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UO vs EQ

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  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,208
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:




    wtf are you talking about , you really are just ridiculous just like your hairbrained ideas towards OWPVP ..

     I never said anywhere that people did not get ganked ( show where i said that ) you cant ..

     What i have stressed is that if you were surprised shocked outraged by it you are fucking stupid ..

      If you get repeatedly ganked by the same person .. you are stupid

     If you did not know UO had PVP you are stupid .

    If you did not take the the time to learn the games mechanics you are fucking stupid ..

    If you did nott realize you have the same tools at your disposal to fight PKs your are fucking stupid ..

     And if you play a game for 13 years (like you hrrmm said you did) and still come here saying how bad it was you are stupid..Like just now )

      ANd if you do not realize that PVP was being played in other games alot leading up to UO you are stupid .. (shown in this thread)


      Several categories you fit into there ..


    This, in bold....

    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Andurin said:




    Well lets start with all the reds , which there were quite a few went into UO expecting PVP ..

         Many blues which i am one of , knew what to expect , all my friends knew what to expect ..
      
      IMO the people that didnt expect PVP did not take the time to read the  box or do any research on UO at all ..

         But your stance now is very different from .. " PVP was Forced on All players in UO"     

    thats simply false ..


       Your stance now is " they did not expect the severity or degree of PVP" which again , i blame the player ..

          Anyone that was constantly killed and looted did not take time to learn those game systems ..  WIthin 2 weeks our entire crew knew to have a safe rune and recall scrolls ...

      Took me hmm been awhile .. 1 week to figure out .. I need Magery and recall trained up RIGHT NOW .. then Hiding ..


        After magery and recall was really quite easy escape reds(if needed to )  ..  As soon as you see that red name on the edge of screen REcall .. really simple .. Hiding was also very useful (once you got it high enough to count on)

     And if you got constantly attacked and Looted in UO you were playing wrong and deserve what you got .. What you should of taken away from situation is What can i do for better survival .. 

      If you consistently let the same thing happen to you over and over and did nothing to change your approach.. well .. thats just a level of stupid i wont address

       And IMO if anyone did not expect gamers to be jerks and assholes , they should probably just begin over and start learning life in general first .. It should of taught them that ... Unless of course they thought that some magical being cast a happy be nice spell over players as they logged into a Game ..

       People generally do not change there approach to other people  in games .actually knowing people one would surely to expect them to act worse .. Which most do ..

    Once upon a time....

  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    I was very green when I tried Lineage and I just tried it because it was another MMORPG. I didn't know it had PvP. I was also a bit shocked when I got killed just outside the town. 

    Not everyone buying a game at least not new players like me still very new to the genre understand the terminology or what is happening. Should not treat people like they're idiots because they just tried a new game for fun.

    Well I left when I realised what was happening in Lineage but I did learn a lesson.

    In Everquest too I was going to speak to the Priest of Discord but I read the chat when someone was saying no one could heal them because they were PvP enabled. I was then made aware of it. I was just curious about the Priest.
    UngoodAlBQuirky
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    edited May 16
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:




    wtf are you talking about , you really are just ridiculous just like your hairbrained ideas towards OWPVP ..

     I never said anywhere that people did not get ganked ( show where i said that ) you cant ..

     What i have stressed is that if you were surprised shocked outraged by it you are fucking stupid ..

      If you get repeatedly ganked by the same person .. you are stupid

     If you did not know UO had PVP you are stupid .

    If you did not take the the time to learn the games mechanics you are fucking stupid ..

    If you did nott realize you have the same tools at your disposal to fight PKs your are fucking stupid ..

     And if you play a game for 13 years (like you hrrmm said you did) and still come here saying how bad it was you are stupid..Like just now )

      ANd if you do not realize that PVP was being played in other games alot leading up to UO you are stupid .. (shown in this thread)


      Several categories you fit into there ..


    This, in bold....

    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Andurin said:




    Well lets start with all the reds , which there were quite a few went into UO expecting PVP ..

         Many blues which i am one of , knew what to expect , all my friends knew what to expect ..
      
      IMO the people that didnt expect PVP did not take the time to read the  box or do any research on UO at all ..

         But your stance now is very different from .. " PVP was Forced on All players in UO"     

    thats simply false ..


       Your stance now is " they did not expect the severity or degree of PVP" which again , i blame the player ..

          Anyone that was constantly killed and looted did not take time to learn those game systems ..  WIthin 2 weeks our entire crew knew to have a safe rune and recall scrolls ...

      Took me hmm been awhile .. 1 week to figure out .. I need Magery and recall trained up RIGHT NOW .. then Hiding ..


        After magery and recall was really quite easy escape reds(if needed to )  ..  As soon as you see that red name on the edge of screen REcall .. really simple .. Hiding was also very useful (once you got it high enough to count on)

     And if you got constantly attacked and Looted in UO you were playing wrong and deserve what you got .. What you should of taken away from situation is What can i do for better survival .. 

      If you consistently let the same thing happen to you over and over and did nothing to change your approach.. well .. thats just a level of stupid i wont address

       And IMO if anyone did not expect gamers to be jerks and assholes , they should probably just begin over and start learning life in general first .. It should of taught them that ... Unless of course they thought that some magical being cast a happy be nice spell over players as they logged into a Game ..

       People generally do not change there approach to other people  in games .actually knowing people one would surely to expect them to act worse .. Which most do ..


    Im convinced you are a complete window licker ...

     I really hope for your well being you realize YOU said that not me .. It may be a good idea that you go and get a nappy now , you seem very confused

     That statement You made was proven to be false .. By the nature of the game itself ..


      you said " " PVP was Forced on All players in UO"   

     Now anyone with anyone with even the slightest bit of common sense knows this is false ..

       PKs went into the game looking for PVP ( not forced on them)

      Many Blues went into the game Knowing what to expect and looking forward to it ..(not forced on them )

      I know players that never left town just RPed in town a fishmonger .. An Armor Repairer etc.. Not forced on them

       If its something you want and enjoy its not forced on you ..

      If its something you do not participate in . Its not forced on you ..

      again another level of stupid exhibited by you ..

     Weak attempt ... but the community is becoming accustomed to it ..

    Amaranthar
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,208
    Screw online gaming. 
    Too many a-holes. 
    AlBQuirky

    Once upon a time....

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    Screw online gaming. 
    Too many a-holes. 

    lol what a failure ..    u r dismissed .. fuggin guy does not even know what he says anymore ..
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,223
    cheyane said:
    I was very green when I tried Lineage and I just tried it because it was another MMORPG. I didn't know it had PvP. I was also a bit shocked when I got killed just outside the town. 

    Not everyone buying a game at least not new players like me still very new to the genre understand the terminology or what is happening. Should not treat people like they're idiots because they just tried a new game for fun.

    Well I left when I realised what was happening in Lineage but I did learn a lesson.

    In Everquest too I was going to speak to the Priest of Discord but I read the chat when someone was saying no one could heal them because they were PvP enabled. I was then made aware of it. I was just curious about the Priest.
    Not only could they not heal you, The Red and Green named players could not Raise, Buff, or Teleport each other, they were like, in the same world, but cut off from each other.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,223
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.

    I don't know how common my own journey is, but I played Doom with my buddy at his house on a LAN in 95-96. We played Dungeon Siege over dial up peer-to-peer later on. I never heard of nor used "PvP" back then.

    I started EQ in 2001 because three co-workers kept coming in on Mondays and raving about this online game they both played. Never heard of MMORPGs until then. All I heard was to NOT join a "PvP" server. That was when I learned about player vs player.

