Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by nthnaoun
I didn't know anyone who had all the xp ground out for all the FS boxes, but I did hear about it taking 2 weeks if you played night and day. Either way, the important thing is that they had to wait 18 weeks regardless to finish the Village. Unlocking FS is the fault of the community for making the path widely known. When I started playing, I was CL80 and FS within 5 days with the help of a friend who still plays and the FS guides. But never did I spend night and day grinding xp for my FS boxes. I spent 3-6 hours a day doing that, got halfway through the Village, quit for personal reasons, and then the NGE hit. If I would have known the NGE was coming, I would have rushed through the Village and unlocked. During the 2x xp you got 4x FS xp.
It may not seem like much, but it basically made 4 times less trips to village. So in 10-20 trips you could max out the xp.
During those times spin groups were running around, and I think those that combined grenades with AoE ran to village every 45 minutes. I don't really remember the details, I just heard from others. This is also why most didn't grind on kashyyk, since it was too slow to get all the way down.
So yea, don't underestimate the mess 2x xp made.
One of the servers crashed in coversion, so they got 4x xp. That meant 16x FS xp, or less than one weekend to fill in all the xp. Basically, that server got instant jedi right there.
The 4x xp because of conversion meant you only needed to get the ammount of xp to fill 7 FS boxes (xx34) and a bit more, rather than enough xp to fill 6x4 FS boxes.
Quite a difference. And the two weeks wasn't referring to 24/7, but perhaps 8 hours max gameplay per day.
I was there for many of the 2x xp, which is why I got to CL 80 so fast. But I didn't seriously start grinding FS xp until after the Combat xp conversion got nerfed. I was a MPike/TKM/0004 Doc and it took about 3 hours in a good spin group to get 1.5 mill and about 6 in a sad group. So I grinding about 3-6 hours a day, which would have had me unlocked on time in Mid November, but alas, I quit playing the game. I have a gaming cycle from what I've seen, where I play one game for 1-3 months and then I quit it for another and eventually I come full circle back to the first game I played. But I always came back to SWG and DAOC just about every other month. I would have unlocked eventually, but I wasn't on a mad race to get there, but now I pay for it since the NGE ruined all the work I put into unlocking half my branches.
yeah, I wrote this post before reading that there was a pre-holo period where getting Jedi was actually a challenge vrs only a grind. So I take my foot out of my mouth now. Either way, acting like a bunch of elitists because you unlocked Jedi at some point in time is still stupid and egotistical. It's just a game and people shouldn't take it so seriously. Don't get me wrong, when in-game I like to RP and don't like seeing people being stupid in-game, but when it's all said and done, if SOE were to cancel the game right then and there, I wouldn't care all that much. It's just a game, there are others out there, and I have a life. It would be sad, since I am a HUGE SW fan, but I would get on with my life, not be like the people who rant and complain for anywhere from 9months to 1 1/2 years.
You know, just make one post to SOE letting them know their mistake, leave it be and advise those that are asking about the game of your past experiences. No need for the two communities to fight or for people to be elitists because they played during such and such time and obtained this or that profession or title. In the real life scheme of things, none of this is important.
I would be interested in knowing what Pre-Publish 9 Jedi had to do to get Jedi, because I still have my doubts if it would have been a challenge for me or not.
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by iskareot I know that in the two weeks notice of the NGE , Brias FS grinding folks went nuts and tried to get that one box to be a Elder.. We had a small panic boom of back Jedi then. But let's face it....they are not the same kind of Jedi... this is like "Jedi Light" --- not exactly a smooth, force bar cost saber swinging crowd. More of a hack hack, poke poke slash crowd. This crew does not even know what the word "tef" meant nor understand risk or reward... (Although all of them want the reward without the work).... It takes nothing to survive as a Jedi in game now, as it should be. It is now a non-risk or hard class. It's just a Brawler with a glow stick.
So? Why are you being such a Elitist? What makes you above all others to be able to say who deserves Jedi and who doesn't when everyone pays the same a month. Have you forgotten that this is just a game and that whatever you do on it or accomplish on it amounts to jack in the real world? Then why take so much pride in unlocking a class that only required time sitting in front of the computer, instead of spending it with family, friends, whatever?
It really bugs the shit out of me when people like you act like you are all that, because you played the game during Tef season and when Jedi had risk vrs rewards. You act like those that didn't play then, never played a hard MMO or done anything that had good risk vrs rewards. I think you need to get over yourself and your Pre-NGE Jedi, because in reality, they aren't and never have been worth shit. It took no skill to become Jedi before, just the time it spent to grind. I've grinded in the hardest of grindfests...Lineage 2 and I don't go bragging about how I made it to this or that level while avoiding griefers in a open pvp game and while you lose xp to the point that you lose levels.
I think jedi should be hard to obtain, but a grind is not hard, it's just time consuming and stupid. Anyone that thinks a MMO is mentally challenging or hard is pretty sad. All they are is timesinks. All that is required to get ahead in a MMO, is the ability to shrug off real life for in-game grinding. So if anything, those with Pre-NGE Jedi, proved one thing...that they don't have a life and has screwed up priorities. Many are also elitists, thinking that because they grinded for months on end, that they are special and have the right to keep a class that everyone else pays the same for to themselves.
See the one thing you are using as a excuse is the word "Elitist" -- Listen, NOT only is that bullshit but see this is some peoples way of making the excuse to use thier Jedi and not feel as guilty or less rewarded.
You call it what you want.... but see, here is the difference... Those are the things I did to get my Jedi... those the steps I took and the steps and thought it took.
Your mad because you had it easier then I did..... and it shows, your anger of thinking you know about visibility or the risk, time involved in everything from getting Pearls, to resources to just staying alive... you have no idea..lol These are just facts man, deal with it. I know the difference between Hard Jedi and easy Jedi -- I have been one since this all started even the beta of it.
This has NOTHING to do with who paid what a month or how much time it took. These are just simply facts and by the measurement of effort for a "gift" if you will I wanted in the game. It has nothing to do with family, life, etc.. by all means this is a game. I played it alot when I could and liked the challenge.
Now then, as far as what you think... it almost cannot pertain, due to the fact you do not know or were not in the game. Sure it took time in front of the computer, no different then alot of things?? However as I said.. I know the difference, you do not. This is just a fact, as far as life or priorities, you think what you want..lol You seem just mad to know that people did this out there and enjoyed it. I have a great life, great family and great job etc.. sure it's only 100k plus, but I am loving it and have for a long time here.
Oh, but since everyone paid the same fee, then they too had the choice to go down the hard path... some did some did not want that. That is respectful. We never told anyone what to do in the game they bought, but when people want the same things or items someone else has as reward ingame without the effort that the previous person put forth there will be a problem.
Your confusing Elitist with Fact in this case, I did not even afk to get my Jedi, those that know me know I could not run a macro to save my life without getting pissed off. I enjoyed learning the game, understanding the risk and planning.
It took time effort and planning, it was harder, it was risk, it was one Hell of a challenge. Do not be mad it was better then, harder then and more rewarding. We are talking in THIS MMO, not others... this one.
Not my fault they changed it... if it was up to me it would have been harder.
I do get a kick out of seeing you get mad because I had it harder and you have it easy. That alone amazes me, you should just be happy you got Jedi with not that much invested. Most kids are now I think.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by Temploiter Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by iskareot I know that in the two weeks notice of the NGE , Brias FS grinding folks went nuts and tried to get that one box to be a Elder.. We had a small panic boom of back Jedi then. But let's face it....they are not the same kind of Jedi... this is like "Jedi Light" --- not exactly a smooth, force bar cost saber swinging crowd. More of a hack hack, poke poke slash crowd. This crew does not even know what the word "tef" meant nor understand risk or reward... (Although all of them want the reward without the work).... It takes nothing to survive as a Jedi in game now, as it should be. It is now a non-risk or hard class. It's just a Brawler with a glow stick.
So? Why are you being such a Elitist? What makes you above all others to be able to say who deserves Jedi and who doesn't when everyone pays the same a month. Have you forgotten that this is just a game and that whatever you do on it or accomplish on it amounts to jack in the real world? Then why take so much pride in unlocking a class that only required time sitting in front of the computer, instead of spending it with family, friends, whatever?
It really bugs the shit out of me when people like you act like you are all that, because you played the game during Tef season and when Jedi had risk vrs rewards. You act like those that didn't play then, never played a hard MMO or done anything that had good risk vrs rewards. I think you need to get over yourself and your Pre-NGE Jedi, because in reality, they aren't and never have been worth shit. It took no skill to become Jedi before, just the time it spent to grind. I've grinded in the hardest of grindfests...Lineage 2 and I don't go bragging about how I made it to this or that level while avoiding griefers in a open pvp game and while you lose xp to the point that you lose levels.
I think jedi should be hard to obtain, but a grind is not hard, it's just time consuming and stupid. Anyone that thinks a MMO is mentally challenging or hard is pretty sad. All they are is timesinks. All that is required to get ahead in a MMO, is the ability to shrug off real life for in-game grinding. So if anything, those with Pre-NGE Jedi, proved one thing...that they don't have a life and has screwed up priorities. Many are also elitists, thinking that because they grinded for months on end, that they are special and have the right to keep a class that everyone else pays the same for to themselves.
Somebody got a jedi after Publish 9...
No doubt way after it lol.. man, see this is somthing that went wrong with them, they got MAD because of the fact of the matter.
SO I say: I got Jedi when it was hard -- they get mad. He confuses Elitist with facts. But even worse assumes he knows what it was like, when he was not even in the game. Ok... sure lol I buy that.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by Temploiter
Somebody got a jedi after Publish 9...
yeah, I wrote this post before reading that there was a pre-holo period where getting Jedi was actually a challenge vrs only a grind. So I take my foot out of my mouth now. Either way, acting like a bunch of elitists because you unlocked Jedi at some point in time is still stupid and egotistical. It's just a game and people shouldn't take it so seriously. Don't get me wrong, when in-game I like to RP and don't like seeing people being stupid in-game, but when it's all said and done, if SOE were to cancel the game right then and there, I wouldn't care all that much. It's just a game, there are others out there, and I have a life. It would be sad, since I am a HUGE SW fan, but I would get on with my life, not be like the people who rant and complain for anywhere from 9months to 1 1/2 years.
