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SWG EMU Discussion - read before posting

13

Comments

  • XcathdraXcathdra Member CommonPosts: 1,027

    AH... is it illegal.. is it legal... Is it criminal.. is it civil..... Is it moral, is it immoral....

    Lets see... You clicked on the EUAL / TOS before install / or before actual game play... The industry already has been spanked for making yoiu give billing info before you agree to the TOS.. So they dont do that anymore..  

    To violate the TOS invalidates your ability to play that particular game(according to the TOS anyways).. Criminal Violaton = Nope.. Civil = Ehh... its a stretch but id say no to this also.. The reason I say not really is because  civil liabilities have a monetary damage at the end of it. For instance selling a Jedi on Ebay could violate the TOS, and thereby they cancle your account and delete the toon.. However one could make an argument you are selling your time invested into making the Jedi... But I digress....

    Is making an EMU illegal... Not yet.. No one has been succesful in arguing this point yet. Federal Fair Use Law states:

    "One of the rights accorded to the owner of copyright is the right to reproduce or to authorize others to reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords. This right is subject to certain limitations found in sections 107 through 118 of the Copyright Act (title 17, U. S. Code). One of the more important limitations is the doctrine of “fair use.” Although fair use was not mentioned in the previous copyright law, the doctrine has developed through a substantial number of court decisions over the years. This doctrine has been codified in section 107 of the copyright law.

    Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

    1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

    2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

    3. amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

    4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

    The distinction between “fair use” and infringement may be unclear and not easily defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission.

    The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legislative or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”

    Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work.

    The safest course is always to get permission from the copyright owner before using copyrighted material. The Copyright Office cannot give this permission.

    When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be avoided unless the doctrine of “fair use” would clearly apply to the situation. The Copyright Office can neither determine if a certain use may be considered “fair” nor advise on possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to consult an attorney.

    FL-102, Revised July 2006


    Home  |  Contact Us  |  Legal Notices  |  Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)  |  Library of Congress

    U.S. Copyright Office
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    Washington, DC 20559-6000
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    Now... point out in there where it states the EMU is illegal... Well you cant.. its going to be through court rulings and procidents, which are there for this particular type of case...

    Now the other side of the coin: Specifically Title II, not included here.. Just the basic overview of the DMCA.

    http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/

    http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf#search='Digital%20Millennium%20Rights%20Act'

    DMCA- The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law which criminalizes production and dissemination of technology that can circumvent measures taken to protect copyright, not merely infringement of copyright itself, and heightens the penalties for copyright infringement on the Internet. Passed on May 14, 1998 by a unanimous vote in the United States Senate and signed into law by President Bill Clinton on October 28, 1998, the DMCA amended title 17 of the US Code to extend the reach of copyright, while limiting the liability of Online Providers from copyright infringement by their users.

    Again not specific enough and needs the courts to define (and Blizzard got us on the way for this).

    The EMU is not illegal being they are not asking for money in return for using the "servers". They are not asking for money to "devlop" the EMU. All being done for free, and offered for free based on the assumption you have a legally purchased game on your side.

    In order for the DMCA to even be applied the entity filing the lawsuit has to have whatever they are suing for be copyrighted. Section 1201(c)(1) also states "rights, remedies ... or defense to copyright infringment, including fair use."

    1201 (f) specifically covers reverse engineerings.. It permits reverse engineering if the person doing the reverse engineering has aquired rights legally (in this case they bought the game) and only if they reverse engineer to create interoprability for use with other programs (in the case the Emulator).

    Long story short.. No law has been broken...  The EMU team is following established FAIR USE LAW as well as the correct portins of the DMCA law...

    Now the fun part.. what started out as a civil violation turns criminal under the DMCA if the EMU team more or less profits from their creation..$500,000.00 fine and up to 5 years in prison jsut for the first offense. Very easy to cross those lines and not even know it...

    Xcathdra

    Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
    Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
    Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.

  • iceman00iceman00 Member Posts: 1,363


    Originally posted by Stradden

    Hey Guys,

    I feel the need to respond at this point. Not because I have been personally attacked a number of times, but because I appear not to have made the reasons clear.

    Yes, Emulator servers are a gray area. That is not the reason that the decision was made to disallow discussion of the EMU in question. I have asked that people not talk about it, because of the huge number of a) threads that were created on the same subject, clogging up the forum, and b) the fact that nearly every thread concerning the EMU contained flames and other rule violations.

    The simple fact of the matter is that we had decided to allow conversation about the EMU. It progressed for some time before we were forced to remove the threads because of the rules that were being violated. The topic has become troll and flame bait. It was either take this stance, or be forced into a large number of bans.

