Originally posted by zypherant Hello all. I'm curious about what some people think. I come from EQ (So maybe right there is my problem) I'm retired now, but anyway, Raiding is what MMORPG is all about in my eyes. Soloing is pretty fun, but gets boring, grping also fun... But Raidng! How kick ass is it to take on a dragon where frigin 72 people come together and either own it or get owned.
Raiding is the antithesis of what an MMORPG is all about in my eyes. Most critically, it runs counter to the Game part - gaming is about doing something enjoyable, while raiding isn't. How many people who raid currently would raid at all if there were other options; are any of the people claiming to enjoy raiding on this forum willing to say they would keep raiding if raid loot was worse than what you could get in group content? Putting up with a bunch of loot whores and power-trippers to be able to brag about having better video game loot than other people isn't really a game, it's a cry for help.
Raiding certainly doesn't add anything to the RP part, raids are distinctly non-roleplaying environments in the traditional sense of the term, and as much stat collection as anything else in the CPRPG sense of the term. They do take place online, so I guess that's something. It actually runs counter to the Massively Multiplayer part; under 100 people is just a large LAN game, it doesn't really qualify as 'massive' until you get to thousands. Raiding tends to discourage people from interacting with the rest of the server, people generally just raid with their raid guild and often sneer at the idea of doing anything with people out of the guilld, which means the game really breaks down to something more like a NWN server than a real MMO for those people.
Plus raid mobs are always insanely stupid, it's like you're fighting in the monster special olympics. "Ohh, I'm a GOD! Therefore, when a big crowd of people hit me, I will concentrate all of my efforts on killing the guy in the heaviest armor who has all of those other guys throwing healing spells on him, I won't ever kill one of those guys that keeps him standing even though a casual punch would do it" Threat mechanics are fairly believeable when there's only half a dozen or so people, but it gets really silly when you have some big crowd of people and some ancient dragon or god only notices one of them.
And finally, I and most other people play RPG-type games to go off and be a great hero or great villain in an imaginary world, not to be some grunt or just a cog in a machine; I get enough of the feel of being a cog in a machine at work. But raiding is all about just being a grunt. I mean, how many novels or books are there that follow a group of 40 or 72 main characters accomplishing great deeds? You have a few major characters and a bunch of faceless grunts.
Why shouldnt there be better items for those who form and kill? What is the problem? All i hear is, only those who are in superior guilds get the best items so its not fair... So Step up and be one of the server best players so you can get in an uber guild and get some descent items.
This is a mistake raiders often make. Uber guilds are generally the worst guilds on the server, containing the server's worst players. Raid guilds take a bunch of loot whores and shove them together under basement dwellers who love petty power-tripping. You would have to pay me a whole lot of real world cash for me to want to put up with an uber guild, all of the video game loot in the (virtual) world wouldn't do it.
"Worst players? But look at the uber sword of uberness, and the uberlicious pants of ubering!" is a likely response, but I'm not talking about whether they have the best gear, I'm talking about whether they're the best players. Generally they're not fun to be around, they have poor social skills and mostly want to be admired for their uberifficness instead of just having a good time. They're generally not actually skilled at playing their character, just at going into a raid and hitting a couple of buttons on a pattern, which doesn't work as well in the non-raid areas. They're generally unreliable in the extreme, if you see raid gear on someone in a pickup group odds are they're going to bail on you halfway through 'uhh... my guild's calling me'. They're also the worst about arguing 'that gear is for X class' when loot drops.
"Worst guilds? But they've defeated the Uberboss of Uberton and the Ubermatic Ubermensch of Uberta!" is another likely response, but again it's irrelevant. I don't care what video game accomplishments you've made, what I want from a guild is a fun group of people to do stuff with. Raid guilds operate like a job, not a game - you have to commit to showing up every [certain days] for [certain block of time] and can't just decide not to play your game for a week or two without asking permission for fear of being fir... kicked. Typically, you even get paid an hourly rate in the form of DKP.
Now, I hear other people say that they like to get far on casual play, or they do not like to be grped they want the same chances by themselves... So I wonder, why do you even need the same kinda gear as those who raid if you are a solo nut anyway?... theres no need.
It's a video game, no one needs the game at all; you can live perfectly well without playing any MMORPG at all, as millennia of history and billions of people today prove. That menas that any argument based on "need" is just absurd, because no one needs anything in the game.
