Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Temploiter
For those that say "It's Star Wars, there have to be Jedi!" I don't remember any Jedi playable characters in Rebel Assault, TIE Fighter, X-Wing, or the Battlefront Series, which are the ones I played. There is no rule that says, if it has a Star Wars lable it's my basic human rights being trampled if my toon doesn't have a glowing lazer sword in front of him.
There was Vader in all the space series. But it was a flight sim, so playable character is a non-issue there.
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
Let's see: Lego Star Wars: EP1-3... LOTS of jedi... certainly believable to have player jedi KOTOR: Lots of Jedi... hell a Jedi friggin WAR... absolutely believable to be a Jedi EP1-3 based games: Lots of Jedi
Star Wars Galaxies is set between EP4 and 5. There WERE NO JEDI and what few MAY have gone into hiding were IN HIDING IE: Not a playable class.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Temploiter
For those that say "It's Star Wars, there have to be Jedi!" I don't remember any Jedi playable characters in Rebel Assault, TIE Fighter, X-Wing, or the Battlefront Series, which are the ones I played. There is no rule that says, if it has a Star Wars lable it's my basic human rights being trampled if my toon doesn't have a glowing lazer sword in front of him.
There was Vader in all the space series. But it was a flight sim, so playable character is a non-issue there.
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
Let's see: Lego Star Wars: EP1-3... LOTS of jedi... certainly believable to have player jedi KOTOR: Lots of Jedi... hell a Jedi friggin WAR... absolutely believable to be a Jedi EP1-3 based games: Lots of Jedi
Star Wars Galaxies is set between EP4 and 5. There WERE NO JEDI and what few MAY have gone into hiding were IN HIDING IE: Not a playable class.
As much as I would want to be Jedi or Sith, I agree with this. I believe that the room left for doubt with the EP3 Movie is enough to believe that there are more Jedi in hiding, but as you said, if they are hiding, then you're not really playing a Jedi.
But I don't see why there couldn't be Force Sensitives. There were Inquisitors that worked for the Empire that were FS and used the Force and so on. There is also room for there to be other FS out there, that may know how to use the force somewhat. Maybe all of these FS users were not as strong as Jedi or Sith, but it's definitely enough grounds to create a profession that allows you to use the force in smaller ways. Maybe like the core Force abilities and that's it. Not sure about a lightsaber, but it's possible to believe some used a lightsaber.
As I said from the beginning (and as the design presumed in the beginning), Jedi in SWG should be powerful but few ..... powerful but few. Anything else was an inevitable disaster for the game.
Oo, and look what happened once they abandoned that concept and started listening to Marketing drones instead of game designers.
Brilliant!
As my signature said for months before my final big push of the Cancel button: TDMJ ........... Too Darned Many Jedi.
Originally posted by KzinKiller As I said from the beginning (and as the design presumed in the beginning), Jedi in SWG should be powerful but few ..... powerful but few. Anything else was an inevitable disaster for the game. Oo, and look what happened once they abandoned that concept and started listening to Marketing drones instead of game designers. Brilliant! As my signature said for months before my final big push of the Cancel button: TDMJ ........... Too Darned Many Jedi.
Well you can't possibly expect there always to be only a few Jedi when a way is established to become one and many people want it. It's only a matter of time before there are lots of jedi running around.
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by Elnator Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Temploiter
For those that say "It's Star Wars, there have to be Jedi!" I don't remember any Jedi playable characters in Rebel Assault, TIE Fighter, X-Wing, or the Battlefront Series, which are the ones I played. There is no rule that says, if it has a Star Wars lable it's my basic human rights being trampled if my toon doesn't have a glowing lazer sword in front of him.
There was Vader in all the space series. But it was a flight sim, so playable character is a non-issue there.
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
Let's see: Lego Star Wars: EP1-3... LOTS of jedi... certainly believable to have player jedi KOTOR: Lots of Jedi... hell a Jedi friggin WAR... absolutely believable to be a Jedi EP1-3 based games: Lots of Jedi
Star Wars Galaxies is set between EP4 and 5. There WERE NO JEDI and what few MAY have gone into hiding were IN HIDING IE: Not a playable class.
As much as I would want to be Jedi or Sith, I agree with this. I believe that the room left for doubt with the EP3 Movie is enough to believe that there are more Jedi in hiding, but as you said, if they are hiding, then you're not really playing a Jedi.
But I don't see why there couldn't be Force Sensitives. There were Inquisitors that worked for the Empire that were FS and used the Force and so on. There is also room for there to be other FS out there, that may know how to use the force somewhat. Maybe all of these FS users were not as strong as Jedi or Sith, but it's definitely enough grounds to create a profession that allows you to use the force in smaller ways. Maybe like the core Force abilities and that's it. Not sure about a lightsaber, but it's possible to believe some used a lightsaber.
No, it isn't. As alluded to in EPIV, "A New Hope" when Obi-Wan (A full blown Jedi Master, capable of wiping memories from people's minds if he really wanted to) the mere act of HAVING (let alone using) a light saber was enough to draw a storm trooper patrol to investigate.
Order 66 was never cancelled. Any fool dumb enough to wield a glow-stick in the EPIV-VI era would have been eliminated as soon as th ey were discovered. And anyone running around wielding Force powers would eventually follow the same fate.
As soon as Luke was relatively trained the Emperor and Vader became keenly aware of him and there were multiple bounty hunters engaged to try to help capture him (granted Vader went about it by capturing his friends... but it resulted in the same thing).
Sorry... it just doesn't work. Force sensitive I can buy. Getting insights, being a little more accurate with a blaster, or whatever.... but full blown force powers? No way... instadeath. Unless.... You.... Never.... Use.... Them.... Where.... Someone.... Can.... See.... It....
Sorry... no jedi... no force powers... shouldn't have been included.... Period.
If SWG were set AFTER EPVI or PRIOR to EPIII (hell even DURING EPIII) then, yeah.... I could see player Jedi... but not smack dab at the height of the Empire's power.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
I know many people would argue against it, because of how selfish people are, but making Jedi obtainable only by a lotto system would have kept Jedi rare.
They could have randomly drawn an account number out of a hat (figuratively speaking) once a month for the whole SWG (1 user for the entire game per month) and made that person a Jedi...if they wanted it. That person could be really powerful depending on his FRS rank and could have a permanent death system sorta like the 3 strikes in a certain amount of time and your Jedi is deleted. With Jedi this rare, you could easily take away the visibility system and implement the NGE BH system. Let the Jedi have their fun, but they would still be careful since there is Permadeath.
Originally posted by iskareot Originally posted by Obraik
Originally posted by Rekrul First, "Jedi was hard" is nonsense. It was always grind. Collect x ammount of xp, unlock Jedi. Ahh but see that was one part-- UNLOCKING once done, you forget alot of things were unknown, the risks involved were much higher on loss -- you keep forgetting this. Sure it was a grind...alone and long. But you forgot the element of Decay was fast, sabers would crit fail and you would have nothing if you did not plan with your crafter. You forgot to mention you had to watch over your shoulder every freaking single second to see if a red dot gank team was coming to put you into the decay death hole. I wont even get into 20 man gank squads, BHs all over the place, weapons , armor so many other elements that have been removed as a hardship.
One of major aspects of fun on Jedi for me was, watching the radar. Not out of fear per-se. But seeing a dot apear, and a mental trigger react. You *knew* he was after you. Keeping an eye on that random Master Marksman or even Master Scout as they walk around all innocent, but moving cursor over the equip macro. And when they attacked, you were ready, waiting for last 5 minutes while they thought they were smart... For me, that was one of best aspects. Outwitting the hunter. 20 man gank squads suck of course, but then again, that is the closest you can say about "against all odds".
You forgot the cost factor and economy from back then.... so man things were different then. You say it was not hard, I say wrong... I had to KNOW plan and watch my ass everywhere I went. It was not a (EASY GO WHERE YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT) type game.
After over a month and a half of playing, master carbineer, I think, I learned of buffs. Got one for free. So then, all tough and invincible, we decided to go to Dant and storm that place. I learned a lot in those 15 minutes. For example, voritors shoot poison. Lots of it. And they hurt. And buffs vanish when you die, and carbine sucked.But I learned. Learned the mobs, their specials, resists (not to attack NS Elders with VK for example) and so on.
Hard? no. Diverse, challenging, engaging always something new, always an unknown, always something new to be prepared for.
Where's the challenge if your mob is reduced to a number between 1 and 90.
Your confusing respect with somthing desired and known as the or one of the GOALS in game. Do not do that. (no offense to any crafters in the game even as I WAS ONE) -- nine times out of ten people did not say OH OH I WANT TO BE A SURVEYER --- I loved it though myself lol.
In the beginning, Jedi was an unknown, due to latency, there were none. But as more and more players unlocked, they started showing up and were rare. Some people got the privilige of playing them, others wanted to do so as well. But the only fact they became desirable, is because they were rare. Not because it was "hard" or "it took" long, but they were limited resource, a luxury, a commodity. Won't dissagree but the hard part was secondary due to the games mechs. Your trying to put the two together don't. The function of Jedi not to mention the issue and bugs was not at all easy. Life as a Jedi toon back then was not the same as a normal toons you know that, if you need help knowing this let me know. Example: when a server crashed and you died, not only did you have to park your Jedi for 7 - 10 days BUT you could lose a life or skill, not to mention visibility coming back into the world, causing even more issues down the road. (This is JUST ONE)...I was in beta until the NGE and I can tell you that a normal class toon and Jedi were completely different. But if you were in pre-9 I guess you would know this, if you were not then I understand your confusion.
No, not only did I not play then, I didn't even know that game exists.But then again, where is that game. I want to play it. Oh yes, with perma death, or skill loss, or FRS, or anything. No, I didn't play it. But I know every detail. Saber TEFs? Love the concept. I never flashed LS around, never had it equipped, so no problem for me. Perma death? It's 3 - 5 lives with reset timer. Completely fine by me.
Hard? Nah. Harsh. On the edge. Challenging. All the stuff I loved pre-cu for. The decay, taking care of items, keeping quick food for the case when a bunch of mobs blows your bike and you get stuck in agro. Spices and stims for emergencies. Parawan for escape, blue milk for eye shot spammers. Max modded clothes in case you can't put up armor, synthsteak to have time to put all these on. Keeping two sets of armor (not jedi), one low encum sliced for unbuffed, other high resists. Keeping stuff in droids to prevent decay.
Then TEFs, healing wounds and accidentally hitting an overt. The furiously keeping an eye on radar for red dots, having /burstRun typed in just in case for the 5 minutes it took to wear off since there's no point in buffing a non-combat toon anyway.
Hard? meh. Fun!
Just because someone didn't start from day one, doesn't mean they are a complete noobs in the ways pre-cu worked.
But so what. I played the game after JTL. It was pre-cu. Was Jedi that different? Some things changed, but the core remained. Would I play if they brought in perma death. Yep. Skill loss. Yep. Many wouldn't. But this doesn't change the fact game was what it was when I joined. And when I joined, I didn't know LS had LS damage. Or what exactly Jedi means. Nor did I care. What got me, was the game. I took it for what it was. Jedi, was only part of the game. An increasingly smaller as time passed.
But all the difficulties you mention are mostly part of poor game realization. This has always been true. And same issues affected others. Losing items, losing loot in rollbacks, losing experience, getting stuck with uncompletable quest, losing access to vette, getting borked crafting in DWB, and so on. Yes, many affected Jedi, but of all the issues, the perma-death was the worst, but despite that, anyone who has played for extended period of time has suffered from this. I lost a CA vendor during a server reset. Not sale vendor, storage vendor. "Working as intended, unfortunately we have no records..." But that has always been the name of the game. In that respect, Jedi wasn't special, with possible exception of perma death.
A lot of this "hard" also goes against some other realities, such as geo caves, DWB, black sun spawn... Not to mention the fight clubs. Don't know... people or all classes used these to grind in.. so pretty much this is a flush for most.. I did not experience this myself. I did professions myself from grinding them in all kinds of places..enjoying the game like all others did.
You didn't. Many did. Perhaps the most interesting part about NGE was that quite a few players showed up on new toons. After talking to them, you realized they were vets. And since they didn't give crap about anything, many let out quite a few details. Regarding their pre-cu eBayed Jedi, fight clibs, grinding, etc. Lots of famous names as well.
But at that point, it didn't really matter anymore.
Other say they did it the right way. There never was a right way. There was a threshold of xp that needed to be obtained, nothing more. There was no right or wrong, there was a one-dimensional indicator which at some point blinked and said you're now a Jedi. Hmm, ok this is a bit watered down.. but ok, Yes you had to do a set amount of professions, in a certain time that cost credits to do, with weapons that decayed, cost credits, with armor, with time on top of learning how to do them, while planning for your Jedi upon unlock so ok I can kinda agree with this. You had to do things to become Jedi -- Yep true. Granted to unlock it took more then just a click of a picture of Luke but I guess I understand this.. the real grind did not start until you unlocked.
