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UO vs EQ

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  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Scorchien said:

    you obviously do not read your own threads ..

    Hey, @Scorchien

    Do players who like PVP MMORPGs just want to kill other people's characters, or do they play PVP for increased challenge, risk, excitement, and interest?

    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,226
    Scorchien said:

    you obviously do not read your own threads ..

    Hey, @Scorchien

    Do players who like PVP MMORPGs just want to kill other people's characters, or do they play PVP for increased challenge, risk, excitement, and interest?


    Yes.
    UngoodkitaradSovrath

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    AlBQuirky said:
    Scorchien said:

    you obviously do not read your own threads ..

    Hey, @Scorchien

    Do players who like PVP MMORPGs just want to kill other people's characters, or do they play PVP for increased challenge, risk, excitement, and interest?


    Yes.
    LOL yah.. there is no "Or" on that.
    Sovrath
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364
    Scorchien said:

    you obviously do not read your own threads ..

    Hey, @Scorchien

    Do players who like PVP MMORPGs just want to kill other people's characters, or do they play PVP for increased challenge, risk, excitement, and interest?


    I play for the Increased challenge , Risk/Reward , and excitement yes also social interactions, it brings a level of fun i cant find in other games , I still go into Fel all the time with guild and solo , and its still fun ..

       But i also knew going in that the chances were high for PVP , and i welcome that ..
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,590
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.
    Ancient_ExileAlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    Ancient_Exile
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    you obviously do not read your own threads ..

    Hey, @Scorchien

    Do players who like PVP MMORPGs just want to kill other people's characters, or do they play PVP for increased challenge, risk, excitement, and interest?


    I play for the Increased challenge , Risk/Reward , and excitement yes also social interactions, it brings a level of fun i cant find in other games , I still go into Fel all the time with guild and solo , and its still fun ..

       But i also knew going in that the chances were high for PVP , and i welcome that ..

    So if the main draw is increased challenge, risk/reward, and excitement, what is the problem with PVP/PVE games having systems of Justice/Law & Order and potential consequences for choices & actions (positive and negative) that make it a little more difficult to just kill whoever a player wants anytime they can?
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,590
    edited May 15
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    Ancient_ExileAlBQuirky
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,171
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    You would be correct. Most people never knew anything about previous online games before UO. 
    I don't know much about them even today. 
    Meridian 59, I think they had PvP, but what did they have for numbers? 

    "By June 1999, Meridian 59's retail sales in the United States had reached 14,359 units, according to PC Data. A writer for GameDaily called these numbers "miniscule", and remarked that it had "clearly fizzled on store shelves". However, the publication noted that 3DO had changed its business model to rely on online shopping and microtransactions, and had seen monetary success despite its poor sales in stores.[10] Next Generation columnist Christian Svensson commented that despite the game's monthly pricing being roundly derided by a panel consisting of the heads of seven leading online gaming services at the September 1996 Online Game Developer's Conference, who said any flat rate system was unsustainable and "naive", "Since that time, we have seen the official launch of many online gaming services, and most have learned what consumers and the press have been telling them all along: A fair flat rate is the only way services will get subscribers.""

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_59

    14,359 units sold, and UO and EQ took charge of the market at that point. 

    I don't recall the other game I had heard about, something like "Blade" I think. With something like 200 total accounts, sticks in my mind. A side scrolling MMORPG, from what I recall. 
    But I could be way off on that, and that's entirely hearsay. 

    Once upon a time....

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.
    AlBQuirky
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 15
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.

    Like, stop talking about the Real World.  This is a Role-Playing Game.  If you want to talk about the Real World, go to a Forum, a Chat Room, (or now Social Media).  <casts Fireball> at offending player.  Or <casts Polymorph> and turns offending player into a goat.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:

    you obviously do not read your own threads ..

    Hey, @Scorchien

    Do players who like PVP MMORPGs just want to kill other people's characters, or do they play PVP for increased challenge, risk, excitement, and interest?


