1- We could publish reports on each MMORPG's EULA, listing all the things we find objectionable in their EULA. EX: Blanket statements like "game play may change," restrictions on negative feedback, policies that do not allow refunds ect...
Funny you should mention this. I am beta-testing a game right now where they make that line much more blatant than just putting it in the EULA. Of course I'm under an NDA so I can't say anymore but... I find that sort of thing obnoxious. Luckily, I have no intention of playing the game once it is launched. But I still find it objectionable.
As to being part of an "SWG Rebellion" group -- I'm going to have to say count me out (and you can erase me from your roll call if you wish). When I signed I thought you were just asking for a list of people who intended to post here (at mmorpg.com) as vets but were no longer playing SWG, sort of a "say hi if you are on this forum now that they made a new one." I did not realize you were going to start a "Rebellion" site, nor asking for volunteers. So I'd like to withdraw my name.
There are two reasons for this. The most simple one is time, but it's not just that I wouldn't have time. The more important one is, I think, that while coming here to gripe at SOE on break times at work might be OK, I think that building your organization around basically spiting SWG/NGE/SOE, is not a good impetus for organizing a site and a group of site builders. It sort of reminds me of the old MUSH days when I used to see people start what I called "SpiteMUSHes." They couldn't have things their way on their regular MUSH (or MUD or MUX), so they'd DL a copy of one of the servers, such as PennMUSH, and start running their own. They seemed to think that by the power of pure spite and anger, and with no direction or goal of their own, they could build a successful MUSH. And it never worked for one reason -- spite is negative. If you put negative energy into a project it will fail.
If you want to build a gaming site, and hire experienced and intelligent gamers to contribute to it, I think that is an admirable goal and I applaud it. But the name of the site and the whole idea of the group being "rebels" smells of a SpiteSite to me. And I want no part of such an undertaking.
Originally posted by Leel The thing is - We are also a group that enjoys complexity in games, and appreciates open ended content. With the trend being away from this type of gaming, and towards the linear directed playstyle, I think that it opens up a niche that a gamesite can target. JMO
OK now you are talking a language I can respect. However, you need to change the domain name. "Rebellion" implies the goal is to rebel against SWG, NGE, SOE, etc. That's not a positive way to start a gaming site.
If you want to be "complex-MMOs-r-us.com" or something, you'd get more interest from people like me who have moved on from SWG and are doing other things (like playing Ryzom), and do not want to feel like we are stuck in the past railing against something that happened a year ago.
Just so you know though - I just want to set this up for you guys.
I am more than happy to take a back seat role in this endeavor.
I'm not thirsty for power, or attention. I definetly want something different than some of the other less mature groups that are out there. I just want a place where people are appreciated, respected, and where their ideas matter.
I know it's idealistic, but I think it's worth it to try.
I always said that the community is what made SWG different, and I'm counting on it.
I think this is a very important point to make. Leel is not suggesting an organization to whine and gripe about SWG like some of you might think, though such whining would not be forbidden I am sure. The very name, SWGRebellion.com, implies that it is an anti-SWG site, and that belly-aching and griping about SOE and the NGE are going to be major components of the site. If that's not the intention, then I submit that the domain name needs to be something else.
It is very important for this segment of the gaming community to make a unified statement to the MMORPG industry that the tripe being released now is unpalatable to a large number of us. We need to make sure that somebody out there is listening and may see that there is a niche market consisting of passionate, devoted gameplayers of our type that would become devoted subscribers of the right game, were it made. Again, I can totally get on board with this idea and (time permitting) might be willing to contribute. But I want no part of a SpiteSite designed to blast SOE day in and day out. That part of my gaming life is over, and I have long since moved on. Now, I do not object to using them as an example of what NOT to do here and there... but a fixation on hating SOE is just not a place I want to go to right now.