See my point above. The "Jedi" now is not the Jedi that it was. It's not an unlockable special profession. It doesn't exist anymore. It's just a class with robed skin wielding a LS. This is something you cannot compare. As such, the point of those that had to grind worked in a different system. Before NGE, the comparisons about time taken and ammount of work accompanying it was valid. Since NGE it no longer is.
Yes, it is elitist behaviour. Just like any other claim "oh, in my time we had to do ...". It's a game. It has its rules. It's always your choice what to do. And if they change, it's not the player's fault. Again, just look at the facts of the matter then -- if you confuse this with elitist behaviour then it tells me a few things, one you were NOT a Jedi in this time frame so to make a point I can safely say (You do not know) exactly what it was like. While you use that term as a excuse think of it as more of a fact. We did what we had to, enjoyed it and it was a challenge period... no bullshit, no joke.. call it what it was.
Hmm, does it matter about when unlocked or finished grinding was Jedi? Why?
After the Cu, I actually hated what Jedi has become. Not because of the changes, but for a very different reason. The FRS, while closed before I could get into it at least offered some ranking. But watching the post-cu Jedi running around with their 150 max damage gen4s made me sad. For two reasons.
Many of those players grinded fair and square, through the FS and through Jedi with no 2x xp. They did everything, the followed the rules. In the end, they got screwed just because they started later.
No, I never ever said they didn't deserve it. I never accused anyone for "exploiting" 2xp or even respecs. If anything, I said good for them, seeing what kind of crap they got as a reward. They did what they had to do as well. They didn't really get much challenge, just the mind numbing grind. And in the end, they only got bullshit.
So I say they deserved the reward for the work they put in, but never got it.
Wrong... you will not find one of us old Knights that said nobody else deserved it, not me or I can almost bet any single one of them. In fact every single one of us would have loved to see each person earn it just the same.
Crap man I fought for this, you kidding???? I wanted every single player to have the right to experience what I did... it was so much fun and challenging... I think that everyone deserved that chance hands down. Generalization? Perhaps. But this is also generalization. Look at forums. The record of "knight" behavior is recorded there. Quite possibly not by you or your friends. But plenty of others. So once again, lets not generalize that everyone was honorable and wished all the best. There were too many that were downright insulting, abusive and elitist. Not all of course. But no point in pretending it didn't happen, and that it didn't happen often.
But my bottom line is this. Was pre6, pre9, pre10, pre15 hard? Long? Annoying? It was always a set of rules.
Many think that everyone was overjoyed with village idiots. Yay! 5 badges. Now to Paemos. Ef that. Give me mystery, give me challenge. And no, not a single person heard me ever complain in SWG. Except twice. When CU hit. When NGE hit. But why do so many people assume that those that didn't start playing day 1 didn't join the game because they loved every single aspect of it? But when looking for guides and strategies, should I put blindfolds on to NOT see the badges checklist?
But, that was not an option. Players got into what they were given. Fixed path? Well, nothing you can do at all. Follow it.
For me, the SWG Jedi and what it was ends with NGE. After that, you cannot put the double grind unlockable profession into starter class. It falls into same basket as novice marksman and novice artisan. It ceases to exist as something that it was.
But above all, the players I do feel sorry for, are all those that started post-cu. Too many of them were fooled into the Jedi grind, and just as the first ones started to get done with village, the NGE struck. Most of them didn't get lucky with 2x xp, they couldn't exploit the respecs, and they didn't have the experience to know all the good grind spots and economy. And yet, just as they should have gotten the same reward as everyone before, they got screwed.
I think those received a much greater disapointment than any of the the "true" pre-something Jedi. They did essentially the same work, for nothing. Not even the title. Now that sucks.
Well you can't possibly expect there always to be only a few Jedi when a way is established to become one and many people want it. It's only a matter of time before there are lots of jedi running around.
No, that was completely predictable, it's why abandoning the mechanisms that would have kept the Jedi population in check was an obvious and disastrous mistake. They didn't start with perma-death and XP loss because they sounded like cool ideas, but because they were fundamental game mechanics in the overall design. Then the Marketing drones talked them into taking off the lid, not knowing and certainly not caring what that did to game design as long as they could advertise "B3 a J3d3ye!" on shiny boxes.
Of course, now that their shiny box sales are in the toilet, they're blaming everything except their own ignorance.
Sorry... it just doesn't work. Force sensitive I can buy. Getting insights, being a little more accurate with a blaster, or whatever.... but full blown force powers? No way... instadeath. Unless.... You.... Never.... Use.... Them.... Where.... Someone.... Can.... See.... It....
Sorry... no jedi... no force powers... shouldn't have been included.... Period.
If SWG were set AFTER EPVI or PRIOR to EPIII (hell even DURING EPIII) then, yeah.... I could see player Jedi... but not smack dab at the height of the Empire's power.
/applaud
/cheer
/lightlighter
Preach on my brother!
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by KzinKiller As I said from the beginning (and as the design presumed in the beginning), Jedi in SWG should be powerful but few ..... powerful but few. Anything else was an inevitable disaster for the game. Oo, and look what happened once they abandoned that concept and started listening to Marketing drones instead of game designers. Brilliant! As my signature said for months before my final big push of the Cancel button: TDMJ ........... Too Darned Many Jedi.
Well you can't possibly expect there always to be only a few Jedi when a way is established to become one and many people want it. It's only a matter of time before there are lots of jedi running around.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by iskareot Originally posted by Obraik
Originally posted by Rekrul First, "Jedi was hard" is nonsense. It was always grind. Collect x ammount of xp, unlock Jedi. Ahh but see that was one part-- UNLOCKING once done, you forget alot of things were unknown, the risks involved were much higher on loss -- you keep forgetting this. Sure it was a grind...alone and long. But you forgot the element of Decay was fast, sabers would crit fail and you would have nothing if you did not plan with your crafter. You forgot to mention you had to watch over your shoulder every freaking single second to see if a red dot gank team was coming to put you into the decay death hole. I wont even get into 20 man gank squads, BHs all over the place, weapons , armor so many other elements that have been removed as a hardship.
One of major aspects of fun on Jedi for me was, watching the radar. Not out of fear per-se. But seeing a dot apear, and a mental trigger react. You *knew* he was after you. Keeping an eye on that random Master Marksman or even Master Scout as they walk around all innocent, but moving cursor over the equip macro. And when they attacked, you were ready, waiting for last 5 minutes while they thought they were smart... For me, that was one of best aspects. Outwitting the hunter. 20 man gank squads suck of course, but then again, that is the closest you can say about "against all odds". All of my replies will be in orange lol *now that we have this filling up*
-- Agreed, But see this comes from a tougher time in the game all around... not CU time. The aspects were different. Simply ask this: What was your risk and loss factor then? CU at best was XP loss, little to none 225k that I could get back in hours. See, I was 10 mill in the hole that I got out of in two weeks. TRUST me in the prior system no way would it have been that fast. How strong were the people and how many of them could come after you? Now let's add this in (as why it was hard in the aftermath) -- I will give you a example -- because this is somthing you just could not have known. I'm on Dath hunting alone... I am randomly going to lairs in the middle of nowhere --(No terms to use to make missons) -- we had to hide due to the TEF we had that would be live for 5 mins or so after one swing or heal. Ok so what did that mean? That meant that ANY OPPOSITE FACTION person , group or player could attack you -- but see, they had nothing to lose, decay -- that was it. SO that meant that a 3 man team could come by , see you (because the tef would make you RED ALREADY -- not blue, BUT RED AND overt) -- So, you see that.. BUT wait there is more... Back then we had nothing to midigate stats-- thats right we had 0 Defense... not some, not a little but 0!! So this means a few things, we only had the armor and health buff and a spice or two to save our ass BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!! Guess what else we didnt have? I did not have force run! Yep... it was not around then...lol, guess what else... your gonna love this. WE HAD 0 TERRAIN NEGO, thats right... A scout could move better then us... so, understand this.. I could not midigate Stasis attacks, had 0 Defenses other then the armor, could not burst run for shit because we could not even go up a hill fast.. AND if I did die I could lose a skill or life that would take 7-10 days to decay off. Now let's keep going because there is more... NOW, if I lived... IF.... I now have drawn massive visibility fighting someone -- BUT guess what??? We did not know how it worked, this was a time when they did not tell us how it worked..SO YOU GUESSED!!! Thats right, some of us thought a buddy did not give visibility... we were not told how it worked.. in fact we had no clue how it worked, did not know what gave us up to the terminals even. --- But let's not stop there. Ok, so you know you had shrines to go to in the CU after 9 deal? You got those because of us.. We did not have those.. We had the same cloner you did. So let's add in this great loss feature... Because it made it worse.. SO say I did not live and I did die... well how was I killed??? Odds are it was with SABER IN HAND... Guess what? We went to the cloner? Guess what was in hand? -- But even worse.. guess what carried over??? Yep the Tef-- also igniting the Saber therfore putting you back into visibility and then also in a Outpost with OP FACTION PEOPLE THAT WOULD KILL YOU. SO on top of your first death, you could die more only making it worse... But lets not forget having to wait 10 mins to board a shuttle, (no ships to move around fast on your own) -- SO a BH could be coming and you cannot even leave. But see there is more... Once you got back or were able to be safe, you realized your saber decay was getting a beat down, you were at 40/900 or so because you had to use a saber to grind with --- not powers, they were lousy xp. SO when you went to add a Pearl to your saber.. (Which by the way was not a container) like a power up if you will, IT WOULD CRIT FAIL!!!! Now, let me explain this... we had gen 1 through 5, you would add a Pearl each time you wanted to upgrade the Generation, there was no taking it out, changing the color of it etc... it was a colored Pearl and you just used it)... but they were 5-9 mill each at best back then so it was not cheap on Bria anyway. SO you would start the crafting process (Which by the way was not known as perfect) -- You would see a system message of "Critical fail" which happend about 1 out 8 times we think.. What did this do??? Well YOU WOULD LOSE THE ENTIRE SABER to the wind.... YEP lose it all, no hilt, no pearls nothing... all of it gone in 12 seconds, 20 - 25 mill gone. So much for that saber or grind today, you have to go get your main to sell stuff and craft... enjoy -- YOUR Godamn right I did... I and I learned what a challenge was in a game thats for sure. But see, this is just a drop in the buccket. I was in the CU, helped out people... Listen, ADK kits Saber changes, Robes, Defenses, Force run, XP loss only by death, TEFS!!!, planning, knowing where to go and when... And just simply making a freaking saber , not to mention the Shrines as a option to go to incase your camped... not to mention did you know we had to go to trainers???? we had to almost become visible to get trained back then as well....Oh yeah I could go on and on about the differences of the CU Jedi vs Pre-9 Jedi -- But I think I made my point about the word "hard" -- I say challenge and it was Hard for the reasons stated as a start... AGAIN because you did not experience it you cannot know or feel it. It's funny though, imagine making your best saber and being on the 5th gen and it just goes poof..LOL, dude it was hard to get all that back-- trust me. (Oh sorry CHALLENGING)..lol
You forgot the cost factor and economy from back then.... so man things were different then. You say it was not hard, I say wrong... I had to KNOW plan and watch my ass everywhere I went. It was not a (EASY GO WHERE YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT) type game.
After over a month and a half of playing, master carbineer, I think, I learned of buffs. Got one for free. So then, all tough and invincible, we decided to go to Dant and storm that place. I learned a lot in those 15 minutes. For example, voritors shoot poison. Lots of it. And they hurt. And buffs vanish when you die, and carbine sucked.But I learned. Learned the mobs, their specials, resists (not to attack NS Elders with VK for example) and so on.
Hard? no. Diverse, challenging, engaging always something new, always an unknown, always something new to be prepared for.
Where's the challenge if your mob is reduced to a number between 1 and 90.
Yes in the CU now doubt it was much eaiser to learn, I agree with you here no doubt. The game was made into levels that had things painted on the front of them... By all means I agree the CU was not as complex we all know this. What you did not see was at one time NS were so strong that one of them using force powers (Which were turned up high) could take you out in a second..but again, the loss factor was huge I think that is where some of this comes from. The CU was easy with Jedi and the path just got worse from there on.
Your confusing respect with somthing desired and known as the or one of the GOALS in game. Do not do that. (no offense to any crafters in the game even as I WAS ONE) -- nine times out of ten people did not say OH OH I WANT TO BE A SURVEYER --- I loved it though myself lol.
