Originally posted by poopypants But 7,000,000 people can't be wrong, can they?
Hey... McDonalds has served Billions.... doesn't make it the best restaraunt... just the most popular.
Seriously, which would you rather: A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever. or A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer While I might eat at McDonalds a bit more often I know fer darn sure which one I'd RATHER eat at
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by poopypants But 7,000,000 people can't be wrong, can they?
Hey... McDonalds has served Billions.... doesn't make it the best restaraunt... just the most popular.
Seriously, which would you rather: A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever. or A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer While I might eat at McDonalds a bit more often I know fer darn sure which one I'd RATHER eat at
yay! the flawed Mcdonalds theory again.
MCdonalds is famous because its easy to reach, its everywhere, and its popular among little children.
When you look for a fastfood restaurant, you look something thats close to your position. MCdonalds is close to everywhere. this does not count for WoW. you think which mmorpg you will buy first.
You can't compare the fastfood business to the gaming business. they work diffrent, period.
also, McDonalds IS one of the best FASTFOOD restaurants.
Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by poopypants But 7,000,000 people can't be wrong, can they?
Hey... McDonalds has served Billions.... doesn't make it the best restaraunt... just the most popular.
Seriously, which would you rather: A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever. or A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer While I might eat at McDonalds a bit more often I know fer darn sure which one I'd RATHER eat at
yay! the flawed Mcdonalds theory again.
MCdonalds is famous because its easy to reach, its everywhere, and its popular among little children.
When you look for a fastfood restaurant, you look something thats close to your position. MCdonalds is close to everywhere. this does not count for WoW. you think which mmorpg you will buy first.
You can't compare the fastfood business to the gaming business. they work diffrent, period.
also, McDonalds IS one of the best FASTFOOD restaurants.
I would argue that Hardees is far superior... better burgers.. better variety on the menu..... Fewer locations
The McDonalds analogy is not *really* flawed unless you're taking it 100% literally (which is silly).
WoW drew in NON MMORPG gamers to the genre. It drew on an ENORMOUS Warcraft fanbase as well as a HUGE game developer name. SOE may be well known in the MMO genre but in the normal 'gaming' market 'at large' they really aren't all that well known. They don't produce anything but MMO's so nobody outside the MMO gaming community really knows who they are.
Same for Turbine Same for Mythic
WoW had several things going for it that really catapulted it to where it is:
Timing.... a lot of stale MMO games were on the market and a flawed EQ2 launch left a lot of former EQ1 players pissed.
Timing.... In the regular computer game market we've been in a bit of a slump for quality RPG's recentlly as well. KOTORII wasn't very good and Vampire: Bloodlines.... is a niche market game. Other than those nothing really BIG in the normal gaming market was available at the time WoW released.
Name.... Warcraft is a HUGE name in the gaming industry. EVERYONE who plays video games has at least heard of warcraft if not played one of those games.
Name.... Blizzard.... need I say more? Name a game company (other than BioWare) with a better rep in the gaming industry
Quality.... While WoW isn't the BEST game on the market, feature for feature, it was the most well DONE MMO on the market in the feature set it chose to use. It was *relatively* bug free. No huge show stoppers. Fairly stable... Nothing spectacular but nothing that would drive a new player away screaming in anger (unlike many MMO launches that any of us can easilly remember)
Quantity.... It had plenty of content for players to chew through for the first 60 levels. Blizzard did a great job of making sure what was in the game WORKED and that there was plenty of it to last a while.
EQ2, even if it had been a huge success at release, would never have reached WoW's numbers.... no matter what. It had, at best, 3 of the 6 factors WoW had. While EQ was relatively well known in the MMO market most Single player gamers already knew about it and had decided EverQuest wasn't their thing. So EQ2 wouldn't really have drawn much attention from them. World of Warcraft, however, being based on the Warcraft name.... would.
So while the McDonald's analogy is a bit trite it is TRUE: WoW isn't necessarily a better GAME than other MMO's already on the market. It's just got a TON more visibility than anything else.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by poopypants But 7,000,000 people can't be wrong, can they?
Hey... McDonalds has served Billions.... doesn't make it the best restaraunt... just the most popular.
Seriously, which would you rather: A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever. or A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer While I might eat at McDonalds a bit more often I know fer darn sure which one I'd RATHER eat at
I was being sarcastic...although not very effectively!
Unfortunetly there aren't any outback MMOGs either...so I've had to do without. And I ain't happy about that!
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Gameloading Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by poopypants But 7,000,000 people can't be wrong, can they?
Hey... McDonalds has served Billions.... doesn't make it the best restaraunt... just the most popular.
Seriously, which would you rather: A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever. or A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer While I might eat at McDonalds a bit more often I know fer darn sure which one I'd RATHER eat at
yay! the flawed Mcdonalds theory again.
MCdonalds is famous because its easy to reach, its everywhere, and its popular among little children.
When you look for a fastfood restaurant, you look something thats close to your position. MCdonalds is close to everywhere. this does not count for WoW. you think which mmorpg you will buy first.
You can't compare the fastfood business to the gaming business. they work diffrent, period.
also, McDonalds IS one of the best FASTFOOD restaurants.
I would argue that Hardees is far superior... better burgers.. better variety on the menu..... Fewer locations
The McDonalds analogy is not *really* flawed unless you're taking it 100% literally (which is silly).
WoW drew in NON MMORPG gamers to the genre. It drew on an ENORMOUS Warcraft fanbase as well as a HUGE game developer name. SOE may be well known in the MMO genre but in the normal 'gaming' market 'at large' they really aren't all that well known. They don't produce anything but MMO's so nobody outside the MMO gaming community really knows who they are.
Although I fully agree that World of Warcraft most likely pulled a lot of non-mmorpg players, nobody really knows how much experienced MMO players are currently playing WoW. from my experience, there are actually quite a lot of mmorpg vets playing World of Warcraft. and still even if only 400k of those 6.5 million players are mmorpg veterans, that is STILL more then any other mmorpg.
Same for Turbine Same for Mythic
WoW had several things going for it that really catapulted it to where it is:
Timing.... a lot of stale MMO games were on the market and a flawed EQ2 launch left a lot of former EQ1 players pissed.
Timing.... In the regular computer game market we've been in a bit of a slump for quality RPG's recentlly as well. KOTORII wasn't very good and Vampire: Bloodlines.... is a niche market game. Other than those nothing really BIG in the normal gaming market was available at the time WoW released.
Name.... Warcraft is a HUGE name in the gaming industry. EVERYONE who plays video games has at least heard of warcraft if not played one of those games.
Name.... Blizzard.... need I say more? Name a game company (other than BioWare) with a better rep in the gaming industry
Quality.... While WoW isn't the BEST game on the market, feature for feature, it was the most well DONE MMO on the market in the feature set it chose to use. It was *relatively* bug free. No huge show stoppers. Fairly stable... Nothing spectacular but nothing that would drive a new player away screaming in anger (unlike many MMO launches that any of us can easilly remember)
Quantity.... It had plenty of content for players to chew through for the first 60 levels. Blizzard did a great job of making sure what was in the game WORKED and that there was plenty of it to last a while.
EQ2, even if it had been a huge success at release, would never have reached WoW's numbers.... no matter what. It had, at best, 3 of the 6 factors WoW had. While EQ was relatively well known in the MMO market most Single player gamers already knew about it and had decided EverQuest wasn't their thing. So EQ2 wouldn't really have drawn much attention from them. World of Warcraft, however, being based on the Warcraft name.... would.
So while the McDonald's analogy is a bit trite it is TRUE: WoW isn't necessarily a better GAME than other MMO's already on the market. It's just got a TON more visibility than anything else.
Imo, its not really the 6.5 million mark that proves WoW is the best, although it does say something about its quality.. its simply the mmorpg with the most awards, and the highest review average.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by Elnator What I'm arguing here is statistical FACT. EVE has been, and is, very successful. It has 170,000 PAID subscribers. It has 30,000 players (roughly) online at peak time. those are all easily verifiable facts.