If we do not make our voice heard, it may be a decade or longer before anything suitable comes along. The industry seems convinced that the type of game we like to play is not profitable enough. We must succeed in convincing them that they can have a viable playerbase without making more WoW clones. I for one want to have something to spend my spare time on before I am in a rocking chair. Agreed. But again, IMO, you will convince no one if you start out as an SWG Rebellion. It will just sound like a bunch of sore losers whining at the big business guys.
I agree that this group should be about more than the NGE or SWG. Ultimately though, the group will decide what they are about.
Another thing - not all members have to volunteer, or belong to a committee. If you would like to volunteer for something you can, or not. It's about promoting ideas, not getting free labor.
Will try and come up with a new Domain. Will check with you guys before i register it.
Originally posted by Rekrul Even worse, game development studios can no longer survive in this world. They simply lack the power to bring even their own products to market. Gaming industry is a publishing business. This is the only way to get things done.
-This is a sad bit of truth
Leel you handled Rekrul’s criticism very well. Perhaps you’re considering a career in politics?
Rekrul may have been curt initially but I’d have to say he seems to have a strong grasp of the game industry as far as I can tell. He’s written a lot of informative and thoughtful posts here, so don’t discount him too quickly. Rather than write the guy off because he was a meanie I think you all would be better off trying to pick his brain for useful tidbits.
This is speculation on my part but I’d guess he was just trying to inject a dose of reality into an all too familiar story. This really applies to more than just games but here goes: When people lose a game they’re passionate about, there’s a void that wants to be filled. By taking on some project you’re venting your passions for the lost game in some positive outlet. You’re “doing something.” I’d bet the majority of us grieves like this for a while then eventually finds some new game to immerse ourselves in (or rediscovers we have a family before the wife files for divorce.)
I’ve met talented and driven people that took on big projects such as game emulators or start-up game projects (I’d call some of them businesses, but I don’t think they really made it that far and I don’t want a tongue-lashing by Rekrul myself.) Most of them eventually died out while a couple are still treading water.
I don’t wish to discourage any of you by saying this. After all, even if whatever project you undertook failed, you would at least learn a good deal from it. It could possibly lead to other opportunities too. You’d probably make a few friends along the way as well.
PS. GamersUnion.com is already registered. It’s for sale but I wouldn’t suggest trying it as I picked up a virus there. I liked the idea of going with what you already have and seeing where it goes from there.
I'm sorry that my aproach came out too harsh. After re-reading my own posts, I came bombing down on you for no apparent reason, doubly so due to several unfortunate wordings.
I have no problem with your intentions. But when starting from the original post, combined with the ROLL CALL thread, I got the impression that you want to create an international business ran by ex-SWG vets who's purpose would be to hate SOE and use it's own devices to discredit it in the media.
This was my interpretation, hence my responses weren't really serious or tactful.
As for everything else, my only opinion on this will be, that high goals are noble. Unfortunately, reality, as soon as the word business comes into play, becomes quickly much different.
Originally posted by Chessack Originally posted by jrscott
I think this is a very important point to make. Leel is not suggesting an organization to whine and gripe about SWG like some of you might think, though such whining would not be forbidden I am sure. The very name, SWGRebellion.com, implies that it is an anti-SWG site, and that belly-aching and griping about SOE and the NGE are going to be major components of the site. If that's not the intention, then I submit that the domain name needs to be something else.
It is very important for this segment of the gaming community to make a unified statement to the MMORPG industry that the tripe being released now is unpalatable to a large number of us. We need to make sure that somebody out there is listening and may see that there is a niche market consisting of passionate, devoted gameplayers of our type that would become devoted subscribers of the right game, were it made. Again, I can totally get on board with this idea and (time permitting) might be willing to contribute. But I want no part of a SpiteSite designed to blast SOE day in and day out. That part of my gaming life is over, and I have long since moved on. Now, I do not object to using them as an example of what NOT to do here and there... but a fixation on hating SOE is just not a place I want to go to right now.
