I would like to take a moment to clarify why Jedi have less new abilities and why more existing abilities were partially or fully moved into the tree, and how other professions differ.
First, we already added most of the new Jedi abilities during the Publish 27 enhancement. Things like the cure/immunities to DoTs and Snares, the toggle-able stances, the sweeps, etc. There was never a plan to add a signifcant new set of abilities past that, i.e. that was the bulk of the new stuff Jedi were planned to get until other professions had "their day" so to speak.
So when we shifted focus from just adding new abilities to the Expertise system for the professions, Jedi were an ideal candidate for a shift into the Expertise since they already had the bulk of their new abilities. It also gave us a chance to evaluate their existing abilities in the context of the fiction: things like every Jedi having access to Choke and Force Lightning, and instead offering the player choices as to how to make their Jedi more to what they want to be and not just grab-bag of Jedi abilities.
Jedi are and will be the exception to the rule. When you see the Bounty Hunter tree, you won't see existing abilities moved into the trees because the Bounty Hunter has not already received its Publish 27 equivalent enhancement.
And by the way, there are quite a few new things in the Jedi expertise trees. Tempt Hatred, Reactive Response, Force Clarity, and Strangulation are new abilities or enhancements past what any current ability can do.
The end result is that a Jedi player can choose to be the grab-bag they were before, or they can choose to make different choices and focus on things that might appeal to them more and give them the ability to distinguish themselves from the other Jedi in the game.
Message Edited by EJDev on 06-30-2006 04:11 PM
EJDev Senior Game Designer Star Wars Galaxies
So basicly, the statement saying that you wouldn't have to buy back the abilities removed with the expertise system is true...
Originally posted by KenshuAni Per EJDev: Thanks Vapor for posting this up.
I would like to take a moment to clarify why Jedi have less new abilities and why more existing abilities were partially or fully moved into the tree, and how other professions differ.
First, we already added most of the new Jedi abilities during the Publish 27 enhancement. Things like the cure/immunities to DoTs and Snares, the toggle-able stances, the sweeps, etc. There was never a plan to add a signifcant new set of abilities past that, i.e. that was the bulk of the new stuff Jedi were planned to get until other professions had "their day" so to speak.
So when we shifted focus from just adding new abilities to the Expertise system for the professions, Jedi were an ideal candidate for a shift into the Expertise since they already had the bulk of their new abilities. It also gave us a chance to evaluate their existing abilities in the context of the fiction: things like every Jedi having access to Choke and Force Lightning, and instead offering the player choices as to how to make their Jedi more to what they want to be and not just grab-bag of Jedi abilities.
Jedi are and will be the exception to the rule. When you see the Bounty Hunter tree, you won't see existing abilities moved into the trees because the Bounty Hunter has not already received its Publish 27 equivalent enhancement.
And by the way, there are quite a few new things in the Jedi expertise trees. Tempt Hatred, Reactive Response, Force Clarity, and Strangulation are new abilities or enhancements past what any current ability can do.
The end result is that a Jedi player can choose to be the grab-bag they were before, or they can choose to make different choices and focus on things that might appeal to them more and give them the ability to distinguish themselves from the other Jedi in the game.
Message Edited by EJDev on 06-30-2006 04:11 PM EJDev Senior Game Designer Star Wars Galaxies
So basicly, the statement saying that you wouldn't have to buy back the abilities removed with the expertise system is true...
...from a certain point of view.
So they are taking a page out of the Jedi PR spin Handbook.... Nice..
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars.. Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons... Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Originally posted by Gravez Could they possibly rip off WOW any harder?
Yup, this is a very slightly modded version of the talent trees from WoW. Y'know, the sad thing is they could greatly improve the existing SWG if they'd just pay Blizzard for the game core and slap their own pseudo-SW skin on the damn thing........
I remember the last major revamp of CH - I loved it and had mistakenly figured "finally $OE is doing something right!!" - then the NGE hit, I left, ended up in WoW and realized the CH revamp was just a cheap rip off of WoW hunters. Any guesses as to what WoW feature they'll rip off next?
