Originally posted by Wildcat84 Was it over when the Germans bombled Pearl Harbor? HELL NO! And it ain't over now!
Germans? Forget it he's rolling.
Who dumped a whole truckload of fizzies into the swim meet? Who delivered the medical-school cadavers to the alumni dinner? Every Halloween, the trees are filled with underwear....Every spring, the toilets explode.
I agree with those that say both sides have lost. SOE in there quest for the mythlogical playerbase that was suppose to drop what they were doing and come support a 3 year old game and those of us who enjoyed the game flawed though it was.
I know they must have thought hey its Star Wars the people will play it. Why they thought that is beyond me. I mean everyone who wanted to be a part of the Star Wars Universe was already there. Add to that its Science fiction and we all know how that crowd hates to read and pays no attention to details Instead of making it ever simpler and ever blander (Legacy) they should have polished the core game play and marketed to the expanding MMO Market as an adult game that once you have had your feel of directed content come make your own story here with us...........
So here we are with the wreckage all around us. SOE is tarred and feathered for its presumption and aragance. We lost our game. The work we put into it and the communitys we built gone in the sands of time. Seems pretty lose lose to me. Cheers all!
Originally posted by Antarious "Just how I see it. I also don't see any great thing coming about IF Lucas Arts licensed a Star Wars MMO to another third party. Sure you might get a good.. even better game at launch.. but in the long run I just see the same stupid crap happening.
Don't underestimate the awesome creative power of the Biowarians..."
You're missing the entire point of what I said. It doesn't matter how creative Bioware is.. when LA holds the license and has say over the game. I put at least half the blame if not more for the NGE on LA. Thus... BioWare with a Star Wars Galaxies type license just doesn't get me to any different destination. If you look at EP 1, 2, 3 and the upcoming TV show .. what age range do you think that targeted? Oddly the same that was believe to be the massive new market for the NGE. What SOE game out there targeted that same audience? What other SOE game... was ripped apart like SWG? That's why I find it a tad um creative to drop the NGE bomb on SOE. There have also been comments made that many choose to ignore... Regardless I don't care who ended up with a license if LA has any say in what is done with the game. I don't see myself not ending up at an NGE type destination. If they learned their lesson I should have classic servers already...
Christ Almighty, lighten up there buddy. Come out of thye basement, talk to some people, eat a steak at a restaurant.... The short comment was meant in good spirit so ease off the guns next time
Originally posted by zipit Originally posted by Antarious "Just how I see it. I also don't see any great thing coming about IF Lucas Arts licensed a Star Wars MMO to another third party. Sure you might get a good.. even better game at launch.. but in the long run I just see the same stupid crap happening. Don't underestimate the awesome creative power of the Biowarians..." You're missing the entire point of what I said. It doesn't matter how creative Bioware is.. when LA holds the license and has say over the game. I put at least half the blame if not more for the NGE on LA. Thus... BioWare with a Star Wars Galaxies type license just doesn't get me to any different destination. If you look at EP 1, 2, 3 and the upcoming TV show .. what age range do you think that targeted? Oddly the same that was believe to be the massive new market for the NGE. What SOE game out there targeted that same audience? What other SOE game... was ripped apart like SWG? That's why I find it a tad um creative to drop the NGE bomb on SOE. There have also been comments made that many choose to ignore... Regardless I don't care who ended up with a license if LA has any say in what is done with the game. I don't see myself not ending up at an NGE type destination. If they learned their lesson I should have classic servers already...
Christ Almighty, lighten up there buddy. Come out of thye basement, talk to some people, eat a steak at a restaurant.... The short comment was meant in good spirit so ease off the guns next time Just remember SOE has their emplyees posting on these forums to spin the whole thing against LA. People take their jobs VERY SERIOUSLY around here, and will lie, cheat, spin things any which way they can, to do Lord Smedley's bidding. At SOE, it's all about kissing the master's ass -- and has nothing to do with actually making a good product. Just remember the NGE was completely the work of SOE, and their Lead Designer and Lead gameplay designer had to SELL IT upstairs to LA. That's teh evidence we have as admitted by the employees themselves, as well as admitted by Brenlo, director of communications at SOE. Also at the summit, every time Julio (LA) got into it with a sticky question, the Brand Manager of SOE took the qustion from him. This was a SOE job all the way, and LA was duped. This was all done to protect the president of the company, John Smedley. HE still has his job, so it is working as intended, even though HE failed with this game, EQ2 (which has half the subs of EQ1 and was supposed to be bigger), and everything he has tried in the last few years.
I have a degree in economics and am a self-made millionaire. I am 44 and own my own house, two in fact. I am sure SOE wants this game to fail That is the only rational explanation. If this game fails and they successfully blame LA, people will just switch to Vanguard, and never play SWG2. That is the best they can hope for considering what a bad job they did. It's all about pointing fingers when a partnership goes bad. Happens all the time in the big leagues. Perhaps get out of YOUR basement, and read the Wall Street journal and the Economist, as I do regularly
If that were true, it would only prove that they are as bad at managing perception as they are at developing working game code and meeting customer expectations. Because clearly they have taken most of the blame from customers for the SWG fiasco. I'll never buy another game with the SOE label ... I'm just highly unlikely to buy another game with the LA label.
The NGE failure was a combination of over-estimating the gullibility of their customers and under-estimating the damage that word-of-mouth can do to a product in this industry. Apply Occam's Razor here and use the simplest explanation that fits the fact, requiring no murky conspiracy theories about trying to ruin somebody else's reputation to enhance your own: the product is bad and perceived as bad because the people responsible for producing it just aren't very good at their jobs. Never were, still aren't.