    Thia may or may not be common. Just remember not all players took the same journey and were as "wise" as you think they may have been :)
    To be fair, in games like Gemstone IV, the players kept a lot of open ganking in place, there were forums and chats right in the AOL system, that players would talk on, and those people that were being disruptive would find themselves being disrupted in return. Keep in mind in those days, your character was linked to your AOL account, So if you wanted a second character you needed to make a second AOL account.

    When I started EQ as well, PvP and PK were new terms to me as well, because we just called it "fighting" there was no PK or PvP, it was "so-n-so killed me from hiding! Let's lynch mob them!" it was all we knew, in fact PvP was always thought to be a needed tool for role play games. Glad we learned that was false.

    Anyway, yah, I was told not to join a PvP server as well, not because of it was PvP, but because it was full of childish assholes that were treating PvP like it was the first time they saw a porn mag.. it was not so much PvP, it was just the worst of the worst of the players that got to wank off in a new game. The kind of players we drove out of Gemstone now had their own litter box to shit in.

    To be fair, I did join a few of the PvP servers later on, just to see, like Rallos Zek, and later the Team PvP server Tallon Zek. Rallos was pretty much as bad as it sounded, higher level players camping noobs and all that, just a generic royal shit show. I joined a raiding guild, and we had a quite a few people in my guild that used to play UO, and for the most part, they were glad to leave the ganking BS behind.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 16
    Scorchien said:

    To me, it's about encouraging players to have a reason for fighting, looting, killing or otherwise negatively interacting with other players in PVP.  Because these are role-playing games, and players are supposed to be playing the role of a character in an alternate or fantasy world (regardless of genre). 

    Now, sure, if a dwarf and an orc run into each other somewhere, chances are they're going to fight.  Same with an elf and a dark elf. 

    However, I  think that players should be discouraged from going around killing anyone anywhere anytime just because they can.  Such as players preying on noobs or anyone weaker than themselves for no rhyme or reason. 

    Also, there's no such thing as equal ground in a lot of these PVP MMORGPs if the player didn't start the game at launch.  There's no way for equal ground to exist between a lvl 20 PC and a lvl 60 PC.  The older a game gets, it becomes increasingly difficult for a new player to level and gain power without getting hunted or ganked by higher level players. 

    So, that's why I say that there should be limited/more realistic combat power progression/gear progression.  So that a top tier veteran player would still be vulnerable to attacks/ambushes by 10-20 noobs.  But then there should also be different kinds of power besides combat power in the game in which a character can progress.  Otherwise, players will lose interest in the game eventually. 

    It's true that a player should not expect to be able to go gather materials or whatever in a dangerous wilderness by him or herself.  Games like WoW have conditioned players that they should have this kind of freedom, but obviously this is stupid.  A Medieval Fantasy world should be very dangerous. 

    However, within the bounds of one's own factional territory (or that of an allied faction), there should be a certain level of safety as compared to a wilderness, less populated area, or the territory of a neutral, opposing, or enemy Faction.  PCs should not find it easy to enter the territory of a neutral or opposing Faction.  Neither should bandits find it easy to operate within the territory of a faction that has any kind of military.

    Of course, there could be areas where PVP occurs often.  Such as when two or more factions are at war, there would certainly be major battlefields.  And even when open warfare is not occurring, there could still be contested areas (containing resources, forts, settlements, trade routes, strategic locations, and even dungeons).



    What game is this rampant pking of Noobs happening in right now .. Where it is not the fault of the player .. Point to one , because most games already have preventive measures built in , the only time what you describe is possible is if a player stupidly runs into the same PKs over and over for no apparent reason ..

     Its pretty isolated instances anymore, like i said most games have measures in place .. Instance PVP , Lvl Restrictions etc ..

      The wussification of OWPVP already happened , but some want to further neuter it ..

     Till it does not exist .. You cannot employ the rules and restrictions like those in this thread and expect PVPers to play in them in an OWPVP game ..

     DOes anyone hear really think none of these ideas or some version of have not been kicked around at Dev Tables over the last 25 years .. They have .. There is a reason there are not implemented ..

      They wont work ... For a plethora of reasons from every angle and spectrum you can look at them thru , its been done ..

    If you want PvPers the targets have to be attractive to them , and accesible on a fairly regular basis .. or they will go somewhere else ..

      The very reasons that UO(Fel is still quite active )  and Eve survive all these years is because they offer what OW PvPers want ..

      The reason we see so many other attempts fail and shutter are the OWPVP was bad .. and/or restrictive ..

    I'm not saying that all of the ideas presented in this thread or others should or could be implemented.

    Ultima Online is 23 years old, not 3D, and I can't even play a Dwarf, can I?

    EVE Online is a space battleship game.  Something I have little to no interest in playing.  Even though I installed it and docked a few days ago.

    Why do you think that a game world featuring what I described in my previous post would not provide attractive targets* to PVPers?  Or that those targets would not be accessible on a fairly regular basis? 

    For instance, there would be merchant (PC or NPC) caravans traveling along trade routes.  PCs traveling to different cities, dungeons, or other places outside of their own territory.  Like maybe an Artisan has hired some adventurers to go get some pelts from a certain type of animal that only makes its habitat in a certain location.  But this means the adventurers have to make their way through a wilderness that brings them close to enemy territory.  Or they have to actually pass through enemy territory to reach this place.

    Instanced PVP can be cool.  If Neverwinter would use Approximate Gear Score Categories for PVP, have PVP matches with scenarios and goals other than just kill the other team, and have a PVP campaign with Factions, it could be pretty fun.  But whoever is in charge of Neverwinter won't do that, so oh well.

    You don't need Level Restrictions if PCs aren't allowed to become gods compared to noobs.

    Anyway, there are 2 MMORPGs that have somewhat decent OWPVP.  UO (1997) and EVE (2003).  Some say Lineage 2 (2003) or Age of Wushu (2012) had decent OWPVP, but I don't know.  DAOC (2001) was supposed to be good, but I think only having 3 Factions was a weakness.  EDIT:  Some people say they liked Darkfall also.


    *EDIT:  What is an attractive target to PVPers?  Are they looking for a challenge or sure wins/easy kills?


    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    Scorchien said:

    To me, it's about encouraging players to have a reason for fighting, looting, killing or otherwise negatively interacting with other players in PVP.  Because these are role-playing games, and players are supposed to be playing the role of a character in an alternate or fantasy world (regardless of genre). 

    Now, sure, if a dwarf and an orc run into each other somewhere, chances are they're going to fight.  Same with an elf and a dark elf. 

    However, I  think that players should be discouraged from going around killing anyone anywhere anytime just because they can.  Such as players preying on noobs or anyone weaker than themselves for no rhyme or reason. 

    Also, there's no such thing as equal ground in a lot of these PVP MMORGPs if the player didn't start the game at launch.  There's no way for equal ground to exist between a lvl 20 PC and a lvl 60 PC.  The older a game gets, it becomes increasingly difficult for a new player to level and gain power without getting hunted or ganked by higher level players. 

    So, that's why I say that there should be limited/more realistic combat power progression/gear progression.  So that a top tier veteran player would still be vulnerable to attacks/ambushes by 10-20 noobs.  But then there should also be different kinds of power besides combat power in the game in which a character can progress.  Otherwise, players will lose interest in the game eventually. 

    It's true that a player should not expect to be able to go gather materials or whatever in a dangerous wilderness by him or herself.  Games like WoW have conditioned players that they should have this kind of freedom, but obviously this is stupid.  A Medieval Fantasy world should be very dangerous. 

    However, within the bounds of one's own factional territory (or that of an allied faction), there should be a certain level of safety as compared to a wilderness, less populated area, or the territory of a neutral, opposing, or enemy Faction.  PCs should not find it easy to enter the territory of a neutral or opposing Faction.  Neither should bandits find it easy to operate within the territory of a faction that has any kind of military.