    I play for the Increased challenge , Risk/Reward , and excitement yes also social interactions, it brings a level of fun i cant find in other games , I still go into Fel all the time with guild and solo , and its still fun ..

       But i also knew going in that the chances were high for PVP , and i welcome that ..

    So if the main draw is increased challenge, risk/reward, and excitement, what is the problem with PVP/PVE games having systems of Justice/Law & Order and potential consequences for choices & actions (positive and negative) that make it a little more difficult to just kill whoever a player wants anytime they can?

    Thats a pretty tuff  task , And just read this thread some of the ridiculous ideas would never see the light of day ..

     And most have been discussed in one iteration or another ..  here other sites and in Small to AAA Dev/Pub houses ..( iVe sat in those rooms)

       If you make the punishment ( which is a bad joke to begin with ) to harsh the PVPErs will not come , to soft and the snowflakes will cry ..

       The fact is you are given the same exact tools and mechanics as any PKer , learn to use them , I see people in the threads here crying its unfair .. Thats weak you have the same Exact Tools , Mechainics and Oppurtunity to turn the table and fight back ..

       But most (some in this very thread ) would prefer to weaken and punish there (PKs) opponent instead of fighting on equal ground .. Making it all but impossible for any OWPVP to occur .. We have Giant Mts and Dragons breathing hellfire down on PKs lmfao ..

         You have the same Skills/ Mechanics/ Tools/Tricks etc at your disposal learn to use them , instead of crippling your opponent ..

      Or just stay out of OWPVP games , there are plenty of PVE games some very good ones i play most of them myself .. (just hit 80 with my Ranger in Neverwinter last nite)

      
    Amaranthartzervo
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,171
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.
    Those games were run differently. 
    They had incentives to RP. I see GemStone IV had XP rewards for good roleplaying, and the GMs could also wipe your pool of XP bonus (if you had'nt used it yet) for not RPing. 

    They also had a lot more GMs per player than what games can do these days, with so many accounts. 

    That's not the same PvP experience as UO or other games have had. 

    Once upon a time....

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    You would be correct. Most people never knew anything about previous online games before UO. 
    I don't know much about them even today. 
    Meridian 59, I think they had PvP, but what did they have for numbers? 

    "By June 1999, Meridian 59's retail sales in the United States had reached 14,359 units, according to PC Data. A writer for GameDaily called these numbers "miniscule", and remarked that it had "clearly fizzled on store shelves". However, the publication noted that 3DO had changed its business model to rely on online shopping and microtransactions, and had seen monetary success despite its poor sales in stores.[10] Next Generation columnist Christian Svensson commented that despite the game's monthly pricing being roundly derided by a panel consisting of the heads of seven leading online gaming services at the September 1996 Online Game Developer's Conference, who said any flat rate system was unsustainable and "naive", "Since that time, we have seen the official launch of many online gaming services, and most have learned what consumers and the press have been telling them all along: A fair flat rate is the only way services will get subscribers.""

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_59

    14,359 units sold, and UO and EQ took charge of the market at that point. 

    I don't recall the other game I had heard about, something like "Blade" I think. With something like 200 total accounts, sticks in my mind. A side scrolling MMORPG, from what I recall. 
    But I could be way off on that, and that's entirely hearsay. 


    Neverwinter in early 90s had fun PVP , even Ladders for it .. Also 115,00 players .. so yea

       There are other games with PVP at that time .. also .. And lets remember UO was in Beta for quite awhile with no NDA there was tons of info flooding the PC world about it at that time .. Thats why it drew so many at launch .. Because people heard about it/ watched it / read about it ..

      You act like 100,000 Hellen Kellers rushed out and purchased UO blindly .. fucking ridiuclous

      People knew and if anyone bought UO logged in looked at the box Read and agreed to the EULA , and then were surprised and shocked they got ganked outside Brit , they are a fucking idiot , simple as that and deserve exactly what they got ..