If we do not make our voice heard, it may be a decade or longer before anything suitable comes along. The industry seems convinced that the type of game we like to play is not profitable enough. We must succeed in convincing them that they can have a viable playerbase without making more WoW clones. I for one want to have something to spend my spare time on before I am in a rocking chair. Agreed. But again, IMO, you will convince no one if you start out as an SWG Rebellion. It will just sound like a bunch of sore losers whining at the big business guys.
C
Heh heh. I had not gotten to that point and I would agree with your analysis. I see that Leel has taken heed on your sage advice.
And to be honest, when I typed my reply to his initial post, I like most others here had no idea what Leel had in mind. I've talked to Leel regarding other things in PMs and trust his judgement as a result. So while I was somewhat shocked at what this became, I also know where Leel's heart is and trust him.
While upset at SOE like most of us, I think the SWG Rebellion thing was more a rebellion against the mindset and actions of SOE and those companies like them. I just figured after some of the earlier contentious encounters he had in this thread, I did not want to add to it. But, I'm glad you mentioned your reservations to him in a polite manner. A more appropriate name is probably in order.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
I'm sorry that my aproach came out too harsh. After re-reading my own posts, I came bombing down on you for no apparent reason, doubly so due to several unfortunate wordings.
As for everything else, my only opinion on this will be, that high goals are noble. Unfortunately, reality, as soon as the word business comes into play, becomes quickly much different.
While I can't speak for Leel, I do know that I snapped back at you on his behalf regarding tact and diplomacy and was rather sarcastic in the process. Seeing as you have apologized to Leel for being harsh (you were), I hope you accept my apology for the sarcastic nature of my reply. I too might have shown a little more tact and PM'd you. I consider most people on this board a friend as we have much in common. I saw your post as an attack and went to his defense. I'd do the same for you.
As for your second paragraph...sometimes dreamers find a way, sometimes they are squashed like bugs. It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
Originally posted by Leel Another thing - the only thing I meant by future projects would have to make their own money, and not require money from the members is to present defined and concrete boundaries, that the group would have to consider when taking on future projects.
I like the general approach your taking, and its refreshing to see someone willing to actually do something. There is no reason you should have to have everything all fleshed out before you throw an idea out there. Ignore the people who's only contribution is rebuke. I say go on with your bad self hun....
I will definitely be there with bells on, so to speak.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
Originally posted by Leel Originally posted by PyscoJuggalo Originally posted by Ivannatinkle A gaming website consisting of all SOE/NGE haters. Good luck with anyone finding any reviews or articles on your site to be "unbiased".
Well maybe we should be a consumer advocacy group?
To me the main problem with the MMORPG industry (and my experience in SWG was) is that it is essetially a service oriented industry and they have the worst costumer service I have ever seen.
1- We could publish reports on each MMORPG's EULA, listing all the things we find objectionable in their EULA. EX: Blanket statements like "game play may change," restrictions on negative feedback, policies that do not allow refunds ect...
2- Monitor the customer service in each game first hand.
3- We could take up the causes of consumers who were treated unfairly by a game.
BTW- Answer this question: How did we become "SOE haters?"
See - that is exactly what I'm talking about. That's a good idea, and could be addressed by one commitee. Something like that would definetly send ripples through the industry. I think we should get these ideas into an environment where something can actually be done with them. Instead of just constantly saying man i wish things would change, we can try to do something about it.
We know we worked very hard IG for far less reward.
I like this idea as well, and what better place to start defending those screwed over by an mmo than with SWG. Might want to go after DnL next, but one thing at a time LOL.... I really think this is the way to go, great idea...
As far as making enough money to support itself, any site that draws enough hits can get some ad dollars...
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
I'm beginning to like this idea a lot more all the time. For too long, game companies have autocratically told us gamers how things are going to be. Well, we can at least make them more accountable for their own actions and statements. Right now, companies like SOE just run roughshod over their playerbase because they KNOW they can.
How did the nobles become noble? They took it at the tip of a sword. It's time to reclaim some of that stolen nobility.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
I'm sorry that my aproach came out too harsh. After re-reading my own posts, I came bombing down on you for no apparent reason, doubly so due to several unfortunate wordings.
