Originally posted by havocthefirs And thats as it should be, when you die everything should drop to your corpse, then when you get ressed you run back and get your stuff back. Ever play UO in its heyday, it was the greatest game of all time, then carebears took over with insurance, so the thrill was gone. It went like this a guild declares war on another guild then you can loot each other. If you werent in a war guild you had nothing to lose so stop you whining.
Yea UO in the old days was fun, you run out of Britain with a fresh new character and all your hopes and dreams for starting a new online life, and BAM...your dead...group of griefers waiting just outside the pass. You run back and your corpse is empty. Griefers killed old UO...people who only cared about looting others and camping popular crossings. When you finally did get to the point to where you could kill these greifers, they always ran away. Not to say this was you, just what I watched happen everyday in UO beta and UO live untill trammal came about (on Atlantic and Great Lakes server).
UO learned that the majority of MMO players cannot be trusted to act responsably or with any code of conduct in an atmosphere that did not limit or punish greifing actions that took place on a regular basis.
To be clear, I loved old UO, I eventually got to the point to where dreadlords were nothing for me to dread, but I understand why many players wanted a change and why those changes took place.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Originally posted by havocthefirs If you cant loot everything from a fallen foe why bother with pvp at all? Before anyone says "losing your gear is game breaking" lets dispell that myth. If your gear is crafted it will be relatively cheap and easy to replace. If as in wow (the worst game ive ever played in mho) the gear is epic, well all the gear is epic so again it doesnt really matter. Let me clarify on the looting. If a guild declares war on another guild and that guild accepts the state of war then they can loot each other. If you wish to participate in that kind of pvp then you can join a war guild. So unless the actual sight of seeing this is too much to bear and is somehow game breaking I dont see a problem.
either equipment is important in a game or it isnt, it either makes the charicter powerfull, or looks cool.
in spellborn it looks cool.
if equipment in a game isnt really worth anything, then its not worth fighting for. there is no point in having item looting in a game where equipment means nothing.
and in a game where equipment is EVERYTHING important about a charicter, its not popular to have player looting, because you stand to lose so much. its game breaking.
as for the WoW remark, thats your own opion, and your entitled to it. personaly i think its an ignorant one.
its certinaly no longer my taste of game, however its got over 6million subscribers, thats over 90 million dollars a month that that game rakes in.
even if its not something you would play, respect has to go to the fact that it is earning so much money, and has drawn a great deal of developers into making mmorpgs, which means a better quality of games for us.. for some of us, that means WoW is great ad we can stick with it. for people like you and me, that means we will get a game that satisfies our taste in mmorpgs alittle later perhaps, but we will get it.
unlike how the mmo industry was 5 years ago where you had a choice of about four games, or nothing at all.
Why would you need to loot anything from the people you defeat to make PvP meaningful? PvP in this game as I understand will be based around conquering territory named shards for your House with or against any of the other 4 Houses. Not much info is given on what this does for you but my guess is that controlling shards will give you benefits like shorter travel routes, extra gathering spots, more quests and outposts. PvP will actually have a lasting impact on the world as a whole which sounds meaningful enough to me.
Originally posted by amark_8 I never understood how a game with pvp looting would work. Basically the few people who started the game first could kill the others and keep stealing your gear. The few people would have fun but everyone else would just keep dying and rly couldn't accomplish anything.
Thinking back to the early days of WoW that's almost how pvp worked. High level chars from the opposite faction camping lower level areas sometimes making it completely impossible to do anything there.
Gits will always be gits.
I think the bigger problem with pvp looting is balancing the importance of gear and the ease of reacquiring it against the likelihood of losing it in pvp.
either equipment is important in a game or it isnt, it either makes the charicter powerfull, or looks cool.
in spellborn it looks cool.
if equipment in a game isnt really worth anything, then its not worth fighting for. there is no point in having item looting in a game where equipment means nothing.
and in a game where equipment is EVERYTHING important about a charicter, its not popular to have player looting, because you stand to lose so much. its game breaking.
as for the WoW remark, thats your own opion, and your entitled to it. personaly i think its an ignorant one.
its certinaly no longer my taste of game, however its got over 6million subscribers, thats over 90 million dollars a month that that game rakes in.
even if its not something you would play, respect has to go to the fact that it is earning so much money, and has drawn a great deal of developers into making mmorpgs, which means a better quality of games for us.. for some of us, that means WoW is great ad we can stick with it. for people like you and me, that means we will get a game that satisfies our taste in mmorpgs alittle later perhaps, but we will get it.
unlike how the mmo industry was 5 years ago where you had a choice of about four games, or nothing at all.
Equipment always means something otherwise it wouldnt be in the game
If equipment is overly important then dont wear it during pvp give to a non-guild char. I stated clearly that this is between consenting war guilds, also there is the matter of items that are not equipment as in your loot.