The last time I checked, EVE had 140,000 paid accounts. 170,000 paid accounts would seem to agree with the trends in SirBruce's data.
But there is a difference between 170,000 subscriptions, and 170,000 subscribers. A big difference, considering the fact that the game design really justifies the second, third, and fourth account.
The box price is cheap ($20), alts can be levelled without having to grind, and the extra accounts allow the user to specialize in many useful things, and have ready access to the abilities. Its no wonder why nearly everyone I met had more than one account, or if they didn't, were going to get more. There is simply no good reason not to if you have the means to do it.
Now if there were 170,000 subscribers, my next question would be how many subscriptions are those 170,000 subscribers paying for? Only SirBruce and CCP know, but unless the game is toting 250,000-300,000 accounts, basically doubling the subscription numbers at lull between major content upgrades, it is highly unlikely the game boasts 170,000 paid subscribers. Moreover, if there are more than 30,000 characters online at one time, how many players are playing those 30,000 characters?
So while I'm open to being suprised, the notion that there are 170,000 people paying for EVE is a misrepresentation. It would be like saying I fed 170,000 people because I sold 170,000 hotdogs. Seeing as many order two three, four, or five, the number of customers are much lower.
Multiboxing is common in ALL MMO's and from the info provided by CCP it's a small portion of the playerbase that has more than one account in the game anyways. A paid subscriber is a paid subscriber, regardless of whether it's 1 person using 2 accounts or not. They still use the same amount of resources on the server.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by Elnator What I'm arguing here is statistical FACT. EVE has been, and is, very successful. It has 170,000 PAID subscribers. It has 30,000 players (roughly) online at peak time. those are all easily verifiable facts.
The last time I checked, EVE had 140,000 paid accounts. 170,000 paid accounts would seem to agree with the trends in SirBruce's data.
But there is a difference between 170,000 subscriptions, and 170,000 subscribers. A big difference, considering the fact that the game design really justifies the second, third, and fourth account.
The box price is cheap ($20), alts can be levelled without having to grind, and the extra accounts allow the user to specialize in many useful things, and have ready access to the abilities. Its no wonder why nearly everyone I met had more than one account, or if they didn't, were going to get more. There is simply no good reason not to if you have the means to do it.
Now if there were 170,000 subscribers, my next question would be how many subscriptions are those 170,000 subscribers paying for? Only SirBruce and CCP know, but unless the game is toting 250,000-300,000 accounts, basically doubling the subscription numbers at lull between major content upgrades, it is highly unlikely the game boasts 170,000 paid subscribers. Moreover, if there are more than 30,000 characters online at one time, how many players are playing those 30,000 characters?
So while I'm open to being suprised, the notion that there are 170,000 people paying for EVE is a misrepresentation. It would be like saying I fed 170,000 people because I sold 170,000 hotdogs. Seeing as many order two three, four, or five, the number of customers are much lower.
Does it matter? EVE has roughly 170,000 subscriptions/subscribers/whatever. 170k paid accounts as announced by CCP just recently. Anecdotal: When EVE had roughly 125,000 subscriptions their online average was right around 20 to 25,000 players at peak time... Interestingly enough if you looked at the numbers for DAOC (Another MMO that is, thankfully, open about their online numbers) when DAOC was boasting 125k subscribers they were ALSO right around 20 to 25,000 players online at peak time.
So I would say that the number of people "multiboxing" in EVE isn't really any different than any other MMORPG out there. Every MMO has multi-boxers. EQ2, EQ1, WoW, EVE, SWG all of them do. So arguing about how many accounts are '1 guy paying for 3' or not is pointless. It's a common activity across all MMORPG games. Every game has multi-boxers and it's evidently that it's likely roughly the same percentage of the playerbase in each.
So who cares? 170,000 subscriptions is how many accounts EVE currently has "actively paid". Just like 125,000 subscriptions is the number of accounts DAOC currently has which are 'actively paid'. Just like SWG has roughly 110,000 'actively paid' accounts. And just like WoW has between 6.5 and 7 million accounts "actively paid".
And what does it matter how many people are playing those 30k characters? They're all online, all using system resources. Regardless of WHO is playing them there are 30,000 accounts logged in using the system. By that math, given that we can safely guestimate that the same % of players in each game are multiboxing are you going to say that X% of players in WOW don't count on their servers because "they're multiboxing"? No, you're not. So it's a moot point.
Also, I would dispute your claim that EVE encourages multi-boxing. specifically because you aren't limited in any way as to what skills you can learn there's no reason why you would NEED an alt to do things. You don't NEED a 2nd account to be a miner unless you just WANT to do it quicker. Because your main character is perfectly capable of training both for mining and for combat. It may take a little longer to get to the top tiers of skills in them that way but it IS possible and therefore many players will just train what they want. I know I do... and most folks in my corp are the same way. Sure there are a few folks that have a 2nd account for mining but for the most part we all just have whatever skills we want on our character. After all... multiboxing takes either a lot of workstation resources or a 2nd PC. Not something that many people have the luxury of having. Not to mention the whole "paying another $15 a month per account"
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
A paid subscriber is a paid subscriber, regardless of whether it's 1 person using 2 accounts or not. They still use the same amount of resources on the server.
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Minsc A paid subscriber is a paid subscriber, regardless of whether it's 1 person using 2 accounts or not. They still use the same amount of resources on the server.
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by Elnator What I'm arguing here is statistical FACT. EVE has been, and is, very successful. It has 170,000 PAID subscribers. It has 30,000 players (roughly) online at peak time. those are all easily verifiable facts.
The last time I checked, EVE had 140,000 paid accounts. 170,000 paid accounts would seem to agree with the trends in SirBruce's data.
But there is a difference between 170,000 subscriptions, and 170,000 subscribers. A big difference, considering the fact that the game design really justifies the second, third, and fourth account.
The box price is cheap ($20), alts can be levelled without having to grind, and the extra accounts allow the user to specialize in many useful things, and have ready access to the abilities. Its no wonder why nearly everyone I met had more than one account, or if they didn't, were going to get more. There is simply no good reason not to if you have the means to do it.
Now if there were 170,000 subscribers, my next question would be how many subscriptions are those 170,000 subscribers paying for? Only SirBruce and CCP know, but unless the game is toting 250,000-300,000 accounts, basically doubling the subscription numbers at lull between major content upgrades, it is highly unlikely the game boasts 170,000 paid subscribers. Moreover, if there are more than 30,000 characters online at one time, how many players are playing those 30,000 characters?
So while I'm open to being suprised, the notion that there are 170,000 people paying for EVE is a misrepresentation. It would be like saying I fed 170,000 people because I sold 170,000 hotdogs. Seeing as many order two three, four, or five, the number of customers are much lower.
Does it matter? EVE has roughly 170,000 subscriptions/subscribers/whatever. 170k paid accounts as announced by CCP just recently. Anecdotal: When EVE had roughly 125,000 subscriptions their online average was right around 20 to 25,000 players at peak time... Interestingly enough if you looked at the numbers for DAOC (Another MMO that is, thankfully, open about their online numbers) when DAOC was boasting 125k subscribers they were ALSO right around 20 to 25,000 players online at peak time.
So I would say that the number of people "multiboxing" in EVE isn't really any different than any other MMORPG out there. Every MMO has multi-boxers. EQ2, EQ1, WoW, EVE, SWG all of them do. So arguing about how many accounts are '1 guy paying for 3' or not is pointless. It's a common activity across all MMORPG games. Every game has multi-boxers and it's evidently that it's likely roughly the same percentage of the playerbase in each.
So who cares? 170,000 subscriptions is how many accounts EVE currently has "actively paid". Just like 125,000 subscriptions is the number of accounts DAOC currently has which are 'actively paid'. Just like SWG has roughly 110,000 'actively paid' accounts. And just like WoW has between 6.5 and 7 million accounts "actively paid".