In the beginning, Jedi was an unknown, due to latency, there were none. But as more and more players unlocked, they started showing up and were rare. Some people got the privilige of playing them, others wanted to do so as well. But the only fact they became desirable, is because they were rare. Not because it was "hard" or "it took" long, but they were limited resource, a luxury, a commodity. Won't dissagree but the hard part was secondary due to the games mechs. Your trying to put the two together don't. The function of Jedi not to mention the issue and bugs was not at all easy. Life as a Jedi toon back then was not the same as a normal toons you know that, if you need help knowing this let me know. Example: when a server crashed and you died, not only did you have to park your Jedi for 7 - 10 days BUT you could lose a life or skill, not to mention visibility coming back into the world, causing even more issues down the road. (This is JUST ONE)...I was in beta until the NGE and I can tell you that a normal class toon and Jedi were completely different. But if you were in pre-9 I guess you would know this, if you were not then I understand your confusion.
No, not only did I not play then, I didn't even know that game exists. But then again, where is that game. I want to play it. Oh yes, with perma death, or skill loss, or FRS, or anything. No, I didn't play it. But I know every detail. Saber TEFs? Love the concept. I never flashed LS around, never had it equipped, so no problem for me. Perma death? It's 3 - 5 lives with reset timer. Completely fine by me.
Hard? Nah. Harsh. On the edge. Challenging. All the stuff I loved pre-cu for. The decay, taking care of items, keeping quick food for the case when a bunch of mobs blows your bike and you get stuck in agro. Spices and stims for emergencies. Parawan for escape, blue milk for eye shot spammers. Max modded clothes in case you can't put up armor, synthsteak to have time to put all these on. Keeping two sets of armor (not jedi), one low encum sliced for unbuffed, other high resists. Keeping stuff in droids to prevent decay.
Then TEFs, healing wounds and accidentally hitting an overt. The furiously keeping an eye on radar for red dots, having /burstRun typed in just in case for the 5 minutes it took to wear off since there's no point in buffing a non-combat toon anyway.
Hard? meh. Fun!
Just because someone didn't start from day one, doesn't mean they are a complete noobs in the ways pre-cu worked.
But so what. I played the game after JTL. It was pre-cu. Was Jedi that different? Some things changed, but the core remained. Would I play if they brought in perma death. Yep. Skill loss. Yep. Many wouldn't. But this doesn't change the fact game was what it was when I joined. And when I joined, I didn't know LS had LS damage. Or what exactly Jedi means. Nor did I care. What got me, was the game. I took it for what it was. Jedi, was only part of the game. An increasingly smaller as time passed.
But all the difficulties you mention are mostly part of poor game realization. This has always been true. And same issues affected others. Losing items, losing loot in rollbacks, losing experience, getting stuck with uncompletable quest, losing access to vette, getting borked crafting in DWB, and so on. Yes, many affected Jedi, but of all the issues, the perma-death was the worst, but despite that, anyone who has played for extended period of time has suffered from this. I lost a CA vendor during a server reset. Not sale vendor, storage vendor. "Working as intended, unfortunately we have no records..." But that has always been the name of the game. In that respect, Jedi wasn't special, with possible exception of perma death.
No some of the issues were part of Jedi, be clear on this...or make no mistake, so I call it hard-- I still will. Challenging is good too, I did well at it either way I know this now. Again, losing things or the thought there of is different then a vendor.. I was a crafter..lol sorry, nothing compares... see I have and was in your version you played in too.. don't forget that.
The constant risk factor and mech of pre-9 Jedi was much much different and harder then CU Jedi and on... period. Just on the simple loss of life factor and then keep going.
A lot of this "hard" also goes against some other realities, such as geo caves, DWB, black sun spawn... Not to mention the fight clubs. Don't know... people or all classes used these to grind in.. so pretty much this is a flush for most.. I did not experience this myself. I did professions myself from grinding them in all kinds of places..enjoying the game like all others did.
You didn't. Many did. Perhaps the most interesting part about NGE was that quite a few players showed up on new toons. After talking to them, you realized they were vets. And since they didn't give crap about anything, many let out quite a few details. Regarding their pre-cu eBayed Jedi, fight clibs, grinding, etc. Lots of famous names as well.
But at that point, it didn't really matter anymore.
Other say they did it the right way. There never was a right way. There was a threshold of xp that needed to be obtained, nothing more. There was no right or wrong, there was a one-dimensional indicator which at some point blinked and said you're now a Jedi. Hmm, ok this is a bit watered down.. but ok, Yes you had to do a set amount of professions, in a certain time that cost credits to do, with weapons that decayed, cost credits, with armor, with time on top of learning how to do them, while planning for your Jedi upon unlock so ok I can kinda agree with this. You had to do things to become Jedi -- Yep true. Granted to unlock it took more then just a click of a picture of Luke but I guess I understand this.. the real grind did not start until you unlocked.
See my point above. The "Jedi" now is not the Jedi that it was. It's not an unlockable special profession. It doesn't exist anymore. It's just a class with robed skin wielding a LS. This is something you cannot compare. As such, the point of those that had to grind worked in a different system. Before NGE, the comparisons about time taken and ammount of work accompanying it was valid. Since NGE it no longer is.
Ok agreed, effort was taken just to get there perse.
Yes, it is elitist behaviour. Just like any other claim "oh, in my time we had to do ...". It's a game. It has its rules. It's always your choice what to do. And if they change, it's not the player's fault. Again, just look at the facts of the matter then -- if you confuse this with elitist behaviour then it tells me a few things, one you were NOT a Jedi in this time frame so to make a point I can safely say (You do not know) exactly what it was like. While you use that term as a excuse think of it as more of a fact. We did what we had to, enjoyed it and it was a challenge period... no bullshit, no joke.. call it what it was.
Hmm, does it matter about when unlocked or finished grinding was Jedi? Why?
After the Cu, I actually hated what Jedi has become. Not because of the changes, but for a very different reason. The FRS, while closed before I could get into it at least offered some ranking. But watching the post-cu Jedi running around with their 150 max damage gen4s made me sad. For two reasons.
Many of those players grinded fair and square, through the FS and through Jedi with no 2x xp. They did everything, the followed the rules. In the end, they got screwed just because they started later.
No, I never ever said they didn't deserve it. I never accused anyone for "exploiting" 2xp or even respecs. If anything, I said good for them, seeing what kind of crap they got as a reward. They did what they had to do as well. They didn't really get much challenge, just the mind numbing grind. And in the end, they only got bullshit.
So I say they deserved the reward for the work they put in, but never got it.
Well I did think you were trying to compare versions of Jedi and what was "Hard" so yes it did. I gave you examples to the difference between pre-9, CU and then NGE (Which does not really count lol sorry)..I never saw that double XP , quad or respec crap lol... it was not even a concept then I bet, I just did my think in the middle of nowhere hidden as we should have been. I agree the CU did change Jedi for the worse, it was a bad thing all the way around but far better then the NGEs concepts. I am sorry you did not get to be in the FRS and I am sorry you were lied to like I was. For what it's worth there was alot of Jedi Knights that waited for our Robes back that we earned... trust me. So at least know that alot of people were just as mad as you if not more so.
Wrong... you will not find one of us old Knights that said nobody else deserved it, not me or I can almost bet any single one of them. In fact every single one of us would have loved to see each person earn it just the same.
Crap man I fought for this, you kidding???? I wanted every single player to have the right to experience what I did... it was so much fun and challenging... I think that everyone deserved that chance hands down. Generalization? Perhaps. But this is also generalization. Look at forums. The record of "knight" behavior is recorded there. Quite possibly not by you or your friends. But plenty of others. So once again, lets not generalize that everyone was honorable and wished all the best. There were too many that were downright insulting, abusive and elitist. Not all of course. But no point in pretending it didn't happen, and that it didn't happen often.
But my bottom line is this. Was pre6, pre9, pre10, pre15 hard? Long? Annoying? It was always a set of rules.
Many think that everyone was overjoyed with village idiots. Yay! 5 badges. Now to Paemos. Ef that. Give me mystery, give me challenge. And no, not a single person heard me ever complain in SWG. Except twice. When CU hit. When NGE hit. But why do so many people assume that those that didn't start playing day 1 didn't join the game because they loved every single aspect of it? But when looking for guides and strategies, should I put blindfolds on to NOT see the badges checklist?
But, that was not an option. Players got into what they were given. Fixed path? Well, nothing you can do at all. Follow it.
For me, the SWG Jedi and what it was ends with NGE. After that, you cannot put the double grind unlockable profession into starter class. It falls into same basket as novice marksman and novice artisan. It ceases to exist as something that it was.
But above all, the players I do feel sorry for, are all those that started post-cu. Too many of them were fooled into the Jedi grind, and just as the first ones started to get done with village, the NGE struck. Most of them didn't get lucky with 2x xp, they couldn't exploit the respecs, and they didn't have the experience to know all the good grind spots and economy. And yet, just as they should have gotten the same reward as everyone before, they got screwed.
I think those received a much greater disapointment than any of the the "true" pre-something Jedi. They did essentially the same work, for nothing. Not even the title. Now that sucks.
If anything I always thought a set of rewards should have been given , i.e. for levels of unlock. Elder robes for all was a bit stupid. It could have gone, Elder for pre-9, Master for CU, Knight for pre-CU 2 weeks before the NGE type deal. This way each level got somthing for the effort etc.. (I should say title more so then robe, I hate the robes) -- The FRS robes should have never been made into mere loot that was just degrading and sad... a Robe once earned made into a looted item off some Mob or a Animal... oh yeah, that is a good idea. I think overall it went bad from the get go, If I had to put a timeframe of when the game went sour I would say about pub-8-9 at the latest. Ideas to market the game obvioulsy just got silly at the holocron Xmas stage. To bad though, I think Jedi had alot of promise, but human nature, marketing, some serious jealousy and anger made it into somthing that people spit on. I went from being offered all kinds of help at the start, people offering true support to people wanting to destory me, nerf us.. remove us from the game all in a mere 1.5 years.... it sucked going out like that. As I have said before though, I am very thankful to have been part of it. I miss the help and team driven help we did for each other. At one time there was no reason to argue or hate.. we all just wanted to stay alive lol.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by New_to_MMO Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by KzinKiller As I said from the beginning (and as the design presumed in the beginning), Jedi in SWG should be powerful but few ..... powerful but few. Anything else was an inevitable disaster for the game. Oo, and look what happened once they abandoned that concept and started listening to Marketing drones instead of game designers. Brilliant! As my signature said for months before my final big push of the Cancel button: TDMJ ........... Too Darned Many Jedi.
Well you can't possibly expect there always to be only a few Jedi when a way is established to become one and many people want it. It's only a matter of time before there are lots of jedi running around.
1) visibility
2) jedi TEF
3) perma death
lots of jedi running around problem.....solved!
These are just three things that make a pre-9 Jedi different from a NGE Jedi... there is tons more but this alone would change the game and make them scream so loud that even the NGE fanbois would quit.
I mean crap, they complain about a Elder freaking robe.... give me a break. Pirrg would cry for 10 days straight lol.
Imagine telling the NGE Jedi they would now start to be changed into the CU loss system even... just XP loss and Decay -- !@!! lol -- I mean look at what Decay has made people post???? JUST DECAY??? - tell them they will lose a skill or money when getting killed and watch them scream..lol
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by New_to_MMO Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by KzinKiller As I said from the beginning (and as the design presumed in the beginning), Jedi in SWG should be powerful but few ..... powerful but few. Anything else was an inevitable disaster for the game. Oo, and look what happened once they abandoned that concept and started listening to Marketing drones instead of game designers. Brilliant! As my signature said for months before my final big push of the Cancel button: TDMJ ........... Too Darned Many Jedi.
Well you can't possibly expect there always to be only a few Jedi when a way is established to become one and many people want it. It's only a matter of time before there are lots of jedi running around.
1) visibility
2) jedi TEF
3) perma death
lots of jedi running around problem.....solved!
Woooooooooooo YEAH
/cheer
/whistle
/applaud
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Shayde Originally posted by New_to_MMO Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by KzinKiller As I said from the beginning (and as the design presumed in the beginning), Jedi in SWG should be powerful but few ..... powerful but few. Anything else was an inevitable disaster for the game. Oo, and look what happened once they abandoned that concept and started listening to Marketing drones instead of game designers. Brilliant! As my signature said for months before my final big push of the Cancel button: TDMJ ........... Too Darned Many Jedi.
Well you can't possibly expect there always to be only a few Jedi when a way is established to become one and many people want it. It's only a matter of time before there are lots of jedi running around.
1) visibility
2) jedi TEF
3) perma death
lots of jedi running around problem.....solved!
Woooooooooooo YEAH
/cheer
/whistle
/applaud
At least you support the hard Jedi version lol.
I agree, I do miss it and the game alone with it.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Yes in the CU now doubt it was much eaiser to learn, I agree with you here no doubt. The game was made into levels that had things painted on the front of them... By all means I agree the CU was not as complex we all know this. What you did not see was at one time NS were so strong that one of them using force powers (Which were turned up high) could take you out in a second..but again, the loss factor was huge I think that is where some of this comes from. The CU was easy with Jedi and the path just got worse from there on.