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005 Now Playing: World of Warcrack Forum Terrorist
Originally posted by MrArchy Originally posted by Gravez Could they possibly rip off WOW any harder?
Yup, this is a very slightly modded version of the talent trees from WoW. Y'know, the sad thing is they could greatly improve the existing SWG if they'd just pay Blizzard for the game core and slap their own pseudo-SW skin on the damn thing........
I remember the last major revamp of CH - I loved it and had mistakenly figured "finally $OE is doing something right!!" - then the NGE hit, I left, ended up in WoW and realized the CH revamp was just a cheap rip off of WoW hunters. Any guesses as to what WoW feature they'll rip off next?
The major difference is that WOW does things right. How broken are these skill trees going to be and pushed to the live game so all the lemmings who pay to beta test will tell them whats broken.
The funny part to me is all the SWG fanbois who say WOW sucks are paying people to rip WOW off and will be playing a crappy version of it with a Star Wars skin.
Am I the only one who thinks it is totally retarded to give Jedi the first expertise system when they've been catered to since the invention of the holocron?
Shayde - SWG (dead) Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me. I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too. 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Originally posted by Gravez The funny part to me is all the SWG fanbois who say WOW sucks are paying people to rip WOW off and will be playing a crappy version of it with a Star Wars skin.
I could not possibly agree more with you!!
Gravez FTW!!
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005 Now Playing: World of Warcrack Forum Terrorist
Originally posted by Shayde Am I the only one who thinks it is totally retarded to give Jedi the first expertise system when they've been catered to since the invention of the holocron?
It is that old catch 22. The developers stated that Jedi and BH get the first round of expertise systems because the majority of players use jedi/BH. Then other players notice that the Developers cater to Jedi/BH and decide that they should get some dev loving and decide to switch to Jedi/BH...
#1 "no existing skills will be moved to expertise system" #2 "you won't have to buy existing skills back" #3 "you'll be completely free to pick what you want to customise your character" (the boxes with the dotted lines are to be 'preselected' r automatically selected for you as you gain the right levels. #4 "we'll be doing jedi and BH first, then the rest of the professions in two publishes" Now it's back to two by two...
Reality checks.
a] They have rarely if ever brought ANY project in on time b] Every change they make breaks more stuff. c] They haven't even stuck to their timeline for NGE d] I'd not trust them to find their own backsides with a torch, a map and a man pointing at it going... "it's there"!
Yeah, am pi**ed off. Sue me.
Oh, and @ the 'oh noes it's WoW' chorus, fierfek, there are expertise systems in EQ, EQ2, DDO, the old pen and pencil games, the old ST RPG... Just like teenagers didn't invent sex, Blizzard didn't invent MMOs.
********************* So, you all sat in camps and that was fun? *********************
Originally posted by almagill Oh, and @ the 'oh noes it's WoW' chorus, fierfek, there are expertise systems in EQ, EQ2, DDO, the old pen and pencil games, the old ST RPG... Just like teenagers didn't invent sex, Blizzard didn't invent MMOs.
Oh, and @ the 'oh noes it's WoW' chorus, fierfek, there are expertise systems in EQ, EQ2, DDO, the old pen and pencil games, the old ST RPG... Just like teenagers didn't invent sex, Blizzard didn't invent MMOs.
Good points on all a through d, especially... well, all of them.
As for WoW, we all know it doesn't have the most original features but instead is a composite of previously invented ones, but when you look at the sum of those features (such as the talent tree) that exists in WoW vs what exists in other games, it appears that the game SWG is trying to be most like (i.e., ripping off) is WoW. You're very correct, Blizzard didn't invent MMOs - it just made one that was much less buggy than much of its competition.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005 Now Playing: World of Warcrack Forum Terrorist
To all those complaining about Jedi getting the same stuff spread out, I think you need to take a step back for a minute. Jedi already have way more specials then most other professions (I can't fit all my Jedi specials on the same toolbar), giving them even more would have made them overpowered. Overpowered = everyone flocks to that profession.
