Snoop SOE E SOE

JestorRodo · October 2006

From SWG site :

Launchpad Data Collection - Wednesday October 4th

Here at SOE, we are dedicated to providing our players with a world-class gaming experience. As our player base grows and changes, so do the many variations in system configuration, and we find it necessary to learn more about the systems being used to enjoy SOE products. While the system information already provided on a volunteer basis has been helpful, it presents an incomplete picture of the wide variety of system configurations used to play SOE games.

When Star Wars Galaxies players login beginning on Wednesday, October 4th, SOE will begin collecting data to assemble a more complete picture of the systems currently using the SOE family of products. We will gather some basic hardware information from those systems logging into SWG, which includes the following;

Operating system and version
Processor type and speed
Total RAM
Video card type and memory
Total Hard Drive Capacity.

Launchpad will be used to gather this data when it is initialized to start a gameplay session. There will be no intrusion into your computer nor will any software be installed to monitor your system. The information gathered will be anonymous and not associated with a specific user.

We appreciate your assistance in helping SOE to continue to offer our products to such a varied customer base. Thank you all for being a part of the SOE family.

Sony Online Entertainment

Its none of their damn business , anonymous or otherwise. This is information for marketing purpose SOE they can sell sheep eq2 and the incoming Unreal3 engine DC universe. The bad shepard, once again fleece his flock.

Obraik · October 2006

If you're running Windows XP (or Vista or Office), Microsoft also know this information. They collect it all when you install and activate Windows or Office and when you upgrade beyond the threshold you have to activate again and re-update that info There's also that Windows validation tool that checks your computer every 3 weeks to make sure your copy of Windows is valid (used to be everytime you logged in to Windows).

WoW monitors what programs you have running and if it thinks you're running a program that is used for hacking, your account is banned.

Computer monitoring is common in this day and age by many software companies.

JestorRodo · October 2006

Well Obraik, Microsoft supports its OS. SOE supports no one but themselves.

As far as WoW monitors hacking software , I am sure its used by gold farmers in game.

I have Mcafee monitor my system and I hope someone is Monitoring yours as well.

Vastar · October 2006

Originally posted by Obraik

If you're running Windows XP (or Vista or Office), Microsoft also know this information. They collect it all when you install and activate Windows or Office and when you upgrade beyond the threshold you have to activate again and re-update that info There's also that Windows validation tool that checks your computer every 3 weeks to make sure your copy of Windows is valid (used to be everytime you logged in to Windows).
WoW monitors what programs you have running and if it thinks you're running a program that is used for hacking, your account is banned.
Computer monitoring is common in this day and age by many software companies.

Yeah but with MS, everyone has known they're evil or at least lame from the begining. With SOE, it's relativly new so with every new depth they sink to, it's more interesting.

Scaris · October 2006

Originally posted by Vastar
Yeah but with MS, everyone has known they're evil or at least lame from the begining. With SOE, it's relativly new so with every new depth they sink to, it's more interesting.

MMmMm, or you are just late to the party.

BaronJuJu · October 2006

Sounds like they are gathering data for creating their next expansion

jrscott · October 2006

Originally posted by Obraik

Computer monitoring is common in this day and age by many software companies.

Doesn't make it right.

I get the feeling about 20 times each day now that some corporate jerk is probing my anus and laughing because "there is nothing you can do about it". And then these same idiots wonder why so many people hate them.

I'm not excusing bad behavior and not condoning any violent actions, but it will be no wonder to me if one of these companies suffers a visit by armed gunmen. The people prone to resorting to violence usually don't like being "forced" to submit to anything and these are the very things that set them off.

Scaris · October 2006

Originally posted by jrscott
Doesn't make it right.I get the feeling about 20 times each day now that some corporate jerk is probing my anus and laughing because "there is nothing you can do about it". And then these same idiots wonder why so many people hate them. I'm not excusing bad behavior and not condoning any violent actions, but it will be no wonder to me if one of these companies suffers a visit by armed gunmen. The people prone to resorting to violence usually don't like being "forced" to submit to anything and these are the very things that set them off.