I stated that the remark about wow was my opinion, I dont claim your remarks do be ignorant so why claim mine are? WOW obviously appeals to gamers unwilling to risk anything, likely a younger generation of players.
There are NO games meeting the criteria Ive stated. Lineagre II, Shadowbane, Eve which have looting are all PKing games NOT looting between consenting guilds. UO which originally had looting between consenting guilds and a stiff punishment for PKing, now, since the aos patch a few years back, has insurance that is so cheap that you never lose anything and no penalty for Pkers. All other games are loot-free for pvp.
So you see there are no games for players such as myself to enjoy.
Originally posted by havocthefirs So you see there are no games for players such as myself to enjoy.
That is kind of sad for you. Luckily for me a game like TCoS seems ideal and to some others in this thread. May the future bring you a game you will appreciate.
I appreciate the idea of experiencing a loss of something acquired when you fall in battle with both PvP and PvE, but what the loss should be is such a gray area. Almost anyone who has played a decent amount of MMORPGs knows what it's like to get jumped by several players during the middle of fighting a mob who's already close to winning. We know what it's like to get jumped by 10+ players when we're alone. Even the best of us don't always have groups of friends around to defend us when we surely aren't able to take on a large amount of players alone. With such guarantees, it's very disheartening to lose something of much value. It only works when equipment is most disposable. No one would want to put forth 20 hours of effort to acquire an item they could lose at the whim of getting owned by unfair odds or sometimes even or favorable odds. Beyond all this lies my appreciation for an incentive to stay alive - something that creates the fear of losing so that not all players are recklessly button-smashing 100% of their PvP experience. Players shouldn't be mindlessly resurrecting and charging in time and time again just to do optimum damage to the opposing force.. That's something we see in World of Warcraft, and it should never be seen again. That kind of activity is completely brainless. WoW doesn't take much skill; it's just a shit-flinging button-smashing competition. Ideally, I think a small penalty for dying even in PvP is desirable. Otherwise, the fear of death and spirit of competition are somewhat trivialized.
Yeah, best of all just make a game where you can loot anything, with perma death, and hell, give the more hardcore players the ability to rape the corpses. I’m sure everyone will like it.
But for gods sake why the hell are you posting it in The Chronicles of Spellborn forum? You are posting about looting corpses in a game without loot? WTF?
Originally posted by havocthefirs If as in wow (the worst game ive ever played in mho) the gear is epic, well all the gear is epic so again it doesnt really matter.
You've played WoW? You do realize that it can take months to get epic equipment; your guild would first have to learn the instance, get the proper resists and be able to coordinate.
So your argument is: If EVERYBODY has epic gear, then the loss would not matter since an equivalent could be obtained by killing another player.
The logical fallacy: What if the equipment is necessary for you to kill another player?
I'm all for hardcore pvp, but I'd rather it be permadeath than equipment loss; usually, most of a game can be spent trying to obtain great equipment: Being stranded at a high level where equipment carries a high weight, without the necessary equipment to obtain new equipment, almost makes the character unplayable.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by //\//\oo Originally posted by havocthefirs If as in wow (the worst game ive ever played in mho) the gear is epic, well all the gear is epic so again it doesnt really matter.
You've played WoW? You do realize that it can take months to get epic equipment; your guild would first have to learn the instance, get the proper resists and be able to coordinate.
So your argument is: If EVERYBODY has epic gear, then the loss would not matter since an equivalent could be obtained by killing another player.
The logical fallacy: What if the equipment is necessary for you to kill another player?
I'm all for hardcore pvp, but I'd rather it be permadeath than equipment loss; usually, most of a game can be spent trying to obtain great equipment: Being stranded at a high level where equipment carries a high weight, without the necessary equipment to obtain new equipment, almost makes the character unplayable.
Yes I played WOW and yes it sux, I tried to like it I thought maybe I was missing the point but I was'nt, there is no point, just a linear childrens game.
I let my 7 year old niece play my char and she managed to throw away all my gear including my mount, after a painfully boring four days I was re-equipped, which was pointless since I sold my account soon after.
Perhaps its not your equipment that was lacking but your skill at pvp, it might be that your not the fighter you think you are.
Originally posted by outfctrl I watch my kids play WoW and they love PvP there. In WoW you lose nothing, zero, zilch, nada and they have a ball. Its the thrill of beating another player your own level, using the right moves and spells at the right time. One mistake and you are toast. Being able to loot the other person doesnt make PvP more rewarding. It is knowing you are better then the next guy. Gonna try this game out.
Finally someone that understands the true purpose of PvP. I never understood where all the non-sense about looting came from. A True PvPer doesn't want your gear. He wants to find someone that is a challenge to him/her and beat them. Thereby proving themselves better and/or stronger.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
people who go round calling themselves hardcore because they play a computer game that lets them loot another player is just sad if you ask me..oooh im hardcore i looted your corpse..actually that sound more like baby crap to me.
