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Game Developer Points Out WoW's Boring Endgame
dink
Member Posts: 438
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dink
Member Posts: 438
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Maybe he just realized it? For many, WoW was their first MMO.
My suggestion: someone, send this guy a braincell.
Actually a lot of what he said amde sence as for why he is still playing i guess its because he still likes the game.
He just doesant like the endgame.
-iCeh
Do you not understand the term in this context? It means highly repeatable content designed to continue to entertain players who have reached max level.
All MMOs should have incredible endgames. If I were designing an MMO, at least half of my effort would be focused on endgame.
I know he said he should have realized it earlier and I'm won't throw around some insult, but I think he should have come to this conclusion many months ago. Especially considering almost exactly the same thing has been said on the forums a bajillion times by non-professionals.
The only thing I can think of is that he purposely tried not to analyze it. Because the effects of the Blizzard design should be obvious. Both the itemization and the social implications aren't hard to project for anyone who can do basic math and who has lived through high school social crap.
Its the narrow focus on gear and only allowing that gear through raids that is the major problem. Alot of people don't like raiding at all and gear can get stale pretty quick. They probably could have bought themselves another year easy by just not exalting raids above everything else and doing a mixed release with equivlanet gear. Although probably that would have gotten stale too eventually. Static, non-interactive worlds like WoW are eventually a dead-end. Nothing wrong with that. A good 2 years of fun is still something good. But that is their nature.
gestalt - The problem with giving out gear in any other form is that raids are a pain in the ass. You can't have raids and not give them the best loot or people won't do them. Even most people who go on raids hate them. . . you know, after you've beaten them.
Personally, I'm an odd bird. I love being in the groups that beat raids initially, but I hate farming them. This means that I'm a glutton for the challenging part and will endure repeating the content over and over through group wipes, but once it is "on farm" - well, I could give a damn. The end result is that though I've joined uber guilds and been integral in coming up with the initial strats for raids before they got released to the whole internet, I only have one epic.
Anyway. . . WoW has really dug it's endgame hole already. I'm hoping Gods & Heroes, which is looking absurdly awesome, will do a better job.
P.S. - I will be buying Burning Crusade in order to play the free month and see the new content that ISN'T part of the endgame uber-guild only raids though.
If no one does them then the devs should take the hint and not emphasize them or not implement them at all. I know some people like them, but doing what they did causes more harm than good if its tru that 75% of people just don't like them.
I personally find raids completely boring at every single stage. I do not even think they are challenging neither mentally or physically. I would be perfectly happy if no MMO had ever made them. I do understand that there is a set of people who seem to be a large minority like raids initially (maybe 40%?) and there is an even smaller minority that likes to raid exclusive to everything else(maybe 5%). For those sure add a few raids I don't care. But once you start rewarding the minority above everyone else you will create a social dynamic of have and have nots which always always always leads to bitter confilt. Especially since raids are certainly not any more challenging than many other things.
Its simply unwise. It causes unnecessary and bitter conflcit for no gain what-so-ever. Clearly a large amount of the populace would be happier if 5 or 10 mans rewarded equivalently and the raiders would not be penalized. Further even if we took out raids entirely the uber people would still have content to do. All raiders in WoW also run the smaller instances. There is no way they would quit if raids were taken out. That one is a complete canard.
Let me make this very clear, anyone who tries to incentivize or force me into an activity that I do not like on any level just so to make it easier for that very small minority of people who actually do enjoy it is someone I have nothing but contempt for. Doesn't it make you feel dirty trying to influence people into doing something they admit is unpleasant? Me; I just quit. I'm no ones bitch.
Cheers.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
Cheers.
Actually, DAOC has the exact same endgame as WoW. either PVP, or Raiding.
Do you not understand the term in this context? It means highly repeatable content designed to continue to entertain players who have reached max level.
All MMOs should have incredible endgames. If I were designing an MMO, at least half of my effort would be focused on endgame.
Yes, and that's exactly why there shouldn't be an endgame. Perhaps it's because EVE was my first MMO, and there's no endgame (that i know of) as you're the one who decides how you want to play, and what you want to do.
That's how MMO's should be, you shouldn't have to repeat the same things over and over, its boring. Apparently WAR will be avoiding this too, which is why i'm following it (although i grind my teeth everytime i think of EA ;D) and it should be an example of how a level based MMO should be.
-iCeh
Do you not understand the term in this context? It means highly repeatable content designed to continue to entertain players who have reached max level.
All MMOs should have incredible endgames. If I were designing an MMO, at least half of my effort would be focused on endgame.
Yes, and that's exactly why there shouldn't be an endgame. Perhaps it's because EVE was my first MMO, and there's no endgame (that i know of) as you're the one who decides how you want to play, and what you want to do.
That's how MMO's should be, you shouldn't have to repeat the same things over and over, its boring. Apparently WAR will be avoiding this too, which is why i'm following it (although i grind my teeth everytime i think of EA ;D) and it should be an example of how a level based MMO should be.
The only reason why EVE has no endgame is because of the rediculous skill system, nobody ever reached EVE's endgame, and probably never will.
wow has a decent endgame if pve/raids is your thing. however the pvp at endgame is awful and what kills me about wow as a whole is your whole life in game from lvl 1-59 can be done solo/casual but as soon as you hit lvl 60 the game is transformed into a hardcore raid-centric game, this has never made sense to me and never will.
why on earth don't they make more small group content designed for endgame? why on earth don't they think of some other way to advance your character once you hit max lvl other than item upgrades?
Siehst du mich
Erkennst du mich
Ganz tief in meinem Herz
ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
Ich suche dich
Ich sehne mich
nach dem was ich geliebt hab
doch ich find es nicht
The scary thing is Blizzard could fix this with the expansion, but they could either choose to make more kick ass dungeons like Dire Maul or they can go the way of the 40 main raid dungeons again.
I like the part where he pointed out, you have to marry the game at 60 or quit, haha that was funny and unfortunately true.
Blizzards got something weird going on with the way they choose their developers. The lead developer right now is a PvE raider from EQ. I guess that's why the game is built around PvE raiding and not a more balanced mix of goals. . .
They kind of paint themselves into a corner with this. You see, if they fixed the game by giving people ways to get epic loot WITHOUT PvE raiding, then raids would be dead. . . because RAIDING SUCKS. While there are a number of people that enjoy raiding, they DON'T enjoy DKP systems, repeating content over and over, or dealing with the stupid requirement of grinding for potions, etc. in order to run raids. They are a pain in the butt, and if people could get cool loot WITHOUT raiding, then they'd basically just be throwing away all of their raid content. . . because no one would ever play it.
I think Gods & Heroes has the right idea for this. They are going to give people different ways to get loot through raiding or PvP. Also, they are planning to make raids scale so that you can do them with 40 players if you like, or if you are in a mid-sized guild, you could do them with 20 or so players who use minions to have the playing strength of 40 players. Thus both groups can access the content to see the stories of these instances and grind for loot (or not - you should be able to get comparable loot from PvP in G&H).
yeah and MC/bwl will be 20 manned, but will that gear be totally obsolete to a lvl 70? there might be small group armor sets and weapons that will be far superior to that gear.