lol how many times you gonna sign your own petition? now lets get the login names and passwords of dead people and get em to vote like they do in the government!
Originally posted by NastyNitro lol how many times you gonna sign your own petition? now lets get the login names and passwords of dead people and get em to vote like they do in the government!
Your post is noted and we thank you again for bringing this thread to our attention.
Remember there will be those who will show you a version that only a employee is allowed to show,This post alone has caught their attention and they are sending damage control in ( In other threads ) to weaken the truth here. They will try and soon ( well hopefully ,just waiting for a reply from so and so ) they will collapse.
I had sent a letter in to Ncsoft asking about Gameguard and will it ever be replaced or updated ...etc. Anyways I'll post the reply here when it comes in.
Well first I think they should remove it, becaue it eats resources which caused lag which isn't needed...but anyway.
GameGuard isn't technically designed to stop bots. It is designed to stop keyloggers, etc. The only way it will stop a bot program is if it has a keylogger in it, or the bot used "key logger proticol" which a very few actually did. Because we all know that the 2 biggest bots out there emulate an artificial client response to bypass gameguard.
Originally posted by Jukan Just a quick thing about game guard...
Well first I think they should remove it, becaue it eats resources which caused lag which isn't needed...but anyway.
GameGuard isn't technically designed to stop bots. It is designed to stop keyloggers, etc. The only way it will stop a bot program is if it has a keylogger in it, or the bot used "key logger proticol" which a very few actually did. Because we all know that the 2 biggest bots out there emulate an artificial client response to bypass gameguard.
Ty Jukan ....but would you have a link or just something from Ncsoft stating what you just said ?
Well I don't have it from NCsofts mouth, but we don't belive what they say anyway right? But what I do have is the companies website where you can actually get game guard! The company is known as nProtect.
As you can see they say thus: "However, defined rules in game system are being violated by those who have ill intention of using personal account by hacking and game hack based-foul play." As you can see, they make mention to personal account hacking = keyloggers etc. And they make reference to game client hacking, but neither of the two popular bot programs hack. If you research more about the popular bot programs you will find that all it is, is an emulated client that has the ability to run scripts instead of the need for human interface. It is actually quite amazing. And I am also sure many of you know that The Unreal Engine is VERY easy to modify, and that is why bots are incredibally hard to detect threw just connection, and that is is so easy for bot companies to change the bot program sooo fast so that is an endless struggle against NCsoft and bot developers, and since the virtual currency business a multi-million dollar company relies on these programs, they can put more resources into it than lets say the NCNA L2 team.
Anyway, I don't think the average user knows enough about what they are talking about, and enough about bot programs and programs used by NCsoft, including the game engine itself. But I would definately not expect legit players to understand the workings of a bot program, because they don't have the full resources to find all that information. So they just complain, but rightfully so. Your service should be up to your expectations. Don't ask how I know all the stuff I do, because I won't tell you!
Also another incoveinent truth is that NCsoft actually can use different methods to detect bots much much more better! To a point that real players would be thinking twice, maybe even 8 times before trying a bot program. And farmers would have to be much more descreat and careful, No AFK farmers in catacombs and good hunting areas. NCsoft will only ban obvious bots that had many petitions by different account users, because all they want to do is not tarnish their name that bad, but at the same time want the thousands in subscription costs that farmers give them.
Thats all common knowledge or just a quick glance reading from the main site. You know it just occured to me that will all the bots, I never had a problem with them. What the hell am I complaining about ??? Lol
And from NCsofts mouth, who the frick would belive that! I mean for sakes, that is the whole problem right here in this forums. People think NCsoft equals 2 faced, hypicritical, lying sons of ol' malhums...so eh...whatever...
This whole topic is a waste of my time, lol.
Just Quit! I mean shit... It is just a damn game... And my friends and clan members are still playing, so it dosn't really matter when someone else quits. The more ppl the quit the more powerful I will become! THATS RIGHT, DO IT! QUIT! L2 is a shitty ass game! Don't play it! Go AWAY! Stay away from it! IT IS MINE, ALL MINE I SAY!!! MWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
If you research more about the popular bot programs you will find that all it is, is an emulated client that has the ability to run scripts instead of the need for human interface.
Averagely, that's only half true. And that scripting "language" is a very poor attempt at writing one.
It is actually quite amazing.
Not really.