You know, just make one post to SOE letting them know their mistake, leave it be and advise those that are asking about the game of your past experiences. No need for the two communities to fight or for people to be elitists because they played during such and such time and obtained this or that profession or title. In the real life scheme of things, none of this is important.
I would be interested in knowing what Pre-Publish 9 Jedi had to do to get Jedi, because I still have my doubts if it would have been a challenge for me or not.
Rofl -- it would have been. By what you have posted so far, you would have been mad at the first loss of your saber while crafting it would have pissed you off. (it did me, back then 5 or 8 mill was alot) -- But the point is moot, saying "Well I was there back then" is kinda silly.. you were not, just a fact.
I do like the people that say, "Yeah it was easy all you had to do was......." Yet, they never did it or tried to or better yet -- quit.
No different then anything in life. RL is more important, if you can do it then you do... if you can't you do not bitch or get mad because somone else did.
Again, people being mad because some people applied different effort in different parts of the game then is just bazzar but human nature at it's best.
In the testing of Jedi there was two sides, ones that wanted it because it was going to be great and those that wanted it because it would be a powerful class. In the end both sides got what they wanted, but with risks... which was great but seeing people complain about it that were never one is just soooo freaking funny.
Again, human nature bigtime played a role in changing alot of this I think.
As Grant said at the last Fan Fest, alot of people wanted to be Jedi but did not want to work for it, what better way to get people into the NGE then to give that up? -- Yep.. I can see that.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
I had to grind 32 professions worth of combat XP (village), and go through 18 weeks of gated quests.
A lot of the early hologrinders and pre hologrinders unlocked well short of that...
Even if you HAD to grind all 32, many of them could be done AFK, and many used 3rd party macro programs such as Auto-IT, and it could be done in <18 weeks...
Originally posted by iskareot No doubt way after it lol.. man, see this is somthing that went wrong with them, they got MAD because of the fact of the matter. SO I say: I got Jedi when it was hard -- they get mad. He confuses Elitist with facts. But even worse assumes he knows what it was like, when he was not even in the game. Ok... sure lol I buy that.
You can know something without actually experiencing it. Do you need to touch fire to know it is hot? Do you need to step in front of a car to know that it will hurt? Do you need to see a million dollars to know it exists?
The answer is no. I know how it was with Tefs, BH's and visibility, because I had Vets that made sure I knew what I missed and the difference between Village Jedi and Holo-grinder Jedi.
Do I get mad because you had to work hard to get your Jedi? No, I do not. What upsets me is the attitude that you all take on, just because you did something that others did not. That attitude is called Elitism. The attitude of thinking that you are better than another person because of something you did that another did not. That is the attitude I am getting from you and it is unbecoming of someone I know is more mature than that.
I would love to earn Jedi, rather than click on it. Many of us do and we keep asking for it. But SOE will not give it to us and took that ability away. I did not ask them to take the work out of getting Jedi. I would rather have to grind a year straight and earn my Jedi, than just click on it and it be worthless. But that's just me. I like to work for the things I value the most. In SWG, I valued Jedi and my guild the most. I worked hard (off and on) for Jedi and I worked hard to run a good RPing guild that people could have fun in.
There is also no need to throw around how much money you make. It doesn't impress me and you've done it several times on various threads. That is called bragging. Even though you tried to pass it off as modesty, you aren't fooling me.
Anyways, this arguing is stupid. We have more in common than you think and most of us would probably actually be friends in real life if we ever met. I am going to school for IT myself (career change), I have a family, love Star Wars, and love educating myself. All of those I have also gleaned from the same posts where you brag about your income.
Originally posted by Wildcat84 I had to grind 32 professions worth of combat XP (village), and go through 18 weeks of gated quests.
A lot of the early hologrinders and pre hologrinders unlocked well short of that...
Even if you HAD to grind all 32, many of them could be done AFK, and many used 3rd party macro programs such as Auto-IT, and it could be done in <18 weeks...
Yes and now, what you forgot was the time period -- what we were at and the level of inflation, harshisps in game, costs, population etc..
i.e. Pearls for instance, at the time I unlocked, they were NOT easy to get, the cost 5-8 mill on the server, were hard to take down and then would get you UN HIDDEN, in fact when and if people saw you buying pearls some of them would track you to just see if you had a Jedi for weeks.
Now then, I unlocked on like 23 I think. It was odd because at the time it was alot of profs, I did do them all though as I grinded my Jedi and had to park him.
Everything from knowing what visibility was (We did not even know) to getting better XP (at our time it was lower) --
So see because you did it in the village time alone is different by far.... by the time you unlocked, you did not have perma death or skill loss, you did not have a saber crit fail and blow up into nothing after spending 20 mill on it in the (Harder times to get 20 mill) of SWG.
So see the time period does play the larger role in this. Sure the village had alot of XP --- BUT you got some double days, never had to to change classes really, never pay to train even.... so many things contributed to our time fram difference that it is not really even comparable.
That is where people forget why it was harder... the time period.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
First, "Jedi was hard" is nonsense. It was always grind. Collect x ammount of xp, unlock Jedi.
Did it take more xp or more time long time ago? Definitely.
But now ask yourself this. Do you respect a factory worker who drills 12000 holes every day, every month, every year? Do you respect a kid working in sweatshop sewing nikes for dime a dozen?
Honestly, no you don't. And if you do, there' 1000 people who don't even want to know such people exist.
At one point in time, blacksmith was a respectable profession. Training took long, work was hard, but when you needed something crafted, they were the person to go to. There are no blacksmiths anymore, their work is done by robots and presses with a white collar supervisor pushing the buttons.
In the beginning, Jedi was an unknown, due to latency, there were none. But as more and more players unlocked, they started showing up and were rare. Some people got the privilige of playing them, others wanted to do so as well. But the only fact they became desirable, is because they were rare. Not because it was "hard" or "it took" long, but they were limited resource, a luxury, a commodity.
A lot of this "hard" also goes against some other realities, such as geo caves, DWB, black sun spawn... Not to mention the fight clubs.
Other say they did it the right way. There never was a right way. There was a threshold of xp that needed to be obtained, nothing more. There was no right or wrong, there was a one-dimensional indicator which at some point blinked and said you're now a Jedi.
But above all, Jedi ceased to exist with NGE. Why still go up in flames over how someone obtained it. Jedi no longer exists. There are 9 classes. There is no Jedi. Does anyone go into KOTOR forums and yell at people for playing as Jedi when they didn't earn it? Or lego star wars for that matter?
A game sets forth a set of rules. Follow them, and you get a reward. Jedi was no different. At no point before NGE. But motives were different. Lucky few who managed to unlock first got to play as something special. By obeying some arbitrary rules coupled with luck they got to be the first of what was many to come. But what was your ultimate motive? Was it to play as Jedi, or to look down on everyone? Sadly, there never were many Jedi in SWG. A handful perhaps. The rest were people who grinded faster than anyone else.
Everyone who got jedi did what the game required them to do. Did anyone really go around saying that nobody should play after vehicles since they had to do it the hard way and they earned it, and vehicles are for noobs?
Yes, it is elitist behaviour. Just like any other claim "oh, in my time we had to do ...". It's a game. It has its rules. It's always your choice what to do. And if they change, it's not the player's fault.
Why not take a different stance. Why not assume that you got to have the privilige of playing as Jedi when there were only 5 of them in entire game? Why not go around saying that you were rewarded for grinding BH with no vehicles when you got to kill your first perma-death Jedi? Why not say that every second of your grind was worth it when you unlocked knight? Or ranked #1 in FRS?
What was your reason for grinding then? If it didn't bring you satisfaction, why wish misery upon others? Because that is indeed elitist.
When NGE came, many stopped playing Jedi. No matter how it was earned. They moved to other toons, or quit the game entirely. But there's no rational reason to hate the players for the game that has changed.
But do ask yourself this: Why did you grind Jedi? Then ask yourself, how does this answer fit into description that Jedi was once hard and nobody else deserved it.
Just like any other activity in grind based game, ask why do you do it. Every single thing is an achievement to someone. Even buying the first shuttle ticket. Seeing first Krayt. Looting first tusken robe. What makes Jedi grind so much different? Why should anyone go around saying that tusken robes are worthless and anyone keeping the is an idiot?
But motives... They do differ from person to person. And motives for obtaining Jedi were very diverse. So what exactly is it that makes one Jedi more deserved than the other, if not the x.y million xp to unlock it? Who deserves it?
IMHO, less than a handful of players that ever played SWG. Those are the only ones that "deserve" Jedi title. And no, they don't need to get force sensitive or Jedi xp for that.
I hated there were any Jedi in the game. Lore loopholes or not, there were only 3 Jedi during the time period of the game, non of which could be player characters.
Alpha classes in a game that has PvP WILL lead to problems, and it did.
For those that say "It's Star Wars, there have to be Jedi!" I don't remember any Jedi playable characters in Rebel Assault, TIE Fighter, X-Wing, or the Battlefront Series, which are the ones I played. There is no rule that says, if it has a Star Wars lable it's my basic human rights being trampled if my toon doesn't have a glowing lazer sword in front of him.
For those that say "It's Star Wars, there have to be Jedi!" I don't remember any Jedi playable characters in Rebel Assault, TIE Fighter, X-Wing, or the Battlefront Series, which are the ones I played. There is no rule that says, if it has a Star Wars lable it's my basic human rights being trampled if my toon doesn't have a glowing lazer sword in front of him.
There was Vader in all the space series. But it was a flight sim, so playable character is a non-issue there.