     Just the gaming Gods way of thinning the herd...
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Scorchien said:

    Thats a pretty tuff  task , And just read this thread some of the ridiculous ideas would never see the light of day ..

     And most have been discussed in one iteration or another ..  here other sites and in Small to AAA Dev/Pub houses ..( iVe sat in those rooms)

       If you make the punishment ( which is a bad joke to begin with ) to harsh the PVPErs will not come , to soft and the snowflakes will cry ..

       The fact is you are given the same exact tools and mechanics as any PKer , learn to use them , I see people in the threads here crying its unfair .. Thats weak you have the same Exact Tools , Mechainics and Oppurtunity to turn the table and fight back ..

       But most (some in this very thread ) would prefer to weaken and punish there (PKs) opponent instead of fighting on equal ground .. Making it all but impossible for any OWPVP to occur .. We have Giant Mts and Dragons breathing hellfire down on PKs lmfao ..

         You have the same Skills/ Mechanics/ Tools/Tricks etc at your disposal learn to use them , instead of crippling your opponent ..

      Or just stay out of OWPVP games , there are plenty of PVE games some very good ones i play most of them myself .. (just hit 80 with my Ranger in Neverwinter last nite)

      

    To me, it's about encouraging players to have a reason for fighting, looting, killing or otherwise negatively interacting with other players in PVP.  Because these are role-playing games, and players are supposed to be playing the role of a character in an alternate or fantasy world (regardless of genre). 

    Now, sure, if a dwarf and an orc run into each other somewhere, chances are they're going to fight.  Same with an elf and a dark elf. 

    However, I  think that players should be discouraged from going around killing anyone anywhere anytime just because they can.  Such as players preying on noobs or anyone weaker than themselves for no rhyme or reason. 

    Also, there's no such thing as equal ground in a lot of these PVP MMORGPs if the player didn't start the game at launch.  There's no way for equal ground to exist between a lvl 20 PC and a lvl 60 PC.  The older a game gets, it becomes increasingly difficult for a new player to level and gain power without getting hunted or ganked by higher level players. 

    So, that's why I say that there should be limited/more realistic combat power progression/gear progression.  So that a top tier veteran player would still be vulnerable to attacks/ambushes by 10-20 noobs.  But then there should also be different kinds of power besides combat power in the game in which a character can progress.  Otherwise, players will lose interest in the game eventually. 

    It's true that a player should not expect to be able to go gather materials or whatever in a dangerous wilderness by him or herself.  Games like WoW have conditioned players that they should have this kind of freedom, but obviously this is stupid.  A Medieval Fantasy world should be very dangerous. 

    However, within the bounds of one's own factional territory (or that of an allied faction), there should be a certain level of safety as compared to a wilderness, less populated area, or the territory of a neutral, opposing, or enemy Faction.  PCs should not find it easy to enter the territory of a neutral or opposing Faction.  Neither should bandits find it easy to operate within the territory of a faction that has any kind of military.

    Of course, there could be areas where PVP occurs often.  Such as when two or more factions are at war, there would certainly be major battlefields.  And even when open warfare is not occurring, there could still be contested areas (containing resources, forts, settlements, trade routes, strategic locations, and even dungeons).


    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,364
    edited May 15
    Scorchien said:

    Thats a pretty tuff  task , And just read this thread some of the ridiculous ideas would never see the light of day ..

     And most have been discussed in one iteration or another ..  here other sites and in Small to AAA Dev/Pub houses ..( iVe sat in those rooms)

       If you make the punishment ( which is a bad joke to begin with ) to harsh the PVPErs will not come , to soft and the snowflakes will cry ..

       The fact is you are given the same exact tools and mechanics as any PKer , learn to use them , I see people in the threads here crying its unfair .. Thats weak you have the same Exact Tools , Mechainics and Oppurtunity to turn the table and fight back ..