And I am also sure many of you know that The Unreal Engine is VERY easy to modify, and that is why bots are incredibally hard to detect threw just connection
Flexibility of unreal engines have absolutely nothing to do with that. Protocol used by L2 change very rarely, and in a very minimal way. It's also quite simple, and has nothing to do with original U2's net code.
and that is is so easy for bot companies to change the bot program sooo fast so that is an endless struggle against NCsoft and bot developers
Detection and banning of any possible bot would be quite trival, but would require actual devs to participate, instead of farting in their chairs. You can ask Himred, or any L2J dev, if you don't believe me.
and since the virtual currency business a multi-million dollar company relies on these programs, they can put more resources into it than lets say the NCNA L2 team.
Rrright... that falls into conspiracy theory.
At the moment NC puts around 0 efforts [at least efforts into something even minimally logical]. They do put a lot of efforts into forum cleaning though.
DStuff / Soltys
ps. If you like L2 in its current state - fine, but don't get yourself that easily BSed regarding NC or bots.
The problem with L2 is that the game mechanics make botting extremely profitable. So profitable that a huge % of the population is willing to risk being permanently banned by doing so.
Look at the Prophet class and tell me it wasn't specifically designed to be 2 boxed. You buff your party, you sit afk for 15-20 minutes, you buff them again. Repeat. Perfect i mean perfect class to bot. Prophets are the standard de facto bot class. You see prophet bots everywhere because of it.
Swordsingers and Bladedancers are pretty much the same except -1- they have to buff every 2 minutes not every 20 minutes and -2- they are somewhat useful for additional damage. This creates the illusion that they're fun to play when really they're just a couple more bot classes.
Healers are no different. Elven Elders, Bishops, Shilen Elders. Shilen Elders are one of the most botted classes because of Empower. Sometimes you're even better off botting healers than having an actual person play them because of the inhuman healing response time that only a bot program can provide. You wouldn't want to rely on them during pvp, but for the mindless grind they are perfect.
Then you have the 2 Orc mages, but at least they aren't 100% confined to a buff/heal role.
Now take all these classes that are perfect for botting and combine with the fact that you can't do anything without them in the first place. Going out to level? Better have a support class with you unless you feel spending all day regenerating your HP/MP. You're better off sitting in town for x hours as you wait for your support class friend to log on than to go out and risk death leveling by yourself. Don't feel like waiting? L2Walker to the rescue.
If NCSoft wants to stop the bot problem they need to re configure the classes. Buffs should be useful but not necessary. Waiting for a support class to log on for your party shouldn't be compulsory. Buffers and healers should have something other than buffing and healing to spend their MP on. Give them more damage output or something.
From my understanding In game bots just attach themselves to the .exe of the client. Thus modifying it making it possible to run scripts. When GameGuard checks to see if it is the real client, it sends a emulated response saying that it is. Out of game bots, are pretty much just a utility giving you all the features that can connect to the server without the client, but still send an emulated signal. I hear though that these out of game bot programs are more detectable than the in game ones, because when you chat etc. It supposdily is detectable that you are not chatting from the L2 client.
L2J servers can easily stop bots. Bots are designed for official servers because that is where the money is. If a player wants to use a bot on L2J they will have to figure out a lot of different things before they can connect undetectable. L2J servers are quite a bit different (most of the time) the official. Half the reason private servers don't have bot problems is because walker dosn't care about them. I am sure if there was profit to be made on priv servers, they would have the same or more problems as official.
The prophet class dosn't have to sit on it's ass for 20 min. And BDs are incredibally useful with hex and can boost their strength all the way to cap, so they do hella alot of damage. The SwS can be fun, if you equip it with a Dragon Slayer and like that kind of play style.
Orc mages are retarded on walker. For one, they are actually very powerful, and good in pvp. You can put one on walker for buffs, but that is just a waste.
BTW buffs aren't necessary. You can hunt without one. But your exp/hour will be really bad, and no one wants to grind any slower in L2.
The game would be fixed if they added more dynamic content that a simple script could not execute. Content that is worth playing, and keeps the player engaged. Content that isn't painful. Content that is fun! Content that you would have to be insane to miss by means of botting.
L2 in my opinion is such a good game that is not as good as it could be. I mean with the best graphics and smooth game play, good pvp, nothing that is obviously broken, this game should destroy the other games, but it doesn't.
That's a shame.
The problem with botting isn't a technical one in my opinion, it's NCsoft saying, i want money and i want to save face and maximize both because it maximizes profits. End of story. They ban bots to save face but allow the vast majority for the $$$. We can't blame them, it's a capitalistic world and this is what they do.