The part I was originally commenting was all pre-cu. Hence the kinetic resists, mobs using poison, etc.
After CU, level was everything there was left. In my book, grinding under such constraint is insanely boring. You look at number, and spin away.
Pre-cu it mattered which mob you chose. Even driving to village, and getting ambushed by ancient rancors would quickly put a 500 tick mind disease on you. Leaving you with over 1000 mind wounds in a minute. Better hope you had some brandy handy.
Grinding faction NPCs was cool if you could handle the ranged damage.
Figuring little tricks. For example, wearing mini suit was the norm. But I found out, that melee mobs hit 90% of the time into gloves. So, I purchased 10 sets of gloves, and used clothing for the rest. Saved tons of money, and only took minimally more damage. This didn't apply to all mobs.
Raptors. On Endor. Evil. Very evil. Instant death to most even buffed. Very dangerous.
Want to loot some crystals on dant from force cave? Cool, 90% armor, I should be fine. Of course, they use force powers that ignore armor.
Want to go after krayt? Hope that someone can manage agro, or that your doc stocked up on state heals and rez packs.
Want to escape, heh, 15 second timer till bike. 15 second for pets, 15 seconds for camps.
Got wounds? Got BF? How much more damage will BF give you?
Armor getting worn down? Is it time to repeair, or can you handle extra damage.
What's the filling on brandy, what's the duration, can you chain two?
CU killed so much. Did it improve anything? Perhaps, but at a high cost.
But don't forget, there was a very long period between pub9 and CU. Many, if not most pre-cu Jedi come from that period. So even if perma death was gone, everything else was still there.
-- Agreed, But see this comes from a tougher time in the game all around... not CU time. The aspects were different. Simply ask this:
What was your risk and loss factor then?
CU at best was XP loss, little to none 225k that I could get back in hours. See, I was 10 mill in the hole that I got out of in two weeks. TRUST me in the prior system no way would it have been that fast.
How strong were the people and how many of them could come after you?
Now let's add this in (as why it was hard in the aftermath) -- I will give you a example -- because this is somthing you just could not have known.
I'm on Dath hunting alone... I am randomly going to lairs in the middle of nowhere --(No terms to use to make missons) -- we had to hide due to the TEF we had that would be live for 5 mins or so after one swing or heal.
Ok so what did that mean? That meant that ANY OPPOSITE FACTION person , group or player could attack you -- but see, they had nothing to lose, decay -- that was it.
SO that meant that a 3 man team could come by , see you (because the tef would make you RED ALREADY -- not blue, BUT RED AND overt) -- So, you see that.. BUT wait there is more...
Back then we had nothing to midigate stats-- thats right we had 0 Defense... not some, not a little but 0!! So this means a few things, we only had the armor and health buff and a spice or two to save our ass BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!!
Guess what else we didnt have? I did not have force run! Yep... it was not around then...lol, guess what else... your gonna love this. WE HAD 0 TERRAIN NEGO, thats right... A scout could move better then us... so, understand this.. I could not midigate Stasis attacks, had 0 Defenses other then the armor, could not burst run for shit because we could not even go up a hill fast.. AND if I did die I could lose a skill or life that would take 7-10 days to decay off. Now let's keep going because there is more... NOW, if I lived... IF.... I now have drawn massive visibility fighting someone -- BUT guess what??? We did not know how it worked, this was a time when they did not tell us how it worked..SO YOU GUESSED!!! Thats right, some of us thought a buddy did not give visibility... we were not told how it worked.. in fact we had no clue how it worked, did not know what gave us up to the terminals even. --- But let's not stop there.
Ok, so you know you had shrines to go to in the CU after 9 deal? You got those because of us.. We did not have those.. We had the same cloner you did. So let's add in this great loss feature... Because it made it worse.. SO say I did not live and I did die... well how was I killed??? Odds are it was with SABER IN HAND... Guess what? We went to the cloner? Guess what was in hand? -- But even worse.. guess what carried over??? Yep the Tef-- also igniting the Saber therfore putting you back into visibility and then also in a Outpost with OP FACTION PEOPLE THAT WOULD KILL YOU.
SO on top of your first death, you could die more only making it worse... But lets not forget having to wait 10 mins to board a shuttle, (no ships to move around fast on your own) -- SO a BH could be coming and you cannot even leave. But see there is more... Once you got back or were able to be safe, you realized your saber decay was getting a beat down, you were at 40/900 or so because you had to use a saber to grind with --- not powers, they were lousy xp. SO when you went to add a Pearl to your saber.. (Which by the way was not a container) like a power up if you will, IT WOULD CRIT FAIL!!!! Now, let me explain this... we had gen 1 through 5, you would add a Pearl each time you wanted to upgrade the Generation, there was no taking it out, changing the color of it etc... it was a colored Pearl and you just used it)... but they were 5-9 mill each at best back then so it was not cheap on Bria anyway. SO you would start the crafting process (Which by the way was not known as perfect) -- You would see a system message of "Critical fail" which happend about 1 out 8 times we think.. What did this do??? Well YOU WOULD LOSE THE ENTIRE SABER to the wind.... YEP lose it all, no hilt, no pearls nothing... all of it gone in 12 seconds, 20 - 25 mill gone. So much for that saber or grind today, you have to go get your main to sell stuff and craft... enjoy -- YOUR Godamn right I did... I and I learned what a challenge was in a game thats for sure.
But see, this is just a drop in the buccket.
I was in the CU, helped out people...
Listen, ADK kits Saber changes, Robes, Defenses, Force run, XP loss only by death, TEFS!!!, planning, knowing where to go and when... And just simply making a freaking saber , not to mention the Shrines as a option to go to incase your camped... not to mention did you know we had to go to trainers???? we had to almost become visible to get trained back then as well....Oh yeah I could go on and on about the differences of the CU Jedi vs Pre-9 Jedi -- But I think I made my point about the word "hard" --
I say challenge and it was Hard for the reasons stated as a start... AGAIN because you did not experience it you cannot know or feel it.
It's funny though, imagine making your best saber and being on the 5th gen and it just goes poof..LOL, dude it was hard to get all that back-- trust me. (Oh sorry CHALLENGING)..lol
Now that you mention it, I remember crit fails. They were finally removed either in one of last pre-cu publishes or sometime later during CU. I must have gotten lucky though, never lost anything of worth to them, or at least I don't remember it anymore.
But I stand by what I said. Many things were always broken or borked in SWG. But give me the game above over anything post pub 13.
Including all the annoyances, like fire being the only dot that kills you on its own.
But this is also a list of all the things that players were asking to get fixed. Nobody who played then wanted this to be replaced with CU. Not to mention the NGE.
This is exactly the list of issues that were the problem, and not just for Jedi, but for everyone. Little and big annoyances. This is what needed fixing.
And yes, I knew everything you listed above, except the force run thing, and the crit fails I forgot about. So I, for one, know how much it took, even if I never experienced all of it.
But as I said, I played well before the CU. I did just about everything in that time, except getting up to knight. And I'll take any of those publishes over and post CU SWG. Interestingly, seems that many more would as well.
Exact-a-mundo, I didn't mind an alpha class when it was, by design, a *small* alpha class that was mostly too busy running from BH's and fighting other Jedi to give much of a damn about a poor Trando rifleman.
But roaming ganksquads of l337 Jedi .... just go straight to BSOD and get it over with.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by iskareot
-- Agreed, But see this comes from a tougher time in the game all around... not CU time. The aspects were different. Simply ask this:
What was your risk and loss factor then?
CU at best was XP loss, little to none 225k that I could get back in hours. See, I was 10 mill in the hole that I got out of in two weeks. TRUST me in the prior system no way would it have been that fast.
How strong were the people and how many of them could come after you?
Now let's add this in (as why it was hard in the aftermath) -- I will give you a example -- because this is somthing you just could not have known.
I'm on Dath hunting alone... I am randomly going to lairs in the middle of nowhere --(No terms to use to make missons) -- we had to hide due to the TEF we had that would be live for 5 mins or so after one swing or heal.
Ok so what did that mean? That meant that ANY OPPOSITE FACTION person , group or player could attack you -- but see, they had nothing to lose, decay -- that was it.
SO that meant that a 3 man team could come by , see you (because the tef would make you RED ALREADY -- not blue, BUT RED AND overt) -- So, you see that.. BUT wait there is more...
Back then we had nothing to midigate stats-- thats right we had 0 Defense... not some, not a little but 0!! So this means a few things, we only had the armor and health buff and a spice or two to save our ass BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!!
Guess what else we didnt have? I did not have force run! Yep... it was not around then...lol, guess what else... your gonna love this. WE HAD 0 TERRAIN NEGO, thats right... A scout could move better then us... so, understand this.. I could not midigate Stasis attacks, had 0 Defenses other then the armor, could not burst run for shit because we could not even go up a hill fast.. AND if I did die I could lose a skill or life that would take 7-10 days to decay off. Now let's keep going because there is more... NOW, if I lived... IF.... I now have drawn massive visibility fighting someone -- BUT guess what??? We did not know how it worked, this was a time when they did not tell us how it worked..SO YOU GUESSED!!! Thats right, some of us thought a buddy did not give visibility... we were not told how it worked.. in fact we had no clue how it worked, did not know what gave us up to the terminals even. --- But let's not stop there.
Ok, so you know you had shrines to go to in the CU after 9 deal? You got those because of us.. We did not have those.. We had the same cloner you did. So let's add in this great loss feature... Because it made it worse.. SO say I did not live and I did die... well how was I killed??? Odds are it was with SABER IN HAND... Guess what? We went to the cloner? Guess what was in hand? -- But even worse.. guess what carried over??? Yep the Tef-- also igniting the Saber therfore putting you back into visibility and then also in a Outpost with OP FACTION PEOPLE THAT WOULD KILL YOU.
SO on top of your first death, you could die more only making it worse... But lets not forget having to wait 10 mins to board a shuttle, (no ships to move around fast on your own) -- SO a BH could be coming and you cannot even leave. But see there is more... Once you got back or were able to be safe, you realized your saber decay was getting a beat down, you were at 40/900 or so because you had to use a saber to grind with --- not powers, they were lousy xp. SO when you went to add a Pearl to your saber.. (Which by the way was not a container) like a power up if you will, IT WOULD CRIT FAIL!!!! Now, let me explain this... we had gen 1 through 5, you would add a Pearl each time you wanted to upgrade the Generation, there was no taking it out, changing the color of it etc... it was a colored Pearl and you just used it)... but they were 5-9 mill each at best back then so it was not cheap on Bria anyway. SO you would start the crafting process (Which by the way was not known as perfect) -- You would see a system message of "Critical fail" which happend about 1 out 8 times we think.. What did this do??? Well YOU WOULD LOSE THE ENTIRE SABER to the wind.... YEP lose it all, no hilt, no pearls nothing... all of it gone in 12 seconds, 20 - 25 mill gone. So much for that saber or grind today, you have to go get your main to sell stuff and craft... enjoy -- YOUR Godamn right I did... I and I learned what a challenge was in a game thats for sure.
But see, this is just a drop in the buccket.
I was in the CU, helped out people...
Listen, ADK kits Saber changes, Robes, Defenses, Force run, XP loss only by death, TEFS!!!, planning, knowing where to go and when... And just simply making a freaking saber , not to mention the Shrines as a option to go to incase your camped... not to mention did you know we had to go to trainers???? we had to almost become visible to get trained back then as well....Oh yeah I could go on and on about the differences of the CU Jedi vs Pre-9 Jedi -- But I think I made my point about the word "hard" --
I say challenge and it was Hard for the reasons stated as a start... AGAIN because you did not experience it you cannot know or feel it.
It's funny though, imagine making your best saber and being on the 5th gen and it just goes poof..LOL, dude it was hard to get all that back-- trust me. (Oh sorry CHALLENGING)..lol
Now that you mention it, I remember crit fails. They were finally removed either in one of last pre-cu publishes or sometime later during CU. I must have gotten lucky though, never lost anything of worth to them, or at least I don't remember it anymore.
But I stand by what I said. Many things were always broken or borked in SWG. But give me the game above over anything post pub 13.
Including all the annoyances, like fire being the only dot that kills you on its own.
But this is also a list of all the things that players were asking to get fixed. Nobody who played then wanted this to be replaced with CU. Not to mention the NGE.
This is exactly the list of issues that were the problem, and not just for Jedi, but for everyone. Little and big annoyances. This is what needed fixing.
And yes, I knew everything you listed above, except the force run thing, and the crit fails I forgot about. So I, for one, know how much it took, even if I never experienced all of it.
But as I said, I played well before the CU. I did just about everything in that time, except getting up to knight. And I'll take any of those publishes over and post CU SWG. Interestingly, seems that many more would as well.
I agree and would do it all again in a heart beat now doubt..
Seeing clicky Jedi crying about decay alone is just a joke.... worried about a hilt or some robe crap. Almost tells you the difference between Elder Jedi and NGE Jedi.
