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Does Sigil Listen to the casual fanbase?

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  • dinkdink Member Posts: 438


    Originally posted by Kyoruto
    The way I see it, since this is my mentality. Easy games are fun because everything is just there and thusly get a lot of players behind it. Hard games don't have many players per-say... but it is where the real fun starts. I see it like Ninja Gaidan. Its so hard that you can't go and just kamikazi your way through the game. You need to somewhat learn sword play and how to deal with guys around you. You can't always use the same menovers to deal with everything. When you win it actually feels like you acomplished something.

    But thats just an awkward look at games.


    Don't equate timesinks with challenge. . .  that fallacious.
  • KyorutoKyoruto Member Posts: 794


    Originally posted by dink

    Originally posted by Kyoruto
    The way I see it, since this is my mentality. Easy games are fun because everything is just there and thusly get a lot of players behind it. Hard games don't have many players per-say... but it is where the real fun starts. I see it like Ninja Gaidan. Its so hard that you can't go and just kamikazi your way through the game. You need to somewhat learn sword play and how to deal with guys around you. You can't always use the same menovers to deal with everything. When you win it actually feels like you acomplished something.

    But thats just an awkward look at games.

    Don't equate timesinks with challenge. . .  that fallacious.

    Oh trust me I don't. I know timesinks when I see them. (Well for the most part) Just giving my veiw on what draws me to hard games and such as that. I don't know about this game personally.

    Siehst du mich
    Erkennst du mich
    Ganz tief in meinem Herz
    ist noch ein Platz f?r dich
    Ich suche dich
    Ich sehne mich
    nach dem was ich geliebt hab
    doch ich find es nicht

  • ross1893ross1893 Member Posts: 47

    Am I the only one who thinks that MMO's are time sinks? I must be crazy, because I am pretty sure sitting on a chair doing the same thing over and over again is a time sink. Which basically means every MMO(Attack -- specials, etc). So I am fairly sure that everyone that complains about time sinks should not be anywhere near this website.


    If you do not like the game....then find another one? I know its hard to do, but there is a list --> here! 


  • dinkdink Member Posts: 438


    Originally posted by ross1893
    Am I the only one who thinks that MMO's are time sinks? I must be crazy, because I am pretty sure sitting on a chair doing the same thing over and over again is a time sink. Which basically means every MMO(Attack -- specials, etc). So I am fairly sure that everyone that complains about time sinks should not be anywhere near this website.


    Oooh. . .  oversimplification hyperbole.  :)  You are a dying breed of flame warrior my friend.  Sort of like a platypus is to nature.

    In any case, there is a difference between something you spend time doing for entertainment, and game design mechanics that are specifically designed to waster a player's time.

  • ElikalElikal Member UncommonPosts: 7,912

    A worm that eats my corpse and items? How is that "Listening to the casual fanbase"???

    The very idea makes me shudder. :/

    Seriously, I must say the idea of different death penalities in the same game isn't what I like. DnL had so much of those "great ideas" who sound cool to read about but are awful in real game. Take their "migrating mobs" as example. It souded cool, like a living world, but in real game it just proved it took hours and hours just to find some mob to kill.

    I don't like games where I need too much online referece and walkthroughs to do, and this all sounds overly complicated, as if I have to read all details of possible death penalities in  a certain dungeon before I really go in. I don't want to make a science of my MMO! I prefer things more simple and straighforward. One death penality for all, not a dozen!

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • ross1893ross1893 Member Posts: 47
    Yeah my other post was unnesessary. Anyway, I see the new CR's that they rearranged as having listened to thier casual fans. The way I am reading it is that when you are soloing you may not fight the mob that will take your stuff or as much of it. But while you are in a group you may fight that harder mob that can steal your corpse, but you are in a group which makes it easier to regroup and find a new strategy if you were to wipe.

    Seeing that the stated aim of the game is at grouping this makes sense. Soloing is as casual as grouping is. Basically just like WoW was only a bit more group focused. Thats the way I see the game moving. 

  • ZippyZippy Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,412


    Originally posted by ross1893
    The way I am reading it is that when you are soloing you may not fight the mob that will take your stuff or as much of it. But while you are in a group you may fight that harder mob that can steal your corpse, but you are in a group which makes it easier to regroup and find a new strategy if you were to wipe.