    Of course, there could be areas where PVP occurs often.  Such as when two or more factions are at war, there would certainly be major battlefields.  And even when open warfare is not occurring, there could still be contested areas (containing resources, forts, settlements, trade routes, strategic locations, and even dungeons).



    What game is this rampant pking of Noobs happening in right now .. Where it is not the fault of the player .. Point to one , because most games already have preventive measures built in , the only time what you describe is possible is if a player stupidly runs into the same PKs over and over for no apparent reason ..

     Its pretty isolated instances anymore, like i said most games have measures in place .. Instance PVP , Lvl Restrictions etc ..

      The wussification of OWPVP already happened , but some want to further neuter it ..

     Till it does not exist .. You cannot employ the rules and restrictions like those in this thread and expect PVPers to play in them in an OWPVP game ..

     DOes anyone hear really think none of these ideas or some version of have not been kicked around at Dev Tables over the last 25 years .. They have .. There is a reason there are not implemented ..

      They wont work ... For a plethora of reasons from every angle and spectrum you can look at them thru , its been done ..

    If you want PvPers the targets have to be attractive to them , and accesible on a fairly regular basis .. or they will go somewhere else ..

      The very reasons that UO(Fel is still quite active )  and Eve survive all these years is because they offer what OW PvPers want ..

      The reason we see so many other attempts fail and shutter are the OWPVP was bad .. and/or restrictive ..

    I'm not saying that all of the ideas presented in this thread or others should or could be implemented.

    Ultima Online is 23 years old, not 3D, and I can't even play a Dwarf, can I?

    EVE Online is a space battleship game.  Something I have little to no interest in playing.  Even though I installed it and docked a few days ago.

    Why do you think that a game world featuring what I described in my previous post would not provide attractive targets* to PVPers?  Or that those targets would not be accessible on a fairly regular basis? 

    For instance, there would be merchant (PC or NPC) caravans traveling along trade routes.  PCs traveling to different cities, dungeons, or other places outside of their own territory.  Like maybe an Artisan has hired some adventurers to go get some pelts from a certain type of animal that only makes its habitat in a certain location.  But this means the adventurers have to make their way through a wilderness that brings them close to enemy territory.  Or they have to actually pass through enemy territory to reach this place.

    Instanced PVP can be cool.  If Neverwinter would use Approximate Gear Score Categories for PVP, have PVP matches with scenarios and goals other than just kill the other team, and have a PVP campaign with Factions, it could be pretty fun.  But whoever is in charge of Neverwinter won't do that, so oh well.

    You don't need Level Restrictions if PCs aren't allowed to become gods compared to noobs.

    Anyway, there are 2 MMORPGs that have somewhat decent OWPVP.  UO (1997) and EVE (2003).  Some say Lineage 2 (2003) or Age of Wushu (2012) had decent OWPVP, but I don't know.  DAOC (2001) was supposed to be good, but I think only having 3 Factions was a weakness.  EDIT:  Some people say they liked Darkfall also.


    *EDIT:  What is an attractive target to PVPers?  Are they looking for a challenge or sure wins/easy kills?



    Easy Target

    Rich Target

    Easy Rich Target
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 16
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    To me, it's about encouraging players to have a reason for fighting, looting, killing or otherwise negatively interacting with other players in PVP.  Because these are role-playing games, and players are supposed to be playing the role of a character in an alternate or fantasy world (regardless of genre). 

    Now, sure, if a dwarf and an orc run into each other somewhere, chances are they're going to fight.  Same with an elf and a dark elf. 

    However, I  think that players should be discouraged from going around killing anyone anywhere anytime just because they can.  Such as players preying on noobs or anyone weaker than themselves for no rhyme or reason. 

    Also, there's no such thing as equal ground in a lot of these PVP MMORGPs if the player didn't start the game at launch.  There's no way for equal ground to exist between a lvl 20 PC and a lvl 60 PC.  The older a game gets, it becomes increasingly difficult for a new player to level and gain power without getting hunted or ganked by higher level players. 

    So, that's why I say that there should be limited/more realistic combat power progression/gear progression.  So that a top tier veteran player would still be vulnerable to attacks/ambushes by 10-20 noobs.  But then there should also be different kinds of power besides combat power in the game in which a character can progress.  Otherwise, players will lose interest in the game eventually. 

    It's true that a player should not expect to be able to go gather materials or whatever in a dangerous wilderness by him or herself.  Games like WoW have conditioned players that they should have this kind of freedom, but obviously this is stupid.  A Medieval Fantasy world should be very dangerous. 

    However, within the bounds of one's own factional territory (or that of an allied faction), there should be a certain level of safety as compared to a wilderness, less populated area, or the territory of a neutral, opposing, or enemy Faction.  PCs should not find it easy to enter the territory of a neutral or opposing Faction.  Neither should bandits find it easy to operate within the territory of a faction that has any kind of military.

    Of course, there could be areas where PVP occurs often.  Such as when two or more factions are at war, there would certainly be major battlefields.  And even when open warfare is not occurring, there could still be contested areas (containing resources, forts, settlements, trade routes, strategic locations, and even dungeons).



    What game is this rampant pking of Noobs happening in right now .. Where it is not the fault of the player .. Point to one , because most games already have preventive measures built in , the only time what you describe is possible is if a player stupidly runs into the same PKs over and over for no apparent reason ..

     Its pretty isolated instances anymore, like i said most games have measures in place .. Instance PVP , Lvl Restrictions etc ..

      The wussification of OWPVP already happened , but some want to further neuter it ..

     Till it does not exist .. You cannot employ the rules and restrictions like those in this thread and expect PVPers to play in them in an OWPVP game ..

     DOes anyone hear really think none of these ideas or some version of have not been kicked around at Dev Tables over the last 25 years .. They have .. There is a reason there are not implemented ..

      They wont work ... For a plethora of reasons from every angle and spectrum you can look at them thru , its been done ..

    If you want PvPers the targets have to be attractive to them , and accesible on a fairly regular basis .. or they will go somewhere else ..

      The very reasons that UO(Fel is still quite active )  and Eve survive all these years is because they offer what OW PvPers want ..

      The reason we see so many other attempts fail and shutter are the OWPVP was bad .. and/or restrictive ..

    I'm not saying that all of the ideas presented in this thread or others should or could be implemented.

    Ultima Online is 23 years old, not 3D, and I can't even play a Dwarf, can I?

    EVE Online is a space battleship game.  Something I have little to no interest in playing.  Even though I installed it and docked a few days ago.

    Why do you think that a game world featuring what I described in my previous post would not provide attractive targets* to PVPers?  Or that those targets would not be accessible on a fairly regular basis? 

    For instance, there would be merchant (PC or NPC) caravans traveling along trade routes.  PCs traveling to different cities, dungeons, or other places outside of their own territory.  Like maybe an Artisan has hired some adventurers to go get some pelts from a certain type of animal that only makes its habitat in a certain location.  But this means the adventurers have to make their way through a wilderness that brings them close to enemy territory.  Or they have to actually pass through enemy territory to reach this place.

    Instanced PVP can be cool.  If Neverwinter would use Approximate Gear Score Categories for PVP, have PVP matches with scenarios and goals other than just kill the other team, and have a PVP campaign with Factions, it could be pretty fun.  But whoever is in charge of Neverwinter won't do that, so oh well.

    You don't need Level Restrictions if PCs aren't allowed to become gods compared to noobs.