But yes, the game was much more difficult just to get by. Maybe that was the downfall, we will never know I fear.
KILLER AFTERNOON DEBATE THOUGH.... made the time go by as I got nothing done in the office LOLOL.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
But see this comes from a tougher time in the game all around... not CU time. The aspects were different. Simply ask this: What was your risk and loss factor then? CU at best was XP loss, little to none 225k that I could get back in hours. See, I was 10 mill in the hole that I got out of in two weeks. TRUST me in the prior system no way would it have been that fast. How strong were the people and how many of them could come after you? Now let's add this in (as why it was hard in the aftermath) -- I will give you a example -- because this is somthing you just could not have known. I'm on Dath hunting alone... I am randomly going to lairs in the middle of nowhere --(No terms to use to make missons) -- we had to hide due to the TEF we had that would be live for 5 mins or so after one swing or heal. Ok so what did that mean? That meant that ANY OPPOSITE FACTION person , group or player could attack you -- but see, they had nothing to lose, decay -- that was it. SO that meant that a 3 man team could come by , see you (because the tef would make you RED ALREADY -- not blue, BUT RED AND overt) -- So, you see that.. BUT wait there is more... Back then we had nothing to midigate stats-- thats right we had 0 Defense... not some, not a little but 0!! So this means a few things, we only had the armor and health buff and a spice or two to save our ass BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!! Guess what else we didnt have? I did not have force run! Yep... it was not around then...lol, guess what else... your gonna love this. WE HAD 0 TERRAIN NEGO, thats right... A scout could move better then us... so, understand this.. I could not midigate Stasis attacks, had 0 Defenses other then the armor, could not burst run for shit because we could not even go up a hill fast.. AND if I did die I could lose a skill or life that would take 7-10 days to decay off. Now let's keep going because there is more... NOW, if I lived... IF.... I now have drawn massive visibility fighting someone -- BUT guess what??? We did not know how it worked, this was a time when they did not tell us how it worked..SO YOU GUESSED!!! Thats right, some of us thought a buddy did not give visibility... we were not told how it worked.. in fact we had no clue how it worked, did not know what gave us up to the terminals even. --- But let's not stop there. Ok, so you know you had shrines to go to in the CU after 9 deal? You got those because of us.. We did not have those.. We had the same cloner you did. So let's add in this great loss feature... Because it made it worse.. SO say I did not live and I did die... well how was I killed??? Odds are it was with SABER IN HAND... Guess what? We went to the cloner? Guess what was in hand? -- But even worse.. guess what carried over??? Yep the Tef-- also igniting the Saber therfore putting you back into visibility and then also in a Outpost with OP FACTION PEOPLE THAT WOULD KILL YOU. SO on top of your first death, you could die more only making it worse... But lets not forget having to wait 10 mins to board a shuttle, (no ships to move around fast on your own) -- SO a BH could be coming and you cannot even leave. But see there is more... Once you got back or were able to be safe, you realized your saber decay was getting a beat down, you were at 40/900 or so because you had to use a saber to grind with --- not powers, they were lousy xp. SO when you went to add a Pearl to your saber.. (Which by the way was not a container) like a power up if you will, IT WOULD CRIT FAIL!!!! Now, let me explain this... we had gen 1 through 5, you would add a Pearl each time you wanted to upgrade the Generation, there was no taking it out, changing the color of it etc... it was a colored Pearl and you just used it)... but they were 5-9 mill each at best back then so it was not cheap on Bria anyway. SO you would start the crafting process (Which by the way was not known as perfect) -- You would see a system message of "Critical fail" which happend about 1 out 8 times we think.. What did this do??? Well YOU WOULD LOSE THE ENTIRE SABER to the wind.... YEP lose it all, no hilt, no pearls nothing... all of it gone in 12 seconds, 20 - 25 mill gone. So much for that saber or grind today, you have to go get your main to sell stuff and craft... enjoy -- YOUR Godamn right I did... I and I learned what a challenge was in a game thats for sure. But see, this is just a drop in the buccket. I was in the CU, helped out people... Listen, ADK kits Saber changes, Robes, Defenses, Force run, XP loss only by death, TEFS!!!, planning, knowing where to go and when... And just simply making a freaking saber , not to mention the Shrines as a option to go to incase your camped... not to mention did you know we had to go to trainers???? we had to almost become visible to get trained back then as well....Oh yeah I could go on and on about the differences of the CU Jedi vs Pre-9 Jedi -- But I think I made my point about the word "hard" -- I say challenge and it was Hard for the reasons stated as a start... AGAIN because you did not experience it you cannot know or feel it. It's funny though, imagine making your best saber and being on the 5th gen and it just goes poof..LOL, dude it was hard to get all that back-- trust me. (Oh sorry CHALLENGING)..lol
That story brought a tear to my eye. Jedi how it was SUPPOSED to be.
Anyone who thinks otherwise was playing in the WRONG TIME PERIOD.
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
To many quotes. Youve read one post, youve read them all. The words are litteral here.
Anyways, very valid points, I think I can agree with Shayde, iskaerot, and basically everybody else, Jedi does not belong in the SWG time period, end of discussion.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now." Boba Fett
Yeah, I agree now that Pre-Publish 9 was hard and challenging then. I would rather play then than now. Say what you want about me and my clicky Jedi, but I and many others would give it all up for the old game.
As far as the Elder thing goes, SOE really borked that one up. Village grinders got nothing for their efforts, Newly attained Padawans got the same reward as full temp Jedi. Full temp CU Jedi got the same rewards as Pre-Publish 9 Jedi and the people whose professions got deleted, didn't get shit either. So yeah, all that makes me pretty mad, but I've learned to roll with the punches when i was growing up. I just try to have fun now in the only Star Wars MMO that exists right now. Admittedly, my friends list is shrinking and with the next Publish date not even announced, I am tempted to cancel and wait to resub until the next Publish comes out.
Supposedly in the next Publish, Smugglers and Officers will finally be worth playing, traders will be worth playing, reverse engineering will be making a come back, which means I don't have to look like every other damn person out there, and decay may make a reappearance.
If none of that is up to snuff, I'm not sure what I will do. No MMO out there has an IP worth mentioning, because DDO has been over run by leet kids and the rest of the MMO's are just rehashed versions of earlier MMOs'. So if you've played one, you've played them all and in my case, I've actually played them all. So I am really hoping that this next Publish is good enough to hold me over to the next Publish or the next game or the release of Pre-NGE servers.
But, my hats off to you all that got Jedi Pre-Publish 9, but I don't have much respect for those CU Jedi that only had to grind their way to glory and occasionally have to regrind due to xp loss.
I support the version that when you heard the sound of a glowstick, you imidiately thought "WTF Vader?!?!?!" and ran oogle eyed to find the source of the sound, and then found a weakling with a saber being ripped to shreds by all the other people in the city who also saw enough to open up the TEF.
Comments
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
Let's see:
Lego Star Wars: EP1-3... LOTS of jedi... certainly believable to have player jedi
KOTOR: Lots of Jedi... hell a Jedi friggin WAR... absolutely believable to be a Jedi
EP1-3 based games: Lots of Jedi
Star Wars Galaxies is set between EP4 and 5. There WERE NO JEDI and what few MAY have gone into hiding were IN HIDING IE: Not a playable class.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
Let's see:
Lego Star Wars: EP1-3... LOTS of jedi... certainly believable to have player jedi
KOTOR: Lots of Jedi... hell a Jedi friggin WAR... absolutely believable to be a Jedi
EP1-3 based games: Lots of Jedi
Star Wars Galaxies is set between EP4 and 5. There WERE NO JEDI and what few MAY have gone into hiding were IN HIDING IE: Not a playable class.
As much as I would want to be Jedi or Sith, I agree with this. I believe that the room left for doubt with the EP3 Movie is enough to believe that there are more Jedi in hiding, but as you said, if they are hiding, then you're not really playing a Jedi.
But I don't see why there couldn't be Force Sensitives. There were Inquisitors that worked for the Empire that were FS and used the Force and so on. There is also room for there to be other FS out there, that may know how to use the force somewhat. Maybe all of these FS users were not as strong as Jedi or Sith, but it's definitely enough grounds to create a profession that allows you to use the force in smaller ways. Maybe like the core Force abilities and that's it. Not sure about a lightsaber, but it's possible to believe some used a lightsaber.
As I said from the beginning (and as the design presumed in the beginning), Jedi in SWG should be powerful but few ..... powerful but few. Anything else was an inevitable disaster for the game.
Oo, and look what happened once they abandoned that concept and started listening to Marketing drones instead of game designers.
Brilliant!
As my signature said for months before my final big push of the Cancel button: TDMJ ........... Too Darned Many Jedi.
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
Let's see:
Lego Star Wars: EP1-3... LOTS of jedi... certainly believable to have player jedi
KOTOR: Lots of Jedi... hell a Jedi friggin WAR... absolutely believable to be a Jedi
EP1-3 based games: Lots of Jedi
Star Wars Galaxies is set between EP4 and 5. There WERE NO JEDI and what few MAY have gone into hiding were IN HIDING IE: Not a playable class.
As much as I would want to be Jedi or Sith, I agree with this. I believe that the room left for doubt with the EP3 Movie is enough to believe that there are more Jedi in hiding, but as you said, if they are hiding, then you're not really playing a Jedi.
But I don't see why there couldn't be Force Sensitives. There were Inquisitors that worked for the Empire that were FS and used the Force and so on. There is also room for there to be other FS out there, that may know how to use the force somewhat. Maybe all of these FS users were not as strong as Jedi or Sith, but it's definitely enough grounds to create a profession that allows you to use the force in smaller ways. Maybe like the core Force abilities and that's it. Not sure about a lightsaber, but it's possible to believe some used a lightsaber.
No, it isn't. As alluded to in EPIV, "A New Hope" when Obi-Wan (A full blown Jedi Master, capable of wiping memories from people's minds if he really wanted to) the mere act of HAVING (let alone using) a light saber was enough to draw a storm trooper patrol to investigate.
Order 66 was never cancelled. Any fool dumb enough to wield a glow-stick in the EPIV-VI era would have been eliminated as soon as th ey were discovered. And anyone running around wielding Force powers would eventually follow the same fate.
As soon as Luke was relatively trained the Emperor and Vader became keenly aware of him and there were multiple bounty hunters engaged to try to help capture him (granted Vader went about it by capturing his friends... but it resulted in the same thing).
Sorry... it just doesn't work. Force sensitive I can buy. Getting insights, being a little more accurate with a blaster, or whatever.... but full blown force powers? No way... instadeath. Unless.... You.... Never.... Use.... Them.... Where.... Someone.... Can.... See.... It....
Sorry... no jedi... no force powers... shouldn't have been included.... Period.
If SWG were set AFTER EPVI or PRIOR to EPIII (hell even DURING EPIII) then, yeah.... I could see player Jedi... but not smack dab at the height of the Empire's power.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
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Still in: A couple Betas
I know many people would argue against it, because of how selfish people are, but making Jedi obtainable only by a lotto system would have kept Jedi rare.
They could have randomly drawn an account number out of a hat (figuratively speaking) once a month for the whole SWG (1 user for the entire game per month) and made that person a Jedi...if they wanted it. That person could be really powerful depending on his FRS rank and could have a permanent death system sorta like the 3 strikes in a certain amount of time and your Jedi is deleted. With Jedi this rare, you could easily take away the visibility system and implement the NGE BH system. Let the Jedi have their fun, but they would still be careful since there is Permadeath.
But hey, one can dream.
One of major aspects of fun on Jedi for me was, watching the radar. Not out of fear per-se. But seeing a dot apear, and a mental trigger react. You *knew* he was after you. Keeping an eye on that random Master Marksman or even Master Scout as they walk around all innocent, but moving cursor over the equip macro. And when they attacked, you were ready, waiting for last 5 minutes while they thought they were smart...
For me, that was one of best aspects. Outwitting the hunter. 20 man gank squads suck of course, but then again, that is the closest you can say about "against all odds".
After over a month and a half of playing, master carbineer, I think, I learned of buffs. Got one for free. So then, all tough and invincible, we decided to go to Dant and storm that place. I learned a lot in those 15 minutes. For example, voritors shoot poison. Lots of it. And they hurt. And buffs vanish when you die, and carbine sucked.But I learned. Learned the mobs, their specials, resists (not to attack NS Elders with VK for example) and so on.
Hard? no. Diverse, challenging, engaging always something new, always an unknown, always something new to be prepared for.
Where's the challenge if your mob is reduced to a number between 1 and 90.
No, not only did I not play then, I didn't even know that game exists.But then again, where is that game. I want to play it. Oh yes, with perma death, or skill loss, or FRS, or anything. No, I didn't play it. But I know every detail. Saber TEFs? Love the concept. I never flashed LS around, never had it equipped, so no problem for me. Perma death? It's 3 - 5 lives with reset timer. Completely fine by me.