People wanted profession diversity amoungst their profession, this will give that. To all those saying this will kill the game, I very much doubt that.
I think they should have revealed the BH trees this week and Jedi next week. The BH trees probably would have showed it off more then the Jedi one.
Originally posted by Obraik To all those complaining about Jedi getting the same stuff spread out, I think you need to take a step back for a minute. Jedi already have way more specials then most other professions (I can't fit all my Jedi specials on the same toolbar), giving them even more would have made them overpowered. Overpowered = everyone flocks to that profession. People wanted profession diversity amoungst their profession, this will give that. To all those saying this will kill the game, I very much doubt that. I think they should have revealed the BH trees this week and Jedi next week. The BH trees probably would have showed it off more then the Jedi one.
I can see where your comming from, taking away everything the game had - how can adding a little skill tree be bad to replace the 32 we once had.
After all they did the NGE for a better system they knew how to work and prommised less bugs - btw how is the hero of tat quest nowadays .
Originally posted by Obraik To all those complaining about Jedi getting the same stuff spread out, I think you need to take a step back for a minute. Jedi already have way more specials then most other professions (I can't fit all my Jedi specials on the same toolbar), giving them even more would have made them overpowered. Overpowered = everyone flocks to that profession. People wanted profession diversity amoungst their profession, this will give that. To all those saying this will kill the game, I very much doubt that. I think they should have revealed the BH trees this week and Jedi next week. The BH trees probably would have showed it off more then the Jedi one.
So, you are saying that Jedi had more specials than other classes? Now, it has been a few months since I played, but I didn't notice an increase in specials between the classes. Can you provide more details?
I doubt it would have made any difference which tree they showed first. I'm guessing that they showed the jedi tree first because it was probably fleshed out more than they currently have for BH. However, if they did have the BH tree finished, then they showed utmost stupidity by bringing out the Jedi first, especially since players have been accusing them of reducing effectiveness in order fill out their expertise tree.
I'm willing to bet that what happened is that the devs felt they needed to give the players some info before the USA holiday, and just threw out what they had. Now they are going to hope that everything will calm down by the time they return next Wednesday.
I don't give SOE a lot of credit, but I actually thought they'd make some changes to WoW's talent system. Again, anyone who wants to play WoW is ALREADY PLAYING IT.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by BlazinBlades Excellent post Rekrul and very true, the only problem with your post is that it has been very true for the past three years. But I am still excited about the new fantastic looking expertise system, and the content coming in Chapter 2, although I am very much looking forward to Chapter 3 for my Smuggler, until I can smuggle I will have to continue pimping out entertainers to Jedis. Thank you for your time.Once again, how do I put someone on ignore in mmorpg.com forums?
LMAO!!! All I can say is dumb...very dumb. So dumb it gave me a headache looking at it.
"I'm not a racist...I only hate stupid people..."-SinisterCB
Originally posted by KenshuAni Originally posted by Obraik To all those complaining about Jedi getting the same stuff spread out, I think you need to take a step back for a minute. Jedi already have way more specials then most other professions (I can't fit all my Jedi specials on the same toolbar), giving them even more would have made them overpowered. Overpowered = everyone flocks to that profession. People wanted profession diversity amoungst their profession, this will give that. To all those saying this will kill the game, I very much doubt that. I think they should have revealed the BH trees this week and Jedi next week. The BH trees probably would have showed it off more then the Jedi one.
So, you are saying that Jedi had more specials than other classes? Now, it has been a few months since I played, but I didn't notice an increase in specials between the classes. Can you provide more details?
Ok, I guess more is not correct. A bigger range of specials I guess is more correct. They can heal and cure DoTs, have 3 different snares, cloak, de-agro creatures/npcs, force run, detect stealthed players and a few damage specials.
Would it of not made more sense to blance out the 32 professeions that were in game? Instead they shoehorned everyone into an iconic 9... They would need to ADD A LOT to ensure people are different with jsut 9 classes.