And those PvP lovers, i love PvP also, and I'm still a raid nut... I just really wish I understood the hatred. The best part of a MMORPG is the 8 hour prep to gank some PvE powerhouse. WHAT IS THE ISSUE! man I want to understand.
You don't love what I'd call real PVP, you just like beating up people weaker than you; you like having gear that gives you an "I WIN" button. If you loved what I'd call real PVP, you'd be complaining to the devs asking them to make it so that raid gear isn't any better than other gear, at least in PVP, so that you'd have good competition.
Raids place a bigger stress in the game with an unequal reward. If you get into a mmo and have to run raids to keep up with the rest of the server its a pain. Especialy when you watch small groups that were fun split apart for some of them to join the "uber" guild, some of them to join a laid back guild and be held back by it.
That and raids are a big impersonal routine mess. You do the same job every time and specialize in it, all of the encounters have a strategy copied off the internet into your clan/guild's forum and you follow them.
When there is a big screw up and your raid fails you as a single person can do nothing to stop it and you were probably doing your job perfectly. Or worse you slack at your job and it makes no difference giving you a big motivation to keep doing well and uplift your guild.
I don't wanna waste 6 hours sitting around (which is a large part of raids) hoping that something I need drops (which it might not) for a small chance to get it (with 6 other people who also want it) in order to be able to compete in the game.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
And just because I got started on the topic, the whole culture around raiding is just messed up. You can tell a lot about the people who raid by the comments they make, and they tend to be whiny brats who like pushing people around with what power they have in the game. It's pretty telling that raiders tend to laugh if someone talks about applying to multiple raid guilds, and that their guilds won't accept someone who does; it indicates that they don't really think their guild is good enough to attract someone, and that they want the satisfaction of making the prospective member say 'ohh yes, you're the best out there, I don't ever think of joining another' when really they probably just care about getting access to the content and loot.
It isn't that raid itself is hideous to me, it is everything necessary to raid.
Suddenly you have to start balancing a large group of people's schedules which is frustrating often. Now you have commitments in a game you started to relax and have fun, and people start playing alts or such because they burn out on their main. Even if you can get everyone together without any stumblings server hiccups and such can make any raid pure hell due to no fault of the groups.
Raids just amplify everything. Minor annoyances become major ones and it starts to build up and burn people out. I don't mind raiding, but I get frustrated when it is the ONLY way to actually progress in a game.
For me it's the timesink involved with raiding...and the general elitist attitude that goes along with it. Somehow, not having enough time to dedicate to raiding for hours on end in a video game equates to you being a n00b. I just can't help but laugh at this reasoning.
I mean, a decade ago when I was in highschool and had a ton of free time I used to raid in EQ1 quite often, but real life sets in shortly after, and along with it goes my raiding time.
A dev team needs to make raiding smaller (the 40-70 man shit is retarded and needs to go buh bye). The time needed to complete these "raids" shouldn't be more than 3 hours....2 if you don't wipe.
This site still does a pretty nice job at being a gathering spot forr such a subject.
I come from EQ (So maybe right there is my problem) I'm retired now, but anyway, Raiding is what MMORPG is all about in my eyes.
There it is! You have hit the crux of it all. You feel it is what "ALL" mmorpgs should be about. The thing many fail to recignize, is that there is a market for everything. There is a market for mmorpgs that have raiding. AND... there is a market for mmorpgs that do NOT have raiding. All there is to it.
Now, it might seem that many are against raiding at this here site. But think about this... mmorpg.com has roughly 1,000 people who have posted 20 times or more. And maybe 200 are super-regular posters. There are easily over 50,000 (fifty thousand) people who still play EQ. This is not counting multi-accounts).
Soloing is pretty fun, but gets boring,
Again, there is a market for everything. Many times soloing is better because it saves more time. Player Joe, who used to be a hardcore gamer with 8-16 hours free time to play......, is now married, with wife, kids, and full time job. He only has 2-4 hours free time to play. IF he groups, he is stuck relying on everyone else to not flub up! And cause a wipe... which would mean ALL the hours spent on whatever quest/adventure is... wasted. Which means his play time gets w-a-s-t-e-d.
When He solo's, he relys on himself. Because he is an experienced gamer, he almost never gets killed. Which means his play time does not get wasted.
There is a market for solo, AND a market for grouping.
