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That's it for MMORPGs, bring on the next genre
Rekrul
Member Posts: 2,961
First strategy game: Civilization
First RTS: Dune
First adventure: King's quest or Monkey Island
First FPS: Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake
Funny thing is, these aren't the first ones. They are the first to hit it big time and enter the history. One entry is missing:
First MMORPG: EQ, World of Warcraft
In some cases, descendants from those games outlived the originals. Command and conquer and Warcraft are legacy of Dune. Adventure genre died, and never produced anything above the Sierra and LA series. Unreal and Half-life are the descendants of the ID era, but they don't show anything new as such. Just better graphics and a few more weapon tricks.
So, what's the next genre?
This is also, why the UO/SWG sandbox design is a thing of the history. All descendants of those games shared one common trait. Exactly the same gameplay.
There were alternatives to Civilization style, but only titles that survived were the clones, most notably the Microprose series: Master of ... . There were other FPS out there, but only the Quake and Unreal engines were the contendants. They defined the WASD concept. Just about all adventures shared the hybrid Sierra/LA interface and gameplay. Dreamweb was a notable exception.
And WoW. It's glorified EQ.
RIP SWG. The MMORPG as it existed is over. Now we need to wait for the next one to come around.
Just some food for thought.
First RTS: Dune
First adventure: King's quest or Monkey Island
First FPS: Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake
Funny thing is, these aren't the first ones. They are the first to hit it big time and enter the history. One entry is missing:
First MMORPG: EQ, World of Warcraft
In some cases, descendants from those games outlived the originals. Command and conquer and Warcraft are legacy of Dune. Adventure genre died, and never produced anything above the Sierra and LA series. Unreal and Half-life are the descendants of the ID era, but they don't show anything new as such. Just better graphics and a few more weapon tricks.
So, what's the next genre?
This is also, why the UO/SWG sandbox design is a thing of the history. All descendants of those games shared one common trait. Exactly the same gameplay.
There were alternatives to Civilization style, but only titles that survived were the clones, most notably the Microprose series: Master of ... . There were other FPS out there, but only the Quake and Unreal engines were the contendants. They defined the WASD concept. Just about all adventures shared the hybrid Sierra/LA interface and gameplay. Dreamweb was a notable exception.
And WoW. It's glorified EQ.
RIP SWG. The MMORPG as it existed is over. Now we need to wait for the next one to come around.
Just some food for thought.
Comments
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Not sure what you're trying to say here. First you state several game genres and you talk as if they are factually dead.
And yet...
+Civ came out with a new game last year.
+King's Quest is done, but there are plenty of fantasy adventures out there. (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, series etc)
Doom and Quake have been succeeded by Unreal and Half-life which you state.
But are you pronouncing MMO's dead?
You may be correct, they may not evolve much beyond what they have, but you've proven yourself that genres don't die, they just advance how they look and add a few tricks here and there.
You are also correct that there will be a new genre that becomes the next rage, but I believe the reports of the death of MMO's have been greatly exagerated.
EDIT: Upon rereading your post it seems you are trying to say
a) SWG Pre-CU is gone and nobody will make a game the same. Let it go.
b) MMO's are done evolving. They will all be the same as we've already seen. What's next?
Not sure if it's a or b but I think this is what you're saying. Still not 100%.
Does Doom/Quake legacy offer anything new? Graphics. Insane graphics. That's about it.
These genres didn't advance, they just turned into a specialized niche. None of them evolved.
I never said death. MMORPGs have reached the pinnacle, it's time for new genre to emerge. From now on, the legacy will follow the WoW example, as WoW followed EQ. But UO/SWG sandbox aproach has died in the MMORPG genre.
The MMORPG (not MMO) Genre has been defined. There's nothing left to do here. Better graphics, more mobs, more loot. That's about it. This is what MMORPG will be known as. Not for sandbox elements, but for graphics-heavy item/level grindfests. SWG will make history, a very big chapter, but it won't leave legacy in the genre.
Does Doom/Quake legacy offer anything new? Graphics. Insane graphics. That's about it.
These genres didn't advance, they just turned into a specialized niche. None of them evolved.
I never said death. MMORPGs have reached the pinnacle, it's time for new genre to emerge. From now on, the legacy will follow the WoW example, as WoW followed EQ. But UO/SWG sandbox aproach has died in the MMORPG genre.
The MMORPG (not MMO) Genre has been defined. There's nothing left to do here. Better graphics, more mobs, more loot. That's about it. This is what MMORPG will be known as. Not for sandbox elements, but for graphics-heavy item/level grindfests. SWG will make history, a very big chapter, but it won't leave legacy in the genre.
