based on faith or wishful thinking or any other intangible.  I know with absolute certainty that I won't be happy in a raiding game.  So there is really no reason at all for me to give them my money and encourage devs to make even more raiding games by adding even one more subscription to this one.

    By the same token, if they had a no-raids server I would very strongly consider playing the game even if I didn't like everything else about.  Just to encourage devs to get over the obsession with raiding.


    I respect that.  I hope we meet up in some other game then.  Good luck! 


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630



    Originally posted by gestalt11

    No this 20% thing is BS, and most of us know it on some level. 




    What amazes me is that almost no one ever presses Brad on this statistic. Let me give you an example. I played EQ for a long time. Sitting here today, I couldn't tell you how much content is solo, how much is group, and how much is raid, beyond a gut feeling. How would I quantify that? Do you count it using the number and type of mobs? The number and type of zones? The number and type of quests? Do you measure what people actually spend time doing? Or do you measure by what they would like to spend their time doing? There are about 100 ways that number could be arrived at, and he has never once said where it came from. If he changed it to 33 1/3, 33/13, and 33 1/3, without making a single change to the game, no one could dispute it because that number is pure fiction.

    People follow the carrots. If you put in 20% solo content, and it sucks, people will figure that out. Once they figure it out, they will quit the game (if they are devoted soloers) or avoid that content as much as possible. Under that scenario, is it still accurate to say 20% of the game is solo?

    Picture a dinner party. There are 20 beautiful people, 80 plain people and 20 ugly people. Who do you think will get flirted with all night long? The 20 beautiful people are 90% of who is getting asked out. In the same way, even if 1% of the game was raiding, if the other 99% of the game sucked everyone would be trying to raid. These numbers  don't inform us of anything.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by gestalt11

    No this 20% thing is BS, and most of us know it on some level.  People develop sterotypes and silly ideas about things and then they form groups on it.  You see it in WoW with classes and items, but it most evident in Guild Wars.

    The reason it is most evident in Guild Wars is there are in fact a number of different heal builds and for certain jobs a primary Monk is not actually the best.  A mesmer/monk with fact casting, may lack the extra healing umph but is a better "Oh crap" healer because his spell can cast twice as fast.  And yet what happens?  A lot of people who think they know what they are doing but do not actually know what they are doing only take Monk primaries.

    Same thing will happen with the raid gear in Vanguard. 

    Two things will happen:
    1) people who don't want to raid will be pissed because they will have neutered progression.
    2) there will be common gear stereotypes and non-raiders will be viewed as gimp and less desirable.


    I guarantee it.


    Note: #2 is mostly caused by min/maxers and idiots who can only see the obvious and not the subtle.  But if you think Vanguard won't have a number of those then you are sadly mistaken.

    I'm thinking that Vanguard may be different, at least if it's done the way I'm hoping it is.  It will take a really long time for players to discover most of the items within Vanguard, let alone the more desireable ones.  It will also take time to discover which items are better for certain areas than others. 

    Both crafting and diplomacy are unknowns as to how they will figure into the higher-end progression, that will take still more time to find out.

    So, in the end.  I'm betting that there will be plenty to keep me busy even if your two scenarios are true.  It's not like players can even wear raid-level gear until almost at level cap or at level cap.  For me, with a game like Vanguard; I probably won't even make it close to that level.  By the time I do - I'll probably be ready for something else anyway.  image


  • MX13MX13 Member Posts: 2,489

    I'm not a fan of Raiding, but I do have 2 points on this subject:

    1. VSoH version of Raiding is very different form what most are expecting. Raiding is a commen term, so don't assume what it means in this case, there is a TON of info out there on this in VSoH.
    2. Raiding is ANOTHER type of content, not the only or dominate type. It is a VERY smal % overall, and one of many options at high levels.

    I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!

    In fact, forget the SWG!!!!

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  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by Amathe
    ...
    People follow the carrots. If you put in 20% solo content, and it sucks, people will figure that out. Once they figure it out, they will quit the game (if they are devoted soloers) or avoid that content as much as possible. Under that scenario, is it still accurate to say 20% of the game is solo?
    ...

    If any portion of the game "sucks" I would hope they fix it so that it doesn't.  That would include the solo/casual, group, or raid. 