If you're an investor in NCsoft you'd pull your money if you knew they weren't maximizing profits. Business has no morals, as long as you stay legal, they will do whatever they can to maximize profits no matter how much of a dick thing it is.
I play this stupid game because it's fun, i complain about this game because it's not as fun as it could be and i hate companies that lie and bullshit. I'd never complain if NCsoft said, "we don't do shit against bots because we want to make money, feel free to quit cuz we're bullshit, we still made one hell of a game though and you know it's fun, since we only care about money, sorry for the inconvenience of bots. Play our games again. thanks. You know we make good games."
I'm not very technical but i thought a bot program just emulated teh clicks of a real human user to a point where it is undetectable? Anyway, i love this game but i'd be so happy if they went bankrupt. I'd send them a letter actually rubbing it in their face despte the fact i lost everything in the game.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Good post Cryomatirx! I agree with that. This game is fun! End of story! Yes it has flaws, and it could be so much better, but for my preferences this is better than WoW, and 98% of the other MMOs out there. Thats why I play it.
Yes the bot program does emulate human clicks, through means known as scripts or macros...whichever way you wish to call it.
Eveyone knows what walker is...so let me break it down. There are 2 times of walker, one that connects to the executable file of the L2 client and one that is its own client so to speak, also known as out of game walker. The in game walker (the one that connects to the .exe) lets you play the game just like you normally would, except that you can see MOB levels and HP and MP, along with player health and a few stats such as equipment, and also pretty much anything you wanna know about players you are partied with, including their lvl, but u have to be partied. You also get the feature to auto combat, which is what you were talking about (emulation of human clicks). This is 99% undetectable, except for the bot activity it actually does when you run the scrip/macro/human emulated clicks...whatever. Then you can do a series of tests to check to see if they are actually running a bot, but again if there is someone watching their "bots" every time someone pms them, or whatever...even comes into their area it can set off an alarm notifying them, and even disable the macro/script (without logging out).
Out of game Walker does all the features of in game walker, except you don't load the client. It is it's own client. You don't see graphics, and the normal things you see in game. This is what lots of people use to run a second box, since it dosn't take any resources. You could technically run about 200 of these on a PC that couldn't even run one client of L2. Again it has all the safety features built in, but won't have as confortable of an interface as the in game walker...since it is just a bunch of parameters...harder to bypass GM tests you could say. Also since this is a whole new client than the in game one, it is slightly easier to detect.
GMs usually won't ban bots, unless they are AFK (away from keyboard). But if you can respond and deal with a GM or whatever when the time comes, most likely you won't be banned...
It is tough to be able to ban someone without a doubt, esspecially if they are monitoring their accounts. And it seems about 90% of farmer accounts are always monitored, so in turn barely or never banned.
What Jukan is talking about sounds a lot like the bot problems Guild Wars has had in the past (and likely still has). The difference here being that A.Net cleans house every now and then and mass bans them.
While I personally havn't played L2, I gather from this topic that bots have become a SERIOUS problem in this game. Dosn't make me very eager to try it out, even with all the free codes I get from GW purchases.
And don't let anyone fool you. Bots always hurt the game on the whole, and it doesn't matter what game it is. Suddenly, the in game currency isn't worth what it's supposed to be worth because Joe Shmoe purchassed an unlimited supply off of e-bay. Now those items you worked so hard for and the time you spent getting them isn't worth as much. Or, when you go to buy an item you can't get the money to buy it because Joe Shmoe just pays whatever anyone asks him (because he has unlimited money) which makes the same item way overpriced for you. And I honestly don't buy the "you're paying for someone else's time" because you're paying for the game and then paying someone to play it for you. That's self defeating if I've ever heard it. Oh, and let's not forget about the bot farmers that kill every monster in range so you can't ever get a kill yourself (which is why I think all games should be fully instanced like GW, but that's just me). Or how about those trade bots that spam you with whispers or trade requests? Those are always fun, right?
Honestly, if the game is that overrun with botters and the devs don't want to do anything about it (and in fact do quite a lot to defend it) then it's time to cancel the subscription.
There are 2 faces of L2. The game is alot of fun and is challenging, it has a social environment unmatched in most MMO's higher up and has a great, well made world. However there are many bots. The economy is a bit overinflated but to be honest, you don't need to buy anything from players for a very long time (C grade or level 40, even then, you don't necessarily have to) if you set yourself up for it. So...the problem doesn't really show itself until after that point. Now, the big question is, will you stick with the game past 40 anyway? Its a tough grind for some. The main problem is this
The L2 economy is 100% player driven. Everything ingame has value. Nothing is useless. Nothing is wasted. It designed to damn good and its to easy to just take advantage of.