So if gear is easy to get and you have your own (obviously because your pvp'ing) why do you need to be able to loot corpses? I'll tell you why, because your a griefer.Real pvp'ers do it because they like the challenge of fighting a living, breathing, thinking opponent, griefers do it to screw with people because they aren't happy with their lives.I don't need to take peoples gear to make me feel like I'm an accomplished pvp'er, I killed them and that's all I need.Now go yell at your mom for some chocolate milk son.
Originally posted by outfctrl I watch my kids play WoW and they love PvP there. In WoW you lose nothing, zero, zilch, nada and they have a ball. Its the thrill of beating another player your own level, using the right moves and spells at the right time. One mistake and you are toast. Being able to loot the other person doesnt make PvP more rewarding. It is knowing you are better then the next guy. Gonna try this game out. Excellent post here. I've been a pvper since the UO days and this right here is why anyone that loves to pvp should be doing it. Not because you want to grief some low level, or loot his corpse. It's about the competition, playing agaisnt another human for pride, fun, and a display of skill. Now we all have our ideas of a perfect pvp system but when it comes down to it, this reason alone (having fun, beating the guy that is quick on the keys) is what it's all about.
These people that scream about wanting to loot people, kill low levels ect. are just as bad as the PvE fantatics that talk about all PvPers are 13 year old kids that want to loot and grief. Times have changed folks, PvPers have evolved. Scrubs that want to camp, loot and need a serious incentive to pvp are nothing but, scrubs.
Thing is i can imagine it will give PvP the extra edge, eg thers actually something at stake here. Really had that in EvE online, which really enhanced the ''battle'' feel. Still i can imagine that not being able to loose stuff is more fun though.
Well all the games i have played which is about 20 of em, Gear in most of em have been EPIC, meaning if you don't have it or its not any good you might as well uninstall the game and quit
Originally posted by havocthefirs If you cant loot everything from a fallen foe why bother with pvp at all? Before anyone says "losing your gear is game breaking" lets dispell that myth. If your gear is crafted it will be relatively cheap and easy to replace. If as in wow (the worst game ive ever played in mho) the gear is epic, well all the gear is epic so again it doesnt really matter. Let me clarify on the looting. If a guild declares war on another guild and that guild accepts the state of war then they can loot each other. If you wish to participate in that kind of pvp then you can join a war guild. So unless the actual sight of seeing this is too much to bear and is somehow game breaking I dont see a problem.
Really.... this post makes no sense, it's like if you wish you could loot other people avatar customization in pvp, it as been told time and again that the equipment have no influence but are more like avatar customization, like City of Heroes costumes.... so please, stop posting this same thread in all the forums you find, and start reading a little about the games first.
Originally posted by havocthefirs And thats as it should be, when you die everything should drop to your corpse, then when you get ressed you run back and get your stuff back. Ever play UO in its heyday, it was the greatest game of all time, then carebears took over with insurance, so the thrill was gone. It went like this a guild declares war on another guild then you can loot each other. If you werent in a war guild you had nothing to lose so stop you whining.
All this talk of "hardcore" vs "Carebear"....being able to loot fallen opponents,ect, I find rather amusing. What it basically amounts to, is you're not risking anything even with full looting options available. Why? Simple, you said it right in the above quote, you get ressed and run back. Sorry friend, that's carebear. You want "hardcore", if your character dies, that's it. Time to reroll and start over completely from scratch. Every trade skill, every fighting skill, everything starts over with the new toon. That's hard core. You want risk? Imagine having a highly developed character who's won hundreds of battles and strides into yet another challenge and suddenly the screen goes black. You die. Why? Because the assassin you failed to spot shot you with a arrow in the throat. Now you start over. You risked it all, you lost it all. That's a "serious" PvP. Anything else you care to label as carebear, as being not worth your time because there's no risk to your toon, is merely bragging rights wishing to be in effect. You can brag just as much about dropping someone and gaining face as you have to accept the risk of losing a lot of face with a defeat.
Mind you, I'm not trying to call you a sissy or imply as much...just saying that talk about 'risk' and 'real pvp' always strikes me as much 'carebear' as the notion of what 'hardcore pvp'ers' claim they're against. IMHO, you can't consider yourself a hard core pvp'er until you embrace, fully, the notion of 1 death and toon's life is over format. No rez, no reclaiming what's still on your corpse, you're dead now, having to start over from total scratch. That's risk to a toon.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Originally posted by havocthefirs And thats as it should be, when you die everything should drop to your corpse, then when you get ressed you run back and get your stuff back. Ever play UO in its heyday, it was the greatest game of all time, then carebears took over with insurance, so the thrill was gone. It went like this a guild declares war on another guild then you can loot each other. If you werent in a war guild you had nothing to lose so stop you whining.