I will say this much though : ALL mmorpgs should (and so far do) have an in game economy that influences every sinlge player. No matter if they solo all the time or group all the time, or mix of both types of playstyles. grping also fun... But Raidng! How kick ass is it to take on a dragon where frigin 72 people come together and either own it or get owned.
For someone with limited playtime, if the group gets 'owned' aka wiped, it means they have wasted all their free playing time. Not because of something they did, but because of something 1 out of the 72 other players did. Now, if one has tons of free time, then it's less of a sting if the raid group gets owned. They have plenty of free time to re-make the money to repaire armor, to re-purchase the potions used, etc... etc...
Why shouldnt there be better items for those who form and kill? What is the problem?
Sloooow down. Now you are bringing up an entirely different subect. Aka casual players vs. hardcore players. Players with limited free time vs players with insane free time. This is a whole new subject, for a whole new thread. Should players with limited time have access to the same items as players with near unlimted free time... etc... etc...
All i hear is, only those who are in superior guilds get the best items so its not fair...
Where do you hear this? Please post links. Please name names. Next, who cares? Find the mmorpg YOU enjoy and have fun. 200 or so people posting on mmorpg.com about they dislike means nothing IF the mmorpg you like is doing well. So Step up and be one of the server best players so you can get in an uber guild and get some descent items.
This is your solution to a problem you see? I will give you credit for at least trying to come up with a solution, instead of just posting about the problem then running away. Now, I hear other people say that they like to get far on casual play, or they do not like to be grped they want the same chances by themselves... So I wonder, why do you even need the same kinda gear as those who raid if you are a solo nut anyway?...
All players need the best gear possible in order to survive the game. No matter if it is vs. NPCs, or PvP. And again, please post links to where you see these tons of people who demand to get just as far on solo play as players who group? Who demand the same uber power to be infused into their 1 solo character that an entire group of players have combined?
theres no need. And those PvP lovers, i love PvP also, and I'm still a raid nut... I just really wish I understood the hatred. The best part of a MMORPG is the 8 hour prep to gank some PvE powerhouse. WHAT IS THE ISSUE! man I want to understand.
Are you marrried? Do you have kids? Do you have a full time CAREER job? (Career meaning you put that job firrst before any computer game!). You might have tons of free time now.... 8 hours of just prep before even starting the actual battle might seem like nothihng to you. But ALL hardcore gamers sooner or later are forced to become casual gamers. Enjoy your tons of free time now! Enjoy the memories! Enjoy the fun you are having!
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by zypherant Hello all. I'm curious about what some people think. I come from EQ (So maybe right there is my problem) I'm retired now, but anyway, Raiding is what MMORPG is all about in my eyes. Soloing is pretty fun, but gets boring, grping also fun... But Raidng! How kick ass is it to take on a dragon where frigin 72 people come together and either own it or get owned. Why shouldnt there be better items for those who form and kill? What is the problem? All i hear is, only those who are in superior guilds get the best items so its not fair... So Step up and be one of the server best players so you can get in an uber guild and get some descent items. Now, I hear other people say that they like to get far on casual play, or they do not like to be grped they want the same chances by themselves... So I wonder, why do you even need the same kinda gear as those who raid if you are a solo nut anyway?... theres no need. And those PvP lovers, i love PvP also, and I'm still a raid nut... I just really wish I understood the hatred. The best part of a MMORPG is the 8 hour prep to gank some PvE powerhouse. WHAT IS THE ISSUE! man I want to understand.
When reading a Fantasy novel, how many people does it take to slay that dragon? That's right, only one.
You bring up an EXCELLENT point! ALL mmorpgs are based on/come from rpgs, which are based on/come from D&D, which is based on/comes from JRR Tolkien. Who in turn based his books on European folklore and myth. In ALL of it, epic monsters were slayed by 1 person to roughly 5 people!!! From the ultra-famous dragon in the book "The Hobbit" , to the rest of dragons, and epic monsters in Tolkens other works. To the epic monsters in the rest of Euro myths. Go back further to the roots of European myths - Egypt, the middle east, and same thing. It's always one hero who takes on an epic monster. At the MOST a group of 2-5.
(Like in the ancient story "Epic of Gilgamesh" Gilgamesh had an android/robot helper party up with him for most of his journey. (yeah, new can of wurms for a whole new subject. Robots and androids being talked about in ancient times more than 3,000+ years ago hahaha.) And even the super ancient tale "Siddartha" he did not form a raid group. Siddartha is one of the most oldest known adventure tales.