The fact of the matter is there is no getting away from farmers, IMHO the game worse then L2 is easily WoW. I found them within a week of DAoC and FFXI has similar problems, so what can you do? Stop playing MMO's?
BTW, I got a nice set of Brig gators off a bot last night.
You make an excelent point, Torak. And, to be honest, it's still hard for me to understand exactly how badly botters can mess things up since all I'm really used to is GW, where you can get high level maxed equipment fairly easily or just plain for free (making a PvP Only character in GW nets you free equipment based on what you've found or unlocked in the game. Free PvP equipment forever). I still say that botters will always and forever hurt the game economy for the reasons I stated above, and it is pretty shameful if the company goes out of their way to allow it to happen.
2 more bite the dust a few minutes ago! To bad no drop today. Oh well, plenty more where they came from.
Whats worse in GW is that you can make a level cap character and there is still power leveling and gold buying. Its the PLAYERS who are insane!
I think WoW was the first game I actually got ingame mail with ads on it. In FFXI I got flooded with gold buying email on their email system that comes with the game. In fact, I got so much, it was to much of a pain to delete it, so I quit the game. Now WoW and FFXI are 2 great examples of economies that are super hyper inflated.
Who knows how much of that is due to currency buying. What makes it even more amazing is all you need to do in WoW to make money is basically nothing but play. A monkey can make tons of cash in WoW, and its the biggest gold buying game around.
Its really hard to say how much damage currency buyers do to the game economy. (notice I said BUYERS, the farmers don't do anything but collect it, its the buyer who does the damage by flooding the economy with the money, if players didn't buy, farmers wouldn't farm) Its also hard to say in a game like L2 because of the effect farmers have on the "mat" supply. Without the farmers it is possible there could be hyperinflation anyway because so many mats would taken out of the economy the supply would be a fraction of what it is. Its a common arguement about the effects of farmers in L2. (farmers in L2 don't only farm cash but base crafting materials as well which they sell legitimately ingame)
Like I said, everything has value and nothing is wasted. It works to darn good lol.
Yes GuildWars has bot problems still because they can hide in an instance forever, also making it more useless to fight against them, because you simply can't. They are in their own alternate world, but still effect the market of the world you are in. Although in Guild Wars you definately DO NOT need to buy currency because it is easily obtainable, and PvP isn't really a fight for your life like it is in L2, but instead a match or tournament.
I like guild wars, I play it! It is a pretty good game. But I definately can't think of it as an MMO. You say all games should be instanced, well maybe all free games, but no definately not. GuildWars has one of the most thin communites I have ever seen. When I log on, I usually just have to grab a henchi. It is hard to make decient friends in side a town. Almost all my friends were made outside of towns in L2. Either saving thier lives, or them saving mine! In L2 you may be able to see bots, but you can also see people. Even with all the bots the community is much better.
Also Guild Wars dosn't really have active GMs...that is why the only warning for 3rd party programs are that it may contain key loggers. It is rare for a botter to be bannned, even though sometime Arena Net Does clean out some...
The reason why the 3rd party market hurts L2 so much is because of it's open PvP. Better Gear and Higher Levels gives you almost sure success in PvP. Most likely you will join a clan that uses 3rd party help also, and then you will be super powerful. Being strong gives you money with castles, it give you fame, and it also protects you against loosing gear and levels, since both can be dropped in L2.
The only people that use bots are hardcore pvpers or ones that want to be hardcore pvpers. The only people that buy adena are well...practically everyone...because they like the look of new armor, it helps them in PvP and PvE, etc etc.