All this talk of "hardcore" vs "Carebear"....being able to loot fallen opponents,ect, I find rather amusing. What it basically amounts to, is you're not risking anything even with full looting options available. Why? Simple, you said it right in the above quote, you get ressed and run back. Sorry friend, that's carebear. You want "hardcore", if your character dies, that's it. Time to reroll and start over completely from scratch. Every trade skill, every fighting skill, everything starts over with the new toon. That's hard core. You want risk? Imagine having a highly developed character who's won hundreds of battles and strides into yet another challenge and suddenly the screen goes black. You die. Why? Because the assassin you failed to spot shot you with a arrow in the throat. Now you start over. You risked it all, you lost it all. That's a "serious" PvP. Anything else you care to label as carebear, as being not worth your time because there's no risk to your toon, is merely bragging rights wishing to be in effect. You can brag just as much about dropping someone and gaining face as you have to accept the risk of losing a lot of face with a defeat.
Mind you, I'm not trying to call you a sissy or imply as much...just saying that talk about 'risk' and 'real pvp' always strikes me as much 'carebear' as the notion of what 'hardcore pvp'ers' claim they're against. IMHO, you can't consider yourself a hard core pvp'er until you embrace, fully, the notion of 1 death and toon's life is over format. No rez, no reclaiming what's still on your corpse, you're dead now, having to start over from total scratch. That's risk to a toon.
Well since you insist on being a buttmonkey I'll treat you like one.
Lets just take it one step further then, if you die not only does your toon get deleted but the game uninstalls itself and you have to pay another $29.95 just to play again. Happy now?
And ya wanna know something else, in the games where you loot theres no corpse camping because theres no point the loot is gone so no one ever camps an empty corpse. Also all the trash talking is always in games where you dont loot. Case in point WOW all trash talkers and no looting. So enjoy the trash talk because thats exactly what you will get, I'll be playing a game where I get the loot not the trash talk.
Originally posted by havocthefirs And thats as it should be, when you die everything should drop to your corpse, then when you get ressed you run back and get your stuff back. Ever play UO in its heyday, it was the greatest game of all time, then carebears took over with insurance, so the thrill was gone. It went like this a guild declares war on another guild then you can loot each other. If you werent in a war guild you had nothing to lose so stop you whining.
All this talk of "hardcore" vs "Carebear"....being able to loot fallen opponents,ect, I find rather amusing. What it basically amounts to, is you're not risking anything even with full looting options available. Why? Simple, you said it right in the above quote, you get ressed and run back. Sorry friend, that's carebear. You want "hardcore", if your character dies, that's it. Time to reroll and start over completely from scratch. Every trade skill, every fighting skill, everything starts over with the new toon. That's hard core. You want risk? Imagine having a highly developed character who's won hundreds of battles and strides into yet another challenge and suddenly the screen goes black. You die. Why? Because the assassin you failed to spot shot you with a arrow in the throat. Now you start over. You risked it all, you lost it all. That's a "serious" PvP. Anything else you care to label as carebear, as being not worth your time because there's no risk to your toon, is merely bragging rights wishing to be in effect. You can brag just as much about dropping someone and gaining face as you have to accept the risk of losing a lot of face with a defeat.
Mind you, I'm not trying to call you a sissy or imply as much...just saying that talk about 'risk' and 'real pvp' always strikes me as much 'carebear' as the notion of what 'hardcore pvp'ers' claim they're against. IMHO, you can't consider yourself a hard core pvp'er until you embrace, fully, the notion of 1 death and toon's life is over format. No rez, no reclaiming what's still on your corpse, you're dead now, having to start over from total scratch. That's risk to a toon.
Well since you insist on being a buttmonkey I'll treat you like one.
Lets just take it one step further then, if you die not only does your toon get deleted but the game uninstalls itself and you have to pay another $29.95 just to play again. Happy now?
And ya wanna know something else, in the games where you loot theres no corpse camping because theres no point the loot is gone so no one ever camps an empty corpse. Also all the trash talking is always in games where you dont loot. Case in point WOW all trash talkers and no looting. So enjoy the trash talk because thats exactly what you will get, I'll be playing a game where I get the loot not the trash talk.
Buttmonkey? Good thing my ego isn't as sensitive as yours is. I thought I had pointed out that I implied no offense, if there was any taken, it was because you chose to interpret it that way. As for "knowing something else"...your rebuttal there is to take my point to a illogical extreme in a vain attempt to make my post seem flawed. It's a common tactic of those who go into a highly defensive stance because they cannot reply with a more articulate and constructive counterpoint. If we allowed your version of 'the next level" to take place, I'd dare to say such a game would never sell as the consumer would rightfully feel they are tossing their money away frivolously Though you really don't deserve it, I'll offer a counterpoint to your above statement, that is if you can put your defensiveness aside and approach this with your intellect instead of your ego.