    I have said before and will say again: We have no intention of censoring anyone. However, we must remember that our rules are in place to make MMORPG.com a fun place for all of our members. When one single subject takes over a forum as well as encourages people to break the rules, it is reasonable to remove those posts. 

    I would also like to say that who does or does not advertise with this site has absolutely no effect on the site's content or the decisions of the site's content Editors. We have, for example, run numerous articles that denounce the secondary market (even though, as was pointed out, we do have gold-seller advertising) here is the most recent of them. We have also given poor reviews to games that advertise with us. Likewise, advertisement does not effect decisions that are made regarding the forums.

    I hope that this clears things up for people. I realize that there will be some who, for whatever reason, will disagree, but I felt that the reasons for this decision should be made clear in as up-front and honest a way as possible.

    Cheers,

    Jon "Stradden" Wood, Community Manager

    Also, for those concerned with the virtual seller ads, there is a sticky for just that purpose:

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/67413


    Can verify that.  I'm doing a debate soon to be placed slamming powerleveling companies as unethical and dishonest.  I was given free reign to make those points.
  • tjvoodootjvoodoo Member Posts: 293

    i dont know if you meant what i took it for but :

    http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/

    Yes every MMO i play reminds me of this .

  • OssirisWardOssirisWard Member Posts: 74

    Question for you and your staff John; If the rumor of LA fully supporting the 'Ducks' becomes official, will this change your policy on this stance?

    One thing I liked about this forum was that it was an open forum to discuss many things that we cannot all discuss on other forums....I did see quite a few 'duck' posts that were not flamebait or trollfood prior to the no discussion period policy.

    In fact I myself was banned for 3 days from this forum for posting a thread about the 'change in attitude' reflected on the ducks' site, a thread that could have cleared up alot of negativity between some MMORPG members and the duck admins.

    image

  • tjvoodootjvoodoo Member Posts: 293


    Originally posted by OssirisWard

    Question for you and your staff John; If the rumor of LA fully supporting the 'Ducks' becomes official, will this change your policy on this stance?

    One thing I liked about this forum was that it was an open forum to discuss many things that we cannot all discuss on other forums....I did see quite a few 'duck' posts that were not flamebait or trollfood prior to the no discussion period policy.
    In fact I myself was banned for 3 days from this forum for posting a thread about the 'change in attitude' reflected on the ducks' site, a thread that could have cleared up alot of negativity between some MMORPG members and the duck admins.


    There is no confusion between me a MMORPG member and the ducks - a few of the ducks just don't get on with people to well, wheres the confusion.
  • ShaydeShayde Member Posts: 4,529
    Some supposingly new info...


    Rumours? The shroud of the dark side has been lifted

    Posted 1:28pm by DarthMaulUK (Community News)

    Over
    the past couple of weeks, rumours have been flying around about a
    Server or group working on a Pre-CU/NGE coding for Star Wars Galaxies
    and that they also have source code etc to make this happen.



    SWGalaxies.net can reveal that this is indeed true and
    Lucasarts are giving it their support, providing that they go through
    the LF Network, Lucasfiles and SWGalaxies.net. We can't reveal too much
    information at this early stage - but if you want to help, or voice
    your support for the project, you can join the debate on our forums

    Now Audune, the Community Relations person wrote on the SWGgalaxies.net site...


    Hi, I'm Audune Ado'lynn from the SWGEmu forums, and at the last thing
    that was mentioned to me, any and all talks we have with anyone from LA
    or SOE has been deemed PRIVATE and that the information has not been in
    any way shape or form released to the general Public at this time.


    I posted this info on the emu boards, and Audune said that he's trying to see if there's any official plans to announce from LA.


    Shayde - SWG (dead)
    Proud member of the Cabal.
    image

    imageimage
    It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.
    I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
    09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

  • ShivorEheShivorEhe Member Posts: 83


    Originally posted by Shayde

    I posted this info on the emu boards, and Audune said that he's trying to see if there's any official plans to announce from LA.


    Shayde, can you give a link to your post on the EMU boards? Or is that problem with MMORPG?
  • tjvoodootjvoodoo Member Posts: 293


    Originally posted by ShivorEhe

    Originally posted by Shayde

    I posted this info on the emu boards, and Audune said that he's trying to see if there's any official plans to announce from LA.

    Shayde, can you give a link to your post on the EMU boards? Or is that problem with MMORPG?