       But most (some in this very thread ) would prefer to weaken and punish there (PKs) opponent instead of fighting on equal ground .. Making it all but impossible for any OWPVP to occur .. We have Giant Mts and Dragons breathing hellfire down on PKs lmfao ..

         You have the same Skills/ Mechanics/ Tools/Tricks etc at your disposal learn to use them , instead of crippling your opponent ..

      Or just stay out of OWPVP games , there are plenty of PVE games some very good ones i play most of them myself .. (just hit 80 with my Ranger in Neverwinter last nite)

      

    To me, it's about encouraging players to have a reason for fighting, looting, killing or otherwise negatively interacting with other players in PVP.  Because these are role-playing games, and players are supposed to be playing the role of a character in an alternate or fantasy world (regardless of genre). 

    Now, sure, if a dwarf and an orc run into each other somewhere, chances are they're going to fight.  Same with an elf and a dark elf. 

    However, I  think that players should be discouraged from going around killing anyone anywhere anytime just because they can.  Such as players preying on noobs or anyone weaker than themselves for no rhyme or reason. 

    Also, there's no such thing as equal ground in a lot of these PVP MMORGPs if the player didn't start the game at launch.  There's no way for equal ground to exist between a lvl 20 PC and a lvl 60 PC.  The older a game gets, it becomes increasingly difficult for a new player to level and gain power without getting hunted or ganked by higher level players. 

    So, that's why I say that there should be limited/more realistic combat power progression/gear progression.  So that a top tier veteran player would still be vulnerable to attacks/ambushes by 10-20 noobs.  But then there should also be different kinds of power besides combat power in the game in which a character can progress.  Otherwise, players will lose interest in the game eventually. 

    It's true that a player should not expect to be able to go gather materials or whatever in a dangerous wilderness by him or herself.  Games like WoW have conditioned players that they should have this kind of freedom, but obviously this is stupid.  A Medieval Fantasy world should be very dangerous. 

    However, within the bounds of one's own factional territory (or that of an allied faction), there should be a certain level of safety as compared to a wilderness, less populated area, or the territory of a neutral, opposing, or enemy Faction.  PCs should not find it easy to enter the territory of a neutral or opposing Faction.  Neither should bandits find it easy to operate within the territory of a faction that has any kind of military.

    Of course, there could be areas where PVP occurs often.  Such as when two or more factions are at war, there would certainly be major battlefields.  And even when open warfare is not occurring, there could still be contested areas (containing resources, forts, settlements, trade routes, strategic locations, and even dungeons).



    What game is this rampant pking of Noobs happening in right now .. Where it is not the fault of the player .. Point to one , because most games already have preventive measures built in , the only time what you describe is possible is if a player stupidly runs into the same PKs over and over for no apparent reason ..

     Its pretty isolated instances anymore, like i said most games have measures in place .. Instance PVP , Lvl Restrictions etc ..

      The wussification of OWPVP already happened , but some want to further neuter it ..

     Till it does not exist .. You cannot employ the rules and restrictions like those in this thread and expect PVPers to play in them in an OWPVP game ..

     DOes anyone hear really think none of these ideas or some version of have not been kicked around at Dev Tables over the last 25 years .. They have .. There is a reason there are not implemented ..

      They wont work ... For a plethora of reasons from every angle and spectrum you can look at them thru , its been done ..

    If you want PvPers the targets have to be attractive to them , and accesible on a fairly regular basis .. or they will go somewhere else ..

      The very reasons that UO(Fel is still quite active )  and Eve survive all these years is because they offer what OW PvPers want ..

      The reason we see so many other attempts fail and shutter are the OWPVP was bad .. and/or restrictive ..
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.