Hard? Nah. Harsh. On the edge. Challenging. All the stuff I loved pre-cu for. The decay, taking care of items, keeping quick food for the case when a bunch of mobs blows your bike and you get stuck in agro. Spices and stims for emergencies. Parawan for escape, blue milk for eye shot spammers. Max modded clothes in case you can't put up armor, synthsteak to have time to put all these on. Keeping two sets of armor (not jedi), one low encum sliced for unbuffed, other high resists. Keeping stuff in droids to prevent decay.
Then TEFs, healing wounds and accidentally hitting an overt. The furiously keeping an eye on radar for red dots, having /burstRun typed in just in case for the 5 minutes it took to wear off since there's no point in buffing a non-combat toon anyway.
Hard? meh. Fun!
Just because someone didn't start from day one, doesn't mean they are a complete noobs in the ways pre-cu worked.
But so what. I played the game after JTL. It was pre-cu. Was Jedi that different? Some things changed, but the core remained. Would I play if they brought in perma death. Yep. Skill loss. Yep. Many wouldn't. But this doesn't change the fact game was what it was when I joined. And when I joined, I didn't know LS had LS damage. Or what exactly Jedi means. Nor did I care. What got me, was the game. I took it for what it was. Jedi, was only part of the game. An increasingly smaller as time passed.
But all the difficulties you mention are mostly part of poor game realization. This has always been true. And same issues affected others. Losing items, losing loot in rollbacks, losing experience, getting stuck with uncompletable quest, losing access to vette, getting borked crafting in DWB, and so on. Yes, many affected Jedi, but of all the issues, the perma-death was the worst, but despite that, anyone who has played for extended period of time has suffered from this. I lost a CA vendor during a server reset. Not sale vendor, storage vendor. "Working as intended, unfortunately we have no records..." But that has always been the name of the game. In that respect, Jedi wasn't special, with possible exception of perma death.
A lot of this "hard" also goes against some other realities, such as geo caves, DWB, black sun spawn... Not to mention the fight clubs.
Don't know... people or all classes used these to grind in.. so pretty much this is a flush for most.. I did not experience this myself. I did professions myself from grinding them in all kinds of places..enjoying the game like all others did.
You didn't. Many did. Perhaps the most interesting part about NGE was that quite a few players showed up on new toons. After talking to them, you realized they were vets. And since they didn't give crap about anything, many let out quite a few details. Regarding their pre-cu eBayed Jedi, fight clibs, grinding, etc. Lots of famous names as well.
But at that point, it didn't really matter anymore.
Other say they did it the right way. There never was a right way. There was a threshold of xp that needed to be obtained, nothing more. There was no right or wrong, there was a one-dimensional indicator which at some point blinked and said you're now a Jedi.
Hmm, ok this is a bit watered down.. but ok, Yes you had to do a set amount of professions, in a certain time that cost credits to do, with weapons that decayed, cost credits, with armor, with time on top of learning how to do them, while planning for your Jedi upon unlock so ok I can kinda agree with this. You had to do things to become Jedi -- Yep true. Granted to unlock it took more then just a click of a picture of Luke but I guess I understand this.. the real grind did not start until you unlocked.
See my point above. The "Jedi" now is not the Jedi that it was. It's not an unlockable special profession. It doesn't exist anymore. It's just a class with robed skin wielding a LS. This is something you cannot compare. As such, the point of those that had to grind worked in a different system. Before NGE, the comparisons about time taken and ammount of work accompanying it was valid. Since NGE it no longer is.
Yes, it is elitist behaviour. Just like any other claim "oh, in my time we had to do ...". It's a game. It has its rules. It's always your choice what to do. And if they change, it's not the player's fault.
Again, just look at the facts of the matter then -- if you confuse this with elitist behaviour then it tells me a few things, one you were NOT a Jedi in this time frame so to make a point I can safely say (You do not know) exactly what it was like. While you use that term as a excuse think of it as more of a fact. We did what we had to, enjoyed it and it was a challenge period... no bullshit, no joke.. call it what it was.
Hmm, does it matter about when unlocked or finished grinding was Jedi? Why?
After the Cu, I actually hated what Jedi has become. Not because of the changes, but for a very different reason. The FRS, while closed before I could get into it at least offered some ranking. But watching the post-cu Jedi running around with their 150 max damage gen4s made me sad. For two reasons.
Many of those players grinded fair and square, through the FS and through Jedi with no 2x xp. They did everything, the followed the rules. In the end, they got screwed just because they started later.
No, I never ever said they didn't deserve it. I never accused anyone for "exploiting" 2xp or even respecs. If anything, I said good for them, seeing what kind of crap they got as a reward. They did what they had to do as well. They didn't really get much challenge, just the mind numbing grind. And in the end, they only got bullshit.
So I say they deserved the reward for the work they put in, but never got it.
Wrong... you will not find one of us old Knights that said nobody else deserved it, not me or I can almost bet any single one of them. In fact every single one of us would have loved to see each person earn it just the same.
Crap man I fought for this, you kidding???? I wanted every single player to have the right to experience what I did... it was so much fun and challenging... I think that everyone deserved that chance hands down.
Generalization? Perhaps. But this is also generalization.
Look at forums. The record of "knight" behavior is recorded there. Quite possibly not by you or your friends. But plenty of others. So once again, lets not generalize that everyone was honorable and wished all the best. There were too many that were downright insulting, abusive and elitist. Not all of course. But no point in pretending it didn't happen, and that it didn't happen often.
But my bottom line is this. Was pre6, pre9, pre10, pre15 hard? Long? Annoying? It was always a set of rules.
Many think that everyone was overjoyed with village idiots. Yay! 5 badges. Now to Paemos. Ef that. Give me mystery, give me challenge. And no, not a single person heard me ever complain in SWG. Except twice. When CU hit. When NGE hit. But why do so many people assume that those that didn't start playing day 1 didn't join the game because they loved every single aspect of it? But when looking for guides and strategies, should I put blindfolds on to NOT see the badges checklist?
But, that was not an option. Players got into what they were given. Fixed path? Well, nothing you can do at all. Follow it.
For me, the SWG Jedi and what it was ends with NGE. After that, you cannot put the double grind unlockable profession into starter class. It falls into same basket as novice marksman and novice artisan. It ceases to exist as something that it was.
But above all, the players I do feel sorry for, are all those that started post-cu. Too many of them were fooled into the Jedi grind, and just as the first ones started to get done with village, the NGE struck. Most of them didn't get lucky with 2x xp, they couldn't exploit the respecs, and they didn't have the experience to know all the good grind spots and economy. And yet, just as they should have gotten the same reward as everyone before, they got screwed.
I think those received a much greater disapointment than any of the the "true" pre-something Jedi. They did essentially the same work, for nothing. Not even the title. Now that sucks.
Of course, now that their shiny box sales are in the toilet, they're blaming everything except their own ignorance.
/cheer
/lightlighter
Preach on my brother!
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
1) visibility
2) jedi TEF
3) perma death
lots of jedi running around problem.....solved!
One of major aspects of fun on Jedi for me was, watching the radar. Not out of fear per-se. But seeing a dot apear, and a mental trigger react. You *knew* he was after you. Keeping an eye on that random Master Marksman or even Master Scout as they walk around all innocent, but moving cursor over the equip macro. And when they attacked, you were ready, waiting for last 5 minutes while they thought they were smart...
For me, that was one of best aspects. Outwitting the hunter. 20 man gank squads suck of course, but then again, that is the closest you can say about "against all odds".
All of my replies will be in orange lol *now that we have this filling up*
-- Agreed, But see this comes from a tougher time in the game all around... not CU time. The aspects were different. Simply ask this:
What was your risk and loss factor then?
CU at best was XP loss, little to none 225k that I could get back in hours. See, I was 10 mill in the hole that I got out of in two weeks. TRUST me in the prior system no way would it have been that fast.
How strong were the people and how many of them could come after you?
Now let's add this in (as why it was hard in the aftermath) -- I will give you a example -- because this is somthing you just could not have known.
I'm on Dath hunting alone... I am randomly going to lairs in the middle of nowhere --(No terms to use to make missons) -- we had to hide due to the TEF we had that would be live for 5 mins or so after one swing or heal.
Ok so what did that mean? That meant that ANY OPPOSITE FACTION person , group or player could attack you -- but see, they had nothing to lose, decay -- that was it.
SO that meant that a 3 man team could come by , see you (because the tef would make you RED ALREADY -- not blue, BUT RED AND overt) -- So, you see that.. BUT wait there is more...
Back then we had nothing to midigate stats-- thats right we had 0 Defense... not some, not a little but 0!! So this means a few things, we only had the armor and health buff and a spice or two to save our ass BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!!
Guess what else we didnt have? I did not have force run! Yep... it was not around then...lol, guess what else... your gonna love this. WE HAD 0 TERRAIN NEGO, thats right... A scout could move better then us... so, understand this.. I could not midigate Stasis attacks, had 0 Defenses other then the armor, could not burst run for shit because we could not even go up a hill fast.. AND if I did die I could lose a skill or life that would take 7-10 days to decay off. Now let's keep going because there is more... NOW, if I lived... IF.... I now have drawn massive visibility fighting someone -- BUT guess what??? We did not know how it worked, this was a time when they did not tell us how it worked..SO YOU GUESSED!!! Thats right, some of us thought a buddy did not give visibility... we were not told how it worked.. in fact we had no clue how it worked, did not know what gave us up to the terminals even. --- But let's not stop there.
Ok, so you know you had shrines to go to in the CU after 9 deal? You got those because of us.. We did not have those.. We had the same cloner you did. So let's add in this great loss feature... Because it made it worse.. SO say I did not live and I did die... well how was I killed??? Odds are it was with SABER IN HAND... Guess what? We went to the cloner? Guess what was in hand? -- But even worse.. guess what carried over??? Yep the Tef-- also igniting the Saber therfore putting you back into visibility and then also in a Outpost with OP FACTION PEOPLE THAT WOULD KILL YOU.
SO on top of your first death, you could die more only making it worse... But lets not forget having to wait 10 mins to board a shuttle, (no ships to move around fast on your own) -- SO a BH could be coming and you cannot even leave. But see there is more... Once you got back or were able to be safe, you realized your saber decay was getting a beat down, you were at 40/900 or so because you had to use a saber to grind with --- not powers, they were lousy xp. SO when you went to add a Pearl to your saber.. (Which by the way was not a container) like a power up if you will, IT WOULD CRIT FAIL!!!! Now, let me explain this... we had gen 1 through 5, you would add a Pearl each time you wanted to upgrade the Generation, there was no taking it out, changing the color of it etc... it was a colored Pearl and you just used it)... but they were 5-9 mill each at best back then so it was not cheap on Bria anyway. SO you would start the crafting process (Which by the way was not known as perfect) -- You would see a system message of "Critical fail" which happend about 1 out 8 times we think.. What did this do??? Well YOU WOULD LOSE THE ENTIRE SABER to the wind.... YEP lose it all, no hilt, no pearls nothing... all of it gone in 12 seconds, 20 - 25 mill gone. So much for that saber or grind today, you have to go get your main to sell stuff and craft... enjoy -- YOUR Godamn right I did... I and I learned what a challenge was in a game thats for sure.
But see, this is just a drop in the buccket.
I was in the CU, helped out people...
Listen, ADK kits Saber changes, Robes, Defenses, Force run, XP loss only by death, TEFS!!!, planning, knowing where to go and when... And just simply making a freaking saber , not to mention the Shrines as a option to go to incase your camped... not to mention did you know we had to go to trainers???? we had to almost become visible to get trained back then as well....Oh yeah I could go on and on about the differences of the CU Jedi vs Pre-9 Jedi -- But I think I made my point about the word "hard" --
I say challenge and it was Hard for the reasons stated as a start... AGAIN because you did not experience it you cannot know or feel it.
It's funny though, imagine making your best saber and being on the 5th gen and it just goes poof..LOL, dude it was hard to get all that back-- trust me. (Oh sorry CHALLENGING)..lol
After over a month and a half of playing, master carbineer, I think, I learned of buffs. Got one for free. So then, all tough and invincible, we decided to go to Dant and storm that place. I learned a lot in those 15 minutes. For example, voritors shoot poison. Lots of it. And they hurt. And buffs vanish when you die, and carbine sucked.But I learned. Learned the mobs, their specials, resists (not to attack NS Elders with VK for example) and so on.
Hard? no. Diverse, challenging, engaging always something new, always an unknown, always something new to be prepared for.
Where's the challenge if your mob is reduced to a number between 1 and 90.
Yes in the CU now doubt it was much eaiser to learn, I agree with you here no doubt.
The game was made into levels that had things painted on the front of them... By all means I agree the CU was not as complex we all know this. What you did not see was at one time NS were so strong that one of them using force powers (Which were turned up high) could take you out in a second..but again, the loss factor was huge I think that is where some of this comes from.