You are right that never was a "raid group" needed to defeat an epic monster. And that "raids" were only done to take over other lands, cities, countries, etc... Who decided raid groups would be needed?
Originally posted by Pantastic And just because I got started on the topic, the whole culture around raiding is just messed up. You can tell a lot about the people who raid by the comments they make, and they tend to be whiny brats who like pushing people around with what power they have in the game. It's pretty telling that raiders tend to laugh if someone talks about applying to multiple raid guilds, and that their guilds won't accept someone who does; it indicates that they don't really think their guild is good enough to attract someone, and that they want the satisfaction of making the prospective member say 'ohh yes, you're the best out there, I don't ever think of joining another' when really they probably just care about getting access to the content and loot.
But being part of the Raider Cult is so comforting!
WoW's success has nothing to do with the small MMO community.
It has to do with the fact that it drew heavily from traditional gamers (PC and Console). Gamers use to playing on restricted, linear gameplay fields. Its an incredible free and opened game to people who do not normally play MMO's. The original EQ, I'm not so sure on, it was a pioneer. They tried it and it worked out at the time.
You are 100% right that WoW's success has very little to do with the mmorpg players from the other past and present mmorpgs.
But... it's success is actually from a certain game that was a pioneer in internet gaming: Diablo 1. Diablo 1 led to Diablo 2.
99% of the game features in WoW are a direct import from Diablo 1 and 2. Endgame raiding over and over for better items? Yes EQ had it, but Diabo 1 and 2 had it. To the point where it was mandatory! I do not know which came out first - EQ or Diablo 2. But I am very sure Diablo 1 came out before EQ, and possibly before UO.
So the Blizzard fans have always been used to endgame raiding as a requirement. It is the mmorpg fans who are not as used to it. To Blizzard, it does not matter, because WoW was NOT made for existing mmorpg fans. WoW was made for the 15 MILLION plus existing Blizzard fans first. These 15+ million fans come from Diablo 2, and Diablo 1.
Originally posted by xplororor Originally posted by zypherant Hello all.
Hello ! I'm curious about what some people think.
This site still does a pretty nice job at being a gathering spot forr such a subject.
I come from EQ (So maybe right there is my problem) I'm retired now, but anyway, Raiding is what MMORPG is all about in my eyes.
There it is! You have hit the crux of it all. You feel it is what "ALL" mmorpgs should be about. The thing many fail to recignize, is that there is a market for everything. There is a market for mmorpgs that have raiding. AND... there is a market for mmorpgs that do NOT have raiding. All there is to it.
Its not surprising that someone from EQ thinks that raiding is what MMOs are all about but that is patently false and always has been. EQ did not originally have raids and many other game have none at DAoC has even released servers with no raids on them becasue many people dislike them so much.
Now, it might seem that many are against raiding at this here site. But think about this... mmorpg.com has roughly 1,000 people who have posted 20 times or more. And maybe 200 are super-regular posters. There are easily over 50,000 (fifty thousand) people who still play EQ. This is not counting multi-accounts).
I am not certain that these numbers are useful since xploror is comparing poster to players. Frankly i have no idea what conlcusion to draw from them.
Soloing is pretty fun, but gets boring,
Again, there is a market for everything. Many times soloing is better because it saves more time. Player Joe, who used to be a hardcore gamer with 8-16 hours free time to play......, is now married, with wife, kids, and full time job. He only has 2-4 hours free time to play. IF he groups, he is stuck relying on everyone else to not flub up! And cause a wipe... which would mean ALL the hours spent on whatever quest/adventure is... wasted. Which means his play time gets w-a-s-t-e-d.
When He solo's, he relys on himself. Because he is an experienced gamer, he almost never gets killed. Which means his play time does not get wasted.
There is a market for solo, AND a market for grouping.
I will say this much though : ALL mmorpgs should (and so far do) have an in game economy that influences every sinlge player. No matter if they solo all the time or group all the time, or mix of both types of playstyles. grping also fun... But Raidng! How kick ass is it to take on a dragon where frigin 72 people come together and either own it or get owned.
For someone with limited playtime, if the group gets 'owned' aka wiped, it means they have wasted all their free playing time. Not because of something they did, but because of something 1 out of the 72 other players did. Now, if one has tons of free time, then it's less of a sting if the raid group gets owned. They have plenty of free time to re-make the money to repaire armor, to re-purchase the potions used, etc... etc...