Originally posted by KzinKiller Originally posted by Fishermage
I have a degree in economics and am a self-made millionaire. I am 44 and own my own house, two in fact. I am sure SOE wants this game to fail That is the only rational explanation. If this game fails and they successfully blame LA, people will just switch to Vanguard, and never play SWG2. That is the best they can hope for considering what a bad job they did. It's all about pointing fingers when a partnership goes bad. Happens all the time in the big leagues. Perhaps get out of YOUR basement, and read the Wall Street journal and the Economist, as I do regularly If that were true, it would only prove that they are as bad at managing perception as they are at developing working game code and meeting customer expectations. Because clearly they have taken most of the blame from customers for the SWG fiasco. I'll never buy another game with the SOE label ... I'm just highly unlikely to buy another game with the LA label.
The NGE failure was a combination of over-estimating the gullibility of their customers and under-estimating the damage that word-of-mouth can do to a product in this industry. Apply Occam's Razor here and use the simplest explanation that fits the fact, requiring no murky conspiracy theories about trying to ruin somebody else's reputation to enhance your own: the product is bad and perceived as bad because the people responsible for producing it just aren't very good at their jobs. Never were, still aren't. They are in fact awful at both, but Smedley has managed to keep his job, and Koster has been effectively shivved. He has managed to defer blame away from himself and onto WoW, Koster, and partially LA. that's what the whole point of all this was, Protect the Smedley, and so far, that has worked like a charm. Plus Vanguard still signed with them, even with all the negative publicity. He managed to fool the makers of that game as well.
Originally posted by Fishermage They are in fact awful at both, but Smedley has managed to keep his job, and Koster has been effectively shivved. He has managed to defer blame away from himself and onto WoW, Koster, and partially LA. that's what the whole point of all this was, Protect the Smedley, and so far, that has worked like a charm. Plus Vanguard still signed with them, even with all the negative publicity. He managed to fool the makers of that game as well.
But Koster was shivved loooong before the NGE. I agree that Smedley's job retention speaks of enormous skill at "spinning" incredibly bad decisionmaking to his advantage, but that's a far cry from deliberately scheming to undermine the product you're responsible for in hopes of intangible future benefits to another product. I can't give Smed that much credit. He undermined his product by being a lousy decisionmaker with terrible resource-management skills, a quick-buck artist who doesn't give a damn about the long-term sustainability of a product or the long-term customer perception of his brand name.
The corporate world is full of guys like that. They keep their jobs by throwing good parties for their superiors and making sure they get lucky at the quarterly business meeting in Bangkok ... because they sure don't keep it by producing a quality product or sound business results.
Originally posted by KzinKiller Originally posted by Fishermage They are in fact awful at both, but Smedley has managed to keep his job, and Koster has been effectively shivved. He has managed to defer blame away from himself and onto WoW, Koster, and partially LA. that's what the whole point of all this was, Protect the Smedley, and so far, that has worked like a charm. Plus Vanguard still signed with them, even with all the negative publicity. He managed to fool the makers of that game as well.
But Koster was shivved loooong before the NGE. I agree that Smedley's job retention speaks of enormous skill at "spinning" incredibly bad decisionmaking to his advantage, but that's a far cry from deliberately scheming to undermine the product you're responsible for in hopes of intangible future benefits to another product. I can't give Smed that much credit. He undermined his product by being a lousy decisionmaker with terrible resource-management skills, a quick-buck artist who doesn't give a damn about the long-term sustainability of a product or the long-term customer perception of his brand name.
The corporate world is full of guys like that. They keep their jobs by throwing good parties for their superiors and making sure they get lucky at the quarterly business meeting in Bangkok ... because they sure don't keep it by producing a quality product or sound business results. Good point, but guys like that are also often vicious, spiteful, and when they something is gonna fail, they make damn sure it fails the way they wnat it to, which is what I am talking about. NOT that HE "made" it fail, but that he spun the failure in such a way as to hurt LA as much as possible. The shivving of Koster began as the inside running up for the CU began, and continued obviously until he left. When I speak of "making it fail" I am NOT speaking of the NGE's actual development. I am speaking of things as they are NOW, in the post NGE period, where they are destroying the game slowly, specifically NOT doing the thing/things that would bring back customers, while at the same time spinning things against LA. That is STILL working. Remember everything occurs in steps and stages, NOTHING happened overnight. I didn't start clamining they were intentionally failing (and spinning it the way I am describing) until ohh say five months ago. thatw as when one had to decide, either Smedley is so stupid he would fail Business 101, or he had something up his sleeve. Then we find Koster leaves SOE, and rumors of Bioware began. That was when Smed needed to HURT LA. That was also around the time he suckered Vanguard. All I can say is watch and see. Wait when SWG 2 comes out...watch what the secret shills from SOE post. Now they already are on these boards and others saying "LA forced the NGE" when we know the facts are quite the opposite. As I have said before, either Smedley is SO stupid as to be literally the dumbest man in the known universe, OR he is failing on purpose with SWG. All this was easy to see, and all of those of us with business experience all to a man predicted exactly what happened. Are we all THAT MUCH smarter than him? Or is there something else going on? I am still inclined to believe the latterm because I can't belive he is so stupid, to stupid to remember his way into work, which is how stupid he would have to be to make a blunder like this. I GUESS it's possible but I still give him more credit than that Plus well, it;s far more fun, and much more profitable for me, to believe he is evil and not merely the stupidest man who ever entered business, which again what he would have to be, if he didn't do this on purpose.
Originally posted by kanezfan It's over, go play something else, let your dollars do the talking.
I agree 100%.