The 1 life per toon in a PvP game is not a new idea. It's been around for a while and it causes many players to balk at it. Justifiably so, because traditionally, MMOGs are all about time sinks, and to develop a character into a strong presence takes a great deal of time, a good portion of which involves trial and error and in a environment such as that, error would very likely require more than one restart. Just the same, it is acknowledged as being the only real model to be considered "hard core PvP". The flaw with this level of PvP play within a MMOG environment stems from trying to merge it with the traditional time sink acceptance. A MMOG that embraced this level of PvP would have to give up on a leveling system any more taxing than say Diablo II's system. Also, such draconian consequences must have significant rewards to motivate a player to risk a reroll every time they enter combat. What sorts of rewards can a game developer integrate into a game environment to make such a risk worthwhile then?
So a compromise between the two ends has to be sought out, WoW's is the no consequence model. When you claim there is no risk, you're absolutely correct, but there is also no gain. Some would claim that the PvP rewards in WoW are the gain, but you could acquire those by logging in and just parking the toon somewhere, faction rep is earned whether you participate or not depending on whether or not the team wins (and this is how those companies who sell rep gains do it). The other end is the 1 death you must reroll and lose everything tied to the character, with the reward model a hotly debated topic that IMO has yet to see a solution that is both logical (from a game dynamic POV) and worthwhile in a player's eyes. Both of these approaches are flawed in different ways IMO.
The right to loot a fallen foe is a common sought out element because it addresses the human urge to take trophies of one's kill, and to know that a level of inconvenience has been inflicted upon a fellow player. Much of this style of PvP is for the pleasure of knowing that one has caused aggravation, rather than any sense of risking anything. The smart players typically don't equip anything they can't afford to lose, carrying little in the way of valuables on them to begin with. Those who don't start off smart, will soon get that way, and the end result is hollow trophies and the real prize being, being able to grief. Developers walk a tightrope here, and no matter how they handle it, they will get criticized by those who aren't getting what they want, and frequently, their wants are as mercurial as their sense of honor is.
My point remains the same here: Player corpse looting is no more "hard core" than the no consequence model is, one is just a degree less carebear than the other. Reputation reward/penalty systems are just as viable a compromise as corpse looting is for a PvP centric game. This might not be your preferred system, but that makes it no less valid of a solution to address risk/reward content. In both systems, gear has to take on a much lesser importance than in game systems where gear is important, the why of it should be obvious to one of your claimed level of experience.
IMO, this system is just fine, since gear has no bearing other than cosmetic level. I still find that the one who came closet to the ideal PvP model was Shadowbane...in concept at least. In practice it had far too many flaws, it's follow through was horrible and there are host of problems which for the sake of brevity, I'll spare you of. But the salient point I wish to make about Shadowbane is that the risk/reward of that system was that far more than your corpse was lootable....your entire kingdom could be at stake. That's what a PvP centric game should strive for, if a game came along that took the spirit of Shadowbane and fixed its myriad flaws...that's be the game I'd play for life. Everything else would pale by comparison.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Comments
Yea UO in the old days was fun, you run out of Britain with a fresh new character and all your hopes and dreams for starting a new online life, and BAM...your dead...group of griefers waiting just outside the pass. You run back and your corpse is empty. Griefers killed old UO...people who only cared about looting others and camping popular crossings. When you finally did get to the point to where you could kill these greifers, they always ran away. Not to say this was you, just what I watched happen everyday in UO beta and UO live untill trammal came about (on Atlantic and Great Lakes server).
UO learned that the majority of MMO players cannot be trusted to act responsably or with any code of conduct in an atmosphere that did not limit or punish greifing actions that took place on a regular basis.
To be clear, I loved old UO, I eventually got to the point to where dreadlords were nothing for me to dread, but I understand why many players wanted a change and why those changes took place.
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
in spellborn it looks cool.
if equipment in a game isnt really worth anything, then its not worth fighting for.
there is no point in having item looting in a game where equipment means nothing.
and in a game where equipment is EVERYTHING important about a charicter, its not popular to have player looting, because you stand to lose so much.
its game breaking.
as for the WoW remark, thats your own opion, and your entitled to it.
personaly i think its an ignorant one.
its certinaly no longer my taste of game, however its got over 6million subscribers, thats over 90 million dollars a month that that game rakes in.
even if its not something you would play, respect has to go to the fact that it is earning so much money, and has drawn a great deal of developers into making mmorpgs, which means a better quality of games for us..
for some of us, that means WoW is great ad we can stick with it.
for people like you and me, that means we will get a game that satisfies our taste in mmorpgs alittle later perhaps, but we will get it.
unlike how the mmo industry was 5 years ago where you had a choice of about four games, or nothing at all.
Why would you need to loot anything from the people you defeat to make PvP meaningful? PvP in this game as I understand will be based around conquering territory named shards for your House with or against any of the other 4 Houses. Not much info is given on what this does for you but my guess is that controlling shards will give you benefits like shorter travel routes, extra gathering spots, more quests and outposts. PvP will actually have a lasting impact on the world as a whole which sounds meaningful enough to me.