I have no problem with your intentions. But when starting from the original post, combined with the ROLL CALL thread, I got the impression that you want to create an international business ran by ex-SWG vets who's purpose would be to hate SOE and use it's own devices to discredit it in the media.
This was my interpretation, hence my responses weren't really serious or tactful.
As for everything else, my only opinion on this will be, that high goals are noble. Unfortunately, reality, as soon as the word business comes into play, becomes quickly much different.
In honesty, I didn't do a very good job of explaining things. I don't know if this will work or not but I want to give it a shot. I know that we are quickly getting to the point where bashing SOE and the NGE are becoming passé, but i do think that our experience can be worth something.
If real life were an MMO, I would be demanding a refund.
RLMMO is fine as a working name I think.
In terms of "rebellion," in a way it seems like some people (including myself) are in a mindset of wishing to rebel against the current dev M.O.s of these games - making simplistic, click-click-click-get_reward, type games, and we are tired of those. So keeping the idea (ultimately) of some sort of a rebellion against that, I'm down with. Just not a rebellion against SOE. SOE is a symptom of a larger problem.
Ultimately however we may have to face the fact that most gamers like these simplistic games, because most gamers are just interested in "burning off some steam" for an hour an evening. Involved, complex games that require major thought, are enjoyable to a few of us (like those on this forum, for instance), but are never going to be a mainstay of the industry.
I've been thinking for a long while now, that people like us who are interested in more complete and mentally challenging (rather than instant-gratification) games, may have to basically build our own, or look to the open source community to provide them, much as the MUD/MUSH community provided these things in an open-source way in the 90s.
Just a few ideas, since I do see some promise if things are done right:
Have different sections catering to different aspects of the mmo world, i.e. a pvp section, a roleplay section, a casual gamer section, and a section for those who want more involved break- the-cycle games such as AO,SWG when it started, Ryzom and others that are more challenging than just "kill 10 rats". Games that require thought and skill.
Gather peoples wants and needs for each of these sections. What are the ideal settings for each of these types based on the players who play them? How much demand is really out there for each type? Perhaps allowing your site to be a "marketing benchmark" so that developers can see at a glance what games are really wanted and what game types are already flooding the market. Show them with numbers that there really is a desire for games based on something other than the "WoW schematic".
As far as advocacy, maybe find some attorneys who would be willing to write short articles on things such as the legality of NDAs/EULAs, refunds for games not delivering as promised or scamming, and other subjects.
Also, as far as the SWG rebel thing goes, this idea might not have come off bad at the beginning if it was opened up to the entire mmorpg.com site, instead of only to the SWG vets. Because whether you intend it or not, you are excluding a much larger representation of the mmorpg genre by doing so. In fact, you are excluding the majority of people who could make this a success for you: the gamers. Sure, you guys can get started and maybe have a little progress, but 120 SWG vets have alot less "word of mouth" marketing power than an entire mmorpg site. I also fear that by basing your core membership on unhappy SWG vets that you are going to have just what Chessack and others don't want to see: a main focus of bashing SWG/SOE.
I also fear that by basing your core membership on unhappy SWG vets that you are going to have just what Chessack and others don't want to see: a main focus of bashing SWG/SOE.
Just my $.02
I don't necessarilly want to start telling people what they should talk about. I think that it can be handled more appropriately by setting up the boards in a way that encourages different types of conversation in designated areas. I think that it would be somewhat silly to ignore the common thread that brought all these posters together in the first place.
I enjoyed your post though and encourage people to voice their concerns. I think that I've shown in this thread that nothing is set in stone. It's up to you guys.
We will not have an initiation to prove your hate towards SOE, so it does allow for the more moderates of the group.
Rekrul may have been curt initially but I’d have to say he seems to have a strong grasp of the game industry as far as I can tell. He’s written a lot of informative and thoughtful posts here, so don’t discount him too quickly. Rather than write the guy off because he was a meanie I think you all would be better off trying to pick his brain for useful tidbits.