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars.. Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons... Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Oh, and @ the 'oh noes it's WoW' chorus, fierfek, there are expertise systems in EQ, EQ2, DDO, the old pen and pencil games, the old ST RPG... Just like teenagers didn't invent sex, Blizzard didn't invent MMOs.
The retards at SOE are uninventing Star Wars Galaxies. They have no unique vision for this game. They're shamelessly ripping it off from another game company. How Starwarsy is it to play World of Warcraft with Light Sabers? They might just as well put in force-sensitive Dwarves.
If Raph Koster was the original visionary behind this game, I wish to hell he'd get off his ass and make us another one.
I'm going back to First Person Shooters until the emulator is functional. Everywhere you turn in the MMO world today, it's World of Warcrap. Been there. Done that. Boring.
Originally posted by Rekrul I sure am glad they got rid of them confusing skill trees. This is so much simpler and straightfowrward.
Well, cool, or something. Too bad in the end nothing matters. $5 says the following will happen: - Pvpers will choose the best template - Everyone else will a) whine about how weak a skill is b) whine how overpowered the best template is
Just like it was with MLS vs. MPowers.
Oh, and combat will still suck. Tap tap tap poke tap poke.
Originally posted by Rekrul Originally posted by Xcathdra Wow... 2 things ive noticed... #1... The coml;ink is not by Rogue_5... Im wondering if he has be removed / Fired... No one has really heard form him in a long time other for him to say he was sick... #2.. 28 pages of mostly I hate the expertside system and how its like WoW... With thie big of a negative feedback im guessing we shall be graced with Smeds presence before long to spin it and lie again..
Xcathdra #2: Working as intended. Look at Restuss.
#1: Apparently Rogues aren't iconic. So he went to WoW. He's crit ganking lowbies now.
ROFL crit ganking lowbies. but I predict within 2 months Smedley will have to try and stop the hemoraging again.
Xcathdra
#2: Working as intended. Look at Restuss.
#1: Apparently Rogues aren't iconic. So he went to WoW. He's crit ganking lowbies now.
ROFL crit ganking lowbies. but I predict within 2 months Smedley will have to try and stop the hemoraging again.
Originally posted by MrArchy Originally posted by Gravez Could they possibly rip off WOW any harder?
Yup, this is a very slightly modded version of the talent trees from WoW. Y'know, the sad thing is they could greatly improve the existing SWG if they'd just pay Blizzard for the game core and slap their own pseudo-SW skin on the damn thing........
I remember the last major revamp of CH - I loved it and had mistakenly figured "finally $OE is doing something right!!" - then the NGE hit, I left, ended up in WoW and realized the CH revamp was just a cheap rip off of WoW hunters. Any guesses as to what WoW feature they'll rip off next?
Fadeus has been saying we just need to wait for "epic loot" I'd have to agree with him.
Frankly, I don't care if the Jedi have to buy back old skills. At least they have something worth buying back. As a level 60 Commando, I've got one damage ability, one cone damage ability, two snare grenades, a damage grenade, and some sort of mine. Only one of which can be used with heavy weapons. I would love to see them try to fill out two full trees for me to buy back a total of like six abilities. I would give them credit for their creativity.
Some Jedi got screwed. Big deal. The system looks fine, if not particularly innovative. I'd wait and see what the other professions look like before declaring this SOE's greatest blunder yet, destined to kill the game (again).
Originally posted by Squidi Frankly, I don't care if the Jedi have to buy back old skills. At least they have something worth buying back. As a level 60 Commando, I've got one damage ability, one cone damage ability, two snare grenades, a damage grenade, and some sort of mine. Only one of which can be used with heavy weapons. I would love to see them try to fill out two full trees for me to buy back a total of like six abilities. I would give them credit for their creativity.
Some Jedi got screwed. Big deal. The system looks fine, if not particularly innovative. I'd wait and see what the other professions look like before declaring this SOE's greatest blunder yet, destined to kill the game (again).
Actually you need to give SOE credit for stealing Blizzard's creativity.