    Like, stop talking about the Real World.  This is a Role-Playing Game.  If you want to talk about the Real World, go to a Forum, a Chat Room, (or now Social Media).  <casts Fireball> at offending player.  Or <casts Polymorph> and turns offending player into a goat.
    To coin a phrase "Don't tell me what to do"
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.
    Those games were run differently. 
    They had incentives to RP. I see GemStone IV had XP rewards for good roleplaying, and the GMs could also wipe your pool of XP bonus (if you had'nt used it yet) for not RPing. 

    They also had a lot more GMs per player than what games can do these days, with so many accounts. 

    That's not the same PvP experience as UO or other games have had. 
    Yah.. RP bonus. LOL.. that was a cute feature, they were about as common as a GM event in EQ.

    Just saying.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.

    Like, stop talking about the Real World.  This is a Role-Playing Game.  If you want to talk about the Real World, go to a Forum, a Chat Room, (or now Social Media).  <casts Fireball> at offending player.  Or <casts Polymorph> and turns offending player into a goat.
    To coin a phrase "Don't tell me what to do"

    I wasn't telling you what to do here on this forum.  But if there's PVP in a game, I could certainly try to tell you what to do.  Before or after initiating combat.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.

    Like, stop talking about the Real World.  This is a Role-Playing Game.  If you want to talk about the Real World, go to a Forum, a Chat Room, (or now Social Media).  <casts Fireball> at offending player.  Or <casts Polymorph> and turns offending player into a goat.
    To coin a phrase "Don't tell me what to do"

    I wasn't telling you what to do here on this forum.  But if there's PVP in a game, I could certainly try to tell you what to do.  Before or after initiating combat.
    Well thanks for clearing up that you just want PvP to be a bully.. 

    Why am I not the least bit surprised? 
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    edited May 16
    Scorchien said:

    To me, it's about encouraging players to have a reason for fighting, looting, killing or otherwise negatively interacting with other players in PVP.  Because these are role-playing games, and players are supposed to be playing the role of a character in an alternate or fantasy world (regardless of genre). 

    Now, sure, if a dwarf and an orc run into each other somewhere, chances are they're going to fight.  Same with an elf and a dark elf. 

    However, I  think that players should be discouraged from going around killing anyone anywhere anytime just because they can.  Such as players preying on noobs or anyone weaker than themselves for no rhyme or reason. 

    Also, there's no such thing as equal ground in a lot of these PVP MMORGPs if the player didn't start the game at launch.  There's no way for equal ground to exist between a lvl 20 PC and a lvl 60 PC.  The older a game gets, it becomes increasingly difficult for a new player to level and gain power without getting hunted or ganked by higher level players. 

    So, that's why I say that there should be limited/more realistic combat power progression/gear progression.  So that a top tier veteran player would still be vulnerable to attacks/ambushes by 10-20 noobs.  But then there should also be different kinds of power besides combat power in the game in which a character can progress.  Otherwise, players will lose interest in the game eventually. 

    It's true that a player should not expect to be able to go gather materials or whatever in a dangerous wilderness by him or herself.  Games like WoW have conditioned players that they should have this kind of freedom, but obviously this is stupid.  A Medieval Fantasy world should be very dangerous. 

    However, within the bounds of one's own factional territory (or that of an allied faction), there should be a certain level of safety as compared to a wilderness, less populated area, or the territory of a neutral, opposing, or enemy Faction.  PCs should not find it easy to enter the territory of a neutral or opposing Faction.  Neither should bandits find it easy to operate within the territory of a faction that has any kind of military.

    Of course, there could be areas where PVP occurs often.  Such as when two or more factions are at war, there would certainly be major battlefields.  And even when open warfare is not occurring, there could still be contested areas (containing resources, forts, settlements, trade routes, strategic locations, and even dungeons).



    What game is this rampant pking of Noobs happening in right now .. Where it is not the fault of the player .. Point to one , because most games already have preventive measures built in , the only time what you describe is possible is if a player stupidly runs into the same PKs over and over for no apparent reason ..

     Its pretty isolated instances anymore, like i said most games have measures in place .. Instance PVP , Lvl Restrictions etc ..