Well ultimatly you can choose to not put your computer on the internet which removes that issue and not run software that requires such practices. Microsoft does offer a second option of calling in for your activation however.

It will come to a head eventually, however piracy will still have to be addressed somehow. Right now companies are forced to protect their interests however they can. With piracy going pier to pier now there aren't many options.

Shayde · October 2006

More damn rootkit spyware nonsense.

Wildcat84 · October 2006

SOE has no business spying on my PC. And given that this is a company that sneaked a system compromising rootkit onto CD's they are not worthy of trust.

Vastar · October 2006

Originally posted by Fadeus

Originally posted by Vastar
Yeah but with MS, everyone has known they're evil or at least lame from the begining. With SOE, it's relativly new so with every new depth they sink to, it's more interesting.

MMmMm, or you are just late to the party.

...I said "relatively new".

jrscott · October 2006

Originally posted by Fadeus

Well ultimatly you can choose to not put your computer on the internet which removes that issue and not run software that requires such practices.
It will come to a head eventually, however piracy will still have to be addressed somehow. Right now companies are forced to protect their interests however they can. With piracy going pier to pier now there aren't many options.
Microsoft does offer a second option of calling in for your activation.

Very true Fadeus, which brings us back to the question of making the industry aware that they are trampling what people perceive to be their right to privacy. Being a software developer myself, I am very conscious of their desire to prevent piracy and sympathize greatly.

But as a normal citizen of a country with laws that purportedly protect my privacy, it annoys me that somebody out there is cataloging things on my system and I honestly have no idea of the TRUE nature of what they are sending.I also have no idea who they are sharing that information with, and whether it will be combined with other personal information to generate some kind of profile. There are details in everybody's life that they want to keep personal. A personal computer gathers are lot of information about a person that can be used to blackmail or otherwise injure somebody in one form or another.

Personally I could care less if SOE knows I have 2GB RAM, AMD 4400 Dual Core, with NVidia 6600 GT SLI, and RAID 1 mirrored SATA 2 300MB Hard Drives. Send me an email and ask. The bottom line is they value their needs over our right to privacy.

The other annoying aspect of SOE's approach is that they used to collect this information on a voluntary basis, then decided to collect it on a mandatory basis with NO notice. By the time the average player sees that message on their launchpad, SOE will have already taken the information, as the launchpad is the program grabbing it. If the player wanted to opt out by never playing again, that choice has already been STOLEN from them way before they finish reading the notice. Another example of pathetic execution. I'm serious when I say these people just plain suck at planning.

Rekrul · October 2006

First, unless you took deliberate action against it, then Microsoft is spying on your computer daily, monitoring which applications you have installed, and which illegal/unlicenced components you use.

What SOE is doing is not only standard practice, but they even announced it. What they are collecting is basically the information you provide to your browser to every single web site you connect.

So before anyone goes up in flames over a completely benevolent demographics survey, be happy that they are not only announcing it (as required) but also collecting only limited ammount of data.

There are things you can hate SOE for. And then there are those over which you can't.

Blizzard's software, for example, is considerably more intrusive than Station access.

jrscott · October 2006

Originally posted by Wildcat84
SOE has no business spying on my PC. And given that this is a company that sneaked a system compromising rootkit onto CD's they are not worthy of trust.

Amen to this Wildcat. Not only was that Rootkit an affront to privacy, it had many flaws that caused system problems on some PCs. On top of all this, it hid files with certain filename extensions from the operating system. What if somebody else's software used files with that extension? Installation of a rootkit has no place whatsoever in the world of commercial products.

What they did was fundamentally alter the operating systems of affected computers. BTW, where was Microsoft in all of this? They should have sued the hell out of Sony for damage of reputation. How many "bugs" that were created by that rootkit were blamed on Microsoft? How many systems' security was compromised (and Microsoft blamed) by the bugs found in Sony's rootkit, which by the way was deemed to be extremely amateurish?