    Not neccessariuly the case the hiugh threat mobs are there for casual/solo content as well as raid and group content.  In all play styles they have mobs with high and low threat content.  But to get the best loot in the game you have to fight the high threat mobs in raid, group and solo/casual content. But as the game is centered around grop content and the majority of content is made for single groups you should find more of the high threat mobs needing groups there rather than in the solo/casual dungeons or raid dungeons.

    If you like to solo you will still have the oppurtunity to fight high threat mobs which will drop the games best loot.  Which poses the question rather than a mob eating your coprse how will they make corpse recovery in solo/casual content more difficult other than mob digesting your coprse? 

  • dinkdink Member Posts: 438

    Why call them high threat mobs though?   Shouldn't they be called high penalty mobs?

  • ZippyZippy Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,412


    Originally posted by dink


    Why call them high threat mobs though?   Shouldn't they be called high penalty mobs?


    Heh it doesen't matter what anyone calls them to me.  I guess it all depends on whether you are trying to trash or hype the game.  If you want to trash the game or subtley put the game down call them high penalty mobs.  If your a big fanboy call them high challenge or big loot mobs.  If you want people to know what your talking and don't have an agenda just call them what the devs call them high threat mobs.
  • dinkdink Member Posts: 438

    It's not about subtlety hyping or putting down the game. . .  it's about the fact that the whole system is set up to try to keep players thinking that penalties = challenge.  That isn't true.  My point is that the devs are using inappropriate langauge.

  • ZippyZippy Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 1,412


    Originally posted by dink


    It's not about subtlety hyping or putting down the game. . .  it's about the fact that the whole system is set up to try to keep players thinking that penalties = challenge.  That isn't true.  My point is that the devs are using inappropriate langauge.



    The same argument cpuld be made that its about telling players there is greater reward or that the mob is harder and a higher threat.  Its all about how you want to look at it.  If you hate the game and want to tell everyone in the world over and over in every post how bad you think it is then high penalty mobs may be the appropiate wording  that you wood choose.  

    I like high threat mobs.  You can indicate lots of things to to the players in the name but above all else you want players to understand these are harder encounters and go in with their eyes open. The mobs are simply tougher and a bigger challenge. 

  • mbbladembblade Member Posts: 747
    i don't really think many peeps listen to the casual people much, ecspecially when they say its not for casual players

  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,311


    Originally posted by Elikal
    A worm that eats my corpse and items? How is that "Listening to the casual fanbase"???
    The very idea makes me shudder. :/

    umm did you actually read the article? or just that one part? because the worm example has nothing to do with casual play, its the part about having lesser death penalties and some encounters that require no Cr at all that i refer to as "listening to the casual fanbase".

  • dinkdink Member Posts: 438


    Originally posted by baphamet


    Originally posted by Elikal
    A worm that eats my corpse and items? How is that "Listening to the casual fanbase"???
    The very idea makes me shudder. :/

    umm did you actually read the article? or just that one part? because the worm example has nothing to do with casual play, its the part about having lesser death penalties and some encounters that require no Cr at all that i refer to as "listening to the casual fanbase".


    Here's the thing that you guys and evidently the Sigil reps don't get about casual players. 

    Casual players WANT a challenge.  They simply don't want timesinks or content that is difficult to access due to out-of-game constraints. . .   like raids that require you to join uber guilds and/or take so long that you have to plan an evening around them.

    So all this really does is hide the fact that there will be extreme timesinks by attaching the timesinks to the most challenging content.  Sure, people could choose to AVOID this content, but who wants to avoid content?  We all want to fight the dragon. . .  it's just that the majority of us don't want to spend 1-3 hours recovering our gear and gaining back lost xp if that dragon eats us.

    It's fairly smart how they are doing it though.  With just the extreme hardcore death penalties they had before, your casual player would get upset and leave immediatley.  By making these death penalties more rare, they'll hide their existance from some players for a long time.  Casual players who can't play frequently might even pay a month's subscription before they leave.

    It's obnoxious to actually pair challenge with higher penalties, IMO.  I think people are starting to see through the differences between a penalizing timesink and a difficult challenge. . .  this scaling of both together will cause a whole new set of stupid gamers who are trained into equating timesinks with challenge.

