ianubisi hijacking thread: Bots can only thrive in a game with shoddy design

MmoSwan

Since ianubisi insists on hijacking the thread of ncsoft support with his theory about the reason for bots (Bots can only thrive in a game with shoddy design) I thought I'd start the thread for him so we can stay on topic.

I think that theory is wrong. If you ever would have take a close look into what todays bots can do you surely wouldn't say something like that. I've seen the following functions inside botting tools:

• Fully automatic quests. All those hunting, delivery etc quests can be done with ease since both nested dialogue as well as defining paths is easy with todays bots.
• Full scripting support for additonal logics. You need to do certain actions based on certain inventory states, on the place where you got ported or on what a npc asks you to do? You need to use certain skills for certain mobs/npcs/quests? Add a few lines of script and you're done.
• Sophisticated function for parties. If you look at the L2 bots you notice they got a lots of function that just are made to optimize hunting parties. You got per person buffs, different heal function for single players, you got options how to handle attacks on certain party members.
• Sophisticated fighting. You can define what skills to use in what situations. Situations are defined by different factors: solo mobs or group mobs. Are they standing near each other? Are they social if they do? Define weapon/skills sets for different ranges etc.
• Auto trading functions. You need to trade items? Define lists of stuff you want to sell and buy and let your bot do it. Write a script to define the logics for buying/selling and give alarm if prices change too much.
• Lots more.

So I'd love to hear some scenario from you that bots can't handle. And I'd like to get at least 2-3 pvp oriented mmorpgs where you can't bot at least parts.

Thread I am referring to: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/955310/thread/94011#955310

Thanks.

the swan

SnaKey

A game is programmed right? People look for games that invent new things and bring new things to the market. So, really they are asking for anything the devs can dream up with to be programmed........ right?

Well, the same is true with bots. If you're talented enough, then anything you can dream up is possible. There is no way to possibly ever get rid of bots. Sure, you can stop programs like Auto-Hotkey, Keyclone, and Auto-It from running while the game is... but that only gets rid of the scripters, there is no way to stop a fully qualified programmer.

Game mechanics play little or no role in how bots are made.

Gameloading

I have to agree with ianubisi in a way. Anybody who played Lineage 2 can easily see that the game is created with botting in mind (Even mmorpg "experts" have said this, these are not just my words).
and Lineage 2 is not the only game. RF Online, same thing. its actually a lot harder to bot in WoW, Everquest or EVE. then it is in RFO or L2.

MmoSwan

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Originally posted by Gameloading
I have to agree with ianubisi in a way. Anybody who played Lineage 2 can easily see that the game is created with botting in mind (Even mmorpg "experts" have said this, these are not just my words).
and Lineage 2 is not the only game. RF Online, same thing. its actually a lot harder to bot in WoW, Everquest or EVE. then it is in RFO or L2.

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Basically it's true that l2 is great for botters. The question for me is mostly: Is the game too simple to bot there? What could be done to change it? Or are there other reasons for the excessive bot count in L2 compared to other games?

Imho there are mostly 3 reasons:

1. NcSoft doesn't care, so it's no big risk.
2. The repetive grind is one of the worst in any MMORPG.
3. It gives you a big pvp advantage.

I believe 1. is the main point. People know there is not really a risk with cheating in L2. So they don't have a reason to grind and focus on getting strong in pvp instead. I doubt there would be as many cheaters if NcSoft would at least try to do something. Nobody wants to loose his chars and the money they paid for it easily.

As for botting in WoW, it's as easy, there are tools for it out there. It's just that hardly anybody does it even though my wow playing bro said he saw a few bot farms with 20-30 ranger bot on his server. In WoW you need a few days to get to max level and then it's just raiding and maybe some pvp for which you don't need bots.

I am pretty sure you can do WoW raids with a full party of bots but it's not really worth it since bind on pick and other mechanisms make sure you can't sell the items you gained. It's not interessting for commercial farmers and normal players likely don't want to pay for 40 accounts to get a nice item.

Yes this simple machanism works but I hate it since it restricts my playstyle a lot and dumbs down the game for me. Being forced to raid at fixed time - every evening for 4-6 hours and for months - just to get a good armor set and a decent weapon is not my pair of shoes. I prefer to play when I want and for how long I want. Also I love trading and often work together with crafters to play the market. That's not really possible if the good stuff is bind on pick.

the swan

SnaKey

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Originally posted by Gameloading
or EVE

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I've never played most of the games you mentioned, but EVE online is EXTREMELY easy to bot in.
But the Devs and GMs give a damn and ban botters on the spot if they are caught. Play a free trial and go to mine for your first time, all the rocks are not gone because of newbies in their tiny little frigates. Try talking to one of those huge barges out there mining the totally safe systems.

baff

Or is it just that simple games are soooo boring, that botting is the only sensible way to gain levels?

The more tedious and repetative the game, the more the need for bots.

Unknown

Let me ask you a question:  Who will get sick more often, a person with no immune system or a person with an immune system?