Yeah SOE, we are supposed to trust you. BAH. I guess they figure nobody does anyhow, so what the heck?

jrscott · October 2006

Originally posted by Rekrul
First, unless you took deliberate action against it, then Microsoft is spying on your computer daily, monitoring which applications you have installed, and which illegal/unlicenced components you use.

Lemming answer. Your turn. Jump off the cliff, everybody else does it. This does not make it ethical. Of course I have already figured one thing out about your viewpoints. You tend to favor legality over ethics. Not a flame, just an observation.

What SOE is doing is not only standard practice, but they even announced it.

The same day they started it! That's BUSH LEAGUE. Most people will only find out about it after the information is sent because the first time they had a chance to see the announcement was when they brought up launchpad and the information was already sent. Don't defend this.

What they are collecting is basically the information you provide to your browser to every single web site you connect.

That's what they tell you anyhow. We need to run Ethereal on the launchpad to find out what is really going. Of course if we gather information from them then it is against the EULA. See how this works Rekrul?

So before anyone goes up in flames over a completely benevolent demographics survey, be happy that they are not only announcing it (as required) but also collecting only limited ammount of data.

Like I said, their announcement was AFTER the fact.

There are things you can hate SOE for. And then there are those over which you can't.

And *I* will exercise my right to choose. And I choose to hate them for this in addition to destroying the only MMORPG I found playable.

Blizzard's software, for example, is considerably more intrusive than Station access.

And for the record, I had all those options that sent them information turned ON to help them...because they asked. The information they will get from the entire playbase will not differ significantly from the data they gathered voluntarily. Certainly you of all people recognize that. The difference between 1,000 people and 30,000 - 100,000 will still be insignificant.

Scaris · October 2006

Originally posted by jrscott
Very true Fadeus, which brings us back to the question of making the industry aware that they are trampling what people perceive to be their right to privacy. Being a software developer myself, I am very conscious of their desire to prevent piracy and sympathize greatly. But as a normal citizen of a country with laws that purportedly protect my privacy, it annoys me that somebody out there is cataloging things on my system and I honestly have no idea of the TRUE nature of what they are sending.I also have no idea who they are sharing that information with, and whether it will be combined with other personal information to generate some kind of profile. There are details in everybody's life that they want to keep personal. A personal computer gathers are lot of information about a person that can be used to blackmail or otherwise injure somebody in one form or another. Personally I could care less if SOE knows I have 2GB RAM, AMD 4400 Dual Core, with NVidia 6600 GT SLI, and RAID 1 mirrored SATA 2 300MB Hard Drives. Send me an email and ask. The bottom line is they value their needs over our right to privacy.The other annoying aspect of SOE's approach is that they used to collect this information on a voluntary basis, then decided to collect it on a mandatory basis with NO notice. By the time the average player sees that message on their launchpad, SOE will have already taken the information, as the launchpad is the program grabbing it. If the player wanted to opt out by never playing again, that choice has already been STOLEN from them way before they finish reading the notice. Another example of pathetic execution. I'm serious when I say these people just plain suck at planning.

Oh I know but everyone is up in arms over a company knowing how much ram you have when atleast 50% of the financial institutions everyone deals with requires their SSID in the US. Something that is far more dangerous in the wrong hands. I am not seeing anyone up in arms over that ever...

I guess I just don't see the big deal. SOE would be done as a company if they abused this so I feel fairly secure even if someone else got into their systems and found out how much ram I had I am not really at risk.

jrscott · October 2006

Originally posted by Fadeus

Oh I know but everyone is up in arms over a company knowing how much ram you have when atleast 50% of the financial institutions everyone deals with requires their SSID in the US. Something that is far more dangerous in the wrong hands. I am not seeing anyone up in arms over that ever...
I guess I just don't see the big deal. SOE would be done as a company if they abused this so I feel fairly secure even if someone else got into their systems and found out how much ram I had I am not really at risk.