I would like to point out that solo play in most MMORPG is purposely made shallow and inferior to other play. Many class abilities are useless in solo and the the gameplay itself is repetitive and generally not that intersting. The solo play is boring because often the designers have made it less rich. There are many things from MUDs they could do to make solo play interesting and and complex but they purposely keep it simple so that people don't get overwhelmed in group play. Solo is often purposely neutered.
Why shouldnt there be better items for those who form and kill? What is the problem?
Sloooow down. Now you are bringing up an entirely different subect. Aka casual players vs. hardcore players. Players with limited free time vs players with insane free time. This is a whole new subject, for a whole new thread. Should players with limited time have access to the same items as players with near unlimted free time... etc... etc...
All i hear is, only those who are in superior guilds get the best items so its not fair...
Where do you hear this? Please post links. Please name names. Next, who cares? Find the mmorpg YOU enjoy and have fun. 200 or so people posting on mmorpg.com about they dislike means nothing IF the mmorpg you like is doing well.
How do you know they are superior? I am a very good player and I hated raiding, I am also good at managing people and solving problems (I know this from professional experience). I quit games rather than raid. You have no idea if raiders are better than me. It could be all the good people leave and your supposedly elite guilds are really just mediocre compared to a bunch of dross.
You are making a bad assumption using circular reasoning. Best rewards = best palyers. Raiders muct be the best because they get the best rewards . Maybe the best players leave because raiding is crap and its not challenging? Maybe the raiders are really mediocre ones because they can't tell when they are being milked by a company with unchallening time sinks they think are challenging? So Step up and be one of the server best players so you can get in an uber guild and get some descent items.
This is your solution to a problem you see? I will give you credit for at least trying to come up with a solution, instead of just posting about the problem then running away.
I won't be as nice as Xploror here, this is no solution. This is pure arrogance. Best? You wish. Best at being cattle. Why would I step up and do something I hate? Keeping chasing your time-sink rainbow cattle-boy. Now, I hear other people say that they like to get far on casual play, or they do not like to be grped they want the same chances by themselves... So I wonder, why do you even need the same kinda gear as those who raid if you are a solo nut anyway?...
All players need the best gear possible in order to survive the game. No matter if it is vs. NPCs, or PvP. And again, please post links to where you see these tons of people who demand to get just as far on solo play as players who group? Who demand the same uber power to be infused into their 1 solo character that an entire group of players have combined?
theres no need. And those PvP lovers, i love PvP also, and I'm still a raid nut... I just really wish I understood the hatred. The best part of a MMORPG is the 8 hour prep to gank some PvE powerhouse. WHAT IS THE ISSUE! man I want to understand.
Are you marrried? Do you have kids? Do you have a full time CAREER job? (Career meaning you put that job firrst before any computer game!). You might have tons of free time now.... 8 hours of just prep before even starting the actual battle might seem like nothihng to you. But ALL hardcore gamers sooner or later are forced to become casual gamers. Enjoy your tons of free time now! Enjoy the memories! Enjoy the fun you are having!
Originally posted by nero666 i loved ur comments about gilgamesh^^ and chekov was a nice dude from star trek btw..go buy some RAMs for your brain
How about you go visit your nearest major bookstore and read it first. See for yourself first? And if your too poor to buy the book, you can even read it for free in Barnes And Noble, and many other major bookstores. They encourage this too!
Before Tolken and his gods/myths, before the Roman gods/myths, before the Greek gods/myths, before the Egyptian gods/myths... the same/simular stories of hero vs monsters goes back even further. The hero never formed a raid group. It was always between 1-5 people taking on the epic monster.
Gilgamesh faced some serious epic monsters, and did group, but he never formed a raid. (btw his partner died after getting too waterlogged. )
As for Star Trek, the Away Team make an appearance in WoW
Here's a little question broken off from my big post: Would any of the people who say they like raiding still raid if raiding provided rewards that were only equal or inferior to those from other playstyles? Anybody?
Comments
Raiding is the antithesis of what an MMORPG is all about in my eyes. Most critically, it runs counter to the Game part - gaming is about doing something enjoyable, while raiding isn't. How many people who raid currently would raid at all if there were other options; are any of the people claiming to enjoy raiding on this forum willing to say they would keep raiding if raid loot was worse than what you could get in group content? Putting up with a bunch of loot whores and power-trippers to be able to brag about having better video game loot than other people isn't really a game, it's a cry for help.