If all the people still paying for this game who are not happy with it, would unsubscribe, it'd sunset next week, and the pain would finally stop, for everyone.
C
/agree with kanezfan too
I have stopped giving my money to SOE.
Unfortunately I have yet to find a game that was as good as Pre-CU SWG.
I know people knock mmorpgs that are too Simsy, but it worked in SWG, there was real interdependance, community and choice.. gotta stop now, the memories might come back and make me sad hehe
Good point, but guys like that are also often vicious, spiteful, and when they something is gonna fail, they make damn sure it fails the way they wnat it to, which is what I am talking about. NOT that HE "made" it fail, but that he spun the failure in such a way as to hurt LA as much as possible. The shivving of Koster began as the inside running up for the CU began, and continued obviously until he left. When I speak of "making it fail" I am NOT speaking of the NGE's actual development. I am speaking of things as they are NOW, in the post NGE period, where they are destroying the game slowly, specifically NOT doing the thing/things that would bring back customers, while at the same time spinning things against LA. That is STILL working. Remember everything occurs in steps and stages, NOTHING happened overnight. I didn't start clamining they were intentionally failing (and spinning it the way I am describing) until ohh say five months ago. thatw as when one had to decide, either Smedley is so stupid he would fail Business 101, or he had something up his sleeve. Then we find Koster leaves SOE, and rumors of Bioware began. That was when Smed needed to HURT LA. That was also around the time he suckered Vanguard. All I can say is watch and see. Wait when SWG 2 comes out...watch what the secret shills from SOE post. Now they already are on these boards and others saying "LA forced the NGE" when we know the facts are quite the opposite. As I have said before, either Smedley is SO stupid as to be literally the dumbest man in the known universe, OR he is failing on purpose with SWG. All this was easy to see, and all of those of us with business experience all to a man predicted exactly what happened. Are we all THAT MUCH smarter than him? Or is there something else going on? I am still inclined to believe the latterm because I can't belive he is so stupid, to stupid to remember his way into work, which is how stupid he would have to be to make a blunder like this. I GUESS it's possible but I still give him more credit than that Plus well, it;s far more fun, and much more profitable for me, to believe he is evil and not merely the stupidest man who ever entered business, which again what he would have to be, if he didn't do this on purpose. In the post-NGE period, I believe they're failing simply through (a) inadequate resources to accomplish the task (b) continued insistence on hammering a square peg into a round hole with incompatible CU/NGE code bases, and (c) less talented software engineering talent than at release. As the results continue to disappoint his superiors, Smed will continue to spin events in the best possible light for him. Surely LA will be a target, but so will his underlings, SOE's retail partners, and of course the primary villain he lays this on: US, the customers. We're just so haaaaard to please, it's not hiiiiiiis fault.
As for SWG2 ... nobody could be dumb enough to call a future Star Wars MMO that ... it would be like christening the Titanic 2 and trying to sign up people for the maiden voyage.
Originally posted by feldrin Originally posted by Linkman214 who honestly wins in war anyway?
who ever gets the contract to rebuild. in this case let's hope for bioware HAHAHA.. you just beat me. I was going to say "Halliburton"
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by KzinKiller Originally posted by Fishermage
Good point, but guys like that are also often vicious, spiteful, and when they something is gonna fail, they make damn sure it fails the way they wnat it to, which is what I am talking about. NOT that HE "made" it fail, but that he spun the failure in such a way as to hurt LA as much as possible. The shivving of Koster began as the inside running up for the CU began, and continued obviously until he left. When I speak of "making it fail" I am NOT speaking of the NGE's actual development. I am speaking of things as they are NOW, in the post NGE period, where they are destroying the game slowly, specifically NOT doing the thing/things that would bring back customers, while at the same time spinning things against LA. That is STILL working. Remember everything occurs in steps and stages, NOTHING happened overnight. I didn't start clamining they were intentionally failing (and spinning it the way I am describing) until ohh say five months ago. thatw as when one had to decide, either Smedley is so stupid he would fail Business 101, or he had something up his sleeve. Then we find Koster leaves SOE, and rumors of Bioware began. That was when Smed needed to HURT LA. That was also around the time he suckered Vanguard. All I can say is watch and see. Wait when SWG 2 comes out...watch what the secret shills from SOE post. Now they already are on these boards and others saying "LA forced the NGE" when we know the facts are quite the opposite. As I have said before, either Smedley is SO stupid as to be literally the dumbest man in the known universe, OR he is failing on purpose with SWG. All this was easy to see, and all of those of us with business experience all to a man predicted exactly what happened. Are we all THAT MUCH smarter than him? Or is there something else going on? I am still inclined to believe the latterm because I can't belive he is so stupid, to stupid to remember his way into work, which is how stupid he would have to be to make a blunder like this. I GUESS it's possible but I still give him more credit than that Plus well, it;s far more fun, and much more profitable for me, to believe he is evil and not merely the stupidest man who ever entered business, which again what he would have to be, if he didn't do this on purpose. In the post-NGE period, I believe they're failing simply through (a) inadequate resources to accomplish the task (b) continued insistence on hammering a square peg into a round hole with incompatible CU/NGE code bases, and (c) less talented software engineering talent than at release. As the results continue to disappoint his superiors, Smed will continue to spin events in the best possible light for him. Surely LA will be a target, but so will his underlings, SOE's retail partners, and of course the primary villain he lays this on: US, the customers. We're just so haaaaard to please, it's not hiiiiiiis fault.
As for SWG2 ... nobody could be dumb enough to call a future Star Wars MMO that ... it would be like christening the Titanic 2 and trying to sign up people for the maiden voyage. It's obviously already called KOTOR Online -- that name's a winner.