      The wussification of OWPVP already happened , but some want to further neuter it ..

     Till it does not exist .. You cannot employ the rules and restrictions like those in this thread and expect PVPers to play in them in an OWPVP game ..

     DOes anyone hear really think none of these ideas or some version of have not been kicked around at Dev Tables over the last 25 years .. They have .. There is a reason there are not implemented ..

      They wont work ... For a plethora of reasons from every angle and spectrum you can look at them thru , its been done ..

    If you want PvPers the targets have to be attractive to them , and accesible on a fairly regular basis .. or they will go somewhere else ..

      The very reasons that UO(Fel is still quite active )  and Eve survive all these years is because they offer what OW PvPers want ..

      The reason we see so many other attempts fail and shutter are the OWPVP was bad .. and/or restrictive ..

    I'm not saying that all of the ideas presented in this thread or others should or could be implemented.

    Ultima Online is 23 years old, not 3D, and I can't even play a Dwarf, can I?

    EVE Online is a space battleship game.  Something I have little to no interest in playing.  Even though I installed it and docked a few days ago.

    Why do you think that a game world featuring what I described in my previous post would not provide attractive targets* to PVPers?  Or that those targets would not be accessible on a fairly regular basis? 

    For instance, there would be merchant (PC or NPC) caravans traveling along trade routes.  PCs traveling to different cities, dungeons, or other places outside of their own territory.  Like maybe an Artisan has hired some adventurers to go get some pelts from a certain type of animal that only makes its habitat in a certain location.  But this means the adventurers have to make their way through a wilderness that brings them close to enemy territory.  Or they have to actually pass through enemy territory to reach this place.

    Instanced PVP can be cool.  If Neverwinter would use Approximate Gear Score Categories for PVP, have PVP matches with scenarios and goals other than just kill the other team, and have a PVP campaign with Factions, it could be pretty fun.  But whoever is in charge of Neverwinter won't do that, so oh well.

    You don't need Level Restrictions if PCs aren't allowed to become gods compared to noobs.

    Anyway, there are 2 MMORPGs that have somewhat decent OWPVP.  UO (1997) and EVE (2003).  Some say Lineage 2 (2003) or Age of Wushu (2012) had decent OWPVP, but I don't know.  DAOC (2001) was supposed to be good, but I think only having 3 Factions was a weakness.


    *EDIT:  What is an attractive target to PVPers?  Are they looking for a challenge or sure wins/easy kills?
    Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • Ancient_ExileAncient_Exile Member RarePosts: 1,303
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.

    Like, stop talking about the Real World.  This is a Role-Playing Game.  If you want to talk about the Real World, go to a Forum, a Chat Room, (or now Social Media).  <casts Fireball> at offending player.  Or <casts Polymorph> and turns offending player into a goat.
    To coin a phrase "Don't tell me what to do"

    I wasn't telling you what to do here on this forum.  But if there's PVP in a game, I could certainly try to tell you what to do.  Before or after initiating combat.
    Well thanks for clearing up that you just want PvP to be a bully.. 

    Why am I not the least bit surprised? 

    OMG.  I was just joking, dude.  Calm down, I don't want to murder your Virtual Avatar.
    "If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."


    "Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."


    (Note:  If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,211
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    To coin a phrase "Don't tell me what to do"

    I wasn't telling you what to do here on this forum.  But if there's PVP in a game, I could certainly try to tell you what to do.  Before or after initiating combat.
    Well thanks for clearing up that you just want PvP to be a bully.. 

    Why am I not the least bit surprised? 

    OMG.  I was just joking, dude.  Calm down, I don't want to murder your Virtual Avatar.
    Umm humm sure.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 4,171
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    You would be correct. Most people never knew anything about previous online games before UO. 
    I don't know much about them even today. 
    Meridian 59, I think they had PvP, but what did they have for numbers? 