    Also, you'd still have to figure in content that "nobody was using" in your percentage; because there will always be an influx of new players that have never experienced it before. 

    Take the newbie areas of long-running games like EQ, UO, or DAoC.  Sure, they are pretty empty compared to the old days, but you can't really remove them or just stop making sure they still work because when a new player does start up, they need it.

    The solo/casual content from what Brad has said is meant to be more for when you don't have time to get into a full group, so you can just pop on for  an hour or so and still make some meaningful progress.  He has also stated that you could, albeit slowly; solo to max level.  I'd bet that would be a boring long gring though, and definitely not for me. 

    I guess I don't worry about the details or the long-game as much as some of you guys.  I look at game from the stand-point of: "Is this something me and my friends can have fun in?"  I could really care less about what level I get to, or what I accomplish in the game.  It's not a real easy thing to know if a game can provide it or not until I play it. 

    I've tried a lot of the games out there, and some had it and some didn't.  It wasn't really any fault of the games that didn't have it for me, it was just a feeling that I got when I tried them.  Usually a month or two is enough to know if the game is going to be fun for me or not. 


  • AkunaiAkunai Member Posts: 138

    Forgive me, but I always thought the biggest problem with raids were the items?  Items which can only be obtained through the raid.  Isn't that because the items are usually "bind on pick up", "soulbound", etc?  If a person could sell those raid items in an auction would there still be a problem?  I know ,in WoW, it was horrible to have to go raiding and see items broken for enchanting because nobody wanted to use their DKPs. 

    Of course this could lead to guilds monopolizing the market.  Though even with that, I think things would even out with time as more casual guilds began to gain strength.  I generally didn't like raiding and avoided it often even though I was in a heavy raiding guild in WoW.  They were one of the stronger guilds and wanted to be the "we did it first" group.  After a few weeks of that I ended up joining a more casual group and we raided maybe once a week and had fun. 

    So I wouldn't take out raid content all together, just take away the item exclusivity.  Because raids can be fun with the right people.  I wouldn't want the option to never do raid content.  Especially when those are generally the most graphically stunning, challenging, and epic events. 

    Bottom line, keep raids on all servers and make the rewards less unbalancing through various means.

    P.S.  I heard that the top tier gear would be crafted, so the item drops in raids could be those same crafted items which could also be good for the economy.  If the raid drops are craft components, just don't make them soulbound either.

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433



    Originally posted by dragonace



    Originally posted by Anofalye



    Originally posted by dragonace
    Also, you didn't really bring up the problem of all the rest of the raid content if you simply put all the gear on a merchant.  The places, the NPC's, the quests, etc.

    I think that's one of the biggest areas that we disagree on. 
    I see raiding as an addtional 20% of CONTENT that I probably won't use. 
    You see raiding as an additional 20% of ITEMS you don't have access to.

    If you put all the raid items on a merchant are you honestly going to tell me people are still going to go through the CONTENT just for the fun of it?  Heh, I'm thinking a lot more than me won't buy that one.

    I'm not sure if you've said it in so many words, but I get the impression that you think the ONLY reason to go through raid-content is for the ITEMS.  Well, if those very items are now on a merchant; exactly what would be the reason for experiencing that 20% of content then? 

    So, even though you say not to remove anything.  If you put the items on a merchant, you would be doing exactly that. 


    The idea is to get a raid-free server, to have an option to get the ITEMS to make you a better grouper without having to raid ever.

    But why even have the items in the first place on a raid-free server?  I guess I just don't see the point.  If all the raid content is removed, and the server is made so that every encounter takes that into account, then why even have the gear there in the first place?  

    Make it as interesting or as boring as you want, it is FAR better than raiding and the only reason I was ever raiding was for these items, you reduce the intolerable gring to an okay grind, which is a LOT better and I will do it in order to be better in the other aspects of the game.

    I see raiding as 20% of ITEMS I don't have access to IN ORDER TO PERFORM IN THE 80% REMAINING CONTENT.

    The reason I do it, is for the 80% remaining of the content.  Missing these items is unacceptable.  And I am not alone to think that way.

    Heh, I'm sure it looked good typing it down.  But, come on.  80% of the remaining content requires that 20%?  How was I able to complete any of the content I did then, considering I didn't acquire this raid-gear?  You will have to admit that a good portion of that 80% is accomplished just fine without a single bit coming from the other 20%.  So, then what percentage is actually needed from the 20% to complete the 80%.  I propose zero.  I know we disagree on that point, but that's the way I've played in my MMO's and it works for me. 