System does look good but SOE has done alot of things that looked good in the beginning only to be messed up by them. Willing to bet they dont test it enough. Put it out live full of all kinds of bugs. Then make a bunch of half hammed attempts to fix them that all turn out to pure nerfs or just illogical fixes. After awhile they will give up on it and move on to some other wonderful great new addition that will bring back all the players only to fall into the same trap as everything else.
Comments
- When this goes live, will people need to grind to get the points? Like the 80-90 for old characters?
Per EJDev:
So basicly, the statement saying that you wouldn't have to buy back the abilities removed with the expertise system is true...
...from a certain point of view.
So basicly, the statement saying that you wouldn't have to buy back the abilities removed with the expertise system is true...
...from a certain point of view.
So they are taking a page out of the Jedi PR spin Handbook.... Nice..
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
Yup, this is a very slightly modded version of the talent trees from WoW. Y'know, the sad thing is they could greatly improve the existing SWG if they'd just pay Blizzard for the game core and slap their own pseudo-SW skin on the damn thing........
I remember the last major revamp of CH - I loved it and had mistakenly figured "finally $OE is doing something right!!" - then the NGE hit, I left, ended up in WoW and realized the CH revamp was just a cheap rip off of WoW hunters. Any guesses as to what WoW feature they'll rip off next?
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
Yup, this is a very slightly modded version of the talent trees from WoW. Y'know, the sad thing is they could greatly improve the existing SWG if they'd just pay Blizzard for the game core and slap their own pseudo-SW skin on the damn thing........
I remember the last major revamp of CH - I loved it and had mistakenly figured "finally $OE is doing something right!!" - then the NGE hit, I left, ended up in WoW and realized the CH revamp was just a cheap rip off of WoW hunters. Any guesses as to what WoW feature they'll rip off next?
The major difference is that WOW does things right. How broken are these skill trees going to be and pushed to the live game so all the lemmings who pay to beta test will tell them whats broken.
The funny part to me is all the SWG fanbois who say WOW sucks are paying people to rip WOW off and will be playing a crappy version of it with a Star Wars skin.
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
I could not possibly agree more with you!!
Gravez FTW!!
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
It is that old catch 22. The developers stated that Jedi and BH get the first round of expertise systems because the majority of players use jedi/BH. Then other players notice that the Developers cater to Jedi/BH and decide that they should get some dev loving and decide to switch to Jedi/BH...
already had and make us buy it back", I expect SWG to lose 20k subs
over it.
I am so done now. It's classic servers or the emulator for me. I'm done with NGE.
#1 "no existing skills will be moved to expertise system"
#2 "you won't have to buy existing skills back"
#3 "you'll be completely free to pick what you want to customise your character" (the boxes with the dotted lines are to be 'preselected' r automatically selected for you as you gain the right levels.
#4 "we'll be doing jedi and BH first, then the rest of the professions in two publishes" Now it's back to two by two...
Reality checks.
a] They have rarely if ever brought ANY project in on time
b] Every change they make breaks more stuff.
c] They haven't even stuck to their timeline for NGE
d] I'd not trust them to find their own backsides with a torch, a map and a man pointing at it going... "it's there"!
Yeah, am pi**ed off. Sue me.
Oh, and @ the 'oh noes it's WoW' chorus, fierfek, there are expertise systems in EQ, EQ2, DDO, the old pen and pencil games, the old ST RPG... Just like teenagers didn't invent sex, Blizzard didn't invent MMOs.
*********************
So, you all sat in camps and that was fun?
*********************
WoW
SWG1 SWG2
Good points on all a through d, especially... well, all of them.
As for WoW, we all know it doesn't have the most original features but instead is a composite of previously invented ones, but when you look at the sum of those features (such as the talent tree) that exists in WoW vs what exists in other games, it appears that the game SWG is trying to be most like (i.e., ripping off) is WoW. You're very correct, Blizzard didn't invent MMOs - it just made one that was much less buggy than much of its competition.