And Torak is right, it is the BUYERS that ruin the economy, not the farmers. L2 is a completely free market. If adena had it's value based on normal quantity supplied, demand for expensive equipment would fall, and of course expensive equipment would become more rare on the buying and selling end of things, and prices would end up falling on all things. No more 100mil stage 12 crystals. Those would be maybe 20mil. No more 200mil helmets, those would be maybe 70mil. But if you have money in RL, I guess people will spend it on in game stuff too...waste of rl things imo...but whatever.
nice to see everyone talk about gw .. we do have some bots in gw , but they are banned everyday. ingame ads if reported get a ban also. so many bots are being banned , that even some humans get banned for farming. gw doesnt require huge amounts of gold to be a good played , so its easy to catch a gold seller , or a no life solo farmer. i think bots will be in mmos forever , you can start get used to them. i never tryed lineage II still have my trial key tho , i might get a look some day just to see the bot parade.
the truth is , a lot of people buy ingame gold with real money. if NCsoft starts selling ingame money , the farmers will not care about that , they will sell it cheaper , and keep on boting the game.
we ( players ) and them ( devs ) will have to live with the bots forever ... as long as people have real life money and like to have that super shield without killing the same dragon 10 times , i could add a few zeros to that ..
and the more bots are banned , the more they evolve to look like humans , bots are like any kind of crime , police evolve to get them , they evolve to make the crime without geting notice by the police.
i can imagine in the future i might be having chitchat with a bot and i think its human , i even invite to my guild becose its a nice person ...
I have been playin L2 for quite some time and even though the bots can get a bit anoyying all i do is kill them or train them and pick up there drops. = free gear other then that, some of them buff you if you start hitting them, thats ok to grind fully buffed before you are done and then train them. Also there are plenty of perma reds on my server who when they get borred they go and kill some bots, they dont ever wash because they have sooo many bot kills. And ppl know them for bot killing and they are left alone. Nc has bannd a ton of accunts but every aaccount they ban a key is purchased almost immediatly, and it repeats. so each bit account is somebody paying nc. monthly and for new keys. chances are it wont change, so i accept it and use the bots for what i can. besides getting out some aggression on bots is very relieving.
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Waiting on Guild Wars 2
/sign
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
lol how many times you gonna sign your own petition? now lets get the login names and passwords of dead people and get em to vote like they do in the government!
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
Well first I think they should remove it, becaue it eats resources which caused lag which isn't needed...but anyway.
GameGuard isn't technically designed to stop bots. It is designed to stop keyloggers, etc. The only way it will stop a bot program is if it has a keylogger in it, or the bot used "key logger proticol" which a very few actually did. Because we all know that the 2 biggest bots out there emulate an artificial client response to bypass gameguard.
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
Here is the link to nProtect
As you can see they say thus: "However, defined rules in game
system are being violated by those who have ill intention of using
personal account by hacking and game hack based-foul play."
As you can see, they make mention to personal account hacking = keyloggers etc. And they make reference to game client hacking, but neither of the two popular bot programs hack. If you research more about the popular bot programs you will find that all it is, is an emulated client that has the ability to run scripts instead of the need for human interface. It is actually quite amazing. And I am also sure many of you know that The Unreal Engine is VERY easy to modify, and that is why bots are incredibally hard to detect threw just connection, and that is is so easy for bot companies to change the bot program sooo fast so that is an endless struggle against NCsoft and bot developers, and since the virtual currency business a multi-million dollar company relies on these programs, they can put more resources into it than lets say the NCNA L2 team.
Anyway, I don't think the average user knows enough about what they are talking about, and enough about bot programs and programs used by NCsoft, including the game engine itself. But I would definately not expect legit players to understand the workings of a bot program, because they don't have the full resources to find all that information. So they just complain, but rightfully so. Your service should be up to your expectations. Don't ask how I know all the stuff I do, because I won't tell you!
Also another incoveinent truth is that NCsoft actually can use different methods to detect bots much much more better! To a point that real players would be thinking twice, maybe even 8 times before trying a bot program. And farmers would have to be much more descreat and careful, No AFK farmers in catacombs and good hunting areas. NCsoft will only ban obvious bots that had many petitions by different account users, because all they want to do is not tarnish their name that bad, but at the same time want the thousands in subscription costs that farmers give them.
Waiting on Guild Wars 2
And from NCsofts mouth, who the frick would belive that! I mean for sakes, that is the whole problem right here in this forums. People think NCsoft equals 2 faced, hypicritical, lying sons of ol' malhums...so eh...whatever...
This whole topic is a waste of my time, lol.
Just Quit! I mean shit... It is just a damn game... And my friends and clan members are still playing, so it dosn't really matter when someone else quits. The more ppl the quit the more powerful I will become! THATS RIGHT, DO IT! QUIT! L2 is a shitty ass game! Don't play it! Go AWAY! Stay away from it! IT IS MINE, ALL MINE I SAY!!! MWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
Averagely, that's only half true. And that scripting "language" is a very poor attempt at writing one.
Not really.