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Temploiter
For those that say "It's Star Wars, there have to be Jedi!" I don't remember any Jedi playable characters in Rebel Assault, TIE Fighter, X-Wing, or the Battlefront Series, which are the ones I played. There is no rule that says, if it has a Star Wars lable it's my basic human rights being trampled if my toon doesn't have a glowing lazer sword in front of him.
There was Vader in all the space series. But it was a flight sim, so playable character is a non-issue there.
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
Originally posted by Rekrul And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars.
I didn't mention them because I didn't play them, as I stated.
So, Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars, unless it's one of those games I mentioned, apparently. And there could have been NPC Jedi in SWG that roamed the universe fighting evil or good players and NPCs, that would have been awesome.
There was 1 SW MMO, SWG, it was designed to not have Jedi. Jedi were added in as a late decision. That one SW MMO failed. I'm not saying one is due to the other, but saying you "can't" have a SW MMO without Jedi and then knowing SW:G is the only thing to base that on, and SW:G is a stinking failure, it's a weak argument.
Originally posted by Temploiter Originally posted by Rekrul
There was Vader in all the space series. But it was a flight sim, so playable character is a non-issue there.
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
See.
See what?
Mr. Merchandise is running a consortium banking on Star Wars license. Their business model is based around milking a 20 or 25 year old movie made by an enthusiastic geekish director.
There is no cult. There is no religion. There is no "true" Star Wars. It's a license designed to milk fans.
There are non-Jedi aspects in Star Wars universe. But inevitably, they are tied with Jedi. This non-jedi stance is rather annoying. It's like claiming Lord of the Rings is about Wilebur the Hermit. A person never depicted in books, but referenced in extended material mentioned on a note found in Tolkien's drawer. LOTR is about good vs. evil, fuzzy hobbits going against big bad Saruman. Huge battles, orcs, trolls, fearless riders and powerful wizards. There's plenty of lore, but it's extremly simple. Wizards are part of every aspect, even if not directly present. The are essential part of every story, and have shaped the land. Orcs and elves are also part of every story. Just like dragons, spiders, hawks and other mythical cratures.
Look at it this way. LOTRO will (apparently) not allow pvp or playing of the evil side. Do you think it will be a success? Or will players unanimously demand that? Or will the game bomb just like the "purist" DnD did? What exactly was it that DnD failed to deliver? Or can a mainstream game be really made by trying to apease both?
There was 1 SW MMO, SWG, it was designed to not have Jedi. Jedi were added in as a late decision. That one SW MMO failed. I'm not saying one is due to the other, but saying you "can't" have a SW MMO without Jedi and then knowing SW:G is the only thing to base that on, and SW:G is a stinking failure, it's a weak argument.
Jedi skills and gear was part of original install, publish 0. All the data is in there, including the original data structures. It just wasn't finished at release. But it was part of the original design, they just weren't sure how exactly it will work.
Originally posted by Rekrul First, "Jedi was hard" is nonsense. It was always grind. Collect x ammount of xp, unlock Jedi.
Did it take more xp or more time long time ago? Definitely.
But now ask yourself this. Do you respect a factory worker who drills 12000 holes every day, every month, every year? Do you respect a kid working in sweatshop sewing nikes for dime a dozen?
Honestly, no you don't. And if you do, there' 1000 people who don't even want to know such people exist.
At one point in time, blacksmith was a respectable profession. Training took long, work was hard, but when you needed something crafted, they were the person to go to. There are no blacksmiths anymore, their work is done by robots and presses with a white collar supervisor pushing the buttons.
In the beginning, Jedi was an unknown, due to latency, there were none. But as more and more players unlocked, they started showing up and were rare. Some people got the privilige of playing them, others wanted to do so as well. But the only fact they became desirable, is because they were rare. Not because it was "hard" or "it took" long, but they were limited resource, a luxury, a commodity.
A lot of this "hard" also goes against some other realities, such as geo caves, DWB, black sun spawn... Not to mention the fight clubs.
Other say they did it the right way. There never was a right way. There was a threshold of xp that needed to be obtained, nothing more. There was no right or wrong, there was a one-dimensional indicator which at some point blinked and said you're now a Jedi.
But above all, Jedi ceased to exist with NGE. Why still go up in flames over how someone obtained it. Jedi no longer exists. There are 9 classes. There is no Jedi. Does anyone go into KOTOR forums and yell at people for playing as Jedi when they didn't earn it? Or lego star wars for that matter?
A game sets forth a set of rules. Follow them, and you get a reward. Jedi was no different. At no point before NGE. But motives were different. Lucky few who managed to unlock first got to play as something special. By obeying some arbitrary rules coupled with luck they got to be the first of what was many to come. But what was your ultimate motive? Was it to play as Jedi, or to look down on everyone? Sadly, there never were many Jedi in SWG. A handful perhaps. The rest were people who grinded faster than anyone else.
Everyone who got jedi did what the game required them to do. Did anyone really go around saying that nobody should play after vehicles since they had to do it the hard way and they earned it, and vehicles are for noobs?
Yes, it is elitist behaviour. Just like any other claim "oh, in my time we had to do ...". It's a game. It has its rules. It's always your choice what to do. And if they change, it's not the player's fault.
Why not take a different stance. Why not assume that you got to have the privilige of playing as Jedi when there were only 5 of them in entire game? Why not go around saying that you were rewarded for grinding BH with no vehicles when you got to kill your first perma-death Jedi? Why not say that every second of your grind was worth it when you unlocked knight? Or ranked #1 in FRS?
What was your reason for grinding then? If it didn't bring you satisfaction, why wish misery upon others? Because that is indeed elitist.
When NGE came, many stopped playing Jedi. No matter how it was earned. They moved to other toons, or quit the game entirely. But there's no rational reason to hate the players for the game that has changed.
But do ask yourself this: Why did you grind Jedi? Then ask yourself, how does this answer fit into description that Jedi was once hard and nobody else deserved it.
Just like any other activity in grind based game, ask why do you do it. Every single thing is an achievement to someone. Even buying the first shuttle ticket. Seeing first Krayt. Looting first tusken robe. What makes Jedi grind so much different? Why should anyone go around saying that tusken robes are worthless and anyone keeping the is an idiot?
But motives... They do differ from person to person. And motives for obtaining Jedi were very diverse. So what exactly is it that makes one Jedi more deserved than the other, if not the x.y million xp to unlock it? Who deserves it?
IMHO, less than a handful of players that ever played SWG. Those are the only ones that "deserve" Jedi title. And no, they don't need to get force sensitive or Jedi xp for that.
Originally posted by nthnaoun Originally posted by iskareot No doubt way after it lol.. man, see this is somthing that went wrong with them, they got MAD because of the fact of the matter. SO I say: I got Jedi when it was hard -- they get mad. He confuses Elitist with facts. But even worse assumes he knows what it was like, when he was not even in the game. Ok... sure lol I buy that.
You can know something without actually experiencing it. Do you need to touch fire to know it is hot? Do you need to step in front of a car to know that it will hurt? Do you need to see a million dollars to know it exists?
The answer is no. I know how it was with Tefs, BH's and visibility, because I had Vets that made sure I knew what I missed and the difference between Village Jedi and Holo-grinder Jedi.
Do I get mad because you had to work hard to get your Jedi? No, I do not. What upsets me is the attitude that you all take on, just because you did something that others did not. That attitude is called Elitism. The attitude of thinking that you are better than another person because of something you did that another did not. That is the attitude I am getting from you and it is unbecoming of someone I know is more mature than that.
I would love to earn Jedi, rather than click on it. Many of us do and we keep asking for it. But SOE will not give it to us and took that ability away. I did not ask them to take the work out of getting Jedi. I would rather have to grind a year straight and earn my Jedi, than just click on it and it be worthless. But that's just me. I like to work for the things I value the most. In SWG, I valued Jedi and my guild the most. I worked hard (off and on) for Jedi and I worked hard to run a good RPing guild that people could have fun in.
There is also no need to throw around how much money you make. It doesn't impress me and you've done it several times on various threads. That is called bragging. Even though you tried to pass it off as modesty, you aren't fooling me.
Anyways, this arguing is stupid. We have more in common than you think and most of us would probably actually be friends in real life if we ever met. I am going to school for IT myself (career change), I have a family, love Star Wars, and love educating myself. All of those I have also gleaned from the same posts where you brag about your income.
But as you did -you tried to belittle my RL as the excuse for me getting Jedi as in the past.. that is my response for my success, each to his own. I hope all people are as happy as I am. I am content and very thankful for my fun I had in the game.
See the one thing that you forgot to mention is that (I am always saying this) I am very very thankful I was able to get Jedi then, I enjoyed it, loved it very much and it was a great break from RL issues or normal crap.
Again, your using the word Elitism in place of my doing somthing in the game at a certain time when I know it was harder, you know and so do others. Just use the facts then, no emotion at all. This is not a person thing... this is a fact thing. -- Jedi was harder then, much harder to get, obtain, maintain and be. Fact... in all aspects of it period. Be mad at that all you want perse, but again... as I just said that was a fact.
I was able to be FS in 2 days on my main (almost automatically due to me having done all I did on my main) when the village kicked in. I know the difference from the village Jedi to prior, I sure as Hell know the differnce in the CU and the NGE, well.... we do not need to even discuss that one lol.
The point is, call it whatever you want. I enjoyed it, loved it and was lucky enough to be successful with it. I helped SOO many people and even worked with both factions on Bria to have fun. I was not always known as the NGE hater I am now, I was a true supporter of the game. Had fun, enjoyed the server and the population. I stood up for Jedi and I liked to think I was a very Honorable Jedi on the server, I was never camped always fought , was not a runner.. and I was even a Enhancer template... I knew my role and also knew my limits. I never once showboated, showed off, or made a ass out of myself. I took pride in being a good Jedi Knight that helped people in game and aided them when I could.
All things aside the one thing this game was more then most was the close nit cache of people. I have played games since my Ti-99 days and the people in SWG were some of the best back then. Even Op factions knew when to fight and when to be friendly.