Raiding certainly doesn't add anything to the RP part, raids are distinctly non-roleplaying environments in the traditional sense of the term, and as much stat collection as anything else in the CPRPG sense of the term. They do take place online, so I guess that's something. It actually runs counter to the Massively Multiplayer part; under 100 people is just a large LAN game, it doesn't really qualify as 'massive' until you get to thousands. Raiding tends to discourage people from interacting with the rest of the server, people generally just raid with their raid guild and often sneer at the idea of doing anything with people out of the guilld, which means the game really breaks down to something more like a NWN server than a real MMO for those people.
Plus raid mobs are always insanely stupid, it's like you're fighting in the monster special olympics. "Ohh, I'm a GOD! Therefore, when a big crowd of people hit me, I will concentrate all of my efforts on killing the guy in the heaviest armor who has all of those other guys throwing healing spells on him, I won't ever kill one of those guys that keeps him standing even though a casual punch would do it" Threat mechanics are fairly believeable when there's only half a dozen or so people, but it gets really silly when you have some big crowd of people and some ancient dragon or god only notices one of them.
And finally, I and most other people play RPG-type games to go off and be a great hero or great villain in an imaginary world, not to be some grunt or just a cog in a machine; I get enough of the feel of being a cog in a machine at work. But raiding is all about just being a grunt. I mean, how many novels or books are there that follow a group of 40 or 72 main characters accomplishing great deeds? You have a few major characters and a bunch of faceless grunts.
This is a mistake raiders often make. Uber guilds are generally the worst guilds on the server, containing the server's worst players. Raid guilds take a bunch of loot whores and shove them together under basement dwellers who love petty power-tripping. You would have to pay me a whole lot of real world cash for me to want to put up with an uber guild, all of the video game loot in the (virtual) world wouldn't do it.
"Worst players? But look at the uber sword of uberness, and the uberlicious pants of ubering!" is a likely response, but I'm not talking about whether they have the best gear, I'm talking about whether they're the best players. Generally they're not fun to be around, they have poor social skills and mostly want to be admired for their uberifficness instead of just having a good time. They're generally not actually skilled at playing their character, just at going into a raid and hitting a couple of buttons on a pattern, which doesn't work as well in the non-raid areas. They're generally unreliable in the extreme, if you see raid gear on someone in a pickup group odds are they're going to bail on you halfway through 'uhh... my guild's calling me'. They're also the worst about arguing 'that gear is for X class' when loot drops.
"Worst guilds? But they've defeated the Uberboss of Uberton and the Ubermatic Ubermensch of Uberta!" is another likely response, but again it's irrelevant. I don't care what video game accomplishments you've made, what I want from a guild is a fun group of people to do stuff with. Raid guilds operate like a job, not a game - you have to commit to showing up every [certain days] for [certain block of time] and can't just decide not to play your game for a week or two without asking permission for fear of being fir... kicked. Typically, you even get paid an hourly rate in the form of DKP.
It's a video game, no one needs the game at all; you can live perfectly well without playing any MMORPG at all, as millennia of history and billions of people today prove. That menas that any argument based on "need" is just absurd, because no one needs anything in the game.
You don't love what I'd call real PVP, you just like beating up people weaker than you; you like having gear that gives you an "I WIN" button. If you loved what I'd call real PVP, you'd be complaining to the devs asking them to make it so that raid gear isn't any better than other gear, at least in PVP, so that you'd have good competition.
That and raids are a big impersonal routine mess. You do the same job every time and specialize in it, all of the encounters have a strategy copied off the internet into your clan/guild's forum and you follow them.
When there is a big screw up and your raid fails you as a single person can do nothing to stop it and you were probably doing your job perfectly. Or worse you slack at your job and it makes no difference giving you a big motivation to keep doing well and uplift your guild.
Yeah, I used to raid alot in EQ and WoW.
However, I just can't bring myself to do it.