You're forgetting about a great sandbox game which I currently play, EVE Online. It is more sandbox than UO or SWG, and more lawless
Rekrul-->"The MMORPG (not MMO) Genre has been defined. There's nothing left to do here. Better graphics, more mobs, more loot. That's about it. This is what MMORPG will be known as. Not for sandbox elements, but for graphics-heavy item/level grindfests. SWG will make history, a very big chapter, but it won't leave legacy in the genre."
Personally, I think you're wrong. On all counts.
The sandbox game is not dead by a long shot. Saga of Ryzom is proof of that. And now that they are starting to add content and gaining momentum with new subscriptions, the future for more of these types of games becomes brighter.
SWG will leave one of the biggest legacies ever, for it's original gameplay as well as a blueprint for developers who want to see an example of development gone wrong. It leaves a legacy of games being for the gamer, not the developer, and what happens when you forget that very basic principle.
The only thing I found agreeable with your post is that yes, there will be better graphics, more mobs, and more loot. None of these things take away from a sandbox game, but can add greatly to one if done right
If you walk to someone in 10 years, and ask them what they played, which MMORPG they remember most, what will be their answer? 97% will say WoW. The rest will say something else.
This has simply to do with market penetration.
Once you have TV series making spoofs on video games, that is when you know a game became common knowledge.
Just google it. "To google" didn't exist before Google Corp. made it's engine a household name.
This isn't about sentimentality or overzealous game debate. Ask anyone to name an MMORPG. They'll name WoW. 3 letters, one game, "W.O.W". Not, "a sandbox game, similar to UO, but different, with a special menu for pets and an addition in patch 17, when Saga of Ryzom became the best sandbox game.", but "WoW".
There have always been other games, and there always will be. But the genre has been defined. Everything else, is a niche that will remain a sentimental memory in hearts of the fans.
As such, the MMORPG can no longer do a 180. Many here complain over NGE's simplicity. It gets worse. Every new game coming out now, will attract ex-WoW players. And those aren't just the typical "Oh, I beta tested UO, and I played MUDs and I do DnD" people. These are the unwashed masses. And anything that will not be WoW will be a broken game to them.
Are they really looking for a more in-depth game? For something with more complexity? For something that requires deeper involvement?
If so, why are they playing WoW in the first place. Unlike MMORPG vets, who say there's nothing else to play, those joined WoW because they liked the game. Nah, they don't want deeper games. It's why they like WoW. Shinies, trinkets, glitter and polish in the most basic of games. If they wanted deep experience, they'd seek out such games before. WoW's marketing hype helps. But can you imagine a game with more auto-hype than SWG had around the release of Ep3. Look at where it's now. NGE or not, hype only goes thus far.
WoW is where it's at. Until a new genre defines it's own EQ and UO.
People keep discounting the fact the WoW was not buggy and SWG was a bug ridden mess. If SWG was not released early in a broken state, a state in which the sandbox was never completed, we might be talking about WoW as a blip on the radar and wondering if anybody could top SWG.
If WoW succeeded in one thing, it was in educating its investors and executives that the surest way to failure would be to rush to market before it was ready. As it was, they did not have near enough servers and that cost them early. WoW is quite simply the only "MMORPG" that you have faith in working as advertised.
Until somebody builds a great sandbox MMO and actually finishes the job we will never know.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
"SEED Online" is a bee-u-ti-ful example of this. The premise was iffy to begin with (non-combat MMO), but it may have actually had a chance to find a niche if Runestone hadn't be patently stupid and made the game go live before it was even done with Beta. I realize other games have done this and eventually gotten things somewhat right and survived (I no longer consider that SWG is "surviving"; it now just "exists" as a training project for fresh-out-of-school developers), but I think "SEED" and "Dark and Light" are examples that such tactics will no longer be tolerated, especially after Blizzard has set such a high standard.
a) Build a game that's based on tried and true concepts, that uses conventional graphics, that has low entry threshold
b) Build a game there's based on unproven (or disastrous) concepts, that uses insane resources to operate and is based around required long term, high entry threshold
Yep. Sandboxes are gone.
Zeppelins were a great concept. Rigid structure, comfortable travel, insane load capacity.
Today, you only see blimps. No structure, minimal load capacity, used for sight-seeing, not travel.
Zeppelins cannot regain ground. They can be build in a safe way, but they are expensive, there's huge ammount of negative press and prejudice around them, and the knowledge of how to build them is lost.
Blimps on the other hand, are extremly simple. They are a balloon. They are inherently safe, based off same concepts that balloon makers use, and they are encountered daily.