  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,311


    Originally posted by dink
    Here's the thing that you guys and evidently the Sigil reps don't get about casual players. 
    Casual players WANT a challenge.  They simply don't want timesinks or content that is difficult to access due to out-of-game constraints. . .   like raids that require you to join uber guilds and/or take so long that you have to plan an evening around them.
    So all this really does is hide the fact that there will be extreme timesinks by attaching the timesinks to the most challenging content.  Sure, people could choose to AVOID this content, but who wants to avoid content?  We all want to fight the dragon. . .  it's just that the majority of us don't want to spend 1-3 hours recovering our gear and gaining back lost xp if that dragon eats us.
    It's fairly smart how they are doing it though.  With just the extreme hardcore death penalties they had before, your casual player would get upset and leave immediatley.  By making these death penalties more rare, they'll hide their existance from some players for a long time.  Casual players who can't play frequently might even pay a month's subscription before they leave.
    It's obnoxious to actually pair challenge with higher penalties, IMO.  I think people are starting to see through the differences between a penalizing timesink and a difficult challenge. . .  this scaling of both together will cause a whole new set of stupid gamers who are trained into equating timesinks with challenge.


    i do see where you are coming from about wanting a challenge without the timesink, but its already been pointed out that not all high threat mobs will take hours to get to (like deep in a dungeon).

    and for a player that is not casual, strict death penalty's do make it more challenging when trying to build your character and you keep wiping.

    they can make the content as challenging as they want, they can make it to where if someone were to make one mistake then the whole group wipes. and when you have strict death penalties plus a small margin for error because the content itself is so hard, that does make it more difficult IMO.

    i know a casual player still wants a challenge, they want less tedium, and some want instant travel. alot of casuals want to play a game 10 hours a week and still be the best or have the best gear....and some of them want every single game to be made just for them, its ridiculous. ::::12::

    if i was a true casual player and could only play 10 hours per week or less, i sure as hell wouldn't be playing vanguard, but that is just me.

  • dinkdink Member Posts: 438



    Originally posted by baphamet

    less tedium, and some want instant travel. alot of casuals want to play a game 10 hours a week and still be the best or have the best gear....and some of them want every single game to be made just for them, its ridiculous. ::::12::



    Well, you are almost right here.  I don't think casual players want to be "the best" or have the best gear without it being challenging or investing effort in the game.  They just want to be ABLE to be the best or be ABLE to get the best gear without changing their lives around a video game. 

    A lot of us like playing MMOs, but simply don't want to have to join an uber guild, plan our lives around a raiding night, or feel like we are playing a game that penalizes so harshly.  For adults who have about 10-20 hours/week of free-time, a death penalty that steals 3 of those hours is intolerable.

    Plus there are other options.  You are completley correct about that part, and it is the reason that you don't see casual gamers in large numbers on Vanguard forums.  Most of them don't know about the game, but even the ones that do know about it generally just read the FAQ and figure out that the game is definitely not for them.

    However, this game will NEVER stop hearing from them even though it is being designed for hardcore gamers with lots of timesinks and penalties.  There will always be the hardcore gamer's friends who play it, or the people who pick it up because the game won't advertise (PENALTIES AND TIMESINKS GALORE!) on the box.  :)  That would be dumb of them.

    My guess is that even a game as intricate and feature-deep as Vanguard (well, if they get it all working and get the live game to look like the screenshots instead of what it looks like in action) will only survive in obscurity. . .   It will be one of those slightly followed games like CoH/CoV with a core group that keeps the game in the black, but it will never be a success like WoW. . .  or like it's upcoming competitors (who are taking a page out of WoW's book and removing timesinks from their games).

  • CalissCaliss Member Posts: 9


    Originally posted by dink


     For adults who have about 10-20 hours/week of free-time, a death penalty that steals 3 of those hours is intolerable.



    Speak for yourself please. This is your opinion, don't think everybody share the same vision. I do think that if you want to take the risk from time to time and that you have the penalty, it's a reasonable system. As a casual you may not want to take risk of penalty all the time but then maybe you can be in the mood at some points and then this game will allow it. On the contrary i find their system clever. Not in the mood of having a great penalty ? ok today i'm not taking the risk but can still have fun ... in the mood for more adventure than usual ? let's go deep in this dungeon see if i can beat this challenge and let's be prepared to pay it if i suck. I like it.