    Anyway, there are 2 MMORPGs that have somewhat decent OWPVP.  UO (1997) and EVE (2003).  Some say Lineage 2 (2003) or Age of Wushu (2012) had decent OWPVP, but I don't know.  DAOC (2001) was supposed to be good, but I think only having 3 Factions was a weakness.  EDIT:  Some people say they liked Darkfall also.


    *EDIT:  What is an attractive target to PVPers?  Are they looking for a challenge or sure wins/easy kills?



    Easy Target

    Rich Target

    Easy Rich Target

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    To me, it's about encouraging players to have a reason for fighting, looting, killing or otherwise negatively interacting with other players in PVP.  Because these are role-playing games, and players are supposed to be playing the role of a character in an alternate or fantasy world (regardless of genre). 

    Now, sure, if a dwarf and an orc run into each other somewhere, chances are they're going to fight.  Same with an elf and a dark elf. 

    However, I  think that players should be discouraged from going around killing anyone anywhere anytime just because they can.  Such as players preying on noobs or anyone weaker than themselves for no rhyme or reason. 

    Also, there's no such thing as equal ground in a lot of these PVP MMORGPs if the player didn't start the game at launch.  There's no way for equal ground to exist between a lvl 20 PC and a lvl 60 PC.  The older a game gets, it becomes increasingly difficult for a new player to level and gain power without getting hunted or ganked by higher level players. 

    So, that's why I say that there should be limited/more realistic combat power progression/gear progression.  So that a top tier veteran player would still be vulnerable to attacks/ambushes by 10-20 noobs.  But then there should also be different kinds of power besides combat power in the game in which a character can progress.  Otherwise, players will lose interest in the game eventually. 

    It's true that a player should not expect to be able to go gather materials or whatever in a dangerous wilderness by him or herself.  Games like WoW have conditioned players that they should have this kind of freedom, but obviously this is stupid.  A Medieval Fantasy world should be very dangerous. 

    However, within the bounds of one's own factional territory (or that of an allied faction), there should be a certain level of safety as compared to a wilderness, less populated area, or the territory of a neutral, opposing, or enemy Faction.  PCs should not find it easy to enter the territory of a neutral or opposing Faction.  Neither should bandits find it easy to operate within the territory of a faction that has any kind of military.

    Of course, there could be areas where PVP occurs often.  Such as when two or more factions are at war, there would certainly be major battlefields.  And even when open warfare is not occurring, there could still be contested areas (containing resources, forts, settlements, trade routes, strategic locations, and even dungeons).



    What game is this rampant pking of Noobs happening in right now .. Where it is not the fault of the player .. Point to one , because most games already have preventive measures built in , the only time what you describe is possible is if a player stupidly runs into the same PKs over and over for no apparent reason ..

     Its pretty isolated instances anymore, like i said most games have measures in place .. Instance PVP , Lvl Restrictions etc ..

      The wussification of OWPVP already happened , but some want to further neuter it ..

     Till it does not exist .. You cannot employ the rules and restrictions like those in this thread and expect PVPers to play in them in an OWPVP game ..

     DOes anyone hear really think none of these ideas or some version of have not been kicked around at Dev Tables over the last 25 years .. They have .. There is a reason there are not implemented ..

      They wont work ... For a plethora of reasons from every angle and spectrum you can look at them thru , its been done ..

    If you want PvPers the targets have to be attractive to them , and accesible on a fairly regular basis .. or they will go somewhere else ..

      The very reasons that UO(Fel is still quite active )  and Eve survive all these years is because they offer what OW PvPers want ..

      The reason we see so many other attempts fail and shutter are the OWPVP was bad .. and/or restrictive ..

    I'm not saying that all of the ideas presented in this thread or others should or could be implemented.

    Ultima Online is 23 years old, not 3D, and I can't even play a Dwarf, can I?

    EVE Online is a space battleship game.  Something I have little to no interest in playing.  Even though I installed it and docked a few days ago.

    Why do you think that a game world featuring what I described in my previous post would not provide attractive targets* to PVPers?  Or that those targets would not be accessible on a fairly regular basis? 

    For instance, there would be merchant (PC or NPC) caravans traveling along trade routes.  PCs traveling to different cities, dungeons, or other places outside of their own territory.  Like maybe an Artisan has hired some adventurers to go get some pelts from a certain type of animal that only makes its habitat in a certain location.  But this means the adventurers have to make their way through a wilderness that brings them close to enemy territory.  Or they have to actually pass through enemy territory to reach this place.

    Instanced PVP can be cool.  If Neverwinter would use Approximate Gear Score Categories for PVP, have PVP matches with scenarios and goals other than just kill the other team, and have a PVP campaign with Factions, it could be pretty fun.  But whoever is in charge of Neverwinter won't do that, so oh well.

    You don't need Level Restrictions if PCs aren't allowed to become gods compared to noobs.

    Anyway, there are 2 MMORPGs that have somewhat decent OWPVP.  UO (1997) and EVE (2003).  Some say Lineage 2 (2003) or Age of Wushu (2012) had decent OWPVP, but I don't know.  DAOC (2001) was supposed to be good, but I think only having 3 Factions was a weakness.  EDIT:  Some people say they liked Darkfall also.


    *EDIT:  What is an attractive target to PVPers?  Are they looking for a challenge or sure wins/easy kills?



    Easy Target

    Rich Target

    Easy Rich Target

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?

    No im just telling you what a PK is looking for, in the context of the converstaion
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 16
    Scorchien said:

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?

    No im just telling you what a PK is looking for, in the context of the converstaion
    Okay, so the general PKer wants easy, rich, or easy rich targets, but a PVPer may or may not be looking for a challenge?

    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    Scorchien said:

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?

    No im just telling you what a PK is looking for, in the context of the converstaion
    Okay, so the general PKer wants easy, rich, or easy rich targets, but a PVPer may or may not be looking for a challenge?


    I think your average PvPer is looking for conquest , be it Land/Keeps/Rivals/Personal targets (Grudge)

      I think most want a good fight , its always fun ..

     Kicking Kittens for your average PVPer is not fun and myself and ive seen others not engage in that
    Ancient_Exile
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?

    No im just telling you what a PK is looking for, in the context of the converstaion
    Okay, so the general PKer wants easy, rich, or easy rich targets, but a PVPer may or may not be looking for a challenge?


    I think your average PvPer is looking for conquest , be it Land/Keeps/Rivals/Personal targets (Grudge)

      I think most want a good fight , its always fun ..

     Kicking Kittens for your average PVPer is not fun and myself and ive seen others not engage in that

    If the average PVPer doesn't like kicking kittens anyway, what's wrong with making it a little more difficult to kick kittens without some kind of negative consequence?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?

    No im just telling you what a PK is looking for, in the context of the converstaion
    Okay, so the general PKer wants easy, rich, or easy rich targets, but a PVPer may or may not be looking for a challenge?


    I think your average PvPer is looking for conquest , be it Land/Keeps/Rivals/Personal targets (Grudge)

      I think most want a good fight , its always fun ..

     Kicking Kittens for your average PVPer is not fun and myself and ive seen others not engage in that

    If the average PVPer doesn't like kicking kittens anyway, what's wrong with making it a little more difficult to kick kittens without some kind of negative consequence?

    you are mixing PvPer with Pk


      Very different mindset
    Ungood
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 16
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?

    No im just telling you what a PK is looking for, in the context of the converstaion
    Okay, so the general PKer wants easy, rich, or easy rich targets, but a PVPer may or may not be looking for a challenge?


    I think your average PvPer is looking for conquest , be it Land/Keeps/Rivals/Personal targets (Grudge)

      I think most want a good fight , its always fun ..