Flexibility of unreal engines have absolutely nothing to do with that. Protocol used by L2 change very rarely, and in a very minimal way. It's also quite simple, and has nothing to do with original U2's net code.
Detection and banning of any possible bot would be quite trival, but would require actual devs to participate, instead of farting in their chairs. You can ask Himred, or any L2J dev, if you don't believe me.
Rrright... that falls into conspiracy theory.
At the moment NC puts around 0 efforts [at least efforts into something even minimally logical]. They do put a lot of efforts into forum cleaning though.
DStuff / Soltys
ps.
If you like L2 in its current state - fine, but don't get yourself that easily BSed regarding NC or bots.
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DStuff
The problem with L2 is that the game mechanics make botting extremely profitable. So profitable that a huge % of the population is willing to risk being permanently banned by doing so.
Look at the Prophet class and tell me it wasn't specifically designed to be 2 boxed. You buff your party, you sit afk for 15-20 minutes, you buff them again. Repeat. Perfect i mean perfect class to bot. Prophets are the standard de facto bot class. You see prophet bots everywhere because of it.
Swordsingers and Bladedancers are pretty much the same except -1- they have to buff every 2 minutes not every 20 minutes and -2- they are somewhat useful for additional damage. This creates the illusion that they're fun to play when really they're just a couple more bot classes.
Healers are no different. Elven Elders, Bishops, Shilen Elders. Shilen Elders are one of the most botted classes because of Empower. Sometimes you're even better off botting healers than having an actual person play them because of the inhuman healing response time that only a bot program can provide. You wouldn't want to rely on them during pvp, but for the mindless grind they are perfect.
Then you have the 2 Orc mages, but at least they aren't 100% confined to a buff/heal role.
Now take all these classes that are perfect for botting and combine with the fact that you can't do anything without them in the first place. Going out to level? Better have a support class with you unless you feel spending all day regenerating your HP/MP. You're better off sitting in town for x hours as you wait for your support class friend to log on than to go out and risk death leveling by yourself. Don't feel like waiting? L2Walker to the rescue.
If NCSoft wants to stop the bot problem they need to re configure the classes. Buffs should be useful but not necessary. Waiting for a support class to log on for your party shouldn't be compulsory. Buffers and healers should have something other than buffing and healing to spend their MP on. Give them more damage output or something.
And then finally L2 will be a good game.
L2J servers can easily stop bots. Bots are designed for official servers because that is where the money is. If a player wants to use a bot on L2J they will have to figure out a lot of different things before they can connect undetectable. L2J servers are quite a bit different (most of the time) the official. Half the reason private servers don't have bot problems is because walker dosn't care about them. I am sure if there was profit to be made on priv servers, they would have the same or more problems as official.
The prophet class dosn't have to sit on it's ass for 20 min. And BDs are incredibally useful with hex and can boost their strength all the way to cap, so they do hella alot of damage. The SwS can be fun, if you equip it with a Dragon Slayer and like that kind of play style.
Orc mages are retarded on walker. For one, they are actually very powerful, and good in pvp. You can put one on walker for buffs, but that is just a waste.
BTW buffs aren't necessary. You can hunt without one. But your exp/hour will be really bad, and no one wants to grind any slower in L2.
The game would be fixed if they added more dynamic content that a simple script could not execute. Content that is worth playing, and keeps the player engaged. Content that isn't painful. Content that is fun! Content that you would have to be insane to miss by means of botting.
The End...
That's a shame.
The problem with botting isn't a technical one in my opinion, it's NCsoft saying, i want money and i want to save face and maximize both because it maximizes profits. End of story. They ban bots to save face but allow the vast majority for the $$$. We can't blame them, it's a capitalistic world and this is what they do.
If you're an investor in NCsoft you'd pull your money if you knew they weren't maximizing profits. Business has no morals, as long as you stay legal, they will do whatever they can to maximize profits no matter how much of a dick thing it is.
I play this stupid game because it's fun, i complain about this game because it's not as fun as it could be and i hate companies that lie and bullshit. I'd never complain if NCsoft said, "we don't do shit against bots because we want to make money, feel free to quit cuz we're bullshit, we still made one hell of a game though and you know it's fun, since we only care about money, sorry for the inconvenience of bots. Play our games again. thanks. You know we make good games."
I'm not very technical but i thought a bot program just emulated teh clicks of a real human user to a point where it is undetectable? Anyway, i love this game but i'd be so happy if they went bankrupt. I'd send them a letter actually rubbing it in their face despte the fact i lost everything in the game.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Yes the bot program does emulate human clicks, through means known as scripts or macros...whichever way you wish to call it.