  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    Sigil listen as much to the casuals as I listen to FoH! 

    Only difference, Sigil try to lie and please to the casuals, with complex, overly long, pointless explanation where they say...we shaft casuals...yet if you read casually, you believe it is casual friendly.  Me I openly tell FoH that they are trash and that they can (*%/$(* away! 

    Sigil listen to casuals?  ROFL.  Yeah, just to shaft them better! 

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433


    Originally posted by Caliss

    Originally posted by dink


     For adults who have about 10-20 hours/week of free-time, a death penalty that steals 3 of those hours is intolerable.



    Speak for yourself please. This is your opinion, don't think everybody share the same vision. I do think that if you want to take the risk from time to time and that you have the penalty, it's a reasonable system. As a casual you may not want to take risk of penalty all the time but then maybe you can be in the mood at some points and then this game will allow it. On the contrary i find their system clever. Not in the mood of having a great penalty ? ok today i'm not taking the risk but can still have fun ... in the mood for more adventure than usual ? let's go deep in this dungeon see if i can beat this challenge and let's be prepared to pay it if i suck. I like it.




    Zzzz

    Risk is fun, losing 3 hours is not fun, not even for me, and I am no casual.  I can deal with losing 3 hours, I won't be happy and I am not a casual.

    The overwhelming majority of casuals find the debt system in CoH to be terrible and look at it with dread.

    Peoples try to define casual and hardcore with an amount of time per week.  Even if I would play the game only 1 hour I would be more hardcore than these crybabies at FoH!  Sooo...all is relative to HOW you play rather than the amount of time.  Nearly all casuals can't stand a 3 hours setback.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • CalissCaliss Member Posts: 9
    where the risk if you don't loose anything... you have to be logical at some point ^^  Loose money and then you have to farm to get your cash back ? that doesn't sound like a risk to me... Corpse run does.

    Plus some people are saying that corpse run is loosing hours. I'm saying it's part of the game. It can be done in group and you can have lot of fun doing it. Just because you don't gain your pixel of xp easily doesn't mean it's not fun. I can remember lot of corpse runs in eq1 where i had fun with friends.



    And please just give YOUR opinion, we don't care about your "i know how the
    other people play and what they think and i will tell you". The world is obviously more
    rich than what you think. We all have different taste, no matter the
    time we have.








  • VengefulVengeful Member Posts: 473


    Originally posted by Anofalye

    Zzzz

    Risk is fun, losing 3 hours is not fun, not even for me, and I am no casual.  I can deal with losing 3 hours, I won't be happy and I am not a casual.

    The overwhelming majority of casuals find the debt system in CoH to be terrible and look at it with dread.

    Peoples try to define casual and hardcore with an amount of time per week.  Even if I would play the game only 1 hour I would be more hardcore than these crybabies at FoH!  Sooo...all is relative to HOW you play rather than the amount of time.  Nearly all casuals can't stand a 3 hours setback.



    You didn't really read the info in the OP did you. The penalty is graduated with respect to your play style, the loot, and how much time you have to play.

    If you don't want to face a corpse run, don't go up against higher threat mobs, and you'll simply be ported to your bind point with a small XP penalty and/or gear damage (money sink)

    If you are feeling more risky, fight some mid ranged thread level mobs, risk losing a bag of gear or your corpse with a XP hit. Your bag or corpse will return to you after an alotted time, so if that's it for you for the night, log off and tomorrow you'll have your gear back.

    If you've got alot of time to spare and are feeling really risky, do a dungeon crawl or and fighter high threat level mobs. You risk a full on corpse run and XP penalty. Some raid bosses might not even give your corpse back until after you kill it.

    Sounds like you can play the game however you like and still have a good time =)

    image

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433


    Originally posted by Caliss
    where the risk if you don't loose anything... you have to be logical at some point ^^  Loose money and then you have to farm to get your cash back ? that doesn't sound like a risk to me... Corpse run does.