Well, FWIW, I am up in arms over SSIDs being required for everything even though it is illegal to require it in most cases. But this is not the forum for that.

I'm not necessarily up in arms. My complaint is that they once acknowledged that giving the user a choice was a good thing to do, now they are saying "Our need for information is greater than your desire for privacy". It's plain rude.

Don't take this as me doggedly fighting. You're right that somebody knowing how much RAM I have is not a high risk issue. Look beyond that. What comes next? When you allow them to do this, they become emboldened. Next time around they send the contents of your "Program Files" folder. Then they rummage through browser cache. Then they start sharing the information. Are there laws that specifically prohibit these actions once you allow them to gather information? I'm not sure.

Then you are public domain and people can take information about you out of context to decline your credit, deny your application for a job, or implicate you in a crime. Information is a tool that can be horribly twisted to serve any purpose.

Most people do not realize that by posting rants here, they could be affecting their future employability. Potential employers are now performing Google searches to find a person's blog and forum posts to put together a profile of them. Most people are not aware of this. This is an example of information being used unexpectedly and without your knowledge. The less information you give out, the safer you are.

Rekrul · October 2006

Originally posted by jrscott

Originally posted by Rekrul
First, unless you took deliberate action against it, then Microsoft is spying on your computer daily, monitoring which applications you have installed, and which illegal/unlicenced components you use.

Lemming answer. Your turn. Jump off the cliff, everybody else does it. This does not make it ethical. Of course I have already figured one thing out about your viewpoints. You tend to favor legality over ethics. Not a flame, just an observation.

Legalities can be enforced. Ethics can't.

I try to take all sides into consideration.

SOE is developing new games. If you ever dealt with DX or OpenGL APIs you know it's a nightmare trying to figure out which chipset version supports which extension. A reasonable business decision at this is to automatically collect the data.

Now for legalities. If they state they only collect that data, that is what they can collect. There is no regulation on when or how a warning of this may be posted. It falls under the "fine print" category. Especially since this is not a big deal (it really isn't) they make a formal statement, then collect the data.

Majority of players won't even understand what the statement means. Some will be overjoyed that they'll be able to transmit their supped up, overclocked rig data. There will be an odd script kiddie that will spoof the data, sending his processor name as "Toaster X".

But look at the whole picture. In a company that told its customer base with long term subscriptions to ef off, is this really something to consider as unethical? There's always a matter of proportion. Data collection is extremly common among game companies, since it's one of the ways that can considerably boost their profit margin.

Consider the latest EU/US dispute over personal data. US wants to know what color my underpants are when I get on flight, EU is protecting my rights. On the opposite side, the IRS, while in the EU, just sent me tax deduction because I bought subsidized red underwear. So what is EU in this case, ethical or unethical. Or is it selectively ethical depending on how much they profit from it?

The world isn't black and white, and enforcing ethics in today's world is mostly a windmill fight. But above all, ethics are too expensive for today's modern life style. After all, it wouldn't be really practical if managers started slapping their faces with gloves, challenging each other to duels over honor disputes.

Lemming? Ethics? Legalities? I always try to stand on the practical side of things. Especially when it's about customer relations. If I find something that doesn't suit me, I move on. Hence, I'm no longer subscribed to SWG or any other SOE's services, but I did sub with Blizzard and I've been supporting Anet for over 1.5 years.

I vote with my wallet. That, is the bottom line about everyone and everything.

Scaris · October 2006

Originally posted by jrscott
Well, FWIW, I am up in arms over SSIDs being required for everything even though it is illegal to require it in most cases. But this is not the forum for that. I'm not necessarily up in arms. My complaint is that they once acknowledged that giving the user a choice was a good thing to do, now they are saying "Our need for information is greater than your desire for privacy". It's plain rude.Don't take this as me doggedly fighting. You're right that somebody knowing how much RAM I have is not a high risk issue. Look beyond that. What comes next? When you allow them to do this, they become emboldened. Next time around they send the contents of your "Program Files" folder. Then they rummage through browser cache. Then they start sharing the information. Are there laws that specifically prohibit these actions once you allow them to gather information? I'm not sure.Then you are public domain and people can take information about you out of context to decline your credit, deny your application for a job, or implicate you in a crime. Information is a tool that can be horribly twisted to serve any purpose. Most people do not realize that by posting rants here, they could be affecting their future employability. Potential employers are now performing Google searches to find a person's blog and forum posts to put together a profile of them. Most people are not aware of this. This is an example of information being used unexpectedly and without your knowledge. The less information you give out, the safer you are.