Thinking back to the early days of WoW that's almost how pvp worked. High level chars from the opposite faction camping lower level areas sometimes making it completely impossible to do anything there.
Gits will always be gits.
I think the bigger problem with pvp looting is balancing the importance of gear and the ease of reacquiring it against the likelihood of losing it in pvp.
Oh UO I miss it so. "sniff"
either equipment is important in a game or it isnt, it either makes the charicter powerfull, or looks cool.
in spellborn it looks cool.
if equipment in a game isnt really worth anything, then its not worth fighting for.
there is no point in having item looting in a game where equipment means nothing.
and in a game where equipment is EVERYTHING important about a charicter, its not popular to have player looting, because you stand to lose so much.
its game breaking.
as for the WoW remark, thats your own opion, and your entitled to it.
personaly i think its an ignorant one.
its certinaly no longer my taste of game, however its got over 6million subscribers, thats over 90 million dollars a month that that game rakes in.
even if its not something you would play, respect has to go to the fact that it is earning so much money, and has drawn a great deal of developers into making mmorpgs, which means a better quality of games for us..
for some of us, that means WoW is great ad we can stick with it.
for people like you and me, that means we will get a game that satisfies our taste in mmorpgs alittle later perhaps, but we will get it.
unlike how the mmo industry was 5 years ago where you had a choice of about four games, or nothing at all.
Equipment always means something otherwise it wouldnt be in the game
If equipment is overly important then dont wear it during pvp give to a non-guild char. I stated clearly that this is between consenting war guilds, also there is the matter of items that are not equipment as in your loot.
I stated that the remark about wow was my opinion, I dont claim your remarks do be ignorant so why claim mine are? WOW obviously appeals to gamers unwilling to risk anything, likely a younger generation of players.
There are NO games meeting the criteria Ive stated. Lineagre II, Shadowbane, Eve which have looting are all PKing games NOT looting between consenting guilds. UO which originally had looting between consenting guilds and a stiff punishment for PKing, now, since the aos patch a few years back, has insurance that is so cheap that you never lose anything and no penalty for Pkers. All other games are loot-free for pvp.
So you see there are no games for players such as myself to enjoy.
--
Delanor
I appreciate the idea of experiencing a loss of something acquired when you fall in battle with both PvP and PvE, but what the loss should be is such a gray area.
Almost anyone who has played a decent amount of MMORPGs knows what it's like to get jumped by several players during the middle of fighting a mob who's already close to winning.
We know what it's like to get jumped by 10+ players when we're alone.
Even the best of us don't always have groups of friends around to defend us when we surely aren't able to take on a large amount of players alone.
With such guarantees, it's very disheartening to lose something of much value. It only works when equipment is most disposable.
No one would want to put forth 20 hours of effort to acquire an item they could lose at the whim of getting owned by unfair odds or sometimes even or favorable odds.
Beyond all this lies my appreciation for an incentive to stay alive - something that creates the fear of losing so that not all players are recklessly button-smashing 100% of their PvP experience. Players shouldn't be mindlessly resurrecting and charging in time and time again just to do optimum damage to the opposing force.. That's something we see in World of Warcraft, and it should never be seen again. That kind of activity is completely brainless. WoW doesn't take much skill; it's just a shit-flinging button-smashing competition.
Ideally, I think a small penalty for dying even in PvP is desirable.
Otherwise, the fear of death and spirit of competition are somewhat trivialized.
Yeah, best
of all just make a game where you can loot anything, with perma death, and
hell, give the more hardcore players the ability to rape the corpses. I’m sure
everyone will like it.
But for
gods sake why the hell are you posting it in The Chronicles of Spellborn forum?
You are posting about looting corpses in a game without loot? WTF?
Couldn't agree with you more. Some of us have jobs and kids and have limited freetime.
You've played WoW? You do realize that it can take months to get epic equipment; your guild would first have to learn the instance, get the proper resists and be able to coordinate.
So your argument is: If EVERYBODY has epic gear, then the loss would not matter since an equivalent could be obtained by killing another player.
The logical fallacy: What if the equipment is necessary for you to kill another player?
I'm all for hardcore pvp, but I'd rather it be permadeath than equipment loss; usually, most of a game can be spent trying to obtain great equipment: Being stranded at a high level where equipment carries a high weight, without the necessary equipment to obtain new equipment, almost makes the character unplayable.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
You've played WoW? You do realize that it can take months to get epic equipment; your guild would first have to learn the instance, get the proper resists and be able to coordinate.
So your argument is: If EVERYBODY has epic gear, then the loss would not matter since an equivalent could be obtained by killing another player.
The logical fallacy: What if the equipment is necessary for you to kill another player?
I'm all for hardcore pvp, but I'd rather it be permadeath than equipment loss; usually, most of a game can be spent trying to obtain great equipment: Being stranded at a high level where equipment carries a high weight, without the necessary equipment to obtain new equipment, almost makes the character unplayable.