The CU was easy with Jedi and the path just got worse from there on.
No, not only did I not play then, I didn't even know that game exists.
But then again, where is that game. I want to play it. Oh yes, with perma death, or skill loss, or FRS, or anything. No, I didn't play it. But I know every detail. Saber TEFs? Love the concept. I never flashed LS around, never had it equipped, so no problem for me. Perma death? It's 3 - 5 lives with reset timer. Completely fine by me.
Hard? Nah. Harsh. On the edge. Challenging. All the stuff I loved pre-cu for. The decay, taking care of items, keeping quick food for the case when a bunch of mobs blows your bike and you get stuck in agro. Spices and stims for emergencies. Parawan for escape, blue milk for eye shot spammers. Max modded clothes in case you can't put up armor, synthsteak to have time to put all these on. Keeping two sets of armor (not jedi), one low encum sliced for unbuffed, other high resists. Keeping stuff in droids to prevent decay.
Then TEFs, healing wounds and accidentally hitting an overt. The furiously keeping an eye on radar for red dots, having /burstRun typed in just in case for the 5 minutes it took to wear off since there's no point in buffing a non-combat toon anyway.
Hard? meh. Fun!
Just because someone didn't start from day one, doesn't mean they are a complete noobs in the ways pre-cu worked.
But so what. I played the game after JTL. It was pre-cu. Was Jedi that different? Some things changed, but the core remained. Would I play if they brought in perma death. Yep. Skill loss. Yep. Many wouldn't. But this doesn't change the fact game was what it was when I joined. And when I joined, I didn't know LS had LS damage. Or what exactly Jedi means. Nor did I care. What got me, was the game. I took it for what it was. Jedi, was only part of the game. An increasingly smaller as time passed.
But all the difficulties you mention are mostly part of poor game realization. This has always been true. And same issues affected others. Losing items, losing loot in rollbacks, losing experience, getting stuck with uncompletable quest, losing access to vette, getting borked crafting in DWB, and so on. Yes, many affected Jedi, but of all the issues, the perma-death was the worst, but despite that, anyone who has played for extended period of time has suffered from this. I lost a CA vendor during a server reset. Not sale vendor, storage vendor. "Working as intended, unfortunately we have no records..." But that has always been the name of the game. In that respect, Jedi wasn't special, with possible exception of perma death.
No some of the issues were part of Jedi, be clear on this...or make no mistake, so I call it hard-- I still will. Challenging is good too, I did well at it either way I know this now. Again, losing things or the thought there of is different then a vendor.. I was a crafter..lol sorry, nothing compares... see I have and was in your version you played in too.. don't forget that.
The constant risk factor and mech of pre-9 Jedi was much much different and harder then CU Jedi and on... period. Just on the simple loss of life factor and then keep going.
A lot of this "hard" also goes against some other realities, such as geo caves, DWB, black sun spawn... Not to mention the fight clubs.
Don't know... people or all classes used these to grind in.. so pretty much this is a flush for most.. I did not experience this myself. I did professions myself from grinding them in all kinds of places..enjoying the game like all others did.
You didn't. Many did. Perhaps the most interesting part about NGE was that quite a few players showed up on new toons. After talking to them, you realized they were vets. And since they didn't give crap about anything, many let out quite a few details. Regarding their pre-cu eBayed Jedi, fight clibs, grinding, etc. Lots of famous names as well.
But at that point, it didn't really matter anymore.
Other say they did it the right way. There never was a right way. There was a threshold of xp that needed to be obtained, nothing more. There was no right or wrong, there was a one-dimensional indicator which at some point blinked and said you're now a Jedi.
Hmm, ok this is a bit watered down.. but ok, Yes you had to do a set amount of professions, in a certain time that cost credits to do, with weapons that decayed, cost credits, with armor, with time on top of learning how to do them, while planning for your Jedi upon unlock so ok I can kinda agree with this. You had to do things to become Jedi -- Yep true. Granted to unlock it took more then just a click of a picture of Luke but I guess I understand this.. the real grind did not start until you unlocked.
See my point above. The "Jedi" now is not the Jedi that it was. It's not an unlockable special profession. It doesn't exist anymore. It's just a class with robed skin wielding a LS. This is something you cannot compare. As such, the point of those that had to grind worked in a different system. Before NGE, the comparisons about time taken and ammount of work accompanying it was valid. Since NGE it no longer is.
Ok agreed, effort was taken just to get there perse.
Yes, it is elitist behaviour. Just like any other claim "oh, in my time we had to do ...". It's a game. It has its rules. It's always your choice what to do. And if they change, it's not the player's fault.
Again, just look at the facts of the matter then -- if you confuse this with elitist behaviour then it tells me a few things, one you were NOT a Jedi in this time frame so to make a point I can safely say (You do not know) exactly what it was like. While you use that term as a excuse think of it as more of a fact. We did what we had to, enjoyed it and it was a challenge period... no bullshit, no joke.. call it what it was.
Hmm, does it matter about when unlocked or finished grinding was Jedi? Why?
After the Cu, I actually hated what Jedi has become. Not because of the changes, but for a very different reason. The FRS, while closed before I could get into it at least offered some ranking. But watching the post-cu Jedi running around with their 150 max damage gen4s made me sad. For two reasons.
Many of those players grinded fair and square, through the FS and through Jedi with no 2x xp. They did everything, the followed the rules. In the end, they got screwed just because they started later.
No, I never ever said they didn't deserve it. I never accused anyone for "exploiting" 2xp or even respecs. If anything, I said good for them, seeing what kind of crap they got as a reward. They did what they had to do as well. They didn't really get much challenge, just the mind numbing grind. And in the end, they only got bullshit.
So I say they deserved the reward for the work they put in, but never got it.
Well I did think you were trying to compare versions of Jedi and what was "Hard" so yes it did. I gave you examples to the difference between pre-9, CU and then NGE (Which does not really count lol sorry)..I never saw that double XP , quad or respec crap lol... it was not even a concept then I bet, I just did my think in the middle of nowhere hidden as we should have been.
I agree the CU did change Jedi for the worse, it was a bad thing all the way around but far better then the NGEs concepts. I am sorry you did not get to be in the FRS and I am sorry you were lied to like I was. For what it's worth there was alot of Jedi Knights that waited for our Robes back that we earned... trust me. So at least know that alot of people were just as mad as you if not more so.
Wrong... you will not find one of us old Knights that said nobody else deserved it, not me or I can almost bet any single one of them. In fact every single one of us would have loved to see each person earn it just the same.
Crap man I fought for this, you kidding???? I wanted every single player to have the right to experience what I did... it was so much fun and challenging... I think that everyone deserved that chance hands down.
Generalization? Perhaps. But this is also generalization.
Look at forums. The record of "knight" behavior is recorded there. Quite possibly not by you or your friends. But plenty of others. So once again, lets not generalize that everyone was honorable and wished all the best. There were too many that were downright insulting, abusive and elitist. Not all of course. But no point in pretending it didn't happen, and that it didn't happen often.
But my bottom line is this. Was pre6, pre9, pre10, pre15 hard? Long? Annoying? It was always a set of rules.
Many think that everyone was overjoyed with village idiots. Yay! 5 badges. Now to Paemos. Ef that. Give me mystery, give me challenge. And no, not a single person heard me ever complain in SWG. Except twice. When CU hit. When NGE hit. But why do so many people assume that those that didn't start playing day 1 didn't join the game because they loved every single aspect of it? But when looking for guides and strategies, should I put blindfolds on to NOT see the badges checklist?
But, that was not an option. Players got into what they were given. Fixed path? Well, nothing you can do at all. Follow it.
For me, the SWG Jedi and what it was ends with NGE. After that, you cannot put the double grind unlockable profession into starter class. It falls into same basket as novice marksman and novice artisan. It ceases to exist as something that it was.
But above all, the players I do feel sorry for, are all those that started post-cu. Too many of them were fooled into the Jedi grind, and just as the first ones started to get done with village, the NGE struck. Most of them didn't get lucky with 2x xp, they couldn't exploit the respecs, and they didn't have the experience to know all the good grind spots and economy. And yet, just as they should have gotten the same reward as everyone before, they got screwed.
I think those received a much greater disapointment than any of the the "true" pre-something Jedi. They did essentially the same work, for nothing. Not even the title. Now that sucks.
If anything I always thought a set of rewards should have been given , i.e. for levels of unlock. Elder robes for all was a bit stupid.
It could have gone, Elder for pre-9, Master for CU, Knight for pre-CU 2 weeks before the NGE type deal. This way each level got somthing for the effort etc.. (I should say title more so then robe, I hate the robes) --
The FRS robes should have never been made into mere loot that was just degrading and sad... a Robe once earned made into a looted item off some Mob or a Animal... oh yeah, that is a good idea.
I think overall it went bad from the get go, If I had to put a timeframe of when the game went sour I would say about pub-8-9 at the latest.
Ideas to market the game obvioulsy just got silly at the holocron Xmas stage.
To bad though, I think Jedi had alot of promise, but human nature, marketing, some serious jealousy and anger made it into somthing that people spit on. I went from being offered all kinds of help at the start, people offering true support to people wanting to destory me, nerf us.. remove us from the game all in a mere 1.5 years.... it sucked going out like that.
As I have said before though, I am very thankful to have been part of it. I miss the help and team driven help we did for each other.
At one time there was no reason to argue or hate.. we all just wanted to stay alive lol.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
1) visibility
2) jedi TEF
3) perma death
lots of jedi running around problem.....solved!
These are just three things that make a pre-9 Jedi different from a NGE Jedi... there is tons more but this alone would change the game and make them scream so loud that even the NGE fanbois would quit.
I mean crap, they complain about a Elder freaking robe.... give me a break. Pirrg would cry for 10 days straight lol.
Imagine telling the NGE Jedi they would now start to be changed into the CU loss system even... just XP loss and Decay -- !@!! lol -- I mean look at what Decay has made people post???? JUST DECAY??? - tell them they will lose a skill or money when getting killed and watch them scream..lol
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
1) visibility
2) jedi TEF
3) perma death
lots of jedi running around problem.....solved!
Woooooooooooo YEAH
/cheer
/whistle
/applaud
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
1) visibility
2) jedi TEF
3) perma death
lots of jedi running around problem.....solved!
Woooooooooooo YEAH
/cheer
/whistle
/applaud
At least you support the hard Jedi version lol.
I agree, I do miss it and the game alone with it.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
After CU, level was everything there was left. In my book, grinding under such constraint is insanely boring. You look at number, and spin away.
Pre-cu it mattered which mob you chose. Even driving to village, and getting ambushed by ancient rancors would quickly put a 500 tick mind disease on you. Leaving you with over 1000 mind wounds in a minute. Better hope you had some brandy handy.
Grinding faction NPCs was cool if you could handle the ranged damage.
Figuring little tricks. For example, wearing mini suit was the norm. But I found out, that melee mobs hit 90% of the time into gloves. So, I purchased 10 sets of gloves, and used clothing for the rest. Saved tons of money, and only took minimally more damage. This didn't apply to all mobs.
Raptors. On Endor. Evil. Very evil. Instant death to most even buffed. Very dangerous.
Nova troopers. Hits hard, hits fast, lives long.
Klicknicks? (the wild sort). Stalker. Can't outrun it, it'll chase forever.
Want to loot some crystals on dant from force cave? Cool, 90% armor, I should be fine. Of course, they use force powers that ignore armor.
Want to go after krayt? Hope that someone can manage agro, or that your doc stocked up on state heals and rez packs.
Want to escape, heh, 15 second timer till bike. 15 second for pets, 15 seconds for camps.
Got wounds? Got BF? How much more damage will BF give you?
Armor getting worn down? Is it time to repeair, or can you handle extra damage.
What's the filling on brandy, what's the duration, can you chain two?
CU killed so much. Did it improve anything?
Perhaps, but at a high cost.
But don't forget, there was a very long period between pub9 and CU. Many, if not most pre-cu Jedi come from that period. So even if perma death was gone, everything else was still there.
-- Agreed, But see this comes from a tougher time in the game all around... not CU time. The aspects were different. Simply ask this:
What was your risk and loss factor then?
CU at best was XP loss, little to none 225k that I could get back in hours. See, I was 10 mill in the hole that I got out of in two weeks. TRUST me in the prior system no way would it have been that fast.
How strong were the people and how many of them could come after you?
Now let's add this in (as why it was hard in the aftermath) -- I will give you a example -- because this is somthing you just could not have known.
I'm on Dath hunting alone... I am randomly going to lairs in the middle of nowhere --(No terms to use to make missons) -- we had to hide due to the TEF we had that would be live for 5 mins or so after one swing or heal.
Ok so what did that mean? That meant that ANY OPPOSITE FACTION person , group or player could attack you -- but see, they had nothing to lose, decay -- that was it.