     Kicking Kittens for your average PVPer is not fun and myself and ive seen others not engage in that

    If the average PVPer doesn't like kicking kittens anyway, what's wrong with making it a little more difficult to kick kittens without some kind of negative consequence?

    you are mixing PvPer with Pk


      Very different mindset

    No, I think you established that there is a different mindset between the average PVPer and the average PKer.  I'm following you.

    I'm asking you if it is okay to develop and implement systems which discourage flagrant griefers and out-of-control kitten-kicking PKers while at the same time allowing PVPers to seek out the increased fun, challenge, risk, interest and excitement that they seek from a PVP/PVE MMORPG?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    edited May 16
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?

    No im just telling you what a PK is looking for, in the context of the converstaion
    Okay, so the general PKer wants easy, rich, or easy rich targets, but a PVPer may or may not be looking for a challenge?


    I think your average PvPer is looking for conquest , be it Land/Keeps/Rivals/Personal targets (Grudge)

      I think most want a good fight , its always fun ..

     Kicking Kittens for your average PVPer is not fun and myself and ive seen others not engage in that

    If the average PVPer doesn't like kicking kittens anyway, what's wrong with making it a little more difficult to kick kittens without some kind of negative consequence?

    you are mixing PvPer with Pk


      Very different mindset

    No, I think you established that there is a different mindset between the average PVPer and the average PKer.  I'm following you.

    I'm asking you if it is okay to develop and implement systems which discourage flagrant griefers and out-of-control kitten-kicking PKers while at the same time allowing PVPers to seek out the increased fun, challenge, risk, interest and excitement that they seek from a PVP/PVE MMORPG?

    If you punish Pkers to harshly they move on , and then that part of the game is just gone for everyone ..

      I was never one in the mindset that PKers should be punished (altho i dont like using that word for it)

     Noone should be Punished for playing the game using the rules and tools availble to everyone /....

      So its a tricky balance , and one i dont think can be done (with increased punishment).. .. and keep all crowds happy and in the game

      The PKs the PvPer.. and the PVers .. and any combination of the afore mentioned


      FFS PVers are the whinyest ime .. they are not happy even in there own sect .. Hence why we ends up with games like ESO and GW2 where everyone can Tank/DPS/Heal ... Let alone trying to balance OWPVP for them , they need it instanced .. Because they do not want to be hrmm interupted killing defensless orcs
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 17
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?

    No im just telling you what a PK is looking for, in the context of the converstaion
    Okay, so the general PKer wants easy, rich, or easy rich targets, but a PVPer may or may not be looking for a challenge?


    I think your average PvPer is looking for conquest , be it Land/Keeps/Rivals/Personal targets (Grudge)

      I think most want a good fight , its always fun ..

     Kicking Kittens for your average PVPer is not fun and myself and ive seen others not engage in that

    If the average PVPer doesn't like kicking kittens anyway, what's wrong with making it a little more difficult to kick kittens without some kind of negative consequence?

    you are mixing PvPer with Pk


      Very different mindset

    No, I think you established that there is a different mindset between the average PVPer and the average PKer.  I'm following you.

    I'm asking you if it is okay to develop and implement systems which discourage flagrant griefers and out-of-control kitten-kicking PKers while at the same time allowing PVPers to seek out the increased fun, challenge, risk, interest and excitement that they seek from a PVP/PVE MMORPG?

    If you punish Pkers to harshly they move on , and then that part of the game is just gone for everyone ..

      I was never one in the mindset that PKers should be punished (altho i dont like using that word for it)

     Noone should be Punished for playing the game using the rules and tools availble to everyone /....

      So its a tricky balance , and one i dont think can be done (with increased punishment).. .. and keep all crowds happy and in the game

      The PKs the PvPer.. and the PVers .. and any combination of the afore mentioned


      FFS PVers are the whinyest ime .. they are not happy even in there own sect .. Hence why we ends up with games like ESO and GW2 where everyone can Tank/DPS/Heal ... Let alone trying to balance OWPVP for them , they need it instanced .. Because they do not want to be hrmm interupted killing defensless orcs

    I think I see your point.

    I don't believe that any player should be Punished for any negative interactions with players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  Actually, in a Faction-based OWPVP/PVE Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG, I believe that the rules & systems can or should, in fact, encourage players to seek out negative interactions with other players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  However, this does not mean that this should always be easy.

    For example, I do not think that Dwarves should have an easy time infiltrating, exploring, and/or raiding a Territory claimed by Orcs (or vice versa).  Just as it should not be easy for Dark Elves to raid an Elven homeland (or vice versa).  Though Good or Evil Humans would probably have an easier time infiltrating the territory of a neutral or opposing Human Faction.  (Of course, neutral/independent factions may have more or less restrictive policies regarding strangers who wander into their territories.  Some may be more open and welcoming, some may be more guarded and strict.)  Not to say that disguises (natural or magical) couldn't be used by those races who would have a harder time going unnoticed in the lands of those races by whom they would not be welcomed. 

    However, Alliances and Factions would probably frown upon those players who sought to prey on or otherwise negatively impact other players (or NPCs) who are members of their own Faction or Alliance.  Not to say that playing as a Criminal should be absolutely discouraged.  Nor am I saying that players should always be punished for robbing or killing members of their own factions or alliances.  However, if they are caught, there may be negative repercussions.  The more crimes a player commits against members of his/her own Faction or Alliance, then the more Infamous he or she should become.  Until at some point, that player's character actually becomes KOS within the territory of his/her own Faction and/or Alliance.  At some point, the player might find his or her character labeled as a Wanted Criminal, have bounties placed on his/her head, or even be exiled/excommunicated from the Faction or Alliance altogether.

    But a player would eventually become Renowned for a large number of successful negative interactions with players who belong to an opposing Faction or Alliance.  At the same time, the player would become Infamous in the view of the opposing Faction or Alliance against which he or she accomplished these exploits.  Making it more difficult for the player to successfully infiltrate the territory of an opposing Faction or Alliance.

    Btw, do you think that players should be allowed to camp other players?  Or should there be a limit as to how many times a player can attack or kill another player they have already killed?*  Should a player be able to place a bounty on the character of another player who has killed their character?  By going to an NPC bounty master and putting up the sum for the reward?

    *Not saying there should be any limits on killing opposing player characters on Battlefields during a war or in Contested Areas (territories whose ownership is disputed).  Nor should any restrictions apply if a character who was just killed attacks the character who just killed him/her.  Or enters the Factional or Allied territory of the character who just killed him/her. 



    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    So, are you saying that most PVPers want a virtual playground that facilitates criminal behavior?

    No im just telling you what a PK is looking for, in the context of the converstaion
    Okay, so the general PKer wants easy, rich, or easy rich targets, but a PVPer may or may not be looking for a challenge?


    I think your average PvPer is looking for conquest , be it Land/Keeps/Rivals/Personal targets (Grudge)

      I think most want a good fight , its always fun ..

     Kicking Kittens for your average PVPer is not fun and myself and ive seen others not engage in that

    If the average PVPer doesn't like kicking kittens anyway, what's wrong with making it a little more difficult to kick kittens without some kind of negative consequence?

    you are mixing PvPer with Pk


      Very different mindset

    No, I think you established that there is a different mindset between the average PVPer and the average PKer.  I'm following you.

    I'm asking you if it is okay to develop and implement systems which discourage flagrant griefers and out-of-control kitten-kicking PKers while at the same time allowing PVPers to seek out the increased fun, challenge, risk, interest and excitement that they seek from a PVP/PVE MMORPG?

    If you punish Pkers to harshly they move on , and then that part of the game is just gone for everyone ..

      I was never one in the mindset that PKers should be punished (altho i dont like using that word for it)

     Noone should be Punished for playing the game using the rules and tools availble to everyone /....