I think that's a great idea honestly. Rekrul - any help you could provide would be appreciated. I think people get in trouble by only surrounding themselves with others that think exactly like them.
Rarely does a thread make me stop and read every reply, but this one did.
I see the potential of what you are doing here. You are basically talking to a group of people you have come to know from a forum who have had similar experiences, taking the diversity offered by the many different people and backgrounds and said similar experience and asking for ideas of what we can pull together and do.
It's almost brilliant in its simplicity.
You have piqued my interest and I can't wait to see where this goes.. Kudos to the OP!
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Comments
As to being part of an "SWG Rebellion" group -- I'm going to have to say count me out (and you can erase me from your roll call if you wish). When I signed I thought you were just asking for a list of people who intended to post here (at mmorpg.com) as vets but were no longer playing SWG, sort of a "say hi if you are on this forum now that they made a new one." I did not realize you were going to start a "Rebellion" site, nor asking for volunteers. So I'd like to withdraw my name.
There are two reasons for this. The most simple one is time, but it's not just that I wouldn't have time. The more important one is, I think, that while coming here to gripe at SOE on break times at work might be OK, I think that building your organization around basically spiting SWG/NGE/SOE, is not a good impetus for organizing a site and a group of site builders. It sort of reminds me of the old MUSH days when I used to see people start what I called "SpiteMUSHes." They couldn't have things their way on their regular MUSH (or MUD or MUX), so they'd DL a copy of one of the servers, such as PennMUSH, and start running their own. They seemed to think that by the power of pure spite and anger, and with no direction or goal of their own, they could build a successful MUSH. And it never worked for one reason -- spite is negative. If you put negative energy into a project it will fail.
If you want to build a gaming site, and hire experienced and intelligent gamers to contribute to it, I think that is an admirable goal and I applaud it. But the name of the site and the whole idea of the group being "rebels" smells of a SpiteSite to me. And I want no part of such an undertaking.
C
If you want to be "complex-MMOs-r-us.com" or something, you'd get more interest from people like me who have moved on from SWG and are doing other things (like playing Ryzom), and do not want to feel like we are stuck in the past railing against something that happened a year ago.
C
Thanks LilT
Just so you know though - I just want to set this up for you guys.
I am more than happy to take a back seat role in this endeavor.
I'm not thirsty for power, or attention. I definetly want something different than some of the other less mature groups that are out there. I just want a place where people are appreciated, respected, and where their ideas matter.
I know it's idealistic, but I think it's worth it to try.
I always said that the community is what made SWG different, and I'm counting on it.
I've already registered SWGRebellion, but i would not mind changing it.
Do you have any suggestions?
Exactly what, will depend on what you intend it to be all about.
C
I agree that this group should be about more than the NGE or SWG. Ultimately though, the group will decide what they are about.
Another thing - not all members have to volunteer, or belong to a committee. If you would like to volunteer for something you can, or not. It's about promoting ideas, not getting free labor.
Will try and come up with a new Domain. Will check with you guys before i register it.
-This is a sad bit of truth
Leel you handled Rekrul’s criticism very well. Perhaps you’re considering a career in politics?
Rekrul may have been curt initially but I’d have to say he seems to have a strong grasp of the game industry as far as I can tell. He’s written a lot of informative and thoughtful posts here, so don’t discount him too quickly. Rather than write the guy off because he was a meanie I think you all would be better off trying to pick his brain for useful tidbits.
This is speculation on my part but I’d guess he was just trying to inject a dose of reality into an all too familiar story. This really applies to more than just games but here goes: When people lose a game they’re passionate about, there’s a void that wants to be filled. By taking on some project you’re venting your passions for the lost game in some positive outlet. You’re “doing something.” I’d bet the majority of us grieves like this for a while then eventually finds some new game to immerse ourselves in (or rediscovers we have a family before the wife files for divorce.