Eveyone knows what walker is...so let me break it down. There are 2 times of walker, one that connects to the executable file of the L2 client and one that is its own client so to speak, also known as out of game walker. The in game walker (the one that connects to the .exe) lets you play the game just like you normally would, except that you can see MOB levels and HP and MP, along with player health and a few stats such as equipment, and also pretty much anything you wanna know about players you are partied with, including their lvl, but u have to be partied. You also get the feature to auto combat, which is what you were talking about (emulation of human clicks). This is 99% undetectable, except for the bot activity it actually does when you run the scrip/macro/human emulated clicks...whatever. Then you can do a series of tests to check to see if they are actually running a bot, but again if there is someone watching their "bots" every time someone pms them, or whatever...even comes into their area it can set off an alarm notifying them, and even disable the macro/script (without logging out).
Out of game Walker does all the features of in game walker, except you don't load the client. It is it's own client. You don't see graphics, and the normal things you see in game. This is what lots of people use to run a second box, since it dosn't take any resources. You could technically run about 200 of these on a PC that couldn't even run one client of L2. Again it has all the safety features built in, but won't have as confortable of an interface as the in game walker...since it is just a bunch of parameters...harder to bypass GM tests you could say. Also since this is a whole new client than the in game one, it is slightly easier to detect.
GMs usually won't ban bots, unless they are AFK (away from keyboard). But if you can respond and deal with a GM or whatever when the time comes, most likely you won't be banned...
It is tough to be able to ban someone without a doubt, esspecially if they are monitoring their accounts. And it seems about 90% of farmer accounts are always monitored, so in turn barely or never banned.
What Jukan is talking about sounds a lot like the bot problems Guild Wars has had in the past (and likely still has). The difference here being that A.Net cleans house every now and then and mass bans them.
While I personally havn't played L2, I gather from this topic that bots have become a SERIOUS problem in this game. Dosn't make me very eager to try it out, even with all the free codes I get from GW purchases.
And don't let anyone fool you. Bots always hurt the game on the whole, and it doesn't matter what game it is. Suddenly, the in game currency isn't worth what it's supposed to be worth because Joe Shmoe purchassed an unlimited supply off of e-bay. Now those items you worked so hard for and the time you spent getting them isn't worth as much. Or, when you go to buy an item you can't get the money to buy it because Joe Shmoe just pays whatever anyone asks him (because he has unlimited money) which makes the same item way overpriced for you. And I honestly don't buy the "you're paying for someone else's time" because you're paying for the game and then paying someone to play it for you. That's self defeating if I've ever heard it. Oh, and let's not forget about the bot farmers that kill every monster in range so you can't ever get a kill yourself (which is why I think all games should be fully instanced like GW, but that's just me). Or how about those trade bots that spam you with whispers or trade requests? Those are always fun, right?
Honestly, if the game is that overrun with botters and the devs don't want to do anything about it (and in fact do quite a lot to defend it) then it's time to cancel the subscription.
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Well VGJustice,
There are 2 faces of L2. The game is alot of fun and is challenging, it has a social environment unmatched in most MMO's higher up and has a great, well made world. However there are many bots. The economy is a bit overinflated but to be honest, you don't need to buy anything from players for a very long time (C grade or level 40, even then, you don't necessarily have to) if you set yourself up for it. So...the problem doesn't really show itself until after that point. Now, the big question is, will you stick with the game past 40 anyway? Its a tough grind for some. The main problem is this
The L2 economy is 100% player driven. Everything ingame has value. Nothing is useless. Nothing is wasted. It designed to damn good and its to easy to just take advantage of.
The fact of the matter is there is no getting away from farmers, IMHO the game worse then L2 is easily WoW. I found them within a week of DAoC and FFXI has similar problems, so what can you do? Stop playing MMO's?
BTW, I got a nice set of Brig gators off a bot last night.
You make an excelent point, Torak. And, to be honest, it's still hard for me to understand exactly how badly botters can mess things up since all I'm really used to is GW, where you can get high level maxed equipment fairly easily or just plain for free (making a PvP Only character in GW nets you free equipment based on what you've found or unlocked in the game. Free PvP equipment forever). I still say that botters will always and forever hurt the game economy for the reasons I stated above, and it is pretty shameful if the company goes out of their way to allow it to happen.