There are plans for building the CargoLifter, but that project has been lost in bureaucracy. Will Zeppelins once again rule the skies? No. For the cost of one Zeppelin, you can build dozen blimps. And most of all, there's no need for Zeppelins. They no longer serve the purpose of travel, their lifting capabilities are marred by their inherent control issues due to weight and surface area, and they require a whole degree higher quality engineering.
Simplicity always wins.
"SEED Online" is a bee-u-ti-ful example of this. The premise was iffy to begin with (non-combat MMO), but it may have actually had a chance to find a niche if Runestone hadn't be patently stupid and made the game go live before it was even done with Beta. I realize other games have done this and eventually gotten things somewhat right and survived (I no longer consider that SWG is "surviving"; it now just "exists" as a training project for fresh-out-of-school developers), but I think "SEED" and "Dark and Light" are examples that such tactics will no longer be tolerated, especially after Blizzard has set such a high standard.
In case you haven't heard, seed shut down. They ran out of money. Nobody would invest into it.
See my Zeppelin example.
You can build them today. You can use them for some function. But the cost of doing so is too high to ever get ROI.
If you want to create a high-quality, launch ready game, you need to spend 80-90% of your development time on polish. You can only do that, if everything is a constant. The only way to bring everything else down to a constant factor, is by using only and only known concepts. Experimentation and research are expensive.
This isn't about whether a high-quality sandbox MMORPG can be made to rival WoW. Von Neumann has proven long ago that it can be made. But the market is too small for it. It's not commercially viable. That is the real problem.
I guess in case of games, one could argue it's Intelligent Design.
Not in case of SOE obviously.
I guess in case of games, one could argue it's Intelligent Design.
Not in case of SOE obviously.
Good one Rekrul.
It's like God created a big Sandbox and let it evolve from there. Last time I checked, there were 7 billion humans subscribing to that sandbox RPG. So see...sandboxes do work.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
That is the big problem for MMORPG, the next Generation is simple casual player friend MMORPG were you can play 20 mins a day and still progress rapidly. The reason is simple, there are far greater numbers of casual players to tap into like WOW has then there are player who are willing to spend a few hours a night online playing. A good example are games like Vanguard and STO these were some games that were going to be complex games, unfortunately they are all being changed, with minor changes that are making them less complex then what was originally planed, they are being simplified. There is eventually two choices that are coming towards MMO players to make, one, they either adapt and change their game playing styles to suit the simplified game playing structure for casual gamers, or two, they don’t play MMO’s anymore. Bring it on down.
Damn byotch dat aint no friggn moon fool, dat be a friggn space station byotch.
You already see this effect with Eve Online. It is absorbing the more sophisticated MMORPG players bailing out of the NGE and from WoW. The industry will follow the playerbase. Right now, the playerbase likes WoW. They'll grow out of it.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
You're wrong. WoW is successful because it IS simple. I love WoW. It's fun to me. I hate NGE, it's crap, and I loved pre-CU, it was so open, free. WoW works so well because it's basically a single player legend of zelda that you play with other people. It's not simple to the point that NGE is simple. Belive me, I used to think WoW was the spawn of satan, but I finally got into it and I've come to really enjoy it.
The point though, is that WoW will not go down in flames unless they pull an SOE. And it'll be a while before people are ored to tears in WoW. The people that play WoW didn't want a pre-CU game, otherwise we'd be playing it right now. WoW is successful because it is linear, because it lays out a clear path for you to follow. People don't want to think, people don't want to use their imagination, people want to watch TV and read books with pictures in them. You have to stop believing that there will be a wildly successful (WoW standards) sandbox MMO.
god i cant wait for that game
Games i'm playing right now...
"In short, I thought NGE was a very bad idea" - Raph Koster talking about NGE on his blog at raphkoster.com
the first mmo isn't EQ or WoW , it's neverwinter nights.. the pay per hour mmo by AOL (no not the bioware rpg). some loved it some hated it but it started the addiction that made mmo's a profitable idea for investors and developers.
first strategy game : definitely not civ.. herzog zwei or stonkers predated it... i'm not sure what is the first one per se but somewhere around 1982-1983
first action game : well you mean fps's then i'd go for maze wars.
first adventure game : tough one. few people know that it was colossal cave adventure.
and so forth... just because a game has commerical success does not make it original , it just makes it well sold. your point is still good though the mmorpg genre has reached it's peak and will die off in the next years
Now THAT's something I can get on board with.
Leisure Suit Larry Online.
So I started to walk into the water. I won't lie to you boys...I was terrified. But I pressed on, and as I made my way past the breakers, a strange calm came over me. I don't know if it was divine intervention or the kinship of all living things, but I tell you, Jerry, at that moment ... I was a marine biologist.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0