I do miss that game. No doubt of that.
Also since you do not know, yes this is going to be hard to believe but get this.. Imagine having people offer to help you as a Jedi, support you, look out for you, hide you. Jedi was a solo grind, but you depended on ALOT OF PEOPLE to get what you needed.
From having to fund him, (Which was unreal by the way)
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by Temploiter Well, I obviously have trampled on some Jedi-loving toes. But, here are some things that can't be refuted: 1) Alpha classes in PvP-enabled MMO's are problematic 2) There is no rule that playable Jedi need to be in Star Wars games (in fact several best-selling games didn't). 3) The more Jedi that appeared in SW:G the less subscriptions there were.
1) --Well see as for one I only counter that with Risk vs Reward does work, except there is a balance to that as well. (You have to stick to it)...lol They took more of the risk away causing a ripple effect that we all saw.
2) -- Again as a goal or game driven end game goal, it was a great idea.. after all it was a game based on the Star Wars world.. (I do not hold them to a timeline as they fucked that up from the start)...
3) Jedi was not the reason that subs were less, you even know this lol. Crap if anythng Jedi were the die hard subs that stayed in the game. They just needed to tickle the other classes to make them as much eye candy as Jedi. They did a poor ass job of explaining that Jedi was a goal, a game reward to earn like any other item in the game. But they did not do this. But yea, Jedi as a free class... well that did put the icing on the cake thats for sure.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by Temploiter Well, I obviously have trampled on some Jedi-loving toes. But, here are some things that can't be refuted: 1) Alpha classes in PvP-enabled MMO's are problematic 2) There is no rule that playable Jedi need to be in Star Wars games (in fact several best-selling games didn't). 3) The more Jedi that appeared in SW:G the less subscriptions there were.
1) GW is introducing alpha mode with Nightfall, where one class can take god form for a certain period of time, under certain requirements. And yes, it's pvp based game. And no, it's not unbalancing.
2) Not in *a* game. But in an avatar based MMO they are almost certain. Flight simulators don't really sell anymore and they have a strictly limited market. This is why there's no follow-ups to the x-wing/tie fighter series. Microsoft was last to attempt fantasy flight simulator in a large scale and it didn't come out as a success. Eve also shows the market size for that specific segment.
3) Jedi was the only thing people wanted because it was rare and powerful. Once it became dime a dozen, they realized the only thing worth getting in SWG was worthless, and the game sucked overall. And majority never cared about lore anyway. They wanted alpha class.
Originally posted by Rekrul First, "Jedi was hard" is nonsense. It was always grind. Collect x ammount of xp, unlock Jedi. Ahh but see that was one part-- UNLOCKING once done, you forget alot of things were unknown, the risks involved were much higher on loss -- you keep forgetting this. Sure it was a grind...alone and long. But you forgot the element of Decay was fast, sabers would crit fail and you would have nothing if you did not plan with your crafter. You forgot to mention you had to watch over your shoulder every freaking single second to see if a red dot gank team was coming to put you into the decay death hole. I wont even get into 20 man gank squads, BHs all over the place, weapons , armor so many other elements that have been removed as a hardship. You forgot the cost factor and economy from back then.... so man things were different then. You say it was not hard, I say wrong... I had to KNOW plan and watch my ass everywhere I went. It was not a (EASY GO WHERE YOU WANT WHEN YOU WANT) type game. I guess if this is the case and it was not hard then, I guess saying the game is easy now is not even remotely close. I guess now the NGE is meant for the 3rd or 5th graders perse at that statement. If your basing this on how hard somthing is or was (And if you know) then I know-- it was much harder then compared to now ...lol I don't think you even have to worry about a mob killing you ...ever...
Did it take more xp or more time long time ago? Definitely. Agreed, it was painfully slow with loss being greater then the gain at times. Checks and Balances at it's best... just a fact I accepted it.
But now ask yourself this. Do you respect a factory worker who drills 12000 holes every day, every month, every year? Do you respect a kid working in sweatshop sewing nikes for dime a dozen?
Honestly, no you don't. And if you do, there' 1000 people who don't even want to know such people exist. Not the same thing, because Jedi was a desired class, not the common worker (or if you will sub-par worker) your trying to compare a apple and a orange and it wont work. I did not want a factory worker nor did others (OBVIOUSLY lol)... hence the Jedi now..to deflate that statement.
At one point in time, blacksmith was a respectable profession. Training took long, work was hard, but when you needed something crafted, they were the person to go to. There are no blacksmiths anymore, their work is done by robots and presses with a white collar supervisor pushing the buttons. Your confusing respect with somthing desired and known as the or one of the GOALS in game. Do not do that. (no offense to any crafters in the game even as I WAS ONE) -- nine times out of ten people did not say OH OH I WANT TO BE A SURVEYER --- I loved it though myself lol.
In the beginning, Jedi was an unknown, due to latency, there were none. But as more and more players unlocked, they started showing up and were rare. Some people got the privilige of playing them, others wanted to do so as well. But the only fact they became desirable, is because they were rare. Not because it was "hard" or "it took" long, but they were limited resource, a luxury, a commodity. Won't dissagree but the hard part was secondary due to the games mechs. Your trying to put the two together don't. The function of Jedi not to mention the issue and bugs was not at all easy. Life as a Jedi toon back then was not the same as a normal toons you know that, if you need help knowing this let me know. Example: when a server crashed and you died, not only did you have to park your Jedi for 7 - 10 days BUT you could lose a life or skill, not to mention visibility coming back into the world, causing even more issues down the road. (This is JUST ONE)...I was in beta until the NGE and I can tell you that a normal class toon and Jedi were completely different. But if you were in pre-9 I guess you would know this, if you were not then I understand your confusion.
A lot of this "hard" also goes against some other realities, such as geo caves, DWB, black sun spawn... Not to mention the fight clubs. Don't know... people or all classes used these to grind in.. so pretty much this is a flush for most.. I did not experience this myself. I did professions myself from grinding them in all kinds of places..enjoying the game like all others did.
Other say they did it the right way. There never was a right way. There was a threshold of xp that needed to be obtained, nothing more. There was no right or wrong, there was a one-dimensional indicator which at some point blinked and said you're now a Jedi. Hmm, ok this is a bit watered down.. but ok, Yes you had to do a set amount of professions, in a certain time that cost credits to do, with weapons that decayed, cost credits, with armor, with time on top of learning how to do them, while planning for your Jedi upon unlock so ok I can kinda agree with this. You had to do things to become Jedi -- Yep true. Granted to unlock it took more then just a click of a picture of Luke but I guess I understand this.. the real grind did not start until you unlocked.
But above all, Jedi ceased to exist with NGE. Why still go up in flames over how someone obtained it. Jedi no longer exists. There are 9 classes. There is no Jedi. Does anyone go into KOTOR forums and yell at people for playing as Jedi when they didn't earn it? Or lego star wars for that matter? Nope, I love those games though, both fun and smooth. Intended that way from the start to finish though.
A game sets forth a set of rules. Follow them, and you get a reward. Jedi was no different. At no point before NGE. But motives were different. Lucky few who managed to unlock first got to play as something special. By obeying some arbitrary rules coupled with luck they got to be the first of what was many to come. But what was your ultimate motive? Was it to play as Jedi, or to look down on everyone? Sadly, there never were many Jedi in SWG. A handful perhaps. The rest were people who grinded faster than anyone else. To play Jedi, in beta we saw some -- but it was just a added bonus to doing well in the game. IT was MY GOAL, nobody elses. It had 0 to do with my guild, friends anyone. Most of us were like this, you did know this I'm sure but it was. People have confused my or our goals of getting Jedi as a ego driven thought. Nope, if that was the case then I would not have spent the time learning and growing him with his reputation in the game.. NOW the Ebayers on the other hand..lol different story.
Everyone who got jedi did what the game required them to do. Did anyone really go around saying that nobody should play after vehicles since they had to do it the hard way and they earned it, and vehicles are for noobs?
Nope but again, apple vs a orange. Sorry you just can't do it.. I understand your trying to but you cannot.
Yes, it is elitist behaviour. Just like any other claim "oh, in my time we had to do ...". It's a game. It has its rules. It's always your choice what to do. And if they change, it's not the player's fault. Again, just look at the facts of the matter then -- if you confuse this with elitist behaviour then it tells me a few things, one you were NOT a Jedi in this time frame so to make a point I can safely say (You do not know) exactly what it was like. While you use that term as a excuse think of it as more of a fact. We did what we had to, enjoyed it and it was a challenge period... no bullshit, no joke.. call it what it was.
Why not take a different stance. Why not assume that you got to have the privilige of playing as Jedi when there were only 5 of them in entire game? Why not go around saying that you were rewarded for grinding BH with no vehicles when you got to kill your first perma-death Jedi? Why not say that every second of your grind was worth it when you unlocked knight? Or ranked #1 in FRS? I am very very thankful for my time as a Jedi then, I never make light of that at all ever... not sure what you mean here. Trust me when I say that ALOT of the old Knights are very thankful to have unlocked and been in the game then under those rules and issues. Also not having vehicles was rough... but we ALL experienced that hardship not by CHOICE...other things you compared this to was by choice.. please understand that. OH and I never made it past rank 1 for two days, I never did that fightclub bullshit and was to respected to even think to do so. Not my style at all I was a fighter, knew my role in the game was to be hunted and welcomed it.
What was your reason for grinding then? If it didn't bring you satisfaction, why wish misery upon others? Because that is indeed elitist. Hmm, not sure your thoughts here... I was not this type of Jedi so I'm guessing you have someone else in mind your mad at. I enjoyed my Jedi very much. I did not actually always worry about someone else that was mad or jealous. I let it go and went about my business, hard not to.
When NGE came, many stopped playing Jedi. No matter how it was earned. They moved to other toons, or quit the game entirely. But there's no rational reason to hate the players for the game that has changed.