)
I’ve met talented and driven people that took on big projects such as game emulators or start-up game projects (I’d call some of them businesses, but I don’t think they really made it that far and I don’t want a tongue-lashing by Rekrul myself.
) Most of them eventually died out while a couple are still treading water.
I don’t wish to discourage any of you by saying this. After all, even if whatever project you undertook failed, you would at least learn a good deal from it. It could possibly lead to other opportunities too. You’d probably make a few friends along the way as well.
PS. GamersUnion.com is already registered. It’s for sale but I wouldn’t suggest trying it as I picked up a virus there. I liked the idea of going with what you already have and seeing where it goes from there.
EnB Exiles
GuardiansOfOrion.com
I'm sorry that my aproach came out too harsh. After re-reading my own posts, I came bombing down on you for no apparent reason, doubly so due to several unfortunate wordings.
I have no problem with your intentions. But when starting from the original post, combined with the ROLL CALL thread, I got the impression that you want to create an international business ran by ex-SWG vets who's purpose would be to hate SOE and use it's own devices to discredit it in the media.
This was my interpretation, hence my responses weren't really serious or tactful.
As for everything else, my only opinion on this will be, that high goals are noble. Unfortunately, reality, as soon as the word business comes into play, becomes quickly much different.
Heh heh. I had not gotten to that point and I would agree with your analysis. I see that Leel has taken heed on your sage advice.
And to be honest, when I typed my reply to his initial post, I like most others here had no idea what Leel had in mind. I've talked to Leel regarding other things in PMs and trust his judgement as a result. So while I was somewhat shocked at what this became, I also know where Leel's heart is and trust him.
While upset at SOE like most of us, I think the SWG Rebellion thing was more a rebellion against the mindset and actions of SOE and those companies like them. I just figured after some of the earlier contentious encounters he had in this thread, I did not want to add to it. But, I'm glad you mentioned your reservations to him in a polite manner. A more appropriate name is probably in order.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
While I can't speak for Leel, I do know that I snapped back at you on his behalf regarding tact and diplomacy and was rather sarcastic in the process. Seeing as you have apologized to Leel for being harsh (you were), I hope you accept my apology for the sarcastic nature of my reply. I too might have shown a little more tact and PM'd you.
I consider most people on this board a friend as we have much in common. I saw your post as an attack and went to his defense. I'd do the same for you.
As for your second paragraph...sometimes dreamers find a way, sometimes they are squashed like bugs. It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
I like the general approach your taking, and its refreshing to see someone willing to actually do something. There is no reason you should have to have everything all fleshed out before you throw an idea out there. Ignore the people who's only contribution is rebuke. I say go on with your bad self hun....
I will definitely be there with bells on, so to speak.
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
To me the main problem with the MMORPG industry (and my experience in SWG was) is that it is essetially a service oriented industry and they have the worst costumer service I have ever seen.
1- We could publish reports on each MMORPG's EULA, listing all the things we find objectionable in their EULA. EX: Blanket statements like "game play may change," restrictions on negative feedback, policies that do not allow refunds ect...
2- Monitor the customer service in each game first hand.
3- We could take up the causes of consumers who were treated unfairly by a game.
BTW- Answer this question: How did we become "SOE haters?"
See - that is exactly what I'm talking about. That's a good idea, and could be addressed by one commitee. Something like that would definetly send ripples through the industry. I think we should get these ideas into an environment where something can actually be done with them. Instead of just constantly saying man i wish things would change, we can try to do something about it.
We know we worked very hard IG for far less reward.
I like this idea as well, and what better place to start defending those screwed over by an mmo than with SWG. Might want to go after DnL next, but one thing at a time LOL.... I really think this is the way to go, great idea...
As far as making enough money to support itself, any site that draws enough hits can get some ad dollars...
"The man who exchanges Liberty for Iconic classes is a fool deserving of neither." - Me and Ben Franklin
I'm beginning to like this idea a lot more all the time. For too long, game companies have autocratically told us gamers how things are going to be. Well, we can at least make them more accountable for their own actions and statements. Right now, companies like SOE just run roughshod over their playerbase because they KNOW they can.