    (Yes, I know we are talking about a game that we haven't played yet, but assume that the 20% and 80% corresonds to whatever percentages from games that we have played. )






    I am getting extremely tired of repeating the same thing...but here goes, for the 903948395th time.

     

    The game is balanced with ALL gear into account.  If you remove 20% of the items, you just completely screw the balance.  The players will be weaker, and 80% is a lot.  See, in a group it is EXPONENTIAL, with each player.  So if 2 players are at 80%....80% X 80% = 64%...and it get worser with every addition.


    The loot in the raiding part is a CRUCIAL part in the balance and the equation the designers built for the game...

     

    Can someone succeed without it?  The point is not to answer yes or no here, the real question would be:  Is the game going to be enjoyable without this 20% gear?  And the answer is dramatic if the players are in the end-game.  Sure, in nooblands it won't change anything, but in the end-game for groupers, 20% less on each player is...80% 6 times...so, 0.8 X 0.8 X 0.8 X 0.8 X 0.8 X 0.8 =barely over 26%...so the group is incredibly weaker, and that is at the end of the road, all the way there is expontially more painfull.

     

    I am about to completely give up on Vanguard...I am so tired of always explaining the same basic, too bad if Vanguard fails, there will be other...oh well.

     

    EDIT: And I am not even bringing the EGO thing, I want to be the BEST grouper, period, if peoples are better at grouping on ANOTHER server, it is problematic as well.  Best groupers deserve to be groupers, not raiders, if you can't get that point, we won't agree on anything...If the peoples that group better than me, they are groupers, fine, I can accept that and try to improve, if they are raiders, I lose all respect for the game and just go away, to a game that is friendly to groupers, not some lame-enforcing foreign gameplays.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185
    Yeah, I agree Anofalye.  We are just not going to see each other's point of view.  Hope you find what you're looking for.  I'll give Vanguard a chance, but I'm not going to be grief-stricken if it turns out to not be what I was hoping for.  It's just a game afterall.


  • SlntasnSlntasn Member Posts: 711

    Why not add the gear in the form of quest rewards? It would eliminate the need for a different server, and would allow raiders to get their gear via raiding, groupers to get their gear via grouping, and soloers to get their gear via soloing.

    Granted the quests are scaled appropriately (Solo quests for raid-level gear would have to take quite a while to get, Grouping quests for that same gear will take a little less longer to get, but the encounters should be more difficult)

    Discuss! ::::08::

    image

  • SlntasnSlntasn Member Posts: 711


    Originally posted by Anofalye
    I want to be the BEST grouper, period, if peoples are better at grouping on ANOTHER server, it is problematic as well. Best groupers deserve to be groupers, not raiders.


    By best, you mean having the best items?

    Why can't you use the gear that you find by grouping? If the game was designed correctly, you should beable to do all of the group content by using the gear.. from the group content. If a person raids for a few hours, and finds an item, they should beable to use it at any time, even in groups. Not all raiders raid because it is fun, despite your odd philosophy about raiders (Nice speculation about raiders there by the way, Mr. Grouper). If they have a better item than you, that doesn't necessarily make them a better grouper, since you should beable to do all of the group content by using the group gear just fine.

    There is also something called an auction house/broker. You can get the coin -by grouping- and use it to buy the raid level gear, no?

    EDIT: spelling

    image

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185

    Originally posted by SLNTASN
    Why not add the gear in the form of quest rewards? It would eliminate the need for a different server, and would allow raiders to get their gear via raiding, groupers to get their gear via grouping, and soloers to get their gear via soloing.Granted the quests are scaled appropriately (Solo quests for raid-level gear would have to take quite a while to get, Grouping quests for that same gear will take a little less longer to get, but the encounters should be more difficult)Discuss! ::::08::

    They kinda did that in EQ with the Epics, but trouble is they were still unbalanced depending on your class.  Some classes Epics were worse than existing equipment and other classes Epics took 10 times longer to aquire than other classes.