    We can talk about the EMU in the sticky but we cant post links to it. But if this means anything i can verify what shayde has said as true.
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,741
    Don't matter they still won't let you talk about it here. I guess if anyone else has some public forums we can use for these purposes post you links. This one is for talking about the version we all hate.


  • darkedone02darkedone02 Member UncommonPosts: 581
    I just hope that they successfully finish these things and run good too. I want to try out this Pre-CU thing, and i want to play for free. SOE destory this and pissed us off, SOE is a true imperial. I don't know about EA, but they too are imperials. 

    image

  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,741
    I think I figured out the miss understanding. Someone from a private server went to the boards and asked if they could talk about the ### there. The sites mod thought it was a duck team member ready to anounce the projects plan to expand so he jumped the gun and released the info on his site to early. The Admin was in contact with one of the ducks and explained this and all seems well again. But that in the mean time the post is still there and the cat is out of the bag.


  • kefkahkefkah Member Posts: 832

    Awww, hell, I admit - I goofed. Read this thread and everything. Got caught up in the moment...

    Will save you the effort though, Stradden,  and ban myself until such time that it is ok to mention ducks. Shouldn't be that long anyway and even if it is - I am sure I will land somewhere that I can avoid having to use code words even in passing.

    Gentlemen and Ladies, its been an honor posting with you even if it was from the opposite side of the table.

  • miagisanmiagisan Member Posts: 5,156
    We (as in the LFN Network) will be posting a statement about SWGEmu shortly. Lucasarts have brought it to our attention.

    The whole idea is VERY exciting and expect full updates from us shortly. Naturally, if any of you out there are coders - PLEASE lend your support.

    DMUK

    found here
    http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=168673





    image

  • chfireballchfireball Member Posts: 16
    You can talk about it here forums
    new forums set up for this topic. post links ect..  it's all cool here


  • matraquematraque Member Posts: 1,431
    wow, there is a theif in the emu project.....

    i'm i the only one who saw that comming ?

    LMAO.


    eqnext.wikia.com

  • GozzarGozzar Member UncommonPosts: 387
    "grey area" .... Censorship is the control of speech and other forms of human expression.

    image

    image

  • ZaushZaush Member Posts: 371
    They have combat working!

  • SinisteroneSinisterone Member Posts: 22

    ((well i have been watching the emu and have observed their responses and such,and recent annoucments.

    hate to be the devil's advocate on this one,

    but well,

    i think their really going to work for Soe.

    for one thing,

    they've at least discussed making the game closed source,

    not doing a pre-cu game like they talked about for so long,

    but a cu one.

    they lock any threads concerning rumours of them joining soe or lucas arts,

    or as it seems anything which isn't too their liking,

    ironically after announcing a few months or weeks ago that they were going to be more open with the community.

    i find this all pretty funny myself,

    even as a emu team they have alot in common with soe,

    censorship being one thing.

    there doesn't seem to be any real open discussion about anything,

    unless its unabashed praising of the devs of the emu team,etc.

    they won't even say what happened between themselves and lucas arts.

    while one isn't really obligated to have to reveal everything little thing per se,

    they have kind of put themselves in an odd position by declaring themselves the new home for ex-swg players and as the offical star wars emulator.

    these are just my observations and i figure id post them here,

    because on the emu boards i would most likely have my topic locked,

    be banned or flamed.

    i wish them luck..however when they discussed making it closed source..and cu..i lost hope.

    one can only wait and see how it actually turns out.)))

    ==Sinisterone==

    Cernunnos Cowan,Starsider server,Swg(retired,or deleted)

    Cernunno,Steamwheedle cartel,WoW.))

  • Runny123Runny123 Member Posts: 177

    if you all have brains you can see that they are doing CU cause it will be easier to work into pre-cu.


  • SinisteroneSinisterone Member Posts: 22


    Originally posted by Runny123
    if you all have brains you can see that they are doing CU cause it will be easier to work into pre-cu.


    (((hahah,

    right..make a promise to do one thing, and then turn around and do the other.

    in either case its bullhockey.

    also,

    i doubt your the judge of whom has brains or not,lol.

    just wait and watch..nothing like a group that promises to work for the people..and then prove it by locking threads.....going all nda about their conversation with lucas arts...

  • Runny123Runny123 Member Posts: 177


    Originally posted by Sinisterone


    Originally posted by Runny123
    if you all have brains you can see that they are doing CU cause it will be easier to work into pre-cu.