Nope, don't hate them.. I feel sorry for them myself actually, but others may.. I cannot speak for them. I do wish SOE gave everyone the chance to become a Jedi in the challenging times.. they would have liked it I think. I think as a goal there was nothing wrong with Jedi being made into just that.
But do ask yourself this: Why did you grind Jedi? Then ask yourself, how does this answer fit into description that Jedi was once hard and nobody else deserved it. Wrong... you will not find one of us old Knights that said nobody else deserved it, not me or I can almost bet any single one of them. In fact every single one of us would have loved to see each person earn it just the same. Crap man I fought for this, you kidding???? I wanted every single player to have the right to experience what I did... it was so much fun and challenging... I think that everyone deserved that chance hands down.
Just like any other activity in grind based game, ask why do you do it. Every single thing is an achievement to someone. Even buying the first shuttle ticket. Seeing first Krayt. Looting first tusken robe. What makes Jedi grind so much different? Why should anyone go around saying that tusken robes are worthless and anyone keeping the is an idiot? I looked at it as a in game goal.. like everything else in any game.. then experiencing it as well.. (So um Ok???) this is bad?? lol
But motives... They do differ from person to person. And motives for obtaining Jedi were very diverse. So what exactly is it that makes one Jedi more deserved than the other, if not the x.y million xp to unlock it? Who deserves it? The ones that wanted it?? CHOICE... it was always a word I used alot back then.. CHOICE was somthing you did HAVE vs now. SOE took that away and I hated them for it, no different then most.. Sorry not my fault. If people wanted to put forth the effort and time then we were all for it at least most of us were thats for sure. As Clint Eastwood said as "Joseph Money".. "Deserves got nuthin to do with it".....
IMHO, less than a handful of players that ever played SWG. Those are the only ones that "deserve" Jedi title. And no, they don't need to get force sensitive or Jedi xp for that. Glad I ran through your list for your approval lol... but like I said, most of us did it based on OUR CHOICE, not what other players wanted? In other words, we commited to it, we did not make or force anyone else into doing it. If we did not like it, trust me I know I would have NOT DONE IT.
Sorry, but I have to QFE
Obriak... spoke like a true NGE Jedi lol..
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Temploiter Well, I obviously have trampled on some Jedi-loving toes. But, here are some things that can't be refuted: 1) Alpha classes in PvP-enabled MMO's are problematic 2) There is no rule that playable Jedi need to be in Star Wars games (in fact several best-selling games didn't). 3) The more Jedi that appeared in SW:G the less subscriptions there were.
1) GW is introducing alpha mode with Nightfall, where one class can take god form for a certain period of time, under certain requirements. And yes, it's pvp based game. And no, it's not unbalancing.
2) Not in *a* game. But in an avatar based MMO they are almost certain. Flight simulators don't really sell anymore and they have a strictly limited market. This is why there's no follow-ups to the x-wing/tie fighter series. Microsoft was last to attempt fantasy flight simulator in a large scale and it didn't come out as a success. Eve also shows the market size for that specific segment.
3) Jedi was the only thing people wanted because it was rare and powerful. Once it became dime a dozen, they realized the only thing worth getting in SWG was worthless, and the game sucked overall. And majority never cared about lore anyway. They wanted alpha class.
Not sure on your 1 and 2 but yes 3 is pretty much how it ended up. But people wanted it without knowing the risks or what it included..
The second people wanted all the power without any of the risks and the Devs heard this it was CUE the easy way also it is when it went to shit. I agree with this completely.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Originally posted by iskareot Originally posted by Temploiter Well, I obviously have trampled on some Jedi-loving toes. But, here are some things that can't be refuted: 1) Alpha classes in PvP-enabled MMO's are problematic 2) There is no rule that playable Jedi need to be in Star Wars games (in fact several best-selling games didn't). 3) The more Jedi that appeared in SW:G the less subscriptions there were.
1) --Well see as for one I only counter that with Risk vs Reward does work, except there is a balance to that as well. (You have to stick to it)...lol They took more of the risk away causing a ripple effect that we all saw.
2) -- Again as a goal or game driven end game goal, it was a great idea.. after all it was a game based on the Star Wars world.. (I do not hold them to a timeline as they fucked that up from the start)...
3) Jedi was not the reason that subs were less, you even know this lol. Crap if anythng Jedi were the die hard subs that stayed in the game. They just needed to tickle the other classes to make them as much eye candy as Jedi. They did a poor ass job of explaining that Jedi was a goal, a game reward to earn like any other item in the game. But they did not do this. But yea, Jedi as a free class... well that did put the icing on the cake thats for sure.
If they had stuck with risk vs reward perma-death Jedi, then it would have been less problematic for sure. And I know people that quit because the game was becoming Jedi or nothing after the Village patch. I was one of them. I didn't want to be a Jedi, I wanted to be a Bounty Hunter. My guild was a PvP guild, and we were jedi-less. We spent our time PvPing, not grinding professions. So, the system rewarded our dedication to PvPing and teamwork by making every one of us less than a person who PvE'd constantly. To say others didn't feel this way is impossible to be accurate, but I'd guess they probably did.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Temploiter Well, I obviously have trampled on some Jedi-loving toes. But, here are some things that can't be refuted: 1) Alpha classes in PvP-enabled MMO's are problematic 2) There is no rule that playable Jedi need to be in Star Wars games (in fact several best-selling games didn't). 3) The more Jedi that appeared in SW:G the less subscriptions there were.
1) GW is introducing alpha mode with Nightfall, where one class can take god form for a certain period of time, under certain requirements. And yes, it's pvp based game. And no, it's not unbalancing.
2) Not in *a* game. But in an avatar based MMO they are almost certain. Flight simulators don't really sell anymore and they have a strictly limited market. This is why there's no follow-ups to the x-wing/tie fighter series. Microsoft was last to attempt fantasy flight simulator in a large scale and it didn't come out as a success. Eve also shows the market size for that specific segment.
3) Jedi was the only thing people wanted because it was rare and powerful. Once it became dime a dozen, they realized the only thing worth getting in SWG was worthless, and the game sucked overall. And majority never cared about lore anyway. They wanted alpha class.
It will be a problem in GW if the Alpha classes are able to PvP with the other classes, mark my words.
EVE has more subscribers than SW:G so that's a weak argument there too. In an MMO they have to be? Who says? You? There is no rule. Nobody has tried it without Jedi, 1 Company tried it with them and failed.
Jedi was not the only thing people wanted, that's a generalization worth squat. People wanted to be Stormtroopers in the RP community, or Rebel fighters, and yes Jedi too. People wanted to be the best weaponsmith or armorsmith. Have the biggest dance party.
Jedi dindn't kill SW:G by themselves, but the holo-craze that killed the community had a hand, the "Jedi or worthless" PvP had a hand, the shitty bugs had a hand, etc etc. Jedi were part of the problem in my opinion. And I know others agree with me.
Originally posted by Temploiter Originally posted by iskareot Originally posted by Temploiter Well, I obviously have trampled on some Jedi-loving toes. But, here are some things that can't be refuted: 1) Alpha classes in PvP-enabled MMO's are problematic 2) There is no rule that playable Jedi need to be in Star Wars games (in fact several best-selling games didn't). 3) The more Jedi that appeared in SW:G the less subscriptions there were.
1) --Well see as for one I only counter that with Risk vs Reward does work, except there is a balance to that as well. (You have to stick to it)...lol They took more of the risk away causing a ripple effect that we all saw.
2) -- Again as a goal or game driven end game goal, it was a great idea.. after all it was a game based on the Star Wars world.. (I do not hold them to a timeline as they fucked that up from the start)...
3) Jedi was not the reason that subs were less, you even know this lol. Crap if anythng Jedi were the die hard subs that stayed in the game. They just needed to tickle the other classes to make them as much eye candy as Jedi. They did a poor ass job of explaining that Jedi was a goal, a game reward to earn like any other item in the game. But they did not do this. But yea, Jedi as a free class... well that did put the icing on the cake thats for sure.
If they had stuck with risk vs reward perma-death Jedi, then it would have been less problematic for sure. And I know people that quit because the game was becoming Jedi or nothing after the Village patch. I was one of them. I didn't want to be a Jedi, I wanted to be a Bounty Hunter. My guild was a PvP guild, and we were jedi-less. We spent our time PvPing, not grinding professions. So, the system rewarded our dedication to PvPing and teamwork by making every one of us less than a person who PvE'd constantly. To say others didn't feel this way is impossible to be accurate, but I'd guess they probably did.
Yep, I agree it could have been tweaked -- allowing us to keep our names at least and items in our inventory etc.. but starting over or even the SKILL loss system in place was nasty... you had a 1.2mill XP box that you had been working on for 3 weeks only to lose it in 3 deaths fast lol...
Let me tell ya I lost a 750k Box... It was not easy to get it back... it slowed you down and made you think 3 times before fucking around.
You did not show off, you did not use your saber in public, you did not let people know you were a new Jedi, you did not act like some kid running around in a robe with a pole arm in hand wanting to duel... No.. you did play alot smarter then.. but that was a differnt demograph AND GAME back then.. bigtime.
______________________________ I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process..... SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Comments
During the 2x xp you got 4x FS xp.
It may not seem like much, but it basically made 4 times less trips to village. So in 10-20 trips you could max out the xp.
During those times spin groups were running around, and I think those that combined grenades with AoE ran to village every 45 minutes. I don't really remember the details, I just heard from others. This is also why most didn't grind on kashyyk, since it was too slow to get all the way down.
So yea, don't underestimate the mess 2x xp made.
One of the servers crashed in coversion, so they got 4x xp. That meant 16x FS xp, or less than one weekend to fill in all the xp. Basically, that server got instant jedi right there.
The 4x xp because of conversion meant you only needed to get the ammount of xp to fill 7 FS boxes (xx34) and a bit more, rather than enough xp to fill 6x4 FS boxes.