    Plus some people are saying that corpse run is loosing hours. I'm saying it's part of the game. It can be done in group and you can have lot of fun doing it. Just because you don't gain your pixel of xp easily doesn't mean it's not fun. I can remember lot of corpse runs in eq1 where i had fun with friends.


    And please just give YOUR opinion, we don't care about your "i know how the other people play and what they think and i will tell you". The world is obviously more rich than what you think. We all have different taste, no matter the time we have.


    All that matter is WHAT is lost.  3 hours of "hardwork" lost is unbearable for nearly all my friends, while me, I hardly flinch, smile evilly and overcome it.  Your attitude is negative on everyone else, the fact the majority of players are casuals and can't stand a 3 hours lost is too hard on you, you can't come to terms with it.  Me I don't even flinch.

    Personnally I would be in favor of DEBT (95% of the players care about these) and an amount of lives per months (now the 5% remaining will care), but I know FoH crybabies can't stand an amount of lives per month, it mean that they wouldn't be able to zerg anymore and that they would go down the shaft. 

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433


    Originally posted by Vengeful
    You didn't really read the info in the OP did you. The penalty is graduated with respect to your play style, the loot, and how much time you have to play.
    If you don't want to face a corpse run, don't go up against higher threat mobs, and you'll simply be ported to your bind point with a small XP penalty and/or gear damage (money sink)
    If you are feeling more risky, fight some mid ranged thread level mobs, risk losing a bag of gear or your corpse with a XP hit. Your bag or corpse will return to you after an alotted time, so if that's it for you for the night, log off and tomorrow you'll have your gear back.
    If you've got alot of time to spare and are feeling really risky, do a dungeon crawl or and fighter high threat level mobs. You risk a full on corpse run and XP penalty. Some raid bosses might not even give your corpse back until after you kill it.
    Sounds like you can play the game however you like and still have a good time =)



    We know each other from a long time Vengy-mafoo.

    Whatever they do, unless it is permadeath (which would be bad), I can deal and cope with the death system.

    It is you that is unable to understand that for the majority of players, 3 hours penalty is too much to cope with, in your happy raiding-blindness.  Putting a "progressive risk" system isn't changing that blind fact.  Most peoples won't accept this.  There are other way around, like an amount of lives per month...casuals can cope with this, unless they are casuals with lot of time on their hands.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • VengefulVengeful Member Posts: 473


    Originally posted by Anofalye

    Personnally I would be in favor of DEBT (95% of the players care about these) and an amount of lives per months (now the 5% remaining will care), but I know FoH crybabies can't stand an amount of lives per month, it mean that they wouldn't be able to zerg anymore and that they would go down the shaft. 


    Or maybe it's just cause they don't want to be limited on the amount of time they can play? o.O

    What if you have alot of time to play at the beginning of the month, and you die alot cause you're moving into a new zone, you waste your lives/month in the first week and can't play for 3 more weeks because you're out of lives?

    All this system would do would make more people cheese content so they can keep playing. Arbitrary numbers of lives per month would limit game play, not enhance it from "oldschool mechanics"

    image

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433


    Originally posted by Vengeful

    Originally posted by Anofalye

    Personnally I would be in favor of DEBT (95% of the players care about these) and an amount of lives per months (now the 5% remaining will care), but I know FoH crybabies can't stand an amount of lives per month, it mean that they wouldn't be able to zerg anymore and that they would go down the shaft. 

    Or maybe it's just cause they don't want to be limited on the amount of time they can play? o.O

    What if you have alot of time to play at the beginning of the month, and you die alot cause you're moving into a new zone, you waste your lives/month in the first week and can't play for 3 more weeks because you're out of lives?

    All this system would do would make more people cheese content so they can keep playing. Arbitrary numbers of lives per month would limit game play, not enhance it from "oldschool mechanics"


    An incremental penalty as they are doing now affect EVERY casual.

    What I suggest affect only players with LOT of times, such peoples are not considering themselves casuals and are available to meet the challenge or start new toons, as needed.

    While the casuals affected by an INCREMENTAL penalty, they may be too casuals to adapt.


    PS: Not to forget a nice side aspect in game balancing for races, not all races need to have the same amount of lives...a side aspect, but a nice side aspect.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

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