Next worries me. I don't even think what Microsoft is doing is right by any stretch of the means. I think they are overstepping their bounds. There is no need to gather information, they want the info so they can max out an expansion I am sure making it a heavier computer load. However it is the beginning of a very bad trend. I am not sure where to draw the line, I volunteer my information via the little checkbox under options but that was my choice and that really is how it should stay.

However at this point I am not willing to give up SWG over it which would be the obvious first move for me if it bothered me that badly.

Scaris · October 2006

Originally posted by Rekrul
Legalities can be enforced. Ethics can't.I try to take all sides into consideration.SOE is developing new games. If you ever dealt with DX or OpenGL APIs you know it's a nightmare trying to figure out which chipset version supports which extension. A reasonable business decision at this is to automatically collect the data.Now for legalities. If they state they only collect that data, that is what they can collect. There is no regulation on when or how a warning of this may be posted. It falls under the "fine print" category. Especially since this is not a big deal (it really isn't) they make a formal statement, then collect the data.Majority of players won't even understand what the statement means. Some will be overjoyed that they'll be able to transmit their supped up, overclocked rig data. There will be an odd script kiddie that will spoof the data, sending his processor name as "Toaster X".But look at the whole picture. In a company that told its customer base with long term subscriptions to ef off, is this really something to consider as unethical? There's always a matter of proportion. Data collection is extremly common among game companies, since it's one of the ways that can considerably boost their profit margin.Consider the latest EU/US dispute over personal data. US wants to know what color my underpants are when I get on flight, EU is protecting my rights. On the opposite side, the IRS, while in the EU, just sent me tax deduction because I bought subsidized red underwear. So what is EU in this case, ethical or unethical. Or is it selectively ethical depending on how much they profit from it?The world isn't black and white, and enforcing ethics in today's world is mostly a windmill fight. But above all, ethics are too expensive for today's modern life style. After all, it wouldn't be really practical if managers started slapping their faces with gloves, challenging each other to duels over honor disputes.Lemming? Ethics? Legalities? I always try to stand on the practical side of things. Especially when it's about customer relations. If I find something that doesn't suit me, I move on. Hence, I'm no longer subscribed to SWG or any other SOE's services, but I did sub with Blizzard and I've been supporting Anet for over 1.5 years.I vote with my wallet. That, is the bottom line about everyone and everything.

*chuckles* ok the whole post was good but the Toaster X comment made me chuckle.

Wildcat84 · October 2006

I for one hope they are dumb enough to botch this or snoop on PC's for stuff like ripped movies, MP3's etc (remember that other parts of Sony, which is a member of the RIAA and MPAA would very MUCH like to collect this) and breach the terms of the agreement they made with the government to halt criminal prosecution of the rootkit fiasco.

Rekrul · October 2006

Originally posted by Wildcat84
I for one hope they are dumb enough to botch this or snoop on PC's for stuff like ripped movies, MP3's etc (remember that other parts of Sony, which is a member of the RIAA and MPAA would very MUCH like to collect this) and breach the terms of the agreement they made with the government to halt criminal prosecution of the rootkit fiasco.

Edonkey network has been tapped for years now. RIAA even sponsored several servers (big ones) so they get full traffic reports, and get the ability to inject broken packets.

Torrent trackers are being monitored as well.

There are companies that dedicated themselves to not only that, but also to poisoning the datastreams.

Consider this:
- Is it ethical to download/rip movies/music? (legalities aside, ethics are the question here)
- Is it ethical to use concealed methods to search for such offenders?
- Is it ethical to use courts to process the above two cases?