Quite a difference. And the two weeks wasn't referring to 24/7, but perhaps 8 hours max gameplay per day.
I was there for many of the 2x xp, which is why I got to CL 80 so fast. But I didn't seriously start grinding FS xp until after the Combat xp conversion got nerfed. I was a MPike/TKM/0004 Doc and it took about 3 hours in a good spin group to get 1.5 mill and about 6 in a sad group. So I grinding about 3-6 hours a day, which would have had me unlocked on time in Mid November, but alas, I quit playing the game. I have a gaming cycle from what I've seen, where I play one game for 1-3 months and then I quit it for another and eventually I come full circle back to the first game I played. But I always came back to SWG and DAOC just about every other month. I would have unlocked eventually, but I wasn't on a mad race to get there, but now I pay for it since the NGE ruined all the work I put into unlocking half my branches.
yeah, I wrote this post before reading that there was a pre-holo period where getting Jedi was actually a challenge vrs only a grind. So I take my foot out of my mouth now. Either way, acting like a bunch of elitists because you unlocked Jedi at some point in time is still stupid and egotistical. It's just a game and people shouldn't take it so seriously. Don't get me wrong, when in-game I like to RP and don't like seeing people being stupid in-game, but when it's all said and done, if SOE were to cancel the game right then and there, I wouldn't care all that much. It's just a game, there are others out there, and I have a life. It would be sad, since I am a HUGE SW fan, but I would get on with my life, not be like the people who rant and complain for anywhere from 9months to 1 1/2 years.
You know, just make one post to SOE letting them know their mistake, leave it be and advise those that are asking about the game of your past experiences. No need for the two communities to fight or for people to be elitists because they played during such and such time and obtained this or that profession or title. In the real life scheme of things, none of this is important.
I would be interested in knowing what Pre-Publish 9 Jedi had to do to get Jedi, because I still have my doubts if it would have been a challenge for me or not.
So? Why are you being such a Elitist? What makes you above all others to be able to say who deserves Jedi and who doesn't when everyone pays the same a month. Have you forgotten that this is just a game and that whatever you do on it or accomplish on it amounts to jack in the real world? Then why take so much pride in unlocking a class that only required time sitting in front of the computer, instead of spending it with family, friends, whatever?
It really bugs the shit out of me when people like you act like you are all that, because you played the game during Tef season and when Jedi had risk vrs rewards. You act like those that didn't play then, never played a hard MMO or done anything that had good risk vrs rewards. I think you need to get over yourself and your Pre-NGE Jedi, because in reality, they aren't and never have been worth shit. It took no skill to become Jedi before, just the time it spent to grind. I've grinded in the hardest of grindfests...Lineage 2 and I don't go bragging about how I made it to this or that level while avoiding griefers in a open pvp game and while you lose xp to the point that you lose levels.
I think jedi should be hard to obtain, but a grind is not hard, it's just time consuming and stupid. Anyone that thinks a MMO is mentally challenging or hard is pretty sad. All they are is timesinks. All that is required to get ahead in a MMO, is the ability to shrug off real life for in-game grinding. So if anything, those with Pre-NGE Jedi, proved one thing...that they don't have a life and has screwed up priorities. Many are also elitists, thinking that because they grinded for months on end, that they are special and have the right to keep a class that everyone else pays the same for to themselves.
See the one thing you are using as a excuse is the word "Elitist" -- Listen, NOT only is that bullshit but see this is some peoples way of making the excuse to use thier Jedi and not feel as guilty or less rewarded.
You call it what you want.... but see, here is the difference... Those are the things I did to get my Jedi... those the steps I took and the steps and thought it took.
Your mad because you had it easier then I did..... and it shows, your anger of thinking you know about visibility or the risk, time involved in everything from getting Pearls, to resources to just staying alive... you have no idea..lol These are just facts man, deal with it. I know the difference between Hard Jedi and easy Jedi -- I have been one since this all started even the beta of it.
This has NOTHING to do with who paid what a month or how much time it took. These are just simply facts and by the measurement of effort for a "gift" if you will I wanted in the game. It has nothing to do with family, life, etc.. by all means this is a game. I played it alot when I could and liked the challenge.
Now then, as far as what you think... it almost cannot pertain, due to the fact you do not know or were not in the game. Sure it took time in front of the computer, no different then alot of things?? However as I said.. I know the difference, you do not. This is just a fact, as far as life or priorities, you think what you want..lol You seem just mad to know that people did this out there and enjoyed it. I have a great life, great family and great job etc.. sure it's only 100k plus, but I am loving it and have for a long time here.
Oh, but since everyone paid the same fee, then they too had the choice to go down the hard path... some did some did not want that. That is respectful. We never told anyone what to do in the game they bought, but when people want the same things or items someone else has as reward ingame without the effort that the previous person put forth there will be a problem.
Your confusing Elitist with Fact in this case, I did not even afk to get my Jedi, those that know me know I could not run a macro to save my life without getting pissed off. I enjoyed learning the game, understanding the risk and planning.
It took time effort and planning, it was harder, it was risk, it was one Hell of a challenge. Do not be mad it was better then, harder then and more rewarding. We are talking in THIS MMO, not others... this one.
Not my fault they changed it... if it was up to me it would have been harder.
I do get a kick out of seeing you get mad because I had it harder and you have it easy. That alone amazes me, you should just be happy you got Jedi with not that much invested. Most kids are now I think.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
So? Why are you being such a Elitist? What makes you above all others to be able to say who deserves Jedi and who doesn't when everyone pays the same a month. Have you forgotten that this is just a game and that whatever you do on it or accomplish on it amounts to jack in the real world? Then why take so much pride in unlocking a class that only required time sitting in front of the computer, instead of spending it with family, friends, whatever?
It really bugs the shit out of me when people like you act like you are all that, because you played the game during Tef season and when Jedi had risk vrs rewards. You act like those that didn't play then, never played a hard MMO or done anything that had good risk vrs rewards. I think you need to get over yourself and your Pre-NGE Jedi, because in reality, they aren't and never have been worth shit. It took no skill to become Jedi before, just the time it spent to grind. I've grinded in the hardest of grindfests...Lineage 2 and I don't go bragging about how I made it to this or that level while avoiding griefers in a open pvp game and while you lose xp to the point that you lose levels.
I think jedi should be hard to obtain, but a grind is not hard, it's just time consuming and stupid. Anyone that thinks a MMO is mentally challenging or hard is pretty sad. All they are is timesinks. All that is required to get ahead in a MMO, is the ability to shrug off real life for in-game grinding. So if anything, those with Pre-NGE Jedi, proved one thing...that they don't have a life and has screwed up priorities. Many are also elitists, thinking that because they grinded for months on end, that they are special and have the right to keep a class that everyone else pays the same for to themselves.
Somebody got a jedi after Publish 9...
No doubt way after it lol.. man, see this is somthing that went wrong with them, they got MAD because of the fact of the matter.
SO I say: I got Jedi when it was hard -- they get mad. He confuses Elitist with facts. But even worse assumes he knows what it was like, when he was not even in the game. Ok... sure lol I buy that.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
yeah, I wrote this post before reading that there was a pre-holo period where getting Jedi was actually a challenge vrs only a grind. So I take my foot out of my mouth now. Either way, acting like a bunch of elitists because you unlocked Jedi at some point in time is still stupid and egotistical. It's just a game and people shouldn't take it so seriously. Don't get me wrong, when in-game I like to RP and don't like seeing people being stupid in-game, but when it's all said and done, if SOE were to cancel the game right then and there, I wouldn't care all that much. It's just a game, there are others out there, and I have a life. It would be sad, since I am a HUGE SW fan, but I would get on with my life, not be like the people who rant and complain for anywhere from 9months to 1 1/2 years.
You know, just make one post to SOE letting them know their mistake, leave it be and advise those that are asking about the game of your past experiences. No need for the two communities to fight or for people to be elitists because they played during such and such time and obtained this or that profession or title. In the real life scheme of things, none of this is important.
I would be interested in knowing what Pre-Publish 9 Jedi had to do to get Jedi, because I still have my doubts if it would have been a challenge for me or not.
Rofl -- it would have been. By what you have posted so far, you would have been mad at the first loss of your saber while crafting it would have pissed you off. (it did me, back then 5 or 8 mill was alot) -- But the point is moot, saying "Well I was there back then" is kinda silly.. you were not, just a fact.
I do like the people that say, "Yeah it was easy all you had to do was......." Yet, they never did it or tried to or better yet -- quit.
No different then anything in life. RL is more important, if you can do it then you do... if you can't you do not bitch or get mad because somone else did.
Again, people being mad because some people applied different effort in different parts of the game then is just bazzar but human nature at it's best.
In the testing of Jedi there was two sides, ones that wanted it because it was going to be great and those that wanted it because it would be a powerful class. In the end both sides got what they wanted, but with risks... which was great but seeing people complain about it that were never one is just soooo freaking funny.
Again, human nature bigtime played a role in changing alot of this I think.
As Grant said at the last Fan Fest, alot of people wanted to be Jedi but did not want to work for it, what better way to get people into the NGE then to give that up? -- Yep.. I can see that.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
A lot of the early hologrinders and pre hologrinders unlocked well short of that...
Even if you HAD to grind all 32, many of them could be done AFK, and many used 3rd party macro programs such as Auto-IT, and it could be done in <18 weeks...
You can know something without actually experiencing it. Do you need to touch fire to know it is hot? Do you need to step in front of a car to know that it will hurt? Do you need to see a million dollars to know it exists?
The answer is no. I know how it was with Tefs, BH's and visibility, because I had Vets that made sure I knew what I missed and the difference between Village Jedi and Holo-grinder Jedi.
Do I get mad because you had to work hard to get your Jedi? No, I do not. What upsets me is the attitude that you all take on, just because you did something that others did not. That attitude is called Elitism. The attitude of thinking that you are better than another person because of something you did that another did not. That is the attitude I am getting from you and it is unbecoming of someone I know is more mature than that.