"Just remember SOE has their emplyees posting on these forums to spin the whole thing against LA. People take their jobs VERY SERIOUSLY around here, and will lie, cheat, spin things any which way they can, to do Lord Smedley's bidding. At SOE, it's all about kissing the master's ass -- and has nothing to do with actually making a good product. Just remember the NGE was completely the work of SOE, and their Lead Designer and Lead gameplay designer had to SELL IT upstairs to LA. That's teh evidence we have as admitted by the employees themselves, as well as admitted by Brenlo, director of communications at SOE. Also at the summit, every time Julio (LA) got into it with a sticky question, the Brand Manager of SOE took the qustion from him. This was a SOE job all the way, and LA was duped. This was all done to protect the president of the company, John Smedley. HE still has his job, so it is working as intended, even though HE failed with this game, EQ2 (which has half the subs of EQ1 and was supposed to be bigger), and everything he has tried in the last few years."
That is the real come out of the basement talk there.
I don't need anyone at SOE to convince me of anything.
If you watch that one thing you will glean from an SOE employee
Is that some decisions had to go all the way to George Luscas for approval. Which means of course that George was well aware of the game (as many used to say he'd probably never heard of it).
Then just take a lot at two things... try to let logic guide you.. I know its hard for us all.
Who has been the most anal about control of his IP... (george lucas anyone?)
What other SOE game has seen changes to the degree that SWG had? (um wow none)
The actual quote on the SWG forums was more or less...
They showed us a plan and asked us if we could build it. We said yes we could... that doesn't make it our plan.
That was the short version after one of the other SOE guys claimed it was all SOE.
Just before they went quiet for a while.
Then of course you had the Smedsters blog about how LA tied their hands and didn't understand online games.
Then of course the polls I get are for companies representing LA... not SOE... the ones I have to lie about my age to give feedback about SWG...
I'm not trying to say LA is 100% to blame but this crap about SOE did the NGE all on their own is just that crap.
As to another comment...
"Christ Almighty, lighten up there buddy. Come out of thye basement, talk to some people, eat a steak at a restaurant.... The short comment was meant in good spirit so ease off the guns next time"
I wish I had a basement...
I wasn't on the guns by the way buddy.
I was saying that no matter what talent creats a game based on a 3rd party IP. If they don't have control and total control of the game and its direction it won't matter.
Which wasn't a post gunning at you... it was a statement... in other words I wouldn't want to see a great company like Bio-Ware make a great game. Then say... oh sorry we gotta make an NGE now because there is 7 million 15 year olds that will play if we do.
I'm sorry if you took that as some personal attack.. I don't know you well enough to bother with one.
Actually... in the end we can all sit here spinning .. everything any way each ONE of us chooses to do so.
The fact or truth of the matter is.. it doesn't matter. The game is toast regardless of blame... I personally don't think classics at this point will make a difference.
And.. in my personal opinion I don't think another Star Wars MMO would have much of a chance... unless the developing company could clearly say THEY had total control over it.
If that happened and say BioWare was the one making it.. I'm sure a lot would try it at least.
Until that time... the only real purpose of these threads is to ... vent.
Originally posted by Antarious "Just remember SOE has their emplyees posting on these forums to spin the whole thing against LA. People take their jobs VERY SERIOUSLY around here, and will lie, cheat, spin things any which way they can, to do Lord Smedley's bidding. At SOE, it's all about kissing the master's ass -- and has nothing to do with actually making a good product. Just remember the NGE was completely the work of SOE, and their Lead Designer and Lead gameplay designer had to SELL IT upstairs to LA. That's teh evidence we have as admitted by the employees themselves, as well as admitted by Brenlo, director of communications at SOE. Also at the summit, every time Julio (LA) got into it with a sticky question, the Brand Manager of SOE took the qustion from him. This was a SOE job all the way, and LA was duped. This was all done to protect the president of the company, John Smedley. HE still has his job, so it is working as intended, even though HE failed with this game, EQ2 (which has half the subs of EQ1 and was supposed to be bigger), and everything he has tried in the last few years." That is the real come out of the basement talk there. I don't need anyone at SOE to convince me of anything. First off take a look at this video: http://media2.yahoo.com/player/games/?k=/genre/roleplaying/starwarsgalaxiesaned/6023592 If you watch that one thing you will glean from an SOE employee Is that some decisions had to go all the way to George Luscas for approval. Which means of course that George was well aware of the game (as many used to say he'd probably never heard of it). Then just take a lot at two things... try to let logic guide you.. I know its hard for us all. Who has been the most anal about control of his IP... (george lucas anyone?) What other SOE game has seen changes to the degree that SWG had? (um wow none) The actual quote on the SWG forums was more or less... They showed us a plan and asked us if we could build it. We said yes we could... that doesn't make it our plan. That was the short version after one of the other SOE guys claimed it was all SOE. Just before they went quiet for a while. Then of course you had the Smedsters blog about how LA tied their hands and didn't understand online games. Then of course the polls I get are for companies representing LA... not SOE... the ones I have to lie about my age to give feedback about SWG... I'm not trying to say LA is 100% to blame but this crap about SOE did the NGE all on their own is just that crap. As to another comment... "Christ Almighty, lighten up there buddy. Come out of thye basement, talk to some people, eat a steak at a restaurant.... The short comment was meant in good spirit so ease off the guns next time" I wish I had a basement... I wasn't on the guns by the way buddy. I was saying that no matter what talent creats a game based on a 3rd party IP. If they don't have control and total control of the game and its direction it won't matter. Which wasn't a post gunning at you... it was a statement... in other words I wouldn't want to see a great company like Bio-Ware make a great game. Then say... oh sorry we gotta make an NGE now because there is 7 million 15 year olds that will play if we do. I'm sorry if you took that as some personal attack.. I don't know you well enough to bother with one. Actually... in the end we can all sit here spinning .. everything any way each ONE of us chooses to do so. The fact or truth of the matter is.. it doesn't matter. The game is toast regardless of blame... I personally don't think classics at this point will make a difference. And.. in my personal opinion I don't think another Star Wars MMO would have much of a chance... unless the developing company could clearly say THEY had total control over it. If that happened and say BioWare was the one making it.. I'm sure a lot would try it at least. Until that time... the only real purpose of these threads is to ... vent.