And what does it matter how many people are playing those 30k characters? They're all online, all using system resources. Regardless of WHO is playing them there are 30,000 accounts logged in using the system. By that math, given that we can safely guestimate that the same % of players in each game are multiboxing are you going to say that X% of players in WOW don't count on their servers because "they're multiboxing"? No, you're not. So it's a moot point.
Also, I would dispute your claim that EVE encourages multi-boxing. specifically because you aren't limited in any way as to what skills you can learn there's no reason why you would NEED an alt to do things. You don't NEED a 2nd account to be a miner unless you just WANT to do it quicker. Because your main character is perfectly capable of training both for mining and for combat. It may take a little longer to get to the top tiers of skills in them that way but it IS possible and therefore many players will just train what they want. I know I do... and most folks in my corp are the same way. Sure there are a few folks that have a 2nd account for mining but for the most part we all just have whatever skills we want on our character. After all... multiboxing takes either a lot of workstation resources or a 2nd PC. Not something that many people have the luxury of having. Not to mention the whole "paying another $15 a month per account"
I think the number of accounts relative to the number of subscribers can matter, and its a question that we need to ponder when we see the number, and understand what it is telling us.
170,000 subscriptions says something quite different than 170,000 subscribers. It is, quite frankly, deceptive to use the two terms interchangeably, which is what CCP did. Part of CCP's success is due in part to their ability to manipulate language and numbers convincingly.
Similarly, if the number of accounts rose 30,000, what is accounting for the growth? New player interest, or an increased interest in those who are already players? If it is both, then what is the relative proportion for both sources of growth?
Now as I see it, the reasons people multibox in games has to do with several factors. You have to make it worth getting a second box in terms of opportunity cost. Yes, I can have 20 characters on a realm in WoW with two accounts, but then again, seeing as I have ten already per realm, and 50 overall just on a lone account, its just not worth it.
In EVE, you can only train one character, and the training in some cases takes months of waiting. The only way to get a second character training is to get a second account, and start that character on a training regemen. Seeing as how characters take months to develop, and how specialization plays such a key role, the opportunity cost for an extra box for EVE is well worth the gains, if you want to have two specialists at your disposal, rather than just one.
There is a lot of activity that doesn't require a full time presence in the gameworld. Take manufacturing, research, and corp management. You can play with your main and level up your alts without ever needing to run a second instance. The realtime, offline skill training system means that for a relatively cheap initial price, new players can catch up fast by doing with two or more characters what a more established veteran can do with one. Its a pretty good solution to the problems of character progression from a new player standpoint, as well as for veterans who recognize a need that do not fit in with their main's plans for progression.
In other games, you actually have to logon, and grind your multibox accounts for them to be useful. Oftentimes taking up system resources, and requiring the use of AFK macros. However, EVE does the grinding for you without having to run a second instance just to grind.
That is the real appeal of alts in EVE. You don't see it so much in terms of combat skills, but the nice thing about multiboxing in EVE is that you can focus training on combat only, and leave things like mining, manufacturing, research, corp administration, trading and refining to other alts, who can become very effective, very quickly. Most of the things don't require anything more than a few processes that can be done in five minutes or less (loading research slots, loading minerals, refining stacks of things, updating the corp with the new skills of the CEO, etc), and seeing as you have other accounts to really fly missions and such, you can just set a regemen that is industry or science only.
So there is good reason for me to suspect that a high percentage of those 170,000 accounts are second, third, or fourth accounts (some have more than ten accounts). I wouldn't say that if the game didn't make multiboxing so appealing. But seeing as it takes so much time to train skills, how training some skills mutually excludes the training of more diverse skills, and you can only have one character train on one server for one box fee, it makes a lot more sense to multi in EVE than in say, DAOC, WoW, or even SWG.
Which is why we do it in EVE, and why I think the total number of subscribers are roughly half the number of subscriptions. Which doesn't make EVE bad. In fact, I think it says a lot about how comitted the fans are to EVE, and making the most out of it.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Minsc A paid subscriber is a paid subscriber, regardless of whether it's 1 person using 2 accounts or not. They still use the same amount of resources on the server.
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
WTF are you talking about? Last time they mentioned it I think they said about 10% of the playerbase had multiple accounts. So where did you pull this 'everybody 2boxes' statistic out of? Besides your ass?
Originally posted by Aedosen Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by Minsc A paid subscriber is a paid subscriber, regardless of whether it's 1 person using 2 accounts or not. They still use the same amount of resources on the server.
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
REYKJAVIK, ICELAND - AUGUST 16, 2006 -- CCP, creator of MMOG EVE Online with 170,000 subscribers worldwide, will launch a German version of EVE Online at the Games Convention in Leipzig, Germany, August 24-27, 2006. The German client will be the first localized version of the EVE Online client on the Tranquility cluster. Visitors to the Games Convention are welcomed to view the first showing of the German EVE Online client in the CCP stand B05 in Hall 5 of the Leipziger Messe.
In answer to your question.... "Why the recent growth?" Answer: Same reason I'm playing: The demise of SWG EVE is the only other GOOD Sci-Fi MMORPG on the market that is also a Sandbox.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by ssstupido Originally posted by Gameloading ________ is famous because its easy to reach, its everywhere, and its popular among little children.
this is a new game. fill in the missing word.
Mmmmm.... Animal Crossing ? :") My daughter loves that stupid game on her DS
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Aedosen Originally posted by Beatnik59
Originally posted by Minsc A paid subscriber is a paid subscriber, regardless of whether it's 1 person using 2 accounts or not. They still use the same amount of resources on the server.
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
REYKJAVIK, ICELAND - AUGUST 16, 2006 -- CCP, creator of MMOG EVE Online with 170,000 subscribers worldwide, will launch a German version of EVE Online at the Games Convention in Leipzig, Germany, August 24-27, 2006. The German client will be the first localized version of the EVE Online client on the Tranquility cluster. Visitors to the Games Convention are welcomed to view the first showing of the German EVE Online client in the CCP stand B05 in Hall 5 of the Leipziger Messe.
In answer to your question.... "Why the recent growth?" Answer: Same reason I'm playing: The demise of SWG EVE is the only other GOOD Sci-Fi MMORPG on the market that is also a Sandbox. 142k according to recent dev blog
170,000 according to a recent EVE Developer Interview Sorry I don't have a link, however. I'll go hunting
REYKJAVIK, ICELAND - AUGUST 16, 2006 -- CCP, creator of MMOG EVE Online with 170,000 subscribers worldwide, will launch a German version of EVE Online at the Games Convention in Leipzig, Germany, August 24-27, 2006. The German client will be the first localized version of the EVE Online client on the Tranquility cluster. Visitors to the Games Convention are welcomed to view the first showing of the German EVE Online client in the CCP stand B05 in Hall 5 of the Leipziger Messe.
In answer to your question.... "Why the recent growth?" Answer: Same reason I'm playing: The demise of SWG EVE is the only other GOOD Sci-Fi MMORPG on the market that is also a Sandbox.
So you are saying that you honestly believe that 170,000 individual consumers subscribe to EVE Online, simply because CCP says so?
Again, how many subscriptions are these 170,000 subscribers playing? As of June 2006, SirBruce stated that there were about 125,000 accounts on MMORPGchart.
More suprising is how 170,000 individual subscribers can play using only 142,000 accounts, as stated in the blog that was quoted which went to post on September 1st:
"When E-ON first came into being, EVE Online boasted something around 57,000 subscribers… I think. While I can’t be too sure on the numbers, but the number of active subscriptions was certainly far below the 140,000 figure that was recently announced to the world. (142k now. ~kieron) ..."
The reason I bring this all up, is because if it were any other game, in any other company, the fan community would nail their gonads to the wall.