I would love to earn Jedi, rather than click on it. Many of us do and we keep asking for it. But SOE will not give it to us and took that ability away. I did not ask them to take the work out of getting Jedi. I would rather have to grind a year straight and earn my Jedi, than just click on it and it be worthless. But that's just me. I like to work for the things I value the most. In SWG, I valued Jedi and my guild the most. I worked hard (off and on) for Jedi and I worked hard to run a good RPing guild that people could have fun in.
There is also no need to throw around how much money you make. It doesn't impress me and you've done it several times on various threads. That is called bragging. Even though you tried to pass it off as modesty, you aren't fooling me.
Anyways, this arguing is stupid. We have more in common than you think and most of us would probably actually be friends in real life if we ever met. I am going to school for IT myself (career change), I have a family, love Star Wars, and love educating myself. All of those I have also gleaned from the same posts where you brag about your income.
Yes and now, what you forgot was the time period -- what we were at and the level of inflation, harshisps in game, costs, population etc..
i.e. Pearls for instance, at the time I unlocked, they were NOT easy to get, the cost 5-8 mill on the server, were hard to take down and then would get you UN HIDDEN, in fact when and if people saw you buying pearls some of them would track you to just see if you had a Jedi for weeks.
Now then, I unlocked on like 23 I think. It was odd because at the time it was alot of profs, I did do them all though as I grinded my Jedi and had to park him.
Everything from knowing what visibility was (We did not even know) to getting better XP (at our time it was lower) --
So see because you did it in the village time alone is different by far.... by the time you unlocked, you did not have perma death or skill loss, you did not have a saber crit fail and blow up into nothing after spending 20 mill on it in the (Harder times to get 20 mill) of SWG.
So see the time period does play the larger role in this. Sure the village had alot of XP --- BUT you got some double days, never had to to change classes really, never pay to train even.... so many things contributed to our time fram difference that it is not really even comparable.
That is where people forget why it was harder... the time period.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Did it take more xp or more time long time ago? Definitely.
But now ask yourself this. Do you respect a factory worker who drills 12000 holes every day, every month, every year? Do you respect a kid working in sweatshop sewing nikes for dime a dozen?
Honestly, no you don't. And if you do, there' 1000 people who don't even want to know such people exist.
At one point in time, blacksmith was a respectable profession. Training took long, work was hard, but when you needed something crafted, they were the person to go to. There are no blacksmiths anymore, their work is done by robots and presses with a white collar supervisor pushing the buttons.
In the beginning, Jedi was an unknown, due to latency, there were none. But as more and more players unlocked, they started showing up and were rare. Some people got the privilige of playing them, others wanted to do so as well. But the only fact they became desirable, is because they were rare. Not because it was "hard" or "it took" long, but they were limited resource, a luxury, a commodity.
A lot of this "hard" also goes against some other realities, such as geo caves, DWB, black sun spawn... Not to mention the fight clubs.
Other say they did it the right way. There never was a right way. There was a threshold of xp that needed to be obtained, nothing more. There was no right or wrong, there was a one-dimensional indicator which at some point blinked and said you're now a Jedi.
But above all, Jedi ceased to exist with NGE. Why still go up in flames over how someone obtained it. Jedi no longer exists. There are 9 classes. There is no Jedi. Does anyone go into KOTOR forums and yell at people for playing as Jedi when they didn't earn it? Or lego star wars for that matter?
A game sets forth a set of rules. Follow them, and you get a reward. Jedi was no different. At no point before NGE. But motives were different. Lucky few who managed to unlock first got to play as something special. By obeying some arbitrary rules coupled with luck they got to be the first of what was many to come. But what was your ultimate motive? Was it to play as Jedi, or to look down on everyone? Sadly, there never were many Jedi in SWG. A handful perhaps. The rest were people who grinded faster than anyone else.
Everyone who got jedi did what the game required them to do. Did anyone really go around saying that nobody should play after vehicles since they had to do it the hard way and they earned it, and vehicles are for noobs?
Yes, it is elitist behaviour. Just like any other claim "oh, in my time we had to do ...". It's a game. It has its rules. It's always your choice what to do. And if they change, it's not the player's fault.
Why not take a different stance. Why not assume that you got to have the privilige of playing as Jedi when there were only 5 of them in entire game? Why not go around saying that you were rewarded for grinding BH with no vehicles when you got to kill your first perma-death Jedi? Why not say that every second of your grind was worth it when you unlocked knight? Or ranked #1 in FRS?
What was your reason for grinding then? If it didn't bring you satisfaction, why wish misery upon others? Because that is indeed elitist.
When NGE came, many stopped playing Jedi. No matter how it was earned. They moved to other toons, or quit the game entirely. But there's no rational reason to hate the players for the game that has changed.
But do ask yourself this: Why did you grind Jedi? Then ask yourself, how does this answer fit into description that Jedi was once hard and nobody else deserved it.
Just like any other activity in grind based game, ask why do you do it. Every single thing is an achievement to someone. Even buying the first shuttle ticket. Seeing first Krayt. Looting first tusken robe. What makes Jedi grind so much different? Why should anyone go around saying that tusken robes are worthless and anyone keeping the is an idiot?
But motives... They do differ from person to person. And motives for obtaining Jedi were very diverse. So what exactly is it that makes one Jedi more deserved than the other, if not the x.y million xp to unlock it? Who deserves it?
IMHO, less than a handful of players that ever played SWG. Those are the only ones that "deserve" Jedi title. And no, they don't need to get force sensitive or Jedi xp for that.
I hated there were any Jedi in the game. Lore loopholes or not, there were only 3 Jedi during the time period of the game, non of which could be player characters.
Alpha classes in a game that has PvP WILL lead to problems, and it did.
For those that say "It's Star Wars, there have to be Jedi!" I don't remember any Jedi playable characters in Rebel Assault, TIE Fighter, X-Wing, or the Battlefront Series, which are the ones I played. There is no rule that says, if it has a Star Wars lable it's my basic human rights being trampled if my toon doesn't have a glowing lazer sword in front of him.
Temploiter
WDMKR | Incarnate
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
See.
Temploiter
WDMKR | Incarnate
I didn't mention them because I didn't play them, as I stated.
So, Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars, unless it's one of those games I mentioned, apparently. And there could have been NPC Jedi in SWG that roamed the universe fighting evil or good players and NPCs, that would have been awesome.
There was 1 SW MMO, SWG, it was designed to not have Jedi. Jedi were added in as a late decision. That one SW MMO failed. I'm not saying one is due to the other, but saying you "can't" have a SW MMO without Jedi and then knowing SW:G is the only thing to base that on, and SW:G is a stinking failure, it's a weak argument.
Temploiter
WDMKR | Incarnate
And why not mention Lego Star Wars, KOTOR series or other ep1-3 based games. And doesn't BF2 have playable Jedi?
Star Wars without Jedi is not Star Wars. There are purists that'll claim it can exist, but not in a mass market MMO. Period. Ask anyone to name the first thing that pops into their mind when they hear Star Wars. How many times will you hear Jedi?
These are mass market products. Purism doesn't work here. If anything, the original SWG proposed a very sound and reasonable solution to Jedi vs. world balance. Too bad its realization sucked from day 1. Most other games simply don't deal with this issue, and put you in as Jedi. I always felt like at least giving credit where its due.
See.
See what?
Mr. Merchandise is running a consortium banking on Star Wars license. Their business model is based around milking a 20 or 25 year old movie made by an enthusiastic geekish director.
There is no cult. There is no religion. There is no "true" Star Wars. It's a license designed to milk fans.
There are non-Jedi aspects in Star Wars universe. But inevitably, they are tied with Jedi. This non-jedi stance is rather annoying. It's like claiming Lord of the Rings is about Wilebur the Hermit. A person never depicted in books, but referenced in extended material mentioned on a note found in Tolkien's drawer. LOTR is about good vs. evil, fuzzy hobbits going against big bad Saruman. Huge battles, orcs, trolls, fearless riders and powerful wizards. There's plenty of lore, but it's extremly simple. Wizards are part of every aspect, even if not directly present. The are essential part of every story, and have shaped the land. Orcs and elves are also part of every story. Just like dragons, spiders, hawks and other mythical cratures.
Look at it this way. LOTRO will (apparently) not allow pvp or playing of the evil side. Do you think it will be a success? Or will players unanimously demand that? Or will the game bomb just like the "purist" DnD did? What exactly was it that DnD failed to deliver? Or can a mainstream game be really made by trying to apease both?
There was 1 SW MMO, SWG, it was designed to not have Jedi. Jedi were added in as a late decision. That one SW MMO failed. I'm not saying one is due to the other, but saying you "can't" have a SW MMO without Jedi and then knowing SW:G is the only thing to base that on, and SW:G is a stinking failure, it's a weak argument.
Jedi skills and gear was part of original install, publish 0. All the data is in there, including the original data structures. It just wasn't finished at release. But it was part of the original design, they just weren't sure how exactly it will work.
You can know something without actually experiencing it. Do you need to touch fire to know it is hot? Do you need to step in front of a car to know that it will hurt? Do you need to see a million dollars to know it exists?
The answer is no. I know how it was with Tefs, BH's and visibility, because I had Vets that made sure I knew what I missed and the difference between Village Jedi and Holo-grinder Jedi.
Do I get mad because you had to work hard to get your Jedi? No, I do not. What upsets me is the attitude that you all take on, just because you did something that others did not. That attitude is called Elitism. The attitude of thinking that you are better than another person because of something you did that another did not. That is the attitude I am getting from you and it is unbecoming of someone I know is more mature than that.
I would love to earn Jedi, rather than click on it. Many of us do and we keep asking for it. But SOE will not give it to us and took that ability away. I did not ask them to take the work out of getting Jedi. I would rather have to grind a year straight and earn my Jedi, than just click on it and it be worthless. But that's just me. I like to work for the things I value the most. In SWG, I valued Jedi and my guild the most. I worked hard (off and on) for Jedi and I worked hard to run a good RPing guild that people could have fun in.