      So its a tricky balance , and one i dont think can be done (with increased punishment).. .. and keep all crowds happy and in the game

      The PKs the PvPer.. and the PVers .. and any combination of the afore mentioned


      FFS PVers are the whinyest ime .. they are not happy even in there own sect .. Hence why we ends up with games like ESO and GW2 where everyone can Tank/DPS/Heal ... Let alone trying to balance OWPVP for them , they need it instanced .. Because they do not want to be hrmm interupted killing defensless orcs

    I think I see your point.

    I don't believe that any player should be Punished for any negative interactions with players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  Actually, in a Faction-based OWPVP/PVE Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG, I believe that the rules & systems can or should, in fact, encourage players to seek out negative interactions with other players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  However, this does not mean that this should always be easy.

    For example, I do not think that Dwarves should have an easy time infiltrating, exploring, and/or raiding a Territory claimed by Orcs (or vice versa).  Just as it should not be easy for Dark Elves to raid an Elven homeland (or vice versa).  Though Good or Evil Humans would probably have an easier time infiltrating the territory of a neutral or opposing Human Faction.  (Of course, neutral/independent factions may have more or less restrictive policies regarding strangers who wander into their territories.  Some may be more open and welcoming, some may be more guarded and strict.)  Not to say that disguises (natural or magical) couldn't be used by those races who would have a harder time going unnoticed in the lands of those races by whom they would not be welcomed. 

    However, Alliances and Factions would probably frown upon those players who sought to prey on or otherwise negatively impact other players (or NPCs) who are members of their own Faction or Alliance.  Not to say that that playing as a Criminal should be absolutely discouraged.  Nor am I saying that players should always be punished for robbing or killing members of their own factions or alliances.  However, if they are caught, there may be negative repercussions.  The more crimes a player commits against members of his/her own Faction or Alliance, then the more Infamous he or she should become.  Until at some point, that player's character actually becomes KOS within the territory of his/her own Faction and/or Alliance.  At some point, the player might find his or her character labeled as a Wanted Criminal, have bounties placed on his/her head, or even be exiled/excommunicated from the Faction or Alliance altogether.

    But a player would eventually become Renowned for a large number of successful negative interactions with players who belong to an opposing Faction or Alliance.  At the same time, the player would become Infamous in the view of the opposing Faction or Alliance against which he or she accomplished these exploits.  Making it more difficult for the player to successfully infiltrate the territory of an opposing Faction or Alliance.

    Btw, do you think that players should be allowed to camp other players?  Or should there be a limit as to how many times a player can attack or kill another player they have already killed?*  Should a player be able to place a bounty on the character of another player who has killed their character?  By going to an NPC bounty master and putting up the sum for the reward?

    *Not saying there should be any limits on Battlefields during a war or in Contested Areas (territories whose ownership is disputed).  Nor should any restrictions apply if a character who was just killed attacks the character who just killed him/her.  Or enters the Factional or Allied territory of the character who just killed him/her. 




    Of course not , but like i asked you earlier What game is that horrific tragedy taking place in where players are camped and killed over and over  , Most games have preventive measures in place to stop this .. And imo the only time it happens is when a player is very foolish almost ignorantly stupid ..



        Bounty do not work thats been tried and exploited already ..
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    If you punish Pkers to harshly they move on , and then that part of the game is just gone for everyone ..

      I was never one in the mindset that PKers should be punished (altho i dont like using that word for it)

     Noone should be Punished for playing the game using the rules and tools availble to everyone /....

      So its a tricky balance , and one i dont think can be done (with increased punishment).. .. and keep all crowds happy and in the game

      The PKs the PvPer.. and the PVers .. and any combination of the afore mentioned


      FFS PVers are the whinyest ime .. they are not happy even in there own sect .. Hence why we ends up with games like ESO and GW2 where everyone can Tank/DPS/Heal ... Let alone trying to balance OWPVP for them , they need it instanced .. Because they do not want to be hrmm interupted killing defensless orcs

    I think I see your point.

    I don't believe that any player should be Punished for any negative interactions with players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  Actually, in a Faction-based OWPVP/PVE Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG, I believe that the rules & systems can or should, in fact, encourage players to seek out negative interactions with other players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  However, this does not mean that this should always be easy.

    For example, I do not think that Dwarves should have an easy time infiltrating, exploring, and/or raiding a Territory claimed by Orcs (or vice versa).  Just as it should not be easy for Dark Elves to raid an Elven homeland (or vice versa).  Though Good or Evil Humans would probably have an easier time infiltrating the territory of a neutral or opposing Human Faction.  (Of course, neutral/independent factions may have more or less restrictive policies regarding strangers who wander into their territories.  Some may be more open and welcoming, some may be more guarded and strict.)  Not to say that disguises (natural or magical) couldn't be used by those races who would have a harder time going unnoticed in the lands of those races by whom they would not be welcomed. 

    However, Alliances and Factions would probably frown upon those players who sought to prey on or otherwise negatively impact other players (or NPCs) who are members of their own Faction or Alliance.  Not to say that that playing as a Criminal should be absolutely discouraged.  Nor am I saying that players should always be punished for robbing or killing members of their own factions or alliances.  However, if they are caught, there may be negative repercussions.  The more crimes a player commits against members of his/her own Faction or Alliance, then the more Infamous he or she should become.  Until at some point, that player's character actually becomes KOS within the territory of his/her own Faction and/or Alliance.  At some point, the player might find his or her character labeled as a Wanted Criminal, have bounties placed on his/her head, or even be exiled/excommunicated from the Faction or Alliance altogether.

    But a player would eventually become Renowned for a large number of successful negative interactions with players who belong to an opposing Faction or Alliance.  At the same time, the player would become Infamous in the view of the opposing Faction or Alliance against which he or she accomplished these exploits.  Making it more difficult for the player to successfully infiltrate the territory of an opposing Faction or Alliance.

    Btw, do you think that players should be allowed to camp other players?  Or should there be a limit as to how many times a player can attack or kill another player they have already killed?*  Should a player be able to place a bounty on the character of another player who has killed their character?  By going to an NPC bounty master and putting up the sum for the reward?

    *Not saying there should be any limits on Battlefields during a war or in Contested Areas (territories whose ownership is disputed).  Nor should any restrictions apply if a character who was just killed attacks the character who just killed him/her.  Or enters the Factional or Allied territory of the character who just killed him/her. 




    Of course not , but like i asked you earlier What game is that horrific tragedy taking place in where players are camped and killed over and over  , Most games have preventive measures in place to stop this .. And imo the only time it happens is when a player is very foolish almost ignorantly stupid ..



        Bounty do not work thats been tried and exploited already ..

    I don't know of a game where players are camped and killed over and over.  But I've read this complaint a few times, so I thought I should address it.  If this is no longer a problem in OWPVP games, great. 

    How about Bounties just as a fun game play mechanic?  I mean, that is a way that local, regional, or even national governments have often dealt with criminals in the past.  Or do you think that players should not be allowed to place bounties themselves, and only NPCs of a certain Faction should place bounties on the players who have become the most Infamous (in that particular Faction's view)?

    (Btw, what do you think about the other concepts I wrote about?  Of course, I'm not saying that some of those concepts don't already exist in certain games in one way or another.)

    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    If you punish Pkers to harshly they move on , and then that part of the game is just gone for everyone ..

      I was never one in the mindset that PKers should be punished (altho i dont like using that word for it)

     Noone should be Punished for playing the game using the rules and tools availble to everyone /....

      So its a tricky balance , and one i dont think can be done (with increased punishment).. .. and keep all crowds happy and in the game

      The PKs the PvPer.. and the PVers .. and any combination of the afore mentioned


      FFS PVers are the whinyest ime .. they are not happy even in there own sect .. Hence why we ends up with games like ESO and GW2 where everyone can Tank/DPS/Heal ... Let alone trying to balance OWPVP for them , they need it instanced .. Because they do not want to be hrmm interupted killing defensless orcs

    I think I see your point.