In that I can buy you and sell you, have dated models, and don't rely on ad hominem to get my point across, I would suggest you think a bit deeper, and look at the evidence we have rather than your own shabby surmising. Just because LA approved of it all in no way means they had anything to do with the NGE. But then, obviously you;ve never spent any time in the real adult world of big business, so what would you know?
But then, you are doing their bidding, so who would know? Either way, you are working as intended, shill or dupe, doesn't matter. SOE should send you a check. Probably be more money than you'll ever see in your life
Oh, I have no doubt that SOE employees are among the most virulent (and irrational) "cheerleaders" who post here. Millions of dollars are at stake for them, you think they wouldnt' assign or at least encourage employees to post postive stuff here and defend every action?
Well the whole arguement of who to blame or not blame can go on forever. Fact is I blame them both. Because even if LA is totally responsibile, SOE could have stepped in and said something. But the fact is they didnt. And still dont. They continue to tell everyone how wonderful and happy happy joy joy the game is. Instead of stepping up and telling LA "Hey its messed up lets try something else." No one can sit here and tell me that LA wouldnt listen or accept a chance to make more money off of SWG if the chance presented itself.
Also the thing about what other SOE games has SOE rewritten. Planetside got a huge rewrite. EQ2 got two of them close to the sametimes that SWG got theirs. And from what a mate tells me MxO also got a rewrite.
SOE is just as much to blame as LA. Even more so because they didnt have the brass ones to tell LA "Hey this will hurt SWG." and they fething knew it would. Even Smedley the chimp knew it would hurt.
Originally posted by Wildcat84 Oh, I have no doubt that SOE employees are among the most virulent (and irrational) "cheerleaders" who post here. Millions of dollars are at stake for them, you think they wouldnt' assign or at least encourage employees to post postive stuff here and defend every action?
They are called viral marketers and everyone in the entertainment/media business uses them now. SONY is obviously no exception, and knowing what other chickanery they are "allegdly" involved with (just ask NYC Attourney general Elliot Spitzer how he feels about SONY), this would be no probski for them to be involved with. When a poster comes along and defends SOE and has nothing but ad hominem to back him up, one must ask oneself, what would lead a regular player to attack another player personally JUST to defend SONY and attack LA? One doesn't have to be in one's basement to suspect the motives of such people.
Once again, from Brenlo, director of communications for SOE: ""So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, to try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed. We can, and I am sure many of us will, debate for years on end whether this was a good idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different. Where did we go wrong? Delivery, we failed in our timing and communication. That is where we let you down most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize."""
Originally posted by Fishermage Once again, from Brenlo, director of communications for SOE: ""So, I wanted to clarify that we did, here at SOE conceive and develop the NGE. We did so with the best of intentions, to try and make a better game. No blame or buck is being passed. We can, and I am sure many of us will, debate for years on end whether this was a good idea. Personally, I believe the concept of the NGE was sound. Some smart guys had some good ideas to make the game better, Jeff being one of them, and they went for it. A bold move and honestly, I am happy to be a part of a company that is not afraid to try something different. Where did we go wrong? Delivery, we failed in our timing and communication. That is where we let you down most, SWG faithful, and for that I truly apologize."""
Where they went wrong was that the whole thing was as fun as drowning in dog poop.
Originally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by Wildcat84 Oh, I have no doubt that SOE employees are among the most virulent (and irrational) "cheerleaders" who post here. Millions of dollars are at stake for them, you think they wouldnt' assign or at least encourage employees to post postive stuff here and defend every action?
They are called viral marketers and everyone in the entertainment/media business uses them now. SONY is obviously no exception, and knowing what other chickanery they are "allegdly" involved with (just ask NYC Attourney general Elliot Spitzer how he feels about SONY), this would be no probski for them to be involved with. When a poster comes along and defends SOE and has nothing but ad hominem to back him up, one must ask oneself, what would lead a regular player to attack another player personally JUST to defend SONY and attack LA? One doesn't have to be in one's basement to suspect the motives of such people. I kinda have to agree with you there, Fisher. And it's odd, really, that we see so many folks that are "players" doing just such a thing. I also think it's more than a little odd that we have such a rabid hatefest between folks in the playerbase (past as well as present) as we've seen with SWG since the CU (which has only escalated in venom and hate with the NGE) on the many different forums that discuss SWG. I've honestly never seen this kind of thing before the whole SWG fiasco. It's almost disturbing.
And because of all this, I think we've all lost, and not merely in terms of what used to be our game.
It would not at all surprise me if some of the posters on the SOE forums, even a Senator or two are among them.
Look, SOE/LEC are mulibillion dollar companies, and SWG is (was) worth millions in revenue. Given how they have no qualms about lying to our faces time and again "The CU is here to stay" (this was literally posted there by a redname less than 2 months before the NGE was leaked), why doubt this?
SOE and LEC aren't the least bit interested in the truth, or in what anyone wants, unless it makes them money.