There is also no need to throw around how much money you make. It doesn't impress me and you've done it several times on various threads. That is called bragging. Even though you tried to pass it off as modesty, you aren't fooling me.
Anyways, this arguing is stupid. We have more in common than you think and most of us would probably actually be friends in real life if we ever met. I am going to school for IT myself (career change), I have a family, love Star Wars, and love educating myself. All of those I have also gleaned from the same posts where you brag about your income.
But as you did -you tried to belittle my RL as the excuse for me getting Jedi as in the past.. that is my response for my success, each to his own. I hope all people are as happy as I am. I am content and very thankful for my fun I had in the game.
See the one thing that you forgot to mention is that (I am always saying this) I am very very thankful I was able to get Jedi then, I enjoyed it, loved it very much and it was a great break from RL issues or normal crap.
Again, your using the word Elitism in place of my doing somthing in the game at a certain time when I know it was harder, you know and so do others. Just use the facts then, no emotion at all. This is not a person thing... this is a fact thing. -- Jedi was harder then, much harder to get, obtain, maintain and be. Fact... in all aspects of it period. Be mad at that all you want perse, but again... as I just said that was a fact.
I was able to be FS in 2 days on my main (almost automatically due to me having done all I did on my main) when the village kicked in. I know the difference from the village Jedi to prior, I sure as Hell know the differnce in the CU and the NGE, well.... we do not need to even discuss that one lol.
The point is, call it whatever you want. I enjoyed it, loved it and was lucky enough to be successful with it. I helped SOO many people and even worked with both factions on Bria to have fun. I was not always known as the NGE hater I am now, I was a true supporter of the game. Had fun, enjoyed the server and the population. I stood up for Jedi and I liked to think I was a very Honorable Jedi on the server, I was never camped always fought , was not a runner.. and I was even a Enhancer template... I knew my role and also knew my limits. I never once showboated, showed off, or made a ass out of myself. I took pride in being a good Jedi Knight that helped people in game and aided them when I could.
All things aside the one thing this game was more then most was the close nit cache of people. I have played games since my Ti-99 days and the people in SWG were some of the best back then. Even Op factions knew when to fight and when to be friendly.
I do miss that game. No doubt of that.
Also since you do not know, yes this is going to be hard to believe but get this.. Imagine having people offer to help you as a Jedi, support you, look out for you, hide you. Jedi was a solo grind, but you depended on ALOT OF PEOPLE to get what you needed.
From having to fund him, (Which was unreal by the way)
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
Well, I obviously have trampled on some Jedi-loving toes. But, here are some things that can't be refuted:
1) Alpha classes in PvP-enabled MMO's are problematic
2) There is no rule that playable Jedi need to be in Star Wars games (in fact several best-selling games didn't).
3) The more Jedi that appeared in SW:G the less subscriptions there were.
Temploiter
WDMKR | Incarnate
1) --Well see as for one I only counter that with Risk vs Reward does work, except there is a balance to that as well. (You have to stick to it)...lol They took more of the risk away causing a ripple effect that we all saw.
2) -- Again as a goal or game driven end game goal, it was a great idea.. after all it was a game based on the Star Wars world.. (I do not hold them to a timeline as they fucked that up from the start)...
3) Jedi was not the reason that subs were less, you even know this lol. Crap if anythng Jedi were the die hard subs that stayed in the game. They just needed to tickle the other classes to make them as much eye candy as Jedi. They did a poor ass job of explaining that Jedi was a goal, a game reward to earn like any other item in the game. But they did not do this. But yea, Jedi as a free class... well that did put the icing on the cake thats for sure.
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I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
2) Not in *a* game. But in an avatar based MMO they are almost certain. Flight simulators don't really sell anymore and they have a strictly limited market. This is why there's no follow-ups to the x-wing/tie fighter series. Microsoft was last to attempt fantasy flight simulator in a large scale and it didn't come out as a success. Eve also shows the market size for that specific segment.
3) Jedi was the only thing people wanted because it was rare and powerful. Once it became dime a dozen, they realized the only thing worth getting in SWG was worthless, and the game sucked overall. And majority never cared about lore anyway. They wanted alpha class.
Obriak... spoke like a true NGE Jedi lol..
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
2) Not in *a* game. But in an avatar based MMO they are almost certain. Flight simulators don't really sell anymore and they have a strictly limited market. This is why there's no follow-ups to the x-wing/tie fighter series. Microsoft was last to attempt fantasy flight simulator in a large scale and it didn't come out as a success. Eve also shows the market size for that specific segment.
3) Jedi was the only thing people wanted because it was rare and powerful. Once it became dime a dozen, they realized the only thing worth getting in SWG was worthless, and the game sucked overall. And majority never cared about lore anyway. They wanted alpha class.
Not sure on your 1 and 2 but yes 3 is pretty much how it ended up. But people wanted it without knowing the risks or what it included..
The second people wanted all the power without any of the risks and the Devs heard this it was CUE the easy way also it is when it went to shit. I agree with this completely.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1
1) --Well see as for one I only counter that with Risk vs Reward does work, except there is a balance to that as well. (You have to stick to it)...lol They took more of the risk away causing a ripple effect that we all saw.
2) -- Again as a goal or game driven end game goal, it was a great idea.. after all it was a game based on the Star Wars world.. (I do not hold them to a timeline as they fucked that up from the start)...
3) Jedi was not the reason that subs were less, you even know this lol. Crap if anythng Jedi were the die hard subs that stayed in the game. They just needed to tickle the other classes to make them as much eye candy as Jedi. They did a poor ass job of explaining that Jedi was a goal, a game reward to earn like any other item in the game. But they did not do this. But yea, Jedi as a free class... well that did put the icing on the cake thats for sure.
If they had stuck with risk vs reward perma-death Jedi, then it would have been less problematic for sure. And I know people that quit because the game was becoming Jedi or nothing after the Village patch. I was one of them. I didn't want to be a Jedi, I wanted to be a Bounty Hunter. My guild was a PvP guild, and we were jedi-less. We spent our time PvPing, not grinding professions. So, the system rewarded our dedication to PvPing and teamwork by making every one of us less than a person who PvE'd constantly. To say others didn't feel this way is impossible to be accurate, but I'd guess they probably did.
Temploiter
WDMKR | Incarnate
2) Not in *a* game. But in an avatar based MMO they are almost certain. Flight simulators don't really sell anymore and they have a strictly limited market. This is why there's no follow-ups to the x-wing/tie fighter series. Microsoft was last to attempt fantasy flight simulator in a large scale and it didn't come out as a success. Eve also shows the market size for that specific segment.
3) Jedi was the only thing people wanted because it was rare and powerful. Once it became dime a dozen, they realized the only thing worth getting in SWG was worthless, and the game sucked overall. And majority never cared about lore anyway. They wanted alpha class.
It will be a problem in GW if the Alpha classes are able to PvP with the other classes, mark my words.
EVE has more subscribers than SW:G so that's a weak argument there too. In an MMO they have to be? Who says? You? There is no rule. Nobody has tried it without Jedi, 1 Company tried it with them and failed.
Jedi was not the only thing people wanted, that's a generalization worth squat. People wanted to be Stormtroopers in the RP community, or Rebel fighters, and yes Jedi too. People wanted to be the best weaponsmith or armorsmith. Have the biggest dance party.
Jedi dindn't kill SW:G by themselves, but the holo-craze that killed the community had a hand, the "Jedi or worthless" PvP had a hand, the shitty bugs had a hand, etc etc. Jedi were part of the problem in my opinion. And I know others agree with me.
Temploiter
WDMKR | Incarnate
1) --Well see as for one I only counter that with Risk vs Reward does work, except there is a balance to that as well. (You have to stick to it)...lol They took more of the risk away causing a ripple effect that we all saw.
2) -- Again as a goal or game driven end game goal, it was a great idea.. after all it was a game based on the Star Wars world.. (I do not hold them to a timeline as they fucked that up from the start)...
3) Jedi was not the reason that subs were less, you even know this lol. Crap if anythng Jedi were the die hard subs that stayed in the game. They just needed to tickle the other classes to make them as much eye candy as Jedi. They did a poor ass job of explaining that Jedi was a goal, a game reward to earn like any other item in the game. But they did not do this. But yea, Jedi as a free class... well that did put the icing on the cake thats for sure.
If they had stuck with risk vs reward perma-death Jedi, then it would have been less problematic for sure. And I know people that quit because the game was becoming Jedi or nothing after the Village patch. I was one of them. I didn't want to be a Jedi, I wanted to be a Bounty Hunter. My guild was a PvP guild, and we were jedi-less. We spent our time PvPing, not grinding professions. So, the system rewarded our dedication to PvPing and teamwork by making every one of us less than a person who PvE'd constantly. To say others didn't feel this way is impossible to be accurate, but I'd guess they probably did.
Yep, I agree it could have been tweaked -- allowing us to keep our names at least and items in our inventory etc.. but starting over or even the SKILL loss system in place was nasty... you had a 1.2mill XP box that you had been working on for 3 weeks only to lose it in 3 deaths fast lol...
Let me tell ya I lost a 750k Box... It was not easy to get it back... it slowed you down and made you think 3 times before fucking around.
You did not show off, you did not use your saber in public, you did not let people know you were a new Jedi, you did not act like some kid running around in a robe with a pole arm in hand wanting to duel... No.. you did play alot smarter then.. but that was a differnt demograph AND GAME back then.. bigtime.
______________________________
I usually picture the Career builder commercial with the room full of monkeys and upside down sales chart when thinking about the SOE/SWG decision making process.....
SOE's John Blakely and Todd Fiala issued a warning: "Don't make our mistakes." Ref NGE
Winner of the worst MMOS goes to.... the NGE and SWG..!!! http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm?loadFeature=1034&bhcp=1