    I don't believe that any player should be Punished for any negative interactions with players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  Actually, in a Faction-based OWPVP/PVE Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG, I believe that the rules & systems can or should, in fact, encourage players to seek out negative interactions with other players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  However, this does not mean that this should always be easy.

    For example, I do not think that Dwarves should have an easy time infiltrating, exploring, and/or raiding a Territory claimed by Orcs (or vice versa).  Just as it should not be easy for Dark Elves to raid an Elven homeland (or vice versa).  Though Good or Evil Humans would probably have an easier time infiltrating the territory of a neutral or opposing Human Faction.  (Of course, neutral/independent factions may have more or less restrictive policies regarding strangers who wander into their territories.  Some may be more open and welcoming, some may be more guarded and strict.)  Not to say that disguises (natural or magical) couldn't be used by those races who would have a harder time going unnoticed in the lands of those races by whom they would not be welcomed. 

    However, Alliances and Factions would probably frown upon those players who sought to prey on or otherwise negatively impact other players (or NPCs) who are members of their own Faction or Alliance.  Not to say that that playing as a Criminal should be absolutely discouraged.  Nor am I saying that players should always be punished for robbing or killing members of their own factions or alliances.  However, if they are caught, there may be negative repercussions.  The more crimes a player commits against members of his/her own Faction or Alliance, then the more Infamous he or she should become.  Until at some point, that player's character actually becomes KOS within the territory of his/her own Faction and/or Alliance.  At some point, the player might find his or her character labeled as a Wanted Criminal, have bounties placed on his/her head, or even be exiled/excommunicated from the Faction or Alliance altogether.

    But a player would eventually become Renowned for a large number of successful negative interactions with players who belong to an opposing Faction or Alliance.  At the same time, the player would become Infamous in the view of the opposing Faction or Alliance against which he or she accomplished these exploits.  Making it more difficult for the player to successfully infiltrate the territory of an opposing Faction or Alliance.

    Btw, do you think that players should be allowed to camp other players?  Or should there be a limit as to how many times a player can attack or kill another player they have already killed?*  Should a player be able to place a bounty on the character of another player who has killed their character?  By going to an NPC bounty master and putting up the sum for the reward?

    *Not saying there should be any limits on Battlefields during a war or in Contested Areas (territories whose ownership is disputed).  Nor should any restrictions apply if a character who was just killed attacks the character who just killed him/her.  Or enters the Factional or Allied territory of the character who just killed him/her. 




    Of course not , but like i asked you earlier What game is that horrific tragedy taking place in where players are camped and killed over and over  , Most games have preventive measures in place to stop this .. And imo the only time it happens is when a player is very foolish almost ignorantly stupid ..



        Bounty do not work thats been tried and exploited already ..

    I don't know of a game where players are camped and killed over and over.  But I've read this complaint a few times, so I thought I should address it.  If this is no longer a problem in OWPVP games, great. 

    How about Bounties just as a fun game play mechanic?  I mean, that is a way that local, regional, or even national governments have often dealt with criminals in the past.  Or do you think that players should not be allowed to place bounties themselves, and only NPCs of a certain Faction should place bounties on the players who have become the most Infamous (in that particular Faction's view)?

    (Btw, what do you think about the other concepts I wrote about?  Of course, I'm not saying that some of those concepts don't already exist in certain games in one way or another.)


    Thats cause it really does not happen that often any longer(and if you do find it , it will be a player acting Very foolishly) .. Most games have prevention in for it .. or just have Instanced PvP .. /end

     but thats just not the same feel as OWMMORPG


     Bounty have already been tried and exploited , or worked around by PKs , it gets abused and exploited or worked around , use your imgination im sure you will see some of them ..
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 17
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    If you punish Pkers to harshly they move on , and then that part of the game is just gone for everyone ..

      I was never one in the mindset that PKers should be punished (altho i dont like using that word for it)

     Noone should be Punished for playing the game using the rules and tools availble to everyone /....

      So its a tricky balance , and one i dont think can be done (with increased punishment).. .. and keep all crowds happy and in the game

      The PKs the PvPer.. and the PVers .. and any combination of the afore mentioned


      FFS PVers are the whinyest ime .. they are not happy even in there own sect .. Hence why we ends up with games like ESO and GW2 where everyone can Tank/DPS/Heal ... Let alone trying to balance OWPVP for them , they need it instanced .. Because they do not want to be hrmm interupted killing defensless orcs

    I think I see your point.

    I don't believe that any player should be Punished for any negative interactions with players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  Actually, in a Faction-based OWPVP/PVE Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG, I believe that the rules & systems can or should, in fact, encourage players to seek out negative interactions with other players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  However, this does not mean that this should always be easy.

    For example, I do not think that Dwarves should have an easy time infiltrating, exploring, and/or raiding a Territory claimed by Orcs (or vice versa).  Just as it should not be easy for Dark Elves to raid an Elven homeland (or vice versa).  Though Good or Evil Humans would probably have an easier time infiltrating the territory of a neutral or opposing Human Faction.  (Of course, neutral/independent factions may have more or less restrictive policies regarding strangers who wander into their territories.  Some may be more open and welcoming, some may be more guarded and strict.)  Not to say that disguises (natural or magical) couldn't be used by those races who would have a harder time going unnoticed in the lands of those races by whom they would not be welcomed. 

    However, Alliances and Factions would probably frown upon those players who sought to prey on or otherwise negatively impact other players (or NPCs) who are members of their own Faction or Alliance.  Not to say that that playing as a Criminal should be absolutely discouraged.  Nor am I saying that players should always be punished for robbing or killing members of their own factions or alliances.  However, if they are caught, there may be negative repercussions.  The more crimes a player commits against members of his/her own Faction or Alliance, then the more Infamous he or she should become.  Until at some point, that player's character actually becomes KOS within the territory of his/her own Faction and/or Alliance.  At some point, the player might find his or her character labeled as a Wanted Criminal, have bounties placed on his/her head, or even be exiled/excommunicated from the Faction or Alliance altogether.

    But a player would eventually become Renowned for a large number of successful negative interactions with players who belong to an opposing Faction or Alliance.  At the same time, the player would become Infamous in the view of the opposing Faction or Alliance against which he or she accomplished these exploits.  Making it more difficult for the player to successfully infiltrate the territory of an opposing Faction or Alliance.

    Btw, do you think that players should be allowed to camp other players?  Or should there be a limit as to how many times a player can attack or kill another player they have already killed?*  Should a player be able to place a bounty on the character of another player who has killed their character?  By going to an NPC bounty master and putting up the sum for the reward?

    *Not saying there should be any limits on Battlefields during a war or in Contested Areas (territories whose ownership is disputed).  Nor should any restrictions apply if a character who was just killed attacks the character who just killed him/her.  Or enters the Factional or Allied territory of the character who just killed him/her. 




    Of course not , but like i asked you earlier What game is that horrific tragedy taking place in where players are camped and killed over and over  , Most games have preventive measures in place to stop this .. And imo the only time it happens is when a player is very foolish almost ignorantly stupid ..



        Bounty do not work thats been tried and exploited already ..

    I don't know of a game where players are camped and killed over and over.  But I've read this complaint a few times, so I thought I should address it.  If this is no longer a problem in OWPVP games, great. 

    How about Bounties just as a fun game play mechanic?  I mean, that is a way that local, regional, or even national governments have often dealt with criminals in the past.  Or do you think that players should not be allowed to place bounties themselves, and only NPCs of a certain Faction should place bounties on the players who have become the most Infamous (in that particular Faction's view)?