I don't wanna waste 6 hours sitting around (which is a large part of raids) hoping that something I need drops (which it might not) for a small chance to get it (with 6 other people who also want it) in order to be able to compete in the game.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
And just because I got started on the topic, the whole culture around raiding is just messed up. You can tell a lot about the people who raid by the comments they make, and they tend to be whiny brats who like pushing people around with what power they have in the game. It's pretty telling that raiders tend to laugh if someone talks about applying to multiple raid guilds, and that their guilds won't accept someone who does; it indicates that they don't really think their guild is good enough to attract someone, and that they want the satisfaction of making the prospective member say 'ohh yes, you're the best out there, I don't ever think of joining another' when really they probably just care about getting access to the content and loot.
It isn't that raid itself is hideous to me, it is everything necessary to raid.
Suddenly you have to start balancing a large group of people's schedules which is frustrating often. Now you have commitments in a game you started to relax and have fun, and people start playing alts or such because they burn out on their main. Even if you can get everyone together without any stumblings server hiccups and such can make any raid pure hell due to no fault of the groups.
Raids just amplify everything. Minor annoyances become major ones and it starts to build up and burn people out. I don't mind raiding, but I get frustrated when it is the ONLY way to actually progress in a game.
For me it's the timesink involved with raiding...and the general elitist attitude that goes along with it. Somehow, not having enough time to dedicate to raiding for hours on end in a video game equates to you being a n00b. I just can't help but laugh at this reasoning.
I mean, a decade ago when I was in highschool and had a ton of free time I used to raid in EQ1 quite often, but real life sets in shortly after, and along with it goes my raiding time.
A dev team needs to make raiding smaller (the 40-70 man shit is retarded and needs to go buh bye). The time needed to complete these "raids" shouldn't be more than 3 hours....2 if you don't wipe.
Joined - July 2004
When reading a Fantasy novel, how many people does it take to slay that dragon? That's right, only one.
You bring up an EXCELLENT point! ALL mmorpgs are based on/come from rpgs, which are based on/come from D&D, which is based on/comes from JRR Tolkien. Who in turn based his books on European folklore and myth. In ALL of it, epic monsters were slayed by 1 person to roughly 5 people!!! From the ultra-famous dragon in the book "The Hobbit" , to the rest of dragons, and epic monsters in Tolkens other works. To the epic monsters in the rest of Euro myths. Go back further to the roots of European myths - Egypt, the middle east, and same thing. It's always one hero who takes on an epic monster. At the MOST a group of 2-5.
(Like in the ancient story "Epic of Gilgamesh" Gilgamesh had an android/robot helper party up with him for most of his journey. (yeah, new can of wurms for a whole new subject. Robots and androids being talked about in ancient times more than 3,000+ years ago hahaha.) And even the super ancient tale "Siddartha" he did not form a raid group. Siddartha is one of the most oldest known adventure tales.
You are right that never was a "raid group" needed to defeat an epic monster. And that "raids" were only done to take over other lands, cities, countries, etc... Who decided raid groups would be needed?
i loved ur comments about gilgamesh^^
and chekov was a nice dude from star trek
btw..go buy some RAMs for your brain
You are 100% right that WoW's success has very little to do with the mmorpg players from the other past and present mmorpgs.
But... it's success is actually from a certain game that was a pioneer in internet gaming: Diablo 1.
Diablo 1 led to Diablo 2.
99% of the game features in WoW are a direct import from Diablo 1 and 2. Endgame raiding over and over for better items? Yes EQ had it, but Diabo 1 and 2 had it. To the point where it was mandatory! I do not know which came out first - EQ or Diablo 2. But I am very sure Diablo 1 came out before EQ, and possibly before UO.
So the Blizzard fans have always been used to endgame raiding as a requirement. It is the mmorpg fans who are not as used to it. To Blizzard, it does not matter, because WoW was NOT made for existing mmorpg fans. WoW was made for the 15 MILLION plus existing Blizzard fans first. These 15+ million fans come from Diablo 2, and Diablo 1.
me = red
xploror quotes = blue
How about you go visit your nearest major bookstore and read it first.
Before Tolken and his gods/myths, before the Roman gods/myths, before the Greek gods/myths, before the Egyptian gods/myths... the same/simular stories of hero vs monsters goes back even further. The hero never formed a raid group. It was always between 1-5 people taking on the epic monster.
Gilgamesh faced some serious epic monsters, and did group, but he never formed a raid. (btw his partner died after getting too waterlogged.
As for Star Trek, the Away Team make an appearance in WoW
Here's a little question broken off from my big post: Would any of the people who say they like raiding still raid if raiding provided rewards that were only equal or inferior to those from other playstyles? Anybody?