Yes I played WOW and yes it sux, I tried to like it I thought maybe I was missing the point but I was'nt, there is no point, just a linear childrens game.
I let my 7 year old niece play my char and she managed to throw away all my gear including my mount, after a painfully boring four days I was re-equipped, which was pointless since I sold my account soon after.
Perhaps its not your equipment that was lacking but your skill at pvp, it might be that your not the fighter you think you are.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
So if gear is easy to get and you have your own (obviously because your pvp'ing) why do you need to be able to loot corpses? I'll tell you why, because your a griefer.Real pvp'ers do it because they like the challenge of fighting a living, breathing, thinking opponent, griefers do it to screw with people because they aren't happy with their lives.I don't need to take peoples gear to make me feel like I'm an accomplished pvp'er, I killed them and that's all I need.Now go yell at your mom for some chocolate milk son.
All this talk of "hardcore" vs "Carebear"....being able to loot fallen opponents,ect, I find rather amusing. What it basically amounts to, is you're not risking anything even with full looting options available. Why? Simple, you said it right in the above quote, you get ressed and run back. Sorry friend, that's carebear. You want "hardcore", if your character dies, that's it. Time to reroll and start over completely from scratch. Every trade skill, every fighting skill, everything starts over with the new toon. That's hard core. You want risk? Imagine having a highly developed character who's won hundreds of battles and strides into yet another challenge and suddenly the screen goes black. You die. Why? Because the assassin you failed to spot shot you with a arrow in the throat. Now you start over. You risked it all, you lost it all. That's a "serious" PvP. Anything else you care to label as carebear, as being not worth your time because there's no risk to your toon, is merely bragging rights wishing to be in effect. You can brag just as much about dropping someone and gaining face as you have to accept the risk of losing a lot of face with a defeat.
Mind you, I'm not trying to call you a sissy or imply as much...just saying that talk about 'risk' and 'real pvp' always strikes me as much 'carebear' as the notion of what 'hardcore pvp'ers' claim they're against. IMHO, you can't consider yourself a hard core pvp'er until you embrace, fully, the notion of 1 death and toon's life is over format. No rez, no reclaiming what's still on your corpse, you're dead now, having to start over from total scratch. That's risk to a toon.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
All this talk of "hardcore" vs "Carebear"....being able to loot fallen opponents,ect, I find rather amusing. What it basically amounts to, is you're not risking anything even with full looting options available. Why? Simple, you said it right in the above quote, you get ressed and run back. Sorry friend, that's carebear. You want "hardcore", if your character dies, that's it. Time to reroll and start over completely from scratch. Every trade skill, every fighting skill, everything starts over with the new toon. That's hard core. You want risk? Imagine having a highly developed character who's won hundreds of battles and strides into yet another challenge and suddenly the screen goes black. You die. Why? Because the assassin you failed to spot shot you with a arrow in the throat. Now you start over. You risked it all, you lost it all. That's a "serious" PvP. Anything else you care to label as carebear, as being not worth your time because there's no risk to your toon, is merely bragging rights wishing to be in effect. You can brag just as much about dropping someone and gaining face as you have to accept the risk of losing a lot of face with a defeat.
Mind you, I'm not trying to call you a sissy or imply as much...just saying that talk about 'risk' and 'real pvp' always strikes me as much 'carebear' as the notion of what 'hardcore pvp'ers' claim they're against. IMHO, you can't consider yourself a hard core pvp'er until you embrace, fully, the notion of 1 death and toon's life is over format. No rez, no reclaiming what's still on your corpse, you're dead now, having to start over from total scratch. That's risk to a toon.
Well since you insist on being a buttmonkey I'll treat you like one.
Lets just take it one step further then, if you die not only does your toon get deleted but the game uninstalls itself and you have to pay another $29.95 just to play again. Happy now?
And ya wanna know something else, in the games where you loot theres no corpse camping because theres no point the loot is gone so no one ever camps an empty corpse. Also all the trash talking is always in games where you dont loot. Case in point WOW all trash talkers and no looting. So enjoy the trash talk because thats exactly what you will get, I'll be playing a game where I get the loot not the trash talk.
All this talk of "hardcore" vs "Carebear"....being able to loot fallen opponents,ect, I find rather amusing. What it basically amounts to, is you're not risking anything even with full looting options available. Why? Simple, you said it right in the above quote, you get ressed and run back. Sorry friend, that's carebear. You want "hardcore", if your character dies, that's it. Time to reroll and start over completely from scratch. Every trade skill, every fighting skill, everything starts over with the new toon. That's hard core. You want risk? Imagine having a highly developed character who's won hundreds of battles and strides into yet another challenge and suddenly the screen goes black. You die. Why? Because the assassin you failed to spot shot you with a arrow in the throat. Now you start over. You risked it all, you lost it all. That's a "serious" PvP. Anything else you care to label as carebear, as being not worth your time because there's no risk to your toon, is merely bragging rights wishing to be in effect. You can brag just as much about dropping someone and gaining face as you have to accept the risk of losing a lot of face with a defeat.