Yet, when EVE and CCP throw out figures, they are accepted as gospel, even when there is no possible way they can work. People tend to accept whatever Oveur, Kieron, and TomB throw at them without ever considering that these people could be distorting the truth, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
When I am talking rapid growth, I am talking growth within the last few weeks (since the close of June) of over 70-80%, almost a full year after the SWG diaspora, which would constitute the largest subscription increase in EVE history, for no apparent cause. Its not like these last two months were any more interesting than the two months before. In fact, the last few months have been some of the more bland, and buggy, as far as development is concerned. Some growth I can accept. The largest growth in the history of EVE (which is what it would take to make the 170,000 individual consumers statistic work) is something I need independent verification to accept.
If CCP were telling the truth in that 170,000 individual consumers are subscribed to EVE Online, then how is it that as of September 1st, there were only 142,000 subscriptions to EVE Online? You'd think that there'd be more subscriptions, something on the order of 250k-300k, to satisfy 170,000 subscribers.
The numbers don't add up, and there is some question as to why they can't just tell the truth, instead of making it seem like something it is not? Do they have something to hide, and if they do not, then what is the reason for calling subscription totals, subscriber totals other than to make the term look like something it obviously is not? Its obvious that someone, be it Bergsson, Oveur, Kieron, or Zapatero is lying, or at the very least, spinning the truth.
To be fair, a lot of other providers do this kind of thing too. But they don't get a "free pass," and an automatic stamp of legitimacy like CCP and EVE does. Remember first and foremost that CCP is an MMO provider, and info from the MMO providers need to be taken with a grain of salt in even the best of circumstances.
PS: I understand how the EVE posse here thinks I'm an EVE hater. To tell you the truth, if someone like me said this sort of thing about SWG back when I played, I would say they were worthless trolls too. I back then, like them today, felt that SOE had no reason to lie or distort the truth. It didn't change the fact that they did do just that, and it started with small things.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
WTF are you talking about? Last time they mentioned it I think they said about 10% of the playerbase had multiple accounts. So where did you pull this 'everybody 2boxes' statistic out of? Besides your ass?
Where is this "last time," and what leads them to believe that 10% of players have multiple accounts?
Was this before their "Power of Two" promotion, or after?
Was this before Red Moon Rising, or after?
Did they pull that figure out of their ass too? Like the 170,000 subscribers subscribed to 142,000 accounts figure? How are the 30,000 accountless subscribers playing?
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Beatnik, you, sir, need the patented Tinfoil Hat™.
-chuckles-
Seriously, CCP has no reason to inflate their subscription numbers. What would be the benefit? It wouldn't result in greater income for them, as you need REAL subscriptions for that. It wouldn't set any new records, as CCP's subscription numbers are nowhere near WoW's. The only record CCP can set in regards to their customer base is the number of users playing simultaneously on the same server cluster.
In regards to "multiboxing ", I know of no one in my current corp who does that. In my previous corp, we had one person out of 100 members who multiboxed; in the corp before that, two out of 120 members multiboxed. While I'm sure that some corps have a higher percentage of multiboxers, it's unlikely that they make up more than a small percentage of EVE's total subscription base.
-Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Originally posted by Wrayeth Beatnik, you, sir, need the patented Tinfoil Hat™. -chuckles- Seriously, CCP has no reason to inflate their subscription numbers. What would be the benefit? It wouldn't result in greater income for them, as you need REAL subscriptions for that. It wouldn't set any new records, as CCP's subscription numbers are nowhere near WoW's. The only record CCP can set in regards to their customer base is the number of users playing simultaneously on the same server cluster. In regards to "multiboxing ", I know of no one in my current corp who does that. In my previous corp, we had one person out of 100 members who multiboxed; in the corp before that, two out of 120 members multiboxed. While I'm sure that some corps have a higher percentage of multiboxers, it's unlikely that they make up more than a small percentage of EVE's total subscription base.
You can say that 170,000 subscribers subscribed to 142,000 subscriptions is no evidence of a conspiracy. Then again, why can't they just give us the subscription number in a way that is unambiguous, and clear?
Better yet, don't talk about subscribers or subscriptions at all. If it doesn't matter, then there is no reason for them to keep throwing out numbers whether people ask them about it, or not.
Whereas you say that there is no reason for a provider like CCP to inflate subscription numbers, I would argue that there is no reason for a provider like CCP to not inflate subscription numbers. Its not like they are going to get in trouble with a distributor or a publisher for not being up front and honest about the product's viability. The only ones they need to deal with are the consumers, and frankly, consumers don't need to know the truth, since they are going to be paying money in any case, the only difference being how much money are they willing to pay beyond $20.
Even if its an unsatisfactory product that doesn't live up to the billing, a business model like CCP gets $20 worth of easy money. Get all 7 million of WoW's subscribers to pay the entry fee, and its $140 million dollars. Not bad for throwing out a few numbers, and a few spins around the fansite circuit. They don't even have to pay people like Battleclinic to make them money. You are glad to do it just for perhaps an exclusive interview, a "thank you" card, or a few gratis timecodes for your staff, which really don't cost a business model like CCP any more than what they'd otherwise be doing in any event.
Yet they do, and I think they make a big deal out of it to get a free, non-refundable $20 from as many people as they can. Its not like they actually have to go through retail, or pay for printing costs. The point is to get $20, and if people are willing to pay another $15 after that, its a bonus. If not, just keep saying whatever will get someone else to fork over $20. If saying, "we are growing at a fast rate, and have 170,000 subscribers currently" gets you $20 you wouldn't get otherwise, then say it. Nobody has any legal or financial obligation to know the truth, so there is no point in giving the truth, unless the truth happens to work.
If saying to the people, "we aren't in it for the money, we are here for the love" gets you $20 that you otherwise wouldn't get, why not say it? Its not like it matters once you get the $20. If saying to the long timers, "we are loyal to you just like you are loyal to us" gets them forking over more money, then say that. Its not like those words really have to matter once you decide to shut off the game. Its not like they have to put forth any overhead to get the product in the hands of the consumer. The very overhead that maintains the game also distributes the game.
When you have a business model like EVE is based upon, there is no real penalty for bending the truth. Its not like the boxes are going to end up in the clearence asile, and its not like the product is going to fail to move. There is no voice at the retail counter to steer consumers toward or away from the game. In short, there is no oversight, and no body with a vested interest to keep the provider honest. Information about the truth of what is going on with the game is whatever the provider says it is, and consumers have to take it upon faith that what they are saying is correct. Better still to get the consumers to overlook your mistakes, forgive your lies, and defend your failings.
Friends forgive friends after all, so it pays to give forth the impression that you are not a provider of an online service, but a friend, or "one of the guys." No need to act all stuffy and professional at E3, because there is no professional relationship between CCP and the subscribers. Open up a bar and have drinks like friends do, so that when you have to delay Kali, you can understand like friends do. Do a promotional stunt for your players showing that we are all one happy community sitting on the same couch talking about the alliance championships. Make it seem as if the people are more than $20 to you, so they won't care about their $20 initial, and $15 extra.
So then, why am I explaining all of this? Because there is no retailer that is going to know the truth. There is no fansite or player webpage that has any vested interest in giving me the truth. And seeing as how CCP gets my $20 initial whether they are telling me the truth or not, its not like they really care. If this sort of stuff keeps me away, then they'll simply cast their fishing nets for more $20 bills, until the pickings get slim, and then they'll just pack up the good ship, close down, and say, "you were all swell, thank you."
Because when it is all said and done, there is no difference between CCP and anyone else in this business, except for one thing. CCP is able to put forth the notion that they do not sell online games, but are partners in filling a spiritual void.
Its strange how EVE looks less like an online game, and more like a church, except the fundamental mysteries have changed from "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin," to, "how can 170,000 subscribers play on 142,000 subscriptions." People defend it like a church. They offer up their time and finances to evangelize without compensation. They defend it from blastphemy.