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Play Guild Wars? Go here - http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Main_Page
And go here for the new official Guild Wars Wiki! http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Main_Page
2 more bite the dust a few minutes ago! To bad no drop today. Oh well, plenty more where they came from.
Whats worse in GW is that you can make a level cap character and there is still power leveling and gold buying. Its the PLAYERS who are insane!
I think WoW was the first game I actually got ingame mail with ads on it. In FFXI I got flooded with gold buying email on their email system that comes with the game. In fact, I got so much, it was to much of a pain to delete it, so I quit the game. Now WoW and FFXI are 2 great examples of economies that are super hyper inflated.
Who knows how much of that is due to currency buying. What makes it even more amazing is all you need to do in WoW to make money is basically nothing but play. A monkey can make tons of cash in WoW, and its the biggest gold buying game around.
Its really hard to say how much damage currency buyers do to the game economy. (notice I said BUYERS, the farmers don't do anything but collect it, its the buyer who does the damage by flooding the economy with the money, if players didn't buy, farmers wouldn't farm) Its also hard to say in a game like L2 because of the effect farmers have on the "mat" supply. Without the farmers it is possible there could be hyperinflation anyway because so many mats would taken out of the economy the supply would be a fraction of what it is. Its a common arguement about the effects of farmers in L2. (farmers in L2 don't only farm cash but base crafting materials as well which they sell legitimately ingame)
Like I said, everything has value and nothing is wasted. It works to darn good lol.
Yes GuildWars has bot problems still because they can hide in an instance forever, also making it more useless to fight against them, because you simply can't. They are in their own alternate world, but still effect the market of the world you are in. Although in Guild Wars you definately DO NOT need to buy currency because it is easily obtainable, and PvP isn't really a fight for your life like it is in L2, but instead a match or tournament.
I like guild wars, I play it! It is a pretty good game. But I definately can't think of it as an MMO. You say all games should be instanced, well maybe all free games, but no definately not. GuildWars has one of the most thin communites I have ever seen. When I log on, I usually just have to grab a henchi. It is hard to make decient friends in side a town. Almost all my friends were made outside of towns in L2. Either saving thier lives, or them saving mine! In L2 you may be able to see bots, but you can also see people. Even with all the bots the community is much better.
Also Guild Wars dosn't really have active GMs...that is why the only warning for 3rd party programs are that it may contain key loggers. It is rare for a botter to be bannned, even though sometime Arena Net Does clean out some...
The reason why the 3rd party market hurts L2 so much is because of it's open PvP. Better Gear and Higher Levels gives you almost sure success in PvP. Most likely you will join a clan that uses 3rd party help also, and then you will be super powerful. Being strong gives you money with castles, it give you fame, and it also protects you against loosing gear and levels, since both can be dropped in L2.
The only people that use bots are hardcore pvpers or ones that want to be hardcore pvpers. The only people that buy adena are well...practically everyone...because they like the look of new armor, it helps them in PvP and PvE, etc etc.
And Torak is right, it is the BUYERS that ruin the economy, not the farmers. L2 is a completely free market. If adena had it's value based on normal quantity supplied, demand for expensive equipment would fall, and of course expensive equipment would become more rare on the buying and selling end of things, and prices would end up falling on all things. No more 100mil stage 12 crystals. Those would be maybe 20mil. No more 200mil helmets, those would be maybe 70mil. But if you have money in RL, I guess people will spend it on in game stuff too...waste of rl things imo...but whatever.
nice to see everyone talk about gw .. we do have some bots in gw , but they are banned everyday.
ingame ads if reported get a ban also.
so many bots are being banned , that even some humans get banned for farming.
gw doesnt require huge amounts of gold to be a good played , so its easy to catch a gold seller , or a no life solo farmer.
i think bots will be in mmos forever , you can start get used to them.
i never tryed lineage II still have my trial key tho , i might get a look some day just to see the bot parade.
the truth is , a lot of people buy ingame gold with real money. if NCsoft starts selling ingame money , the farmers will not care about that , they will sell it cheaper , and keep on boting the game.
we ( players ) and them ( devs ) will have to live with the bots forever ... as long as people have real life money and like to have that super shield without killing the same dragon 10 times , i could add a few zeros to that ..
and the more bots are banned , the more they evolve to look like humans , bots are like any kind of crime , police evolve to get them , they evolve to make the crime without geting notice by the police.
i can imagine in the future i might be having chitchat with a bot and i think its human , i even invite to my guild becose its a nice person ...
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