    (((hahah,


    right..make a promise to do one thing, and then turn around and do the other.


    in either case its bullhockey.

    also,

    i doubt your the judge of whom has brains or not,lol.


    just wait and watch..nothing like a group that promises to work for the people..and then prove it by locking threads.....going all nda about their conversation with lucas arts...






    They already have good jobs man. why would they wanna work at a depressing company that is doomed?
  • SinisteroneSinisterone Member Posts: 22

    ((it seems odd to me to defend someone who preaches being on the level with the community of disheartened(i bet i spelled that wrong,lol)),  ex swg players and yet not reveal the content of their discussion with lucas arts. but then again many tend to hope i guess.

    i don't question their "jobs",etc,  just their authenticity,

    it is in my opinion, nothing but so much vaporware.

    while i would wish for a working emulator,

    i doubt the actual legality of it((an emulator even of a super nintendo game is not legal unless you own the actual software..while running is a mmo program like star wars galaxies in any version may fall under a grey area..i doubt it will happen.  iwould also point out that soe in general is not doomed, just the star wars branch of it.  i think soe will become a third party carrier of mmo's and that swg in whatever incarnation will be run more by lucas arts in the future..but this is just for the moment, speculation.

    even so i throw the towel in on this conversation..lol..i think i can see this thing going in circles..time will tell i suppose.

  • HajpojHajpoj Member Posts: 18
    this project is officially over..... R.I.P. SwgEmu, oh how you have failed us.

    "Only when a human being realized the frivolity of their own existance, can they begin to learn what is significant." - Me

  • ClaudeFRClaudeFR Member Posts: 376

    ...and this is no surprise at all.

    Dont get me wrong, the last thing i want to do is flaming.

    But i also have a strong oppinion why they failed, and to me: Its all housemade.

    See, the so called "devs" of the emuteam never did anything really "uber".
    A bit moving and chatting, that is really easy done with a few packets from logs, nothing special here.
    Anyone coding professional will know that.

    Im working as a coder for more than 20 years and it was a bit amusing to see them freaking out just because they got like 0.09% done.

    I always thought "sheesh...you all shut up, enjoy in silence and move, the hard hard hard way is in front of you guys....not behind you...."

    But they freaked, acted like the super-uber guys, talked pretty big all over their boards and always acted unmature, censoring, deleting and locking threads in the very best suckboard-style.
    They realized themselves soon that they acted like idiots, all other sites kept reporting about it. So they posted about a "new attitude". Ya...sure....

    Their devs (the originals) ran away, others took the money and vanished and what was left?
    Nothing but a bunch of kiddies talking bull (sorry, truth).

    They had no reversers and they had no real good applications and they never got pre-CU combat logs.
    Of course not, who is going to support such di..heads? I mean honestly, who will do this?

    And if im calling names here, i dont mean that personally, just said to emphase what they look like as a whole.

    One day, there was a really good guy applying but insulted and scared off. And that happend not only once...
    When they finally faced they got NOTHING done without help of real good ASM-reversers, they switched
    to CU, !AGAIN! talking big and shi...on their boards, how it could be done in 6 hours blablabla.
    "Uber-ROFL".


    And whats now?
    Board's closed, no more public presence. IRC is not for everyone, so the project goes back in the shadow.
    If its going on anyway...


    An example par excellance what happens if you let some kids play around with some packets, leaving the big thing out of sight.

    I mean cmon...did they really think they got anything remarkable done when they got moving and chat (halfassed) done?

    Market, trading, friendlists, bazar, economy, combat, inventory, gazillion condition-checks, space, citys etc etc etc.

    There were a million things left to do, things really hard to reverse. Their moving and chatting was just like 0.9% of all of this - but they acted like they were anything special - disgusting.

    Well, this was a good lessons to them, hopefully they learn in the future.


    And finally, dont get me wrong:
    I was hoping they get in done. I was more then hoping, i was praying.
    I would have supported them in what ever was needed. I checked their boards once and the acting and replys over there where terrible (and mostly technical wrong even). At this point i thought -and i bet a dozen others too over the time - "why helping such idiots?"


    So i lurked their boards and it was easy to see, that they will stumble over themselves.
    And it made me very sad to see such great thing get burried under housemade idiocy.

    I dont know, if the project has been stopped or not.

    But i do hope, that if they EVER decide to go on, they really need to face the fact that they need HELP from prof. coders, revers and network-gurus-which needs a BIG BIG change in acting over there.
    If they wont change - they wont get help.


    Most emberassing to admit in public that they wont get it done and stopped the project. There are enough other game-emu's out there running fine. So finally it comes down to a personal failure of the team.

    My 0.02.

    Claude

This discussion has been closed.