Originally posted by azhrarn Originally posted by Fishermage Originally posted by Wildcat84 Oh, I have no doubt that SOE employees are among the most virulent (and irrational) "cheerleaders" who post here. Millions of dollars are at stake for them, you think they wouldnt' assign or at least encourage employees to post postive stuff here and defend every action?
They are called viral marketers and everyone in the entertainment/media business uses them now. SONY is obviously no exception, and knowing what other chickanery they are "allegdly" involved with (just ask NYC Attourney general Elliot Spitzer how he feels about SONY), this would be no probski for them to be involved with. When a poster comes along and defends SOE and has nothing but ad hominem to back him up, one must ask oneself, what would lead a regular player to attack another player personally JUST to defend SONY and attack LA? One doesn't have to be in one's basement to suspect the motives of such people. I kinda have to agree with you there, Fisher. And it's odd, really, that we see so many folks that are "players" doing just such a thing. I also think it's more than a little odd that we have such a rabid hatefest between folks in the playerbase (past as well as present) as we've seen with SWG since the CU (which has only escalated in venom and hate with the NGE) on the many different forums that discuss SWG. I've honestly never seen this kind of thing before the whole SWG fiasco. It's almost disturbing.
And because of all this, I think we've all lost, and not merely in terms of what used to be our game. Now watch these supposed "players" attack me for saying so. Yes indeed we have lost much more than a game here -- I have the most pity for those who have actually sold their souls over this.
Originally posted by Wildcat84 It would not at all surprise me if some of the posters on the SOE forums, even a Senator or two are among them.
Look, SOE/LEC are mulibillion dollar companies, and SWG is (was) worth millions in revenue. Given how they have no qualms about lying to our faces time and again "The CU is here to stay" (this was literally posted there by a redname less than 2 months before the NGE was leaked), why doubt this?
SOE and LEC aren't the least bit interested in the truth, or in what anyone wants, unless it makes them money.
Note however that there are no "players" that come around attacking SOE and defending LA. All the viral marketing seems to be pro-SOE and anti-LA. I am the only guy forced to look like he is defending them, but that's just because I have this thing about getting the story straight, which comes from my days as a gonzo journalist. I always blame both for what they are to blame for -- Nancy McIntyre is no friend of mine, neither is Julio or Jim Ward. They obviously made some baaaad decisions and Julio downright lied to people on national television. They didn't design or develop this mess though, they approved and helped market it (well Jim Ward kinda ran from it and pretends it never happened, but that's another story). I do still find it MOST interesting that the shills on the Internet all seem to work for SOE, and NOT LA.
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I agree with those that say both sides have lost. SOE in there quest for the mythlogical playerbase that was suppose to drop what they were doing and come support a 3 year old game and those of us who enjoyed the game flawed though it was.
I know they must have thought hey its Star Wars the people will play it. Why they thought that is beyond me. I mean everyone who wanted to be a part of the Star Wars Universe was already there. Add to that its Science fiction and we all know how that crowd hates to read and pays no attention to details
Instead of making it ever simpler and ever blander (Legacy) they should have polished the core game play and marketed to the expanding MMO Market as an adult game that once you have had your feel of directed content come make your own story here with us...........
So here we are with the wreckage all around us. SOE is tarred and feathered for its presumption and aragance. We lost our game. The work we put into it and the communitys we built gone in the sands of time. Seems pretty lose lose to me. Cheers all!
Just remember SOE has their emplyees posting on these forums to spin the whole thing against LA. People take their jobs VERY SERIOUSLY around here, and will lie, cheat, spin things any which way they can, to do Lord Smedley's bidding. At SOE, it's all about kissing the master's ass -- and has nothing to do with actually making a good product. Just remember the NGE was completely the work of SOE, and their Lead Designer and Lead gameplay designer had to SELL IT upstairs to LA. That's teh evidence we have as admitted by the employees themselves, as well as admitted by Brenlo, director of communications at SOE. Also at the summit, every time Julio (LA) got into it with a sticky question, the Brand Manager of SOE took the qustion from him. This was a SOE job all the way, and LA was duped. This was all done to protect the president of the company, John Smedley. HE still has his job, so it is working as intended, even though HE failed with this game, EQ2 (which has half the subs of EQ1 and was supposed to be bigger), and everything he has tried in the last few years.
fishermage.blogspot.com
If that were true, it would only prove that they are as bad at managing perception as they are at developing working game code and meeting customer expectations. Because clearly they have taken most of the blame from customers for the SWG fiasco. I'll never buy another game with the SOE label ... I'm just highly unlikely to buy another game with the LA label.
The NGE failure was a combination of over-estimating the gullibility of their customers and under-estimating the damage that word-of-mouth can do to a product in this industry. Apply Occam's Razor here and use the simplest explanation that fits the fact, requiring no murky conspiracy theories about trying to ruin somebody else's reputation to enhance your own: the product is bad and perceived as bad because the people responsible for producing it just aren't very good at their jobs. Never were, still aren't.
If that were true, it would only prove that they are as bad at managing perception as they are at developing working game code and meeting customer expectations. Because clearly they have taken most of the blame from customers for the SWG fiasco. I'll never buy another game with the SOE label ... I'm just highly unlikely to buy another game with the LA label.
The NGE failure was a combination of over-estimating the gullibility of their customers and under-estimating the damage that word-of-mouth can do to a product in this industry. Apply Occam's Razor here and use the simplest explanation that fits the fact, requiring no murky conspiracy theories about trying to ruin somebody else's reputation to enhance your own: the product is bad and perceived as bad because the people responsible for producing it just aren't very good at their jobs. Never were, still aren't.