    So in theory; if it was done correctly, it could work.  Trouble is, it would still make too many people upset.  You'd have one group saying they had to work 10 times as hard to acquire their stuff as another group.  Another group would be upset because they had to have 40 people take down the mob that dropped their stuff, yet another group got their stuff from something that could almost be soloed?  I just don't see it working out well.

    I'm still a big believer in the totally unique gear.  If you want it, you gotta get it in that area.  If you don't want to do that area, you don't get the stuff.  Big caveat though:  None of the stuff from one area is needed to complete another area.

    That way if you only like one area - you don't really have to leave and can acquire all the stuff from that area - and be totally happy.  If you like two of the areas - you can get all the stuff from those two - and never have to leave.  If you like all the areas - you can go ahead and acquire it from all the areas. 

    Yeah, I know, I know.  I'm probably living in a dream world.  But, it's my dream until I prove myself incorrect.  image
  • ZorgoZorgo Member UncommonPosts: 2,254

    "They leave all content for raiding in place, but take away the ability to form a raid.  Meaning that sure, you CAN go into any raid content you want, but you have to work through it with a normal sized group.  Not a lot of chance for success, but hey; the content is still there."

     

    someone may have addressed this already, I didn't read every post.....

    This idea is kinda null and void, I may be showing my mmo age, but EQ began with zero ability to 'form' a raid. You got 2, 3 or more groups together, used /ooc, /shout and /gu for instructions between groups and went at the content anyway. The group with the most damage got the xp and the other groups got zilcho...you still rolled for loot. So essentially, if they removed the raid mechanics, that wouldn't necessarily remove raids.

    More history..... raiding  is an idea that essentially was developped by the gamers and not the gaming developers. Players looked for alternative strategies to take down EQ content and it turned out that the most efficient way was to form a 'raid'. As the content began disappearing in ways the developers didn't intend, they had to start developing with this new player strategy in mind, leading to the modern vicious cycle of the raid content at the higher end.

    My second thought is; why would a non-raiding server be necessary? If you don't want to raid, join a casual, non-raiding guild.

    Is it that casual guilds fail because good players are in raiding guilds? If this is the logic, then those same players won't be on the non-raiding server.

    If you needed raid loot to take down non-raid content, I would understand, but you don't. Yeah it makes it a lot easier, in fact, it takes all the challenge away completely. Do you really need to kill that rat with a flaming sword of ominiscent power?

    These games are wide and varied enough that you should all be secure enough with yourselves to play the content you like (non-raiding, single group or solo) and be happy with the loot that will take down all the non-raiding, single group or solo content. Or does it just bug people to see uber toons running around with cool stuff you can't get...that sounds like a personal issue and not a game issue.

    Some may see the uber and say "man oh man, I wish I could get that item, but I hate raiding, so the only fair solution is to take away his ability to get items that I can't get".

    I see uber toons and say, "man oh man, that flaming sword of omniscent power shows me that this dude plays way too much computer....what a sad man."

    I think my approach is healthier, and it has never occured to me to sequester these sad folks cuz I like seeing toons of varying uberness running around the same server.

    Lastly, examine your rl philosophy....do you also believe that because there is a such a gap between rich and poor in this country that we should take all the uber items from the rich and powerful and either deny them access to it or redistribute it among the entire populous? In the real world, that's called communism...and I bet most of you on this forum are against it in rl....do you secretly wish your mmo was run by Karl Marx?

     

  • dragonacedragonace Member UncommonPosts: 1,185
    Heh - I agree with you Zorgo.  But yeah, you would have to read the entire thread to catch the gist of what we were hypothocising (is that a real word?).

    I am perfectly happy playing a game like I want to and ignore the areas I don't like.  That is not to say I like every game I play though.  That is just something that I find out from playing it.

    This thread was made more as a "what-if" scenario.  How would they run a server without any raid content?  That kind of a debate.



  • anarchyartanarchyart Member Posts: 5,378

    If you don't want to raid but still want the best weapons in the game, you really want a game that sucks. Imagine every casual player who solos walking around with the uber shield of death and the sword of hugeness. Every player would be able to get the best stuff, that would be kind of lame. If you disagree that's kewl, I'm not god. Just my opinion.

    Non raid server? That's crazy talk.