How did the nobles become noble? They took it at the tip of a sword. It's time to reclaim some of that stolen nobility.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
In honesty, I didn't do a very good job of explaining things. I don't know if this will work or not but I want to give it a shot. I know that we are quickly getting to the point where bashing SOE and the NGE are becoming passé, but i do think that our experience can be worth something.
Will it work? We will see.
OK Registered - RLMMO.com
"Real Life" MMO
Working site for the group. Not a public site.
If you guys don't care for it - I will change it again.
If real life were an MMO, I would be demanding a refund.
RLMMO is fine as a working name I think.
In terms of "rebellion," in a way it seems like some people (including myself) are in a mindset of wishing to rebel against the current dev M.O.s of these games - making simplistic, click-click-click-get_reward, type games, and we are tired of those. So keeping the idea (ultimately) of some sort of a rebellion against that, I'm down with. Just not a rebellion against SOE. SOE is a symptom of a larger problem.
Ultimately however we may have to face the fact that most gamers like these simplistic games, because most gamers are just interested in "burning off some steam" for an hour an evening. Involved, complex games that require major thought, are enjoyable to a few of us (like those on this forum, for instance), but are never going to be a mainstay of the industry.
I've been thinking for a long while now, that people like us who are interested in more complete and mentally challenging (rather than instant-gratification) games, may have to basically build our own, or look to the open source community to provide them, much as the MUD/MUSH community provided these things in an open-source way in the 90s.
C
Have different sections catering to different aspects of the mmo world, i.e. a pvp section, a roleplay section, a casual gamer section, and a section for those who want more involved break- the-cycle games such as AO,SWG when it started, Ryzom and others that are more challenging than just "kill 10 rats". Games that require thought and skill.
Gather peoples wants and needs for each of these sections. What are the ideal settings for each of these types based on the players who play them? How much demand is really out there for each type? Perhaps allowing your site to be a "marketing benchmark" so that developers can see at a glance what games are really wanted and what game types are already flooding the market. Show them with numbers that there really is a desire for games based on something other than the "WoW schematic".
As far as advocacy, maybe find some attorneys who would be willing to write short articles on things such as the legality of NDAs/EULAs, refunds for games not delivering as promised or scamming, and other subjects.
Also, as far as the SWG rebel thing goes, this idea might not have come off bad at the beginning if it was opened up to the entire mmorpg.com site, instead of only to the SWG vets. Because whether you intend it or not, you are excluding a much larger representation of the mmorpg genre by doing so. In fact, you are excluding the majority of people who could make this a success for you: the gamers. Sure, you guys can get started and maybe have a little progress, but 120 SWG vets have alot less "word of mouth" marketing power than an entire mmorpg site. I also fear that by basing your core membership on unhappy SWG vets that you are going to have just what Chessack and others don't want to see: a main focus of bashing SWG/SOE.
Just my $.02
I don't necessarilly want to start telling people what they should talk about. I think that it can be handled more appropriately by setting up the boards in a way that encourages different types of conversation in designated areas. I think that it would be somewhat silly to ignore the common thread that brought all these posters together in the first place.
I enjoyed your post though and encourage people to voice their concerns. I think that I've shown in this thread that nothing is set in stone. It's up to you guys.
We will not have an initiation to prove your hate towards SOE, so it does allow for the more moderates of the group.
I think that's a great idea honestly. Rekrul - any help you could provide would be appreciated. I think people get in trouble by only surrounding themselves with others that think exactly like them.
Like always - debate should be encouraged.
Rarely does a thread make me stop and read every reply, but this one did.
I see the potential of what you are doing here. You are basically talking to a group of people you have come to know from a forum who have had similar experiences, taking the diversity offered by the many different people and backgrounds and said similar experience and asking for ideas of what we can pull together and do.
It's almost brilliant in its simplicity.
You have piqued my interest and I can't wait to see where this goes.. Kudos to the OP!
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me