Mind you, I'm not trying to call you a sissy or imply as much...just saying that talk about 'risk' and 'real pvp' always strikes me as much 'carebear' as the notion of what 'hardcore pvp'ers' claim they're against. IMHO, you can't consider yourself a hard core pvp'er until you embrace, fully, the notion of 1 death and toon's life is over format. No rez, no reclaiming what's still on your corpse, you're dead now, having to start over from total scratch. That's risk to a toon.
Well since you insist on being a buttmonkey I'll treat you like one.
Lets just take it one step further then, if you die not only does your toon get deleted but the game uninstalls itself and you have to pay another $29.95 just to play again. Happy now?
And ya wanna know something else, in the games where you loot theres no corpse camping because theres no point the loot is gone so no one ever camps an empty corpse. Also all the trash talking is always in games where you dont loot. Case in point WOW all trash talkers and no looting. So enjoy the trash talk because thats exactly what you will get, I'll be playing a game where I get the loot not the trash talk.
Buttmonkey? Good thing my ego isn't as sensitive as yours is. I thought I had pointed out that I implied no offense, if there was any taken, it was because you chose to interpret it that way. As for "knowing something else"...your rebuttal there is to take my point to a illogical extreme in a vain attempt to make my post seem flawed. It's a common tactic of those who go into a highly defensive stance because they cannot reply with a more articulate and constructive counterpoint. If we allowed your version of 'the next level" to take place, I'd dare to say such a game would never sell as the consumer would rightfully feel they are tossing their money away frivolously Though you really don't deserve it, I'll offer a counterpoint to your above statement, that is if you can put your defensiveness aside and approach this with your intellect instead of your ego.
The 1 life per toon in a PvP game is not a new idea. It's been around for a while and it causes many players to balk at it. Justifiably so, because traditionally, MMOGs are all about time sinks, and to develop a character into a strong presence takes a great deal of time, a good portion of which involves trial and error and in a environment such as that, error would very likely require more than one restart. Just the same, it is acknowledged as being the only real model to be considered "hard core PvP". The flaw with this level of PvP play within a MMOG environment stems from trying to merge it with the traditional time sink acceptance. A MMOG that embraced this level of PvP would have to give up on a leveling system any more taxing than say Diablo II's system. Also, such draconian consequences must have significant rewards to motivate a player to risk a reroll every time they enter combat. What sorts of rewards can a game developer integrate into a game environment to make such a risk worthwhile then?
So a compromise between the two ends has to be sought out, WoW's is the no consequence model. When you claim there is no risk, you're absolutely correct, but there is also no gain. Some would claim that the PvP rewards in WoW are the gain, but you could acquire those by logging in and just parking the toon somewhere, faction rep is earned whether you participate or not depending on whether or not the team wins (and this is how those companies who sell rep gains do it). The other end is the 1 death you must reroll and lose everything tied to the character, with the reward model a hotly debated topic that IMO has yet to see a solution that is both logical (from a game dynamic POV) and worthwhile in a player's eyes. Both of these approaches are flawed in different ways IMO.
The right to loot a fallen foe is a common sought out element because it addresses the human urge to take trophies of one's kill, and to know that a level of inconvenience has been inflicted upon a fellow player. Much of this style of PvP is for the pleasure of knowing that one has caused aggravation, rather than any sense of risking anything. The smart players typically don't equip anything they can't afford to lose, carrying little in the way of valuables on them to begin with. Those who don't start off smart, will soon get that way, and the end result is hollow trophies and the real prize being, being able to grief. Developers walk a tightrope here, and no matter how they handle it, they will get criticized by those who aren't getting what they want, and frequently, their wants are as mercurial as their sense of honor is.
My point remains the same here: Player corpse looting is no more "hard core" than the no consequence model is, one is just a degree less carebear than the other. Reputation reward/penalty systems are just as viable a compromise as corpse looting is for a PvP centric game. This might not be your preferred system, but that makes it no less valid of a solution to address risk/reward content. In both systems, gear has to take on a much lesser importance than in game systems where gear is important, the why of it should be obvious to one of your claimed level of experience.
IMO, this system is just fine, since gear has no bearing other than cosmetic level. I still find that the one who came closet to the ideal PvP model was Shadowbane...in concept at least. In practice it had far too many flaws, it's follow through was horrible and there are host of problems which for the sake of brevity, I'll spare you of. But the salient point I wish to make about Shadowbane is that the risk/reward of that system was that far more than your corpse was lootable....your entire kingdom could be at stake. That's what a PvP centric game should strive for, if a game came along that took the spirit of Shadowbane and fixed its myriad flaws...that's be the game I'd play for life. Everything else would pale by comparison.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.