    "By June 1999, Meridian 59's retail sales in the United States had reached 14,359 units, according to PC Data. A writer for GameDaily called these numbers "miniscule", and remarked that it had "clearly fizzled on store shelves". However, the publication noted that 3DO had changed its business model to rely on online shopping and microtransactions, and had seen monetary success despite its poor sales in stores.[10] Next Generation columnist Christian Svensson commented that despite the game's monthly pricing being roundly derided by a panel consisting of the heads of seven leading online gaming services at the September 1996 Online Game Developer's Conference, who said any flat rate system was unsustainable and "naive", "Since that time, we have seen the official launch of many online gaming services, and most have learned what consumers and the press have been telling them all along: A fair flat rate is the only way services will get subscribers.""

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_59

    14,359 units sold, and UO and EQ took charge of the market at that point. 

    I don't recall the other game I had heard about, something like "Blade" I think. With something like 200 total accounts, sticks in my mind. A side scrolling MMORPG, from what I recall. 
    But I could be way off on that, and that's entirely hearsay. 


    Neverwinter in early 90s had fun PVP , even Ladders for it .. Also 115,00 players .. so yea

       There are other games with PVP at that time .. also .. And lets remember UO was in Beta for quite awhile with no NDA there was tons of info flooding the PC world about it at that time .. Thats why it drew so many at launch .. Because people heard about it/ watched it / read about it ..

      You act like 100,000 Hellen Kellers rushed out and purchased UO blindly .. fucking ridiuclous

      People knew and if anyone bought UO logged in looked at the box Read and agreed to the EULA , and then were surprised and shocked they got ganked outside Brit , they are a fucking idiot , simple as that and deserve exactly what they got ..

     Just the gaming Gods way of thinning the herd...
    Wait, so now you're admitting that the game was as bad as I said? 
    "and then were surprised and shocked they got ganked outside Brit , they are a fucking idiot" 

    Who'da guessed that you were full of --it? 
    (The answer is probably "just about everyone.") 

    Once upon a time....

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,226
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Being one of the very first games I have to wonder how many people even knew what PvP meant. or had any idea of the extent of where when how it could even occur.

    My first game was EQ. When I started I had never even heard of the terms PVE PVP. I remember running around Freeport doing what I thought was helping people kill things until someone challenge me to a duel for kill stealing.

    I would imagine the number of people that realized whar PVP meant or how it would actually impact game play was probably really small.

    Hmm ive been playing online since 83 thru Quantum Link on my C64 , there was PvP loooong before UO and in an MMORPG setting
    I didn't say there wasn't PVP long before UO. I'm questioning how many people knew what it meant or how would impact game play. I'm Surmising that since UO is considered one of the first MMORPGs that that number world be a very very very small number.
    There were some very active MUD's like Gemstone IV, on AOL, that had active populations in the 2K - 3K at peak, since Gemstone was launched through AOL, there was no direct subscription, as your AOL account gave you access to all their games, but there was obviously tracking of the people playing these games, and thus the funding of a visual version of them to finally get launched.

    These games existed way back in the 80's, and AFIK, all of them had PvP enabled, with the premise that PvP served as a "Role Play" tool, so, it was a prime place where if you shot off your mouth, you were going to get your teeth kicked in.

    I think when EQ made it so that they had PvE only servers that truly changed the landscape of the MMO world going forward, as before EQ, most (if not all) multi player games had PvP in them simply as an aspect of dealing with other players.

    I don't know how common my own journey is, but I played Doom with my buddy at his house on a LAN in 95-96. We played Dungeon Siege over dial up peer-to-peer later on. I never heard of nor used "PvP" back then.

    I started EQ in 2001 because three co-workers kept coming in on Mondays and raving about this online game they both played. Never heard of MMORPGs until then. All I heard was to NOT join a "PvP" server. That was when I learned about player vs player.

    Thia may or may not be common. Just remember not all players took the same journey and were as "wise" as you think they may have been :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


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