Let's say you find a legal loophole that allows you to download music you know is ripped off an IP protected source. The latest <pop author>'s album.
Is it ethical for you to download such music? The publishing companies are looking to maximize their profits, but this is the only thing they do.

Step 2. You download such music, but are safe from prosecution because you abused the legal loophole.
RIAA tracks the datastream to your IP. They did that as a part of outsourced investigation. This investigation took place at federally authorized entity, with wire-tap permissions on federal level. Since the IP in question is registered in US (album was released in US exclusively), US laws apply to it. They use traffic sniffers, local P2P servers, and other net snooping techniques to trace your IP.
Are they ethical? They certainly are fully withing extents of the law.

RIAA now requests ISPs data logs under thread of IP violation support. ISP isn't the biggest one and can't afford a lawsuit, so they request FBI court order, under which they reveal traffic data.
Is it ethical for ISP to reveal such data? It certainly is legal due to FBI's involvement.

And lastly, the author that made the album, comes tired out of a nightclub, gets microphone shoved under their nose, and blurbs out: "Only a moron would buy my music".
Were they ethical to thousands of fans, who can't wait to buy their own music? Isn't this unethical to fans? It certainly is rude, but fans adore their idols and think of them the highest. Shouldn't they be respected for that? Isn't disrepecting your fans a breach of ethics?

See, this is why I don't put much emphasis on ethics in real life. They make things so complicated, that you can spend your whole life wondering about issues like that. Might as well go live in a temple and contemplate about it till hopefully you reach enlightenment or die of old age.

JestorRodo · October 2006

Originally posted by BaronJuJu
Sounds like they are gathering data for creating their next expansion

An Expansion !? SWG-NGE: Return of The Crickets or SWG:NGE : The Next Dope or SWG:NGE Revenge of the Devs.

jrscott · October 2006

Originally posted by Rekrul

Legalities can be enforced. Ethics can't.

The world isn't black and white, and enforcing ethics in today's world
is mostly a windmill fight. But above all, ethics are too expensive for
today's modern life style. After all, it wouldn't be really practical
if managers started slapping their faces with gloves, challenging each
other to duels over honor disputes.

Hmmm...

This is exactly what I am trying to get at. Legailities are black and white and the world isn't. If you behave as though ethics are not important, you are ignoring the grey areas of the world, of which there are many. You can try to rule through law alone, but history tells us this is the way to ruin.

Ethics are optional, but ignore them at your own risk. The rulers of France did up until their heads dropped into the basket. SOE beware.

iskareot · October 2006

Originally posted by Obraik

If you're running Windows XP (or Vista or Office), Microsoft also know this information. They collect it all when you install and activate Windows or Office and when you upgrade beyond the threshold you have to activate again and re-update that info There's also that Windows validation tool that checks your computer every 3 weeks to make sure your copy of Windows is valid (used to be everytime you logged in to Windows).
WoW monitors what programs you have running and if it thinks you're running a program that is used for hacking, your account is banned.
Computer monitoring is common in this day and age by many software companies.

Since I do this for a living, I will add in here. You are right, alot of companies do this. HOWEVER, there is some rules and laws involved here.

Microsoft is the worst example to use because THEY own thier OS and you more or less rent it if you will.

So they need to be left out of this, you agree to that by using thier software. Now then, there is information you agree to with each game and or product you install. You have to read some of this close. SOE has been known to gather data in a (Sketchy) manner quite oftern FYI. This is a known fact, however you agreed to play then you allwed it to happen.

Just be smart, some things should be open to them, but for marketing... that is very thin.... very thin.

Send them a email tell them you do not wish to be part of it while using thier product and see what they say.

No matter what the law is thin in alot of this mess......be warned and use some sense.

Xirik · October 2006

Valve and many MMORPG companies do this.. Nothing new here.

Howdy, Stranger!

Snoop SOE E SOE

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Snoop SOE E SOE

Comments