    (Btw, what do you think about the other concepts I wrote about?  Of course, I'm not saying that some of those concepts don't already exist in certain games in one way or another.)


    Thats cause it really does not happen that often any longer(and if you do find it , it will be a player acting Very foolishly) .. Most games have prevention in for it .. or just have Instanced PvP .. /end

     but thats just not the same feel as OWMMORPG


     Bounty have already been tried and exploited , or worked around by PKs , it gets abused and exploited or worked around , use your imgination im sure you will see some of them ..

    Right.

    Yes, I understand how a bounty system can be exploited.  But you don't think there's any way to make a bounty system that can't be exploited?  What would an Old West MMORPG be without bounties placed on outlaws?  Well, I guess there could just be bounties placed on NPC outlaws.  Though it wouldn't make sense if PC outlaws never got bounties placed on them.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,223
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    If you punish Pkers to harshly they move on , and then that part of the game is just gone for everyone ..

      I was never one in the mindset that PKers should be punished (altho i dont like using that word for it)

     Noone should be Punished for playing the game using the rules and tools availble to everyone /....

      So its a tricky balance , and one i dont think can be done (with increased punishment).. .. and keep all crowds happy and in the game

      The PKs the PvPer.. and the PVers .. and any combination of the afore mentioned


      FFS PVers are the whinyest ime .. they are not happy even in there own sect .. Hence why we ends up with games like ESO and GW2 where everyone can Tank/DPS/Heal ... Let alone trying to balance OWPVP for them , they need it instanced .. Because they do not want to be hrmm interupted killing defensless orcs

    I think I see your point.

    I don't believe that any player should be Punished for any negative interactions with players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  Actually, in a Faction-based OWPVP/PVE Non-linear/Sandbox MMORPG, I believe that the rules & systems can or should, in fact, encourage players to seek out negative interactions with other players of an opposing Faction or Alliance.  However, this does not mean that this should always be easy.

    For example, I do not think that Dwarves should have an easy time infiltrating, exploring, and/or raiding a Territory claimed by Orcs (or vice versa).  Just as it should not be easy for Dark Elves to raid an Elven homeland (or vice versa).  Though Good or Evil Humans would probably have an easier time infiltrating the territory of a neutral or opposing Human Faction.  (Of course, neutral/independent factions may have more or less restrictive policies regarding strangers who wander into their territories.  Some may be more open and welcoming, some may be more guarded and strict.)  Not to say that disguises (natural or magical) couldn't be used by those races who would have a harder time going unnoticed in the lands of those races by whom they would not be welcomed. 

    However, Alliances and Factions would probably frown upon those players who sought to prey on or otherwise negatively impact other players (or NPCs) who are members of their own Faction or Alliance.  Not to say that that playing as a Criminal should be absolutely discouraged.  Nor am I saying that players should always be punished for robbing or killing members of their own factions or alliances.  However, if they are caught, there may be negative repercussions.  The more crimes a player commits against members of his/her own Faction or Alliance, then the more Infamous he or she should become.  Until at some point, that player's character actually becomes KOS within the territory of his/her own Faction and/or Alliance.  At some point, the player might find his or her character labeled as a Wanted Criminal, have bounties placed on his/her head, or even be exiled/excommunicated from the Faction or Alliance altogether.

    But a player would eventually become Renowned for a large number of successful negative interactions with players who belong to an opposing Faction or Alliance.  At the same time, the player would become Infamous in the view of the opposing Faction or Alliance against which he or she accomplished these exploits.  Making it more difficult for the player to successfully infiltrate the territory of an opposing Faction or Alliance.

    Btw, do you think that players should be allowed to camp other players?  Or should there be a limit as to how many times a player can attack or kill another player they have already killed?*  Should a player be able to place a bounty on the character of another player who has killed their character?  By going to an NPC bounty master and putting up the sum for the reward?

    *Not saying there should be any limits on Battlefields during a war or in Contested Areas (territories whose ownership is disputed).  Nor should any restrictions apply if a character who was just killed attacks the character who just killed him/her.  Or enters the Factional or Allied territory of the character who just killed him/her. 




    Of course not , but like i asked you earlier What game is that horrific tragedy taking place in where players are camped and killed over and over  , Most games have preventive measures in place to stop this .. And imo the only time it happens is when a player is very foolish almost ignorantly stupid ..



        Bounty do not work thats been tried and exploited already ..

    I don't know of a game where players are camped and killed over and over.  But I've read this complaint a few times, so I thought I should address it.  If this is no longer a problem in OWPVP games, great. 

    How about Bounties just as a fun game play mechanic?  I mean, that is a way that local, regional, or even national governments have often dealt with criminals in the past.  Or do you think that players should not be allowed to place bounties themselves, and only NPCs of a certain Faction should place bounties on the players who have become the most Infamous (in that particular Faction's view)?

    (Btw, what do you think about the other concepts I wrote about?  Of course, I'm not saying that some of those concepts don't already exist in certain games in one way or another.)


    Thats cause it really does not happen that often any longer(and if you do find it , it will be a player acting Very foolishly) .. Most games have prevention in for it .. or just have Instanced PvP .. /end

     but thats just not the same feel as OWMMORPG


     Bounty have already been tried and exploited , or worked around by PKs , it gets abused and exploited or worked around , use your imgination im sure you will see some of them ..
    In WvWvW games, like for example, GW2, spawn camping does happen. Not like they can kill you were spawn in, as that is protected, but large and sometimes small packs of players will roam around the spawn location and jump/kill anyone trying to leave the spawn point.

    So that is still very common in a game like GW2, not sure how it is in other modern games.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,373
    Played an Engie and Ranger from 30- 80 in WVW , it was not very common ,you can switch map spawn Location (tools to avoid it in place)  and you have nothing to lose , so just not the same as OWMMORPG
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 17

    But really, I think that main problem with PVP in MMORPGs is Huge Power Gaps between Top Tier Veteran players and New Players/Noobs.


    Also, why should players be able to see the names, classes, and levels of PCs, NPCs, or Mobs?  Why should they be able to see more than what characters are wearing and wielding?  As in the appearance of them.  Unless the weapons are hidden.  Armor could also be covered by a cloak or whatever.  Some people might even use disguises, natural or magical. 

    Actually inspecting a person requires someone to get rather up close and personal.  I don't think most strangers would be comfortable with that.  Even then, how and why should players be able to know what the stats of a particular piece of equipment has on it?  Unless maybe they cast an identify object spell on a certain piece of equipment.  I don't know though.  Someone might decide to throw a rock at some unknown individual who is obviously trying to cast some kind of spell on him/her or at him/her.  Interrupting a strange person casting an unknown spell is probably wise in most cases.  But even if the Identify spell is successful, shouldn't it only tell the caster whether or not something is magical, divine, or somehow supernatural?  It shouldn't be able to tell the exact stats the weapon or equipment has on it, should it?  Though some more powerful sort of Identify spell might tell a caster more about the specific nature of the magic or power with which the item is imbued. 

    And why should players initially be able to tell the difference between an NPC and a PC?  Except maybe if they try to involve the character in a conversation.


    Now, there could be some sort of automatic Perception roll made (based on a character's Intelligence, Observational Skills, Knowledge, and Expertise in certain areas) when inspecting another character.  Though the player wouldn't know if this roll succeeded or failed (always a chance of failure).  Regardless, the player would get some sort of text message like, this person seems weak/inept, of about the same ability/power as you/capable, this person seems strong/impressive, or this person makes you sweat a little/has an intimidating presence.  Something like that. 
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    Scorchien
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

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