Personally though, I'll save my faith for eternal truths, not online services.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Interesting, I hadn't really thought about it but it makes sense, abd it's obvious to anyone not in the cult that the 170,000 subscribers number is BS (how many subscriptions are there if it's not?). I think most people are just annoyed because the EVE nutballs have to make some announcement about EVE basically every day (look! 236 more logins than last time we posted a count! OMG! There's a magazine article about EVE, stop the press... well, start a thread!), but it's interesting to realize that they're probably just hoping people blow $20 before giving up on it.
Originally posted by Pantastic Interesting, I hadn't really thought about it but it makes sense, abd it's obvious to anyone not in the cult that the 170,000 subscribers number is BS (how many subscriptions are there if it's not?). I think most people are just annoyed because the EVE nutballs have to make some announcement about EVE basically every day (look! 236 more logins than last time we posted a count! OMG! There's a magazine article about EVE, stop the press... well, start a thread!), but it's interesting to realize that they're probably just hoping people blow $20 before giving up on it.
Well whatever the actual current numbers, Sir Bruce's figures on Eve have shown steady growth over the years. I'm pretty sure Eve is still growing. The concurrent numbers are shown to all Eve user at login, so unless CCP is lying or the software/hardware is wrong the 30k number is probably accurate. The 170k number seemes like quite a jump but I am fairly certain Eve is still growing. All the data points in that direction.
If one was to make the assumption that the numbers here are correct (i.e. not made up and actually pulled from some DB query), then the discrepancy could be explained away by saying that there are 170,000 active accounts, and only 140,000 active subscriptions, the missing 30,000 being active trials. I don't have enough experience to say for sure, but having 18% of a player base currently being on a trial sounds reasonable to me. Remember that different people here reported these numbers - I doubt they sat down to discuss the legal definitions of subscriptions, subscribers, and accounts before posting their news.
Originally posted by gestalt11 The 170k number seemes like quite a jump but I am fairly certain Eve is still growing. All the data points in that direction.
The 170k subscribers claim is clearly just made up. If there really are 170,000 people with active subscriptions, then how many subscriptions are they up to now and why not use that even more impressive number? And how did they manage to go from 142k subscriptions (so under 142k subscribers) to 170k subscribers in, what, 1 week?
Comments
Seriously, which would you rather:
A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever.
or
A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Seriously, which would you rather:
A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever.
or
A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer
yay! the flawed Mcdonalds theory again.
MCdonalds is famous because its easy to reach, its everywhere, and its popular among little children.
When you look for a fastfood restaurant, you look something thats close to your position. MCdonalds is close to everywhere. this does not count for WoW. you think which mmorpg you will buy first.
You can't compare the fastfood business to the gaming business. they work diffrent, period.
also, McDonalds IS one of the best FASTFOOD restaurants.
Seriously, which would you rather:
A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever.
or
A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer
yay! the flawed Mcdonalds theory again.
MCdonalds is famous because its easy to reach, its everywhere, and its popular among little children.
When you look for a fastfood restaurant, you look something thats close to your position. MCdonalds is close to everywhere. this does not count for WoW. you think which mmorpg you will buy first.
You can't compare the fastfood business to the gaming business. they work diffrent, period.
also, McDonalds IS one of the best FASTFOOD restaurants.
I would argue that Hardees is far superior... better burgers.. better variety on the menu.....
Fewer locations
The McDonalds analogy is not *really* flawed unless you're taking it 100% literally (which is silly).
WoW drew in NON MMORPG gamers to the genre. It drew on an ENORMOUS Warcraft fanbase as well as a HUGE game developer name. SOE may be well known in the MMO genre but in the normal 'gaming' market 'at large' they really aren't all that well known. They don't produce anything but MMO's so nobody outside the MMO gaming community really knows who they are.
Same for Turbine
Same for Mythic
WoW had several things going for it that really catapulted it to where it is:
- Timing.... a lot of stale MMO games were on the market and a flawed EQ2 launch left a lot of former EQ1 players pissed.
- Timing.... In the regular computer game market we've been in a bit of a slump for quality RPG's recentlly as well. KOTORII wasn't very good and Vampire: Bloodlines.... is a niche market game. Other than those nothing really BIG in the normal gaming market was available at the time WoW released.
- Name.... Warcraft is a HUGE name in the gaming industry. EVERYONE who plays video games has at least heard of warcraft if not played one of those games.
- Name.... Blizzard.... need I say more? Name a game company (other than BioWare) with a better rep in the gaming industry
- Quality.... While WoW isn't the BEST game on the market, feature for feature, it was the most well DONE MMO on the market in the feature set it chose to use. It was *relatively* bug free. No huge show stoppers. Fairly stable... Nothing spectacular but nothing that would drive a new player away screaming in anger (unlike many MMO launches that any of us can easilly remember)
- Quantity.... It had plenty of content for players to chew through for the first 60 levels. Blizzard did a great job of making sure what was in the game WORKED and that there was plenty of it to last a while.
EQ2, even if it had been a huge success at release, would never have reached WoW's numbers.... no matter what. It had, at best, 3 of the 6 factors WoW had. While EQ was relatively well known in the MMO market most Single player gamers already knew about it and had decided EverQuest wasn't their thing. So EQ2 wouldn't really have drawn much attention from them. World of Warcraft, however, being based on the Warcraft name.... would.So while the McDonald's analogy is a bit trite it is TRUE:
WoW isn't necessarily a better GAME than other MMO's already on the market. It's just got a TON more visibility than anything else.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Seriously, which would you rather:
A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever.
or
A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer
I was being sarcastic...although not very effectively!
Unfortunetly there aren't any outback MMOGs either...so I've had to do without. And I ain't happy about that!
Seriously, which would you rather:
A night out with your gf/wife/bf for dinner at something like Ruth's Chris or Lone Star or Outback or whatever.
or
A night out at McDonalds
I know which I'd prefer
yay! the flawed Mcdonalds theory again.
MCdonalds is famous because its easy to reach, its everywhere, and its popular among little children.
When you look for a fastfood restaurant, you look something thats close to your position. MCdonalds is close to everywhere. this does not count for WoW. you think which mmorpg you will buy first.
You can't compare the fastfood business to the gaming business. they work diffrent, period.
also, McDonalds IS one of the best FASTFOOD restaurants.
I would argue that Hardees is far superior... better burgers.. better variety on the menu.....
Fewer locations
The McDonalds analogy is not *really* flawed unless you're taking it 100% literally (which is silly).
WoW drew in NON MMORPG gamers to the genre. It drew on an ENORMOUS Warcraft fanbase as well as a HUGE game developer name. SOE may be well known in the MMO genre but in the normal 'gaming' market 'at large' they really aren't all that well known. They don't produce anything but MMO's so nobody outside the MMO gaming community really knows who they are.
Although I fully agree that World of Warcraft most likely pulled a lot of non-mmorpg players, nobody really knows how much experienced MMO players are currently playing WoW. from my experience, there are actually quite a lot of mmorpg vets playing World of Warcraft. and still even if only 400k of those 6.5 million players are mmorpg veterans, that is STILL more then any other mmorpg.
Same for Turbine
Same for Mythic
WoW had several things going for it that really catapulted it to where it is:
- Timing.... a lot of stale MMO games were on the market and a flawed EQ2 launch left a lot of former EQ1 players pissed.
- Timing.... In the regular computer game market we've been in a bit of a slump for quality RPG's recentlly as well. KOTORII wasn't very good and Vampire: Bloodlines.... is a niche market game. Other than those nothing really BIG in the normal gaming market was available at the time WoW released.
- Name.... Warcraft is a HUGE name in the gaming industry. EVERYONE who plays video games has at least heard of warcraft if not played one of those games.
- Name.... Blizzard.... need I say more? Name a game company (other than BioWare) with a better rep in the gaming industry
- Quality.... While WoW isn't the BEST game on the market, feature for feature, it was the most well DONE MMO on the market in the feature set it chose to use. It was *relatively* bug free. No huge show stoppers. Fairly stable... Nothing spectacular but nothing that would drive a new player away screaming in anger (unlike many MMO launches that any of us can easilly remember)
- Quantity.... It had plenty of content for players to chew through for the first 60 levels. Blizzard did a great job of making sure what was in the game WORKED and that there was plenty of it to last a while.