Now both will get sick, that is a given.  And if you think there will ever be an immune system that is 100% proof against all disease you need to stop smoking the crack.

You can take it even further and talk about how having an immune system can be detrimental.  For example when you want an organ transplant it is your immune system that screws everything up. 

Now lets just say an MMO is a human body and hackers are parasitic viruses and bacteria.  Well ... etc etc etc

MmoSwan

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Originally posted by baff

Or is it just that simple games are soooo boring, that botting is the only sensible way to gain levels?
The more tedious and repetative the game, the more the need for bots.

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Then why would you bot those games instead of playing something that's fun for you?

the swan

Torak

IMHO, it has 1000% to do with the players attitude. Its so typical to blame the game. No don't take responsiblity MMO community.

Sure NCSoft sucks for not doing anything about it, but the PLAYERS CREATED THE WHOLE F**KING MESS TO BEGIN WITH.

Players make the demand for the bot. The bot does not create demand on its own.

Look at IGE. EVERY game is fully represented there. EVERY MMORPG.

The players fuel the need for the bot by purchasing the currency. Its that simple.

The game is the game. Play it as designed or cancel and leave if you don't likeit or its to hard for your taste. NO ONE IS FORCING ANYONE TO "BUY" THE CURRENCY. I NEVER DID AND I GOT THROUGH THE GAME JUST FINE THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

THANKS FOR F*CKING UP MY FAVORITE GAME ALL YOU CURRENCY BUYING AS**OLES

Darkchronic

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Originally posted by Torak


Look at IGE. EVERY game is fully represented there. EVERY MMORPG.

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I don't see World of Pirates there.

paulscott

there is a way to get rid of bots. 

heavilly hack linux so it only has your game on it, have no file writing functions except from a network source, and for like favorites/mail forthe OS's intranet type thing.  and pay royalties to linux.  it also have the benefit of having a non-burdensome OS since you're running on such a trimmed down one.  so you can have graphics that put current ones to shame.

or you could just have utterly seizure inducing graphics that change the textures completely ever second.

baff

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Originally posted by MmoSwan

Originally posted by baff

Or is it just that simple games are soooo boring, that botting is the only sensible way to gain levels?
The more tedious and repetative the game, the more the need for bots.

Then why would you bot those games instead of playing something that's fun for you?

the swan

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If you use a bot, it's still fun. More fun infact. Grind, time and money sink removed.

Why would you want to grind if you don't have to? It's the people without bots that will be looking for fun elsewhere.

Wizardry

OMG retards abound everywhere!

this guy states this>>"If you use a bot it's still fun"lmao ,can intelligence be shattered anymore than this?

IF you are botting YOU<<<keyword,are not even playing.You can sit there and look at the screen like an idiot ,but you are not even playing,the script is playing but YOU are not.

So Einstein,if YOU<<<keyword again are NOT even playing how does that equate to any fun whatsoever?

Oh wait maybe i missed something,perhaps it is extremely overwhelming even,FUN to activate the script then sit back and enjoy watching everyone else in the game actually playing.

This analogy is like watching NFL football players on sunday and try to say you are having fun playing,when all you are doing is watching.If you can't see that you are NOT <<<anotherkeyword...playing the game when botting ,then you really need help,maybe a catscan to see if the brain actually has any working cells left.

MmoSwan

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Originally posted by baff

If you use a bot, it's still fun. More fun infact. Grind, time and money sink removed.
Why would you want to grind if you don't have to? It's the people without bots that will be looking for fun elsewhere.

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The problem with that is just that you lower the fun for the real players. I am not the biggest fan of grind but in L2 I was able to accept it since it added some spice. You had to go level to progress. There were no safe zones to xp (before they introduced rift) and being at war with several clans/allies made me pvp a lot which took the boredom out of the grind. And yeah I don't want to loose the xp I "worked" so hard for, that's another reason for me to win more

Sure on some days i lost more XP then i won and progress was slow after all but it was a lot more fun then it's today: I go to some catacomb to go fight some people that we're at war with and they force log as soon as I come in range. Booooooring. Same goes for looking through walls (radar), auto bsoe at 50% health or all the other extremely annoying behaviour those cheaters show. Heros popping out of nowhere is just boring, too.

I understand that people don't like the grind but imho they should just go to some x5.000 rate private server if they don't want the grind. They don't really need to annoy people that want to play the game themselves nor have to bot 24/7 for month to get to max level.

Edit: I still would love to see the game examples where botting or using macros is impossible or don't bring you any advantages. I have seen bots/macros for the following games:

• WoW
• Guild Wars
• Lineage 2
• Everquest I + II
• Horizons
• Diablo I + II
• Silkroad
• Flyff
• AC
• DAoC
• EVE
• KoC
• FFXI
• MU Online
• RF Online
• SWG
• UO

Which is about every MMO with RPG elements that I played. At least the ones I remember at the moment. I know about more tools for other games but I only will list what I saw myself.

the swan