They are in fact awful at both, but Smedley has managed to keep his job, and Koster has been effectively shivved. He has managed to defer blame away from himself and onto WoW, Koster, and partially LA. that's what the whole point of all this was, Protect the Smedley, and so far, that has worked like a charm. Plus Vanguard still signed with them, even with all the negative publicity. He managed to fool the makers of that game as well.
fishermage.blogspot.com
But Koster was shivved loooong before the NGE. I agree that Smedley's job retention speaks of enormous skill at "spinning" incredibly bad decisionmaking to his advantage, but that's a far cry from deliberately scheming to undermine the product you're responsible for in hopes of intangible future benefits to another product. I can't give Smed that much credit. He undermined his product by being a lousy decisionmaker with terrible resource-management skills, a quick-buck artist who doesn't give a damn about the long-term sustainability of a product or the long-term customer perception of his brand name.
The corporate world is full of guys like that. They keep their jobs by throwing good parties for their superiors and making sure they get lucky at the quarterly business meeting in Bangkok ... because they sure don't keep it by producing a quality product or sound business results.
But Koster was shivved loooong before the NGE. I agree that Smedley's job retention speaks of enormous skill at "spinning" incredibly bad decisionmaking to his advantage, but that's a far cry from deliberately scheming to undermine the product you're responsible for in hopes of intangible future benefits to another product. I can't give Smed that much credit. He undermined his product by being a lousy decisionmaker with terrible resource-management skills, a quick-buck artist who doesn't give a damn about the long-term sustainability of a product or the long-term customer perception of his brand name.
The corporate world is full of guys like that. They keep their jobs by throwing good parties for their superiors and making sure they get lucky at the quarterly business meeting in Bangkok ... because they sure don't keep it by producing a quality product or sound business results.
Good point, but guys like that are also often vicious, spiteful, and when they something is gonna fail, they make damn sure it fails the way they wnat it to, which is what I am talking about. NOT that HE "made" it fail, but that he spun the failure in such a way as to hurt LA as much as possible. The shivving of Koster began as the inside running up for the CU began, and continued obviously until he left. When I speak of "making it fail" I am NOT speaking of the NGE's actual development. I am speaking of things as they are NOW, in the post NGE period, where they are destroying the game slowly, specifically NOT doing the thing/things that would bring back customers, while at the same time spinning things against LA. That is STILL working. Remember everything occurs in steps and stages, NOTHING happened overnight. I didn't start clamining they were intentionally failing (and spinning it the way I am describing) until ohh say five months ago. thatw as when one had to decide, either Smedley is so stupid he would fail Business 101, or he had something up his sleeve. Then we find Koster leaves SOE, and rumors of Bioware began. That was when Smed needed to HURT LA. That was also around the time he suckered Vanguard. All I can say is watch and see. Wait when SWG 2 comes out...watch what the secret shills from SOE post. Now they already are on these boards and others saying "LA forced the NGE" when we know the facts are quite the opposite. As I have said before, either Smedley is SO stupid as to be literally the dumbest man in the known universe, OR he is failing on purpose with SWG. All this was easy to see, and all of those of us with business experience all to a man predicted exactly what happened. Are we all THAT MUCH smarter than him? Or is there something else going on? I am still inclined to believe the latterm because I can't belive he is so stupid, to stupid to remember his way into work, which is how stupid he would have to be to make a blunder like this. I GUESS it's possible but I still give him more credit than that Plus well, it;s far more fun, and much more profitable for me, to believe he is evil and not merely the stupidest man who ever entered business, which again what he would have to be, if he didn't do this on purpose.
fishermage.blogspot.com
fishermage.blogspot.com
If all the people still paying for this game who are not happy with it, would unsubscribe, it'd sunset next week, and the pain would finally stop, for everyone.
C
/agree with kanezfan too
I have stopped giving my money to SOE.
Unfortunately I have yet to find a game that was as good as Pre-CU SWG.
I know people knock mmorpgs that are too Simsy, but it worked in SWG, there was real interdependance, community and choice.. gotta stop now, the memories might come back and make me sad hehe
In the post-NGE period, I believe they're failing simply through (a) inadequate resources to accomplish the task (b) continued insistence on hammering a square peg into a round hole with incompatible CU/NGE code bases, and (c) less talented software engineering talent than at release. As the results continue to disappoint his superiors, Smed will continue to spin events in the best possible light for him. Surely LA will be a target, but so will his underlings, SOE's retail partners, and of course the primary villain he lays this on: US, the customers. We're just so haaaaard to please, it's not hiiiiiiis fault.
As for SWG2 ... nobody could be dumb enough to call a future Star Wars MMO that ... it would be like christening the Titanic 2 and trying to sign up people for the maiden voyage.
HAHAHA.. you just beat me. I was going to say "Halliburton"
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
In the post-NGE period, I believe they're failing simply through (a) inadequate resources to accomplish the task (b) continued insistence on hammering a square peg into a round hole with incompatible CU/NGE code bases, and (c) less talented software engineering talent than at release. As the results continue to disappoint his superiors, Smed will continue to spin events in the best possible light for him. Surely LA will be a target, but so will his underlings, SOE's retail partners, and of course the primary villain he lays this on: US, the customers. We're just so haaaaard to please, it's not hiiiiiiis fault.
As for SWG2 ... nobody could be dumb enough to call a future Star Wars MMO that ... it would be like christening the Titanic 2 and trying to sign up people for the maiden voyage.