EQ2, even if it had been a huge success at release, would never have reached WoW's numbers.... no matter what. It had, at best, 3 of the 6 factors WoW had. While EQ was relatively well known in the MMO market most Single player gamers already knew about it and had decided EverQuest wasn't their thing. So EQ2 wouldn't really have drawn much attention from them. World of Warcraft, however, being based on the Warcraft name.... would.So while the McDonald's analogy is a bit trite it is TRUE:
WoW isn't necessarily a better GAME than other MMO's already on the market. It's just got a TON more visibility than anything else.
Imo, its not really the 6.5 million mark that proves WoW is the best, although it does say something about its quality.. its simply the mmorpg with the most awards, and the highest review average.
The last time I checked, EVE had 140,000 paid accounts. 170,000 paid accounts would seem to agree with the trends in SirBruce's data.
But there is a difference between 170,000 subscriptions, and 170,000 subscribers. A big difference, considering the fact that the game design really justifies the second, third, and fourth account.
The box price is cheap ($20), alts can be levelled without having to grind, and the extra accounts allow the user to specialize in many useful things, and have ready access to the abilities. Its no wonder why nearly everyone I met had more than one account, or if they didn't, were going to get more. There is simply no good reason not to if you have the means to do it.
Now if there were 170,000 subscribers, my next question would be how many subscriptions are those 170,000 subscribers paying for? Only SirBruce and CCP know, but unless the game is toting 250,000-300,000 accounts, basically doubling the subscription numbers at lull between major content upgrades, it is highly unlikely the game boasts 170,000 paid subscribers. Moreover, if there are more than 30,000 characters online at one time, how many players are playing those 30,000 characters?
So while I'm open to being suprised, the notion that there are 170,000 people paying for EVE is a misrepresentation. It would be like saying I fed 170,000 people because I sold 170,000 hotdogs. Seeing as many order two three, four, or five, the number of customers are much lower.
Multiboxing is common in ALL MMO's and from the info provided by CCP it's a small portion of the playerbase that has more than one account in the game anyways. A paid subscriber is a paid subscriber, regardless of whether it's 1 person using 2 accounts or not. They still use the same amount of resources on the server.
The last time I checked, EVE had 140,000 paid accounts. 170,000 paid accounts would seem to agree with the trends in SirBruce's data.
But there is a difference between 170,000 subscriptions, and 170,000 subscribers. A big difference, considering the fact that the game design really justifies the second, third, and fourth account.
The box price is cheap ($20), alts can be levelled without having to grind, and the extra accounts allow the user to specialize in many useful things, and have ready access to the abilities. Its no wonder why nearly everyone I met had more than one account, or if they didn't, were going to get more. There is simply no good reason not to if you have the means to do it.
Now if there were 170,000 subscribers, my next question would be how many subscriptions are those 170,000 subscribers paying for? Only SirBruce and CCP know, but unless the game is toting 250,000-300,000 accounts, basically doubling the subscription numbers at lull between major content upgrades, it is highly unlikely the game boasts 170,000 paid subscribers. Moreover, if there are more than 30,000 characters online at one time, how many players are playing those 30,000 characters?
So while I'm open to being suprised, the notion that there are 170,000 people paying for EVE is a misrepresentation. It would be like saying I fed 170,000 people because I sold 170,000 hotdogs. Seeing as many order two three, four, or five, the number of customers are much lower.
Does it matter? EVE has roughly 170,000 subscriptions/subscribers/whatever. 170k paid accounts as announced by CCP just recently. Anecdotal: When EVE had roughly 125,000 subscriptions their online average was right around 20 to 25,000 players at peak time... Interestingly enough if you looked at the numbers for DAOC (Another MMO that is, thankfully, open about their online numbers) when DAOC was boasting 125k subscribers they were ALSO right around 20 to 25,000 players online at peak time.
So I would say that the number of people "multiboxing" in EVE isn't really any different than any other MMORPG out there. Every MMO has multi-boxers. EQ2, EQ1, WoW, EVE, SWG all of them do. So arguing about how many accounts are '1 guy paying for 3' or not is pointless. It's a common activity across all MMORPG games. Every game has multi-boxers and it's evidently that it's likely roughly the same percentage of the playerbase in each.
So who cares? 170,000 subscriptions is how many accounts EVE currently has "actively paid". Just like 125,000 subscriptions is the number of accounts DAOC currently has which are 'actively paid'. Just like SWG has roughly 110,000 'actively paid' accounts. And just like WoW has between 6.5 and 7 million accounts "actively paid".
And what does it matter how many people are playing those 30k characters? They're all online, all using system resources. Regardless of WHO is playing them there are 30,000 accounts logged in using the system. By that math, given that we can safely guestimate that the same % of players in each game are multiboxing are you going to say that X% of players in WOW don't count on their servers because "they're multiboxing"? No, you're not. So it's a moot point.
Also, I would dispute your claim that EVE encourages multi-boxing. specifically because you aren't limited in any way as to what skills you can learn there's no reason why you would NEED an alt to do things. You don't NEED a 2nd account to be a miner unless you just WANT to do it quicker. Because your main character is perfectly capable of training both for mining and for combat. It may take a little longer to get to the top tiers of skills in them that way but it IS possible and therefore many players will just train what they want. I know I do... and most folks in my corp are the same way. Sure there are a few folks that have a 2nd account for mining but for the most part we all just have whatever skills we want on our character. After all... multiboxing takes either a lot of workstation resources or a 2nd PC. Not something that many people have the luxury of having. Not to mention the whole "paying another $15 a month per account"
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
142k according to recent dev blog
The last time I checked, EVE had 140,000 paid accounts. 170,000 paid accounts would seem to agree with the trends in SirBruce's data.
But there is a difference between 170,000 subscriptions, and 170,000 subscribers. A big difference, considering the fact that the game design really justifies the second, third, and fourth account.
The box price is cheap ($20), alts can be levelled without having to grind, and the extra accounts allow the user to specialize in many useful things, and have ready access to the abilities. Its no wonder why nearly everyone I met had more than one account, or if they didn't, were going to get more. There is simply no good reason not to if you have the means to do it.
Now if there were 170,000 subscribers, my next question would be how many subscriptions are those 170,000 subscribers paying for? Only SirBruce and CCP know, but unless the game is toting 250,000-300,000 accounts, basically doubling the subscription numbers at lull between major content upgrades, it is highly unlikely the game boasts 170,000 paid subscribers. Moreover, if there are more than 30,000 characters online at one time, how many players are playing those 30,000 characters?
So while I'm open to being suprised, the notion that there are 170,000 people paying for EVE is a misrepresentation. It would be like saying I fed 170,000 people because I sold 170,000 hotdogs. Seeing as many order two three, four, or five, the number of customers are much lower.
Does it matter? EVE has roughly 170,000 subscriptions/subscribers/whatever. 170k paid accounts as announced by CCP just recently. Anecdotal: When EVE had roughly 125,000 subscriptions their online average was right around 20 to 25,000 players at peak time... Interestingly enough if you looked at the numbers for DAOC (Another MMO that is, thankfully, open about their online numbers) when DAOC was boasting 125k subscribers they were ALSO right around 20 to 25,000 players online at peak time.
So I would say that the number of people "multiboxing" in EVE isn't really any different than any other MMORPG out there. Every MMO has multi-boxers. EQ2, EQ1, WoW, EVE, SWG all of them do. So arguing about how many accounts are '1 guy paying for 3' or not is pointless. It's a common activity across all MMORPG games. Every game has multi-boxers and it's evidently that it's likely roughly the same percentage of the playerbase in each.
So who cares? 170,000 subscriptions is how many accounts EVE currently has "actively paid". Just like 125,000 subscriptions is the number of accounts DAOC currently has which are 'actively paid'. Just like SWG has roughly 110,000 'actively paid' accounts. And just like WoW has between 6.5 and 7 million accounts "actively paid".