SO that meant that a 3 man team could come by , see you (because the tef would make you RED ALREADY -- not blue, BUT RED AND overt) -- So, you see that.. BUT wait there is more...
Back then we had nothing to midigate stats-- thats right we had 0 Defense... not some, not a little but 0!! So this means a few things, we only had the armor and health buff and a spice or two to save our ass BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!!
Guess what else we didnt have? I did not have force run! Yep... it was not around then...lol, guess what else... your gonna love this. WE HAD 0 TERRAIN NEGO, thats right... A scout could move better then us... so, understand this.. I could not midigate Stasis attacks, had 0 Defenses other then the armor, could not burst run for shit because we could not even go up a hill fast.. AND if I did die I could lose a skill or life that would take 7-10 days to decay off. Now let's keep going because there is more... NOW, if I lived... IF.... I now have drawn massive visibility fighting someone -- BUT guess what??? We did not know how it worked, this was a time when they did not tell us how it worked..SO YOU GUESSED!!! Thats right, some of us thought a buddy did not give visibility... we were not told how it worked.. in fact we had no clue how it worked, did not know what gave us up to the terminals even. --- But let's not stop there.
Ok, so you know you had shrines to go to in the CU after 9 deal? You got those because of us.. We did not have those.. We had the same cloner you did. So let's add in this great loss feature... Because it made it worse.. SO say I did not live and I did die... well how was I killed??? Odds are it was with SABER IN HAND... Guess what? We went to the cloner? Guess what was in hand? -- But even worse.. guess what carried over??? Yep the Tef-- also igniting the Saber therfore putting you back into visibility and then also in a Outpost with OP FACTION PEOPLE THAT WOULD KILL YOU.
SO on top of your first death, you could die more only making it worse... But lets not forget having to wait 10 mins to board a shuttle, (no ships to move around fast on your own) -- SO a BH could be coming and you cannot even leave. But see there is more... Once you got back or were able to be safe, you realized your saber decay was getting a beat down, you were at 40/900 or so because you had to use a saber to grind with --- not powers, they were lousy xp. SO when you went to add a Pearl to your saber.. (Which by the way was not a container) like a power up if you will, IT WOULD CRIT FAIL!!!! Now, let me explain this... we had gen 1 through 5, you would add a Pearl each time you wanted to upgrade the Generation, there was no taking it out, changing the color of it etc... it was a colored Pearl and you just used it)... but they were 5-9 mill each at best back then so it was not cheap on Bria anyway. SO you would start the crafting process (Which by the way was not known as perfect) -- You would see a system message of "Critical fail" which happend about 1 out 8 times we think.. What did this do??? Well YOU WOULD LOSE THE ENTIRE SABER to the wind.... YEP lose it all, no hilt, no pearls nothing... all of it gone in 12 seconds, 20 - 25 mill gone. So much for that saber or grind today, you have to go get your main to sell stuff and craft... enjoy -- YOUR Godamn right I did... I and I learned what a challenge was in a game thats for sure.
But see, this is just a drop in the buccket.
I was in the CU, helped out people...
Listen, ADK kits Saber changes, Robes, Defenses, Force run, XP loss only by death, TEFS!!!, planning, knowing where to go and when... And just simply making a freaking saber , not to mention the Shrines as a option to go to incase your camped... not to mention did you know we had to go to trainers???? we had to almost become visible to get trained back then as well....Oh yeah I could go on and on about the differences of the CU Jedi vs Pre-9 Jedi -- But I think I made my point about the word "hard" --
I say challenge and it was Hard for the reasons stated as a start... AGAIN because you did not experience it you cannot know or feel it.
It's funny though, imagine making your best saber and being on the 5th gen and it just goes poof..LOL, dude it was hard to get all that back-- trust me. (Oh sorry CHALLENGING)..lol
Now that you mention it, I remember crit fails. They were finally removed either in one of last pre-cu publishes or sometime later during CU. I must have gotten lucky though, never lost anything of worth to them, or at least I don't remember it anymore.
But I stand by what I said. Many things were always broken or borked in SWG. But give me the game above over anything post pub 13.
Including all the annoyances, like fire being the only dot that kills you on its own.
But this is also a list of all the things that players were asking to get fixed. Nobody who played then wanted this to be replaced with CU. Not to mention the NGE.
This is exactly the list of issues that were the problem, and not just for Jedi, but for everyone. Little and big annoyances. This is what needed fixing.
And yes, I knew everything you listed above, except the force run thing, and the crit fails I forgot about. So I, for one, know how much it took, even if I never experienced all of it.
But as I said, I played well before the CU. I did just about everything in that time, except getting up to knight. And I'll take any of those publishes over and post CU SWG. Interestingly, seems that many more would as well.
But roaming ganksquads of l337 Jedi .... just go straight to BSOD and get it over with.
-- Agreed, But see this comes from a tougher time in the game all around... not CU time. The aspects were different. Simply ask this:
What was your risk and loss factor then?
CU at best was XP loss, little to none 225k that I could get back in hours. See, I was 10 mill in the hole that I got out of in two weeks. TRUST me in the prior system no way would it have been that fast.
How strong were the people and how many of them could come after you?
Now let's add this in (as why it was hard in the aftermath) -- I will give you a example -- because this is somthing you just could not have known.
I'm on Dath hunting alone... I am randomly going to lairs in the middle of nowhere --(No terms to use to make missons) -- we had to hide due to the TEF we had that would be live for 5 mins or so after one swing or heal.
Ok so what did that mean? That meant that ANY OPPOSITE FACTION person , group or player could attack you -- but see, they had nothing to lose, decay -- that was it.
SO that meant that a 3 man team could come by , see you (because the tef would make you RED ALREADY -- not blue, BUT RED AND overt) -- So, you see that.. BUT wait there is more...
Back then we had nothing to midigate stats-- thats right we had 0 Defense... not some, not a little but 0!! So this means a few things, we only had the armor and health buff and a spice or two to save our ass BUT WAIT THERE IS MORE!!
Guess what else we didnt have? I did not have force run! Yep... it was not around then...lol, guess what else... your gonna love this. WE HAD 0 TERRAIN NEGO, thats right... A scout could move better then us... so, understand this.. I could not midigate Stasis attacks, had 0 Defenses other then the armor, could not burst run for shit because we could not even go up a hill fast.. AND if I did die I could lose a skill or life that would take 7-10 days to decay off. Now let's keep going because there is more... NOW, if I lived... IF.... I now have drawn massive visibility fighting someone -- BUT guess what??? We did not know how it worked, this was a time when they did not tell us how it worked..SO YOU GUESSED!!! Thats right, some of us thought a buddy did not give visibility... we were not told how it worked.. in fact we had no clue how it worked, did not know what gave us up to the terminals even. --- But let's not stop there.
Ok, so you know you had shrines to go to in the CU after 9 deal? You got those because of us.. We did not have those.. We had the same cloner you did. So let's add in this great loss feature... Because it made it worse.. SO say I did not live and I did die... well how was I killed??? Odds are it was with SABER IN HAND... Guess what? We went to the cloner? Guess what was in hand? -- But even worse.. guess what carried over??? Yep the Tef-- also igniting the Saber therfore putting you back into visibility and then also in a Outpost with OP FACTION PEOPLE THAT WOULD KILL YOU.
SO on top of your first death, you could die more only making it worse... But lets not forget having to wait 10 mins to board a shuttle, (no ships to move around fast on your own) -- SO a BH could be coming and you cannot even leave. But see there is more... Once you got back or were able to be safe, you realized your saber decay was getting a beat down, you were at 40/900 or so because you had to use a saber to grind with --- not powers, they were lousy xp. SO when you went to add a Pearl to your saber.. (Which by the way was not a container) like a power up if you will, IT WOULD CRIT FAIL!!!! Now, let me explain this... we had gen 1 through 5, you would add a Pearl each time you wanted to upgrade the Generation, there was no taking it out, changing the color of it etc... it was a colored Pearl and you just used it)... but they were 5-9 mill each at best back then so it was not cheap on Bria anyway. SO you would start the crafting process (Which by the way was not known as perfect) -- You would see a system message of "Critical fail" which happend about 1 out 8 times we think.. What did this do??? Well YOU WOULD LOSE THE ENTIRE SABER to the wind.... YEP lose it all, no hilt, no pearls nothing... all of it gone in 12 seconds, 20 - 25 mill gone. So much for that saber or grind today, you have to go get your main to sell stuff and craft... enjoy -- YOUR Godamn right I did... I and I learned what a challenge was in a game thats for sure.
But see, this is just a drop in the buccket.
I was in the CU, helped out people...
Listen, ADK kits Saber changes, Robes, Defenses, Force run, XP loss only by death, TEFS!!!, planning, knowing where to go and when... And just simply making a freaking saber , not to mention the Shrines as a option to go to incase your camped... not to mention did you know we had to go to trainers???? we had to almost become visible to get trained back then as well....Oh yeah I could go on and on about the differences of the CU Jedi vs Pre-9 Jedi -- But I think I made my point about the word "hard" --
I say challenge and it was Hard for the reasons stated as a start... AGAIN because you did not experience it you cannot know or feel it.
It's funny though, imagine making your best saber and being on the 5th gen and it just goes poof..LOL, dude it was hard to get all that back-- trust me. (Oh sorry CHALLENGING)..lol
Now that you mention it, I remember crit fails. They were finally removed either in one of last pre-cu publishes or sometime later during CU. I must have gotten lucky though, never lost anything of worth to them, or at least I don't remember it anymore.
But I stand by what I said. Many things were always broken or borked in SWG. But give me the game above over anything post pub 13.
Including all the annoyances, like fire being the only dot that kills you on its own.
But this is also a list of all the things that players were asking to get fixed. Nobody who played then wanted this to be replaced with CU. Not to mention the NGE.
This is exactly the list of issues that were the problem, and not just for Jedi, but for everyone. Little and big annoyances. This is what needed fixing.
And yes, I knew everything you listed above, except the force run thing, and the crit fails I forgot about. So I, for one, know how much it took, even if I never experienced all of it.
But as I said, I played well before the CU. I did just about everything in that time, except getting up to knight. And I'll take any of those publishes over and post CU SWG. Interestingly, seems that many more would as well.
I agree and would do it all again in a heart beat now doubt..
Seeing clicky Jedi crying about decay alone is just a joke.... worried about a hilt or some robe crap. Almost tells you the difference between Elder Jedi and NGE Jedi.
But yes, the game was much more difficult just to get by. Maybe that was the downfall, we will never know I fear.
KILLER AFTERNOON DEBATE THOUGH.... made the time go by as I got nothing done in the office LOLOL.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
That story brought a tear to my eye. Jedi how it was SUPPOSED to be.
Anyone who thinks otherwise was playing in the WRONG TIME PERIOD.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Anyways, very valid points, I think I can agree with Shayde, iskaerot, and basically everybody else, Jedi does not belong in the SWG time period, end of discussion.
"There's no star system Slave I can't reach, and there's no planet I can't find. There's nowhere in the Galaxy for you to run. Might as well give up now."
Boba Fett
Yeah, I agree now that Pre-Publish 9 was hard and challenging then. I would rather play then than now. Say what you want about me and my clicky Jedi, but I and many others would give it all up for the old game.
As far as the Elder thing goes, SOE really borked that one up. Village grinders got nothing for their efforts, Newly attained Padawans got the same reward as full temp Jedi. Full temp CU Jedi got the same rewards as Pre-Publish 9 Jedi and the people whose professions got deleted, didn't get shit either. So yeah, all that makes me pretty mad, but I've learned to roll with the punches when i was growing up. I just try to have fun now in the only Star Wars MMO that exists right now. Admittedly, my friends list is shrinking and with the next Publish date not even announced, I am tempted to cancel and wait to resub until the next Publish comes out.
Supposedly in the next Publish, Smugglers and Officers will finally be worth playing, traders will be worth playing, reverse engineering will be making a come back, which means I don't have to look like every other damn person out there, and decay may make a reappearance.
If none of that is up to snuff, I'm not sure what I will do. No MMO out there has an IP worth mentioning, because DDO has been over run by leet kids and the rest of the MMO's are just rehashed versions of earlier MMOs'. So if you've played one, you've played them all and in my case, I've actually played them all. So I am really hoping that this next Publish is good enough to hold me over to the next Publish or the next game or the release of Pre-NGE servers.
But, my hats off to you all that got Jedi Pre-Publish 9, but I don't have much respect for those CU Jedi that only had to grind their way to glory and occasionally have to regrind due to xp loss.
All I'm going to say is:
I support the version that when you heard the sound of a glowstick, you imidiately thought "WTF Vader?!?!?!" and ran oogle eyed to find the source of the sound, and then found a weakling with a saber being ripped to shreds by all the other people in the city who also saw enough to open up the TEF.
THAT was Star Wars.
Thats all I'm going to say.