It's obviously already called KOTOR Online -- that name's a winner.
fishermage.blogspot.com
"Just remember SOE has their emplyees posting on these forums to spin the whole thing against LA. People take their jobs VERY SERIOUSLY around here, and will lie, cheat, spin things any which way they can, to do Lord Smedley's bidding. At SOE, it's all about kissing the master's ass -- and has nothing to do with actually making a good product. Just remember the NGE was completely the work of SOE, and their Lead Designer and Lead gameplay designer had to SELL IT upstairs to LA. That's teh evidence we have as admitted by the employees themselves, as well as admitted by Brenlo, director of communications at SOE. Also at the summit, every time Julio (LA) got into it with a sticky question, the Brand Manager of SOE took the qustion from him. This was a SOE job all the way, and LA was duped. This was all done to protect the president of the company, John Smedley. HE still has his job, so it is working as intended, even though HE failed with this game, EQ2 (which has half the subs of EQ1 and was supposed to be bigger), and everything he has tried in the last few years."
That is the real come out of the basement talk there.
I don't need anyone at SOE to convince me of anything.
First off take a look at this video:
http://media2.yahoo.com/player/games/?k=/genre/roleplaying/starwarsgalaxiesaned/6023592
If you watch that one thing you will glean from an SOE employee
Is that some decisions had to go all the way to George Luscas for approval. Which means of course that George was well aware of the game (as many used to say he'd probably never heard of it).
Then just take a lot at two things... try to let logic guide you.. I know its hard for us all.
Who has been the most anal about control of his IP... (george lucas anyone?)
What other SOE game has seen changes to the degree that SWG had? (um wow none)
The actual quote on the SWG forums was more or less...
They showed us a plan and asked us if we could build it. We said yes we could... that doesn't make it our plan.
That was the short version after one of the other SOE guys claimed it was all SOE.
Just before they went quiet for a while.
Then of course you had the Smedsters blog about how LA tied their hands and didn't understand online games.
Then of course the polls I get are for companies representing LA... not SOE... the ones I have to lie about my age to give feedback about SWG...
I'm not trying to say LA is 100% to blame but this crap about SOE did the NGE all on their own is just that crap.
As to another comment...
"Christ Almighty, lighten up there buddy. Come out of thye basement, talk to some people, eat a steak at a restaurant.... The short comment was meant in good spirit so ease off the guns next time"
I wish I had a basement...
I wasn't on the guns by the way buddy.
I was saying that no matter what talent creats a game based on a 3rd party IP. If they don't have control and total control of the game and its direction it won't matter.
Which wasn't a post gunning at you... it was a statement... in other words I wouldn't want to see a great company like Bio-Ware make a great game. Then say... oh sorry we gotta make an NGE now because there is 7 million 15 year olds that will play if we do.
I'm sorry if you took that as some personal attack.. I don't know you well enough to bother with one.
Actually... in the end we can all sit here spinning .. everything any way each ONE of us chooses to do so.
The fact or truth of the matter is.. it doesn't matter. The game is toast regardless of blame... I personally don't think classics at this point will make a difference.
And.. in my personal opinion I don't think another Star Wars MMO would have much of a chance... unless the developing company could clearly say THEY had total control over it.
If that happened and say BioWare was the one making it.. I'm sure a lot would try it at least.
Until that time... the only real purpose of these threads is to ... vent.
But then, you are doing their bidding, so who would know? Either way, you are working as intended, shill or dupe, doesn't matter. SOE should send you a check. Probably be more money than you'll ever see in your life
TTFN, big man.
fishermage.blogspot.com
Also the thing about what other SOE games has SOE rewritten. Planetside got a huge rewrite. EQ2 got two of them close to the sametimes that SWG got theirs. And from what a mate tells me MxO also got a rewrite.
SOE is just as much to blame as LA. Even more so because they didnt have the brass ones to tell LA "Hey this will hurt SWG." and they fething knew it would. Even Smedley the chimp knew it would hurt.
Kai
fishermage.blogspot.com
fishermage.blogspot.com
I kinda have to agree with you there, Fisher. And it's odd, really, that we see so many folks that are "players" doing just such a thing. I also think it's more than a little odd that we have such a rabid hatefest between folks in the playerbase (past as well as present) as we've seen with SWG since the CU (which has only escalated in venom and hate with the NGE) on the many different forums that discuss SWG. I've honestly never seen this kind of thing before the whole SWG fiasco. It's almost disturbing.
And because of all this, I think we've all lost, and not merely in terms of what used to be our game.
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Look, SOE/LEC are mulibillion dollar companies, and SWG is (was) worth millions in revenue. Given how they have no qualms about lying to our faces time and again "The CU is here to stay" (this was literally posted there by a redname less than 2 months before the NGE was leaked), why doubt this?
SOE and LEC aren't the least bit interested in the truth, or in what anyone wants, unless it makes them money.
I kinda have to agree with you there, Fisher. And it's odd, really, that we see so many folks that are "players" doing just such a thing. I also think it's more than a little odd that we have such a rabid hatefest between folks in the playerbase (past as well as present) as we've seen with SWG since the CU (which has only escalated in venom and hate with the NGE) on the many different forums that discuss SWG. I've honestly never seen this kind of thing before the whole SWG fiasco. It's almost disturbing.
And because of all this, I think we've all lost, and not merely in terms of what used to be our game.
Now watch these supposed "players" attack me for saying so. Yes indeed we have lost much more than a game here -- I have the most pity for those who have actually sold their souls over this.
fishermage.blogspot.com
fishermage.blogspot.com
Exactly. I attack SOE and LEC equally. It's LEC's fault for not being in touch with the players, and not in preventing the CUNGE.
By rubberstamping they are equally guilty.
But the CUNGE was SOE's idea. They deserve the blame for that. But as I said, LEC could have prevented it.