And what does it matter how many people are playing those 30k characters? They're all online, all using system resources. Regardless of WHO is playing them there are 30,000 accounts logged in using the system. By that math, given that we can safely guestimate that the same % of players in each game are multiboxing are you going to say that X% of players in WOW don't count on their servers because "they're multiboxing"? No, you're not. So it's a moot point.
Also, I would dispute your claim that EVE encourages multi-boxing. specifically because you aren't limited in any way as to what skills you can learn there's no reason why you would NEED an alt to do things. You don't NEED a 2nd account to be a miner unless you just WANT to do it quicker. Because your main character is perfectly capable of training both for mining and for combat. It may take a little longer to get to the top tiers of skills in them that way but it IS possible and therefore many players will just train what they want. I know I do... and most folks in my corp are the same way. Sure there are a few folks that have a 2nd account for mining but for the most part we all just have whatever skills we want on our character. After all... multiboxing takes either a lot of workstation resources or a 2nd PC. Not something that many people have the luxury of having. Not to mention the whole "paying another $15 a month per account"
I think the number of accounts relative to the number of subscribers can matter, and its a question that we need to ponder when we see the number, and understand what it is telling us.
170,000 subscriptions says something quite different than 170,000 subscribers. It is, quite frankly, deceptive to use the two terms interchangeably, which is what CCP did. Part of CCP's success is due in part to their ability to manipulate language and numbers convincingly.
Similarly, if the number of accounts rose 30,000, what is accounting for the growth? New player interest, or an increased interest in those who are already players? If it is both, then what is the relative proportion for both sources of growth?
Now as I see it, the reasons people multibox in games has to do with several factors. You have to make it worth getting a second box in terms of opportunity cost. Yes, I can have 20 characters on a realm in WoW with two accounts, but then again, seeing as I have ten already per realm, and 50 overall just on a lone account, its just not worth it.
In EVE, you can only train one character, and the training in some cases takes months of waiting. The only way to get a second character training is to get a second account, and start that character on a training regemen. Seeing as how characters take months to develop, and how specialization plays such a key role, the opportunity cost for an extra box for EVE is well worth the gains, if you want to have two specialists at your disposal, rather than just one.
There is a lot of activity that doesn't require a full time presence in the gameworld. Take manufacturing, research, and corp management. You can play with your main and level up your alts without ever needing to run a second instance. The realtime, offline skill training system means that for a relatively cheap initial price, new players can catch up fast by doing with two or more characters what a more established veteran can do with one. Its a pretty good solution to the problems of character progression from a new player standpoint, as well as for veterans who recognize a need that do not fit in with their main's plans for progression.
In other games, you actually have to logon, and grind your multibox accounts for them to be useful. Oftentimes taking up system resources, and requiring the use of AFK macros. However, EVE does the grinding for you without having to run a second instance just to grind.
That is the real appeal of alts in EVE. You don't see it so much in terms of combat skills, but the nice thing about multiboxing in EVE is that you can focus training on combat only, and leave things like mining, manufacturing, research, corp administration, trading and refining to other alts, who can become very effective, very quickly. Most of the things don't require anything more than a few processes that can be done in five minutes or less (loading research slots, loading minerals, refining stacks of things, updating the corp with the new skills of the CEO, etc), and seeing as you have other accounts to really fly missions and such, you can just set a regemen that is industry or science only.
So there is good reason for me to suspect that a high percentage of those 170,000 accounts are second, third, or fourth accounts (some have more than ten accounts). I wouldn't say that if the game didn't make multiboxing so appealing. But seeing as it takes so much time to train skills, how training some skills mutually excludes the training of more diverse skills, and you can only have one character train on one server for one box fee, it makes a lot more sense to multi in EVE than in say, DAOC, WoW, or even SWG.
Which is why we do it in EVE, and why I think the total number of subscribers are roughly half the number of subscriptions. Which doesn't make EVE bad. In fact, I think it says a lot about how comitted the fans are to EVE, and making the most out of it.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
WTF are you talking about? Last time they mentioned it I think they said about 10% of the playerbase had multiple accounts. So where did you pull this 'everybody 2boxes' statistic out of? Besides your ass?
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
142k according to recent dev blog
170,000 according to a recent EVE Developer Interview
Linkage
Excerpt: (Note the emphasized word)
REYKJAVIK, ICELAND - AUGUST 16, 2006 -- CCP, creator of MMOG EVE Online
with 170,000 subscribers worldwide, will launch a German version of EVE
Online at the Games Convention in Leipzig, Germany, August 24-27, 2006.
The German client will be the first localized version of the EVE Online
client on the Tranquility cluster. Visitors to the Games Convention are
welcomed to view the first showing of the German EVE Online client in
the CCP stand B05 in Hall 5 of the Leipziger Messe.
In answer to your question.... "Why the recent growth?"
Answer: Same reason I'm playing: The demise of SWG
EVE is the only other GOOD Sci-Fi MMORPG on the market that is also a Sandbox.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
Mmmmm.... Animal Crossing ? :") My daughter loves that stupid game on her DS
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
So then how many paid subscribers does EVE have?
Not 170,000. If it is 170,000, then the game just doubled in size.
142k according to recent dev blog
170,000 according to a recent EVE Developer Interview
Linkage
Excerpt: (Note the emphasized word)
REYKJAVIK, ICELAND - AUGUST 16, 2006 -- CCP, creator of MMOG EVE Online with 170,000 subscribers worldwide, will launch a German version of EVE Online at the Games Convention in Leipzig, Germany, August 24-27, 2006. The German client will be the first localized version of the EVE Online client on the Tranquility cluster. Visitors to the Games Convention are welcomed to view the first showing of the German EVE Online client in the CCP stand B05 in Hall 5 of the Leipziger Messe.
In answer to your question.... "Why the recent growth?"
Answer: Same reason I'm playing: The demise of SWG
EVE is the only other GOOD Sci-Fi MMORPG on the market that is also a Sandbox.
142k according to recent dev blog
170,000 according to a recent EVE Developer Interview
Linkage
Excerpt: (Note the emphasized word)
REYKJAVIK, ICELAND - AUGUST 16, 2006 -- CCP, creator of MMOG EVE Online with 170,000 subscribers worldwide, will launch a German version of EVE Online at the Games Convention in Leipzig, Germany, August 24-27, 2006. The German client will be the first localized version of the EVE Online client on the Tranquility cluster. Visitors to the Games Convention are welcomed to view the first showing of the German EVE Online client in the CCP stand B05 in Hall 5 of the Leipziger Messe.
In answer to your question.... "Why the recent growth?"
Answer: Same reason I'm playing: The demise of SWG
EVE is the only other GOOD Sci-Fi MMORPG on the market that is also a Sandbox.
So you are saying that you honestly believe that 170,000 individual consumers subscribe to EVE Online, simply because CCP says so?
Again, how many subscriptions are these 170,000 subscribers playing? As of June 2006, SirBruce stated that there were about 125,000 accounts on MMORPGchart.
More suprising is how 170,000 individual subscribers can play using only 142,000 accounts, as stated in the blog that was quoted which went to post on September 1st:
"When E-ON first came into being, EVE Online boasted something around 57,000 subscribers… I think. While I can’t be too sure on the numbers, but the number of active subscriptions was certainly far below the 140,000 figure that was recently announced to the world. (142k now. ~kieron) ..."
The reason I bring this all up, is because if it were any other game, in any other company, the fan community would nail their gonads to the wall.
Yet, when EVE and CCP throw out figures, they are accepted as gospel, even when there is no possible way they can work. People tend to accept whatever Oveur, Kieron, and TomB throw at them without ever considering that these people could be distorting the truth, whether intentionally or unintentionally.