SWG Veteran and Refugee, Intrepid server
NGE free as of Nov. 22, 2005
Now Playing: World of Warcrack
Forum Terrorist
To all those complaining about Jedi getting the same stuff spread out, I think you need to take a step back for a minute. Jedi already have way more specials then most other professions (I can't fit all my Jedi specials on the same toolbar), giving them even more would have made them overpowered. Overpowered = everyone flocks to that profession.
People wanted profession diversity amoungst their profession, this will give that. To all those saying this will kill the game, I very much doubt that.
I think they should have revealed the BH trees this week and Jedi next week. The BH trees probably would have showed it off more then the Jedi one.
I can see where your comming from, taking away everything the game had - how can adding a little skill tree be bad to replace the 32 we once had.
After all they did the NGE for a better system they knew how to work and prommised less bugs - btw how is the hero of tat quest nowadays
.
So, you are saying that Jedi had more specials than other classes? Now, it has been a few months since I played, but I didn't notice an increase in specials between the classes. Can you provide more details?
I doubt it would have made any difference which tree they showed first. I'm guessing that they showed the jedi tree first because it was probably fleshed out more than they currently have for BH. However, if they did have the BH tree finished, then they showed utmost stupidity by bringing out the Jedi first, especially since players have been accusing them of reducing effectiveness in order fill out their expertise tree.
I'm willing to bet that what happened is that the devs felt they needed to give the players some info before the USA holiday, and just threw out what they had. Now they are going to hope that everything will calm down by the time they return next Wednesday.
A** Still Raw From Your Last SWG Subscription? Come join us at RLMMO.com
LMAO!!! All I can say is dumb...very dumb. So dumb it gave me a headache looking at it.
"I'm not a racist...I only hate stupid people..."-SinisterCB
So, you are saying that Jedi had more specials than other classes? Now, it has been a few months since I played, but I didn't notice an increase in specials between the classes. Can you provide more details?
Ok, I guess more is not correct. A bigger range of specials I guess is more correct. They can heal and cure DoTs, have 3 different snares, cloak, de-agro creatures/npcs, force run, detect stealthed players and a few damage specials.
Would it of not made more sense to blance out the 32 professeions that were in game? Instead they shoehorned everyone into an iconic 9... They would need to ADD A LOT to ensure people are different with jsut 9 classes.
Xcathdra
Having access to a billion $ IP - Billions of dollars..
Having access to a massive fan base of said IP - Even more Billons...
Singly handedly alienating them due to stupidity - Priceless.
If Raph Koster was the original visionary behind this game, I wish to hell he'd get off his ass and make us another one.
I'm going back to First Person Shooters until the emulator is functional. Everywhere you turn in the MMO world today, it's World of Warcrap. Been there. Done that. Boring.
#1: Apparently Rogues aren't iconic. So he went to WoW. He's crit ganking lowbies now.
ROFL crit ganking lowbies. but I predict within 2 months Smedley will have to try and stop the hemoraging again.
Yup, this is a very slightly modded version of the talent trees from WoW. Y'know, the sad thing is they could greatly improve the existing SWG if they'd just pay Blizzard for the game core and slap their own pseudo-SW skin on the damn thing........
I remember the last major revamp of CH - I loved it and had mistakenly figured "finally $OE is doing something right!!" - then the NGE hit, I left, ended up in WoW and realized the CH revamp was just a cheap rip off of WoW hunters. Any guesses as to what WoW feature they'll rip off next?
Fadeus has been saying we just need to wait for "epic loot" I'd have to agree with him.
Some Jedi got screwed. Big deal. The system looks fine, if not particularly innovative. I'd wait and see what the other professions look like before declaring this SOE's greatest blunder yet, destined to kill the game (again).
System does look good but SOE has done alot of things that looked good in the beginning only to be messed up by them. Willing to bet they dont test it enough. Put it out live full of all kinds of bugs. Then make a bunch of half hammed attempts to fix them that all turn out to pure nerfs or just illogical fixes. After awhile they will give up on it and move on to some other wonderful great new addition that will bring back all the players only to fall into the same trap as everything else.
Kai