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  • JorevJorev Member Posts: 1,500

     It's a misconception that soloing is casual and raiding is hardcore. Soloing can be hardcore, you just have to design a game so that it is challenging on an individual basis as well and offer equal rewards for both playstyles based on the comparative difficulty. 

    Just because something is able to be accomplished solo does not mean everyone will be able to do it. It will still require individual skill and determination to acquire the best items solo in a game that is designed well.

    Take tailoring in old school EQ1 prior to Planes of Power for example. How many grandmaster tailors existed per server back then? Less than 5 per server because it was a bitch to master and required endless hours of dedication both to raise the skill and hunt for the ingredients, but it was soloable and yet challenging and the rewards were great for those who accomplished it.

    image
    "We feel gold selling and websites that promote it damage games like Vanguard and will do everything possible to combat it."
    Brad McQuaid
    Chairman & CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
    Executive Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
    www.vanguardsoh

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433



    Originally posted by anarchyart
    Non raid server? That's crazy talk.




    Test server, crazy talk.

     

    Premium server, crazy talk.

     

    Ironman server, crazy talk.

     

    Each server can be fine tuned to realize different goals, be it testing (test), appealing to hardcores (Ironman), appealing to rich folks (Premium) or appealing to groupers (Raid-free).

     

    DragonAce:  Hehe.  I understand your point of view.  If someone try to entertain me, I am nice with them, no matter if they are good or bad.  If they splash water on me and think I will find this funny, I kick that clown so he doesn't splash anyone again.  Enforcing a foreign gameplay while you say it is mostly designed for groupers (which is a blatant lie when you can't group to become the best grouper, this is such a basic need for a grouping game).  The clown who splash water on me, do a poor physical decision.  The devs who enforce raiding on me, they are worser than the clown who try to splash me...and re-read, I KICK that clown!  image  Since these devs use "psychic concepts", I will return it in the same form, I wouldn't kick them...but tell them that they are lames and lack and should read real designers, yeah, I can do that!  image  Peoples who laugh and think the clown is funny, I splash them...so peoples who support such a lame design that enforce raiding, I will show them pure raw hatred, eh, they ask for it!  image  Making a server where groupers can be the best groupers, this is a basic request they should have think on their own since they keep saying they are doing a grouping game...yet, for some reason, they keep enforcing such a lame gameplay as raiding, thinking it is great...well this is seriously lacking.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,908

    No. No. No.

    Game dev resources are finite, and every penny that is spent developing/ balancing/ moderating yet another new minority server is another penny not being invested into the core game. I like to solo now and again myself, and I don't raid that much, but I consider the 20% solo content stated and the fact that your don't have to raid to have access to top level gear (it can be gained via straight grouping, crafting ect) to be extremely inclusive of the majority of players in a MMORPG.

    That core game is very clear about what it aims to be, and tbh it's time certain people just accepted that and stopped this stupid crusade for a solo/ non raid server.

    VG is what it is, either get with it or move on eh? It does what it says on the tin... You don't buy beans and then complain it's not spaghetti.

    If you want solo play, buy one of the 1000s of solo games out there. Stop trying to dilute the single game that is catering primarily for groups with your own selfish needs.

    Thanks.

  • SamuraiswordSamuraisword Member Posts: 2,111

    Vanguard is not catering to groups, it's catering to raiding.

    When 20% of content is raid oriented and most of that content is the "end game", offering the best items available in the game, then what will group and solo oriented players be doing? Twiddling their thumbs? There is no alternative to earn equal quality gear by crafting or adventuring. Crafting in Vanguard is based on dependency to acquire the ingredients needed to make the best items, many of which will drop or be harvested in raid content. Raiding is the eclipse of adventuring difficulty so it will drop the best items. 

    The minority of gamers in the market are raiders, about 10% according to most polls. If Vanguard wants to market a game for raiders, which they clearly are doing, then that is fine, just be honest about it. Sigil was being honest about it originally, even saying " if you are looking for a game to solo in, then Vanguard is not for you". Since the partnership with SOE however, the advertising has been misleading and dishonest, promising that Vanguard will cater to all playstyles. This of course comes as no surprise since SOE is interested in market share and maximized profits which won't be achieved by catering to raiders only, and SOE has no qualms about lying. It's just a shame that Brad and company have become part of the deception machine and are being influenced by SOE.

    Vanguard will not appeal to group or solo players, it's all about raiding.

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