When I am talking rapid growth, I am talking growth within the last few weeks (since the close of June) of over 70-80%, almost a full year after the SWG diaspora, which would constitute the largest subscription increase in EVE history, for no apparent cause. Its not like these last two months were any more interesting than the two months before. In fact, the last few months have been some of the more bland, and buggy, as far as development is concerned. Some growth I can accept. The largest growth in the history of EVE (which is what it would take to make the 170,000 individual consumers statistic work) is something I need independent verification to accept.
If CCP were telling the truth in that 170,000 individual consumers are subscribed to EVE Online, then how is it that as of September 1st, there were only 142,000 subscriptions to EVE Online? You'd think that there'd be more subscriptions, something on the order of 250k-300k, to satisfy 170,000 subscribers.
The numbers don't add up, and there is some question as to why they can't just tell the truth, instead of making it seem like something it is not? Do they have something to hide, and if they do not, then what is the reason for calling subscription totals, subscriber totals other than to make the term look like something it obviously is not? Its obvious that someone, be it Bergsson, Oveur, Kieron, or Zapatero is lying, or at the very least, spinning the truth.
To be fair, a lot of other providers do this kind of thing too. But they don't get a "free pass," and an automatic stamp of legitimacy like CCP and EVE does. Remember first and foremost that CCP is an MMO provider, and info from the MMO providers need to be taken with a grain of salt in even the best of circumstances.
PS: I understand how the EVE posse here thinks I'm an EVE hater. To tell you the truth, if someone like me said this sort of thing about SWG back when I played, I would say they were worthless trolls too. I back then, like them today, felt that SOE had no reason to lie or distort the truth. It didn't change the fact that they did do just that, and it started with small things.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Where is this "last time," and what leads them to believe that 10% of players have multiple accounts?
Was this before their "Power of Two" promotion, or after?
Was this before Red Moon Rising, or after?
Did they pull that figure out of their ass too? Like the 170,000 subscribers subscribed to 142,000 accounts figure? How are the 30,000 accountless subscribers playing?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Beatnik, you, sir, need the patented Tinfoil Hat™.
-chuckles-
Seriously, CCP has no reason to inflate their subscription numbers. What would be the benefit? It wouldn't result in greater income for them, as you need REAL subscriptions for that. It wouldn't set any new records, as CCP's subscription numbers are nowhere near WoW's. The only record CCP can set in regards to their customer base is the number of users playing simultaneously on the same server cluster.
In regards to "multiboxing ", I know of no one in my current corp who does that. In my previous corp, we had one person out of 100 members who multiboxed; in the corp before that, two out of 120 members multiboxed. While I'm sure that some corps have a higher percentage of multiboxers, it's unlikely that they make up more than a small percentage of EVE's total subscription base.
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
You can say that 170,000 subscribers subscribed to 142,000 subscriptions is no evidence of a conspiracy. Then again, why can't they just give us the subscription number in a way that is unambiguous, and clear?
Better yet, don't talk about subscribers or subscriptions at all. If it doesn't matter, then there is no reason for them to keep throwing out numbers whether people ask them about it, or not.
Whereas you say that there is no reason for a provider like CCP to inflate subscription numbers, I would argue that there is no reason for a provider like CCP to not inflate subscription numbers. Its not like they are going to get in trouble with a distributor or a publisher for not being up front and honest about the product's viability. The only ones they need to deal with are the consumers, and frankly, consumers don't need to know the truth, since they are going to be paying money in any case, the only difference being how much money are they willing to pay beyond $20.
Even if its an unsatisfactory product that doesn't live up to the billing, a business model like CCP gets $20 worth of easy money. Get all 7 million of WoW's subscribers to pay the entry fee, and its $140 million dollars. Not bad for throwing out a few numbers, and a few spins around the fansite circuit. They don't even have to pay people like Battleclinic to make them money. You are glad to do it just for perhaps an exclusive interview, a "thank you" card, or a few gratis timecodes for your staff, which really don't cost a business model like CCP any more than what they'd otherwise be doing in any event.
Yet they do, and I think they make a big deal out of it to get a free, non-refundable $20 from as many people as they can. Its not like they actually have to go through retail, or pay for printing costs. The point is to get $20, and if people are willing to pay another $15 after that, its a bonus. If not, just keep saying whatever will get someone else to fork over $20. If saying, "we are growing at a fast rate, and have 170,000 subscribers currently" gets you $20 you wouldn't get otherwise, then say it. Nobody has any legal or financial obligation to know the truth, so there is no point in giving the truth, unless the truth happens to work.
If saying to the people, "we aren't in it for the money, we are here for the love" gets you $20 that you otherwise wouldn't get, why not say it? Its not like it matters once you get the $20. If saying to the long timers, "we are loyal to you just like you are loyal to us" gets them forking over more money, then say that. Its not like those words really have to matter once you decide to shut off the game. Its not like they have to put forth any overhead to get the product in the hands of the consumer. The very overhead that maintains the game also distributes the game.
When you have a business model like EVE is based upon, there is no real penalty for bending the truth. Its not like the boxes are going to end up in the clearence asile, and its not like the product is going to fail to move. There is no voice at the retail counter to steer consumers toward or away from the game. In short, there is no oversight, and no body with a vested interest to keep the provider honest. Information about the truth of what is going on with the game is whatever the provider says it is, and consumers have to take it upon faith that what they are saying is correct. Better still to get the consumers to overlook your mistakes, forgive your lies, and defend your failings.
Friends forgive friends after all, so it pays to give forth the impression that you are not a provider of an online service, but a friend, or "one of the guys." No need to act all stuffy and professional at E3, because there is no professional relationship between CCP and the subscribers. Open up a bar and have drinks like friends do, so that when you have to delay Kali, you can understand like friends do. Do a promotional stunt for your players showing that we are all one happy community sitting on the same couch talking about the alliance championships. Make it seem as if the people are more than $20 to you, so they won't care about their $20 initial, and $15 extra.
So then, why am I explaining all of this? Because there is no retailer that is going to know the truth. There is no fansite or player webpage that has any vested interest in giving me the truth. And seeing as how CCP gets my $20 initial whether they are telling me the truth or not, its not like they really care. If this sort of stuff keeps me away, then they'll simply cast their fishing nets for more $20 bills, until the pickings get slim, and then they'll just pack up the good ship, close down, and say, "you were all swell, thank you."
Because when it is all said and done, there is no difference between CCP and anyone else in this business, except for one thing. CCP is able to put forth the notion that they do not sell online games, but are partners in filling a spiritual void.
Its strange how EVE looks less like an online game, and more like a church, except the fundamental mysteries have changed from "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin," to, "how can 170,000 subscribers play on 142,000 subscriptions." People defend it like a church. They offer up their time and finances to evangelize without compensation. They defend it from blastphemy.
Personally though, I'll save my faith for eternal truths, not online services.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Interesting, I hadn't really thought about it but it makes sense, abd it's obvious to anyone not in the cult that the 170,000 subscribers number is BS (how many subscriptions are there if it's not?). I think most people are just annoyed because the EVE nutballs have to make some announcement about EVE basically every day (look! 236 more logins than last time we posted a count! OMG! There's a magazine article about EVE, stop the press... well, start a thread!), but it's interesting to realize that they're probably just hoping people blow $20 before giving up on it.
If one was to make the assumption that the numbers here are correct (i.e. not made up and actually pulled from some DB query), then the discrepancy could be explained away by saying that there are 170,000 active accounts, and only 140,000 active subscriptions, the missing 30,000 being active trials. I don't have enough experience to say for sure, but having 18% of a player base currently being on a trial sounds reasonable to me. Remember that different people here reported these numbers - I doubt they sat down to discuss the legal definitions of subscriptions, subscribers, and accounts before posting their news.
The 170k subscribers claim is clearly just made up. If there really are 170,000 people with active subscriptions, then how many subscriptions are they up to now and why not use that even more impressive number? And how did they manage to go from 142k subscriptions (so under 142k subscribers) to 170k subscribers in, what, 1 week?
Ya heard