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POTBS Exec Producer comments on SWG
Obraik
Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,261
Thought this may be of interest, a post about SWG from the Executive Producer of Pirates of the Burning Sea 
Taken from here:
Yes, many of us. Honestly the original SW:G wasn't such a good game. Hear me out ...
It felt very little like Star Wars*. Combat was a mess. Everything was a grind. Moving around over the vast planets was painful. And the faction system was total crap. PVP combat was, of course, like 95% of MMOs, a total add-on to the PVE system. All games have imbalances in PVP, but what SW:G lacked was a basic fun combat model.
What it had, frankly, was a nice large set of professions, and a wunderbar crafting system IF you were a certain type of crafter and had a lot of time to spend on the game. Casual crafters were screwed because, as often the case, there is not much market for the third-best gun, and to make the first-best gun you had to get a mine down on that rare ore drop with the good starts back in May 2004. Distribution ad marketing also sucked at first, but got better as they added smarter shopkeeping features.
*Not like Star Wars I said above. It isn't the entertainer classes I mind, or the crafters. After all, you can live in the Star Wars universe and be a master baker if you want. But there was no way to live the core Star Wars life. The Empire was outnumbered. Rebels walked the streets. All leveling consisted of pontless story-free missions or mind-numbing repetitivity that honestly made pure grinding feel free and liberating. And never once did I feel like Luke, Han, Chewie, or Rebel Trooper Seven From The Left. And that is a waste of the franchise. They could have made a perfectly decent space-opera-western game if nobody knew it was Star Wars.
So ... why did SW:G get so much flak from the existing playerbase when it changed some of its obviously flawed systems? Well, by the time they made the changes, they had already filtered out the people who hated the game. So, they had a solid core of relatively happy folks. Then they went and changed everything.
It's like making some restaurant where eveything is really spicy, waiting until only spicy-food people patronize it, and then changing to oatmeal. 
I mean, how could they take STAR WARS and not make a MMO to rival Warcraft, the dullest universe ever (except for all the other non-Tolkein orc-dwarf-elf games). Blizzard made a much better game, that's why, and it is a crime against STAR WARS how the game has ended up, beaten and bruised.
Anyway, yes. Master Doctor, Master Medic, Master Marksman, Master Entertainer (fun!) and whatever the heck else I tried, I was there. My bodystalks te server still, in thrall to a friend's crafting account, managing harvesters. It's a living ... in the exiting world of SW:G
__________________
Paul Canniff
Executive Producer
Comments
Ummmm....okay.
So'fe Sose, Naritus, SWG- Forcibly Retired
Friends don't let friends SWG...
He does make some good points, it could have been a great generic space MMO. Seems a shame that SW was such a massive franchise because if it's not number one its simply regarded as a failure.
I don't see how any game won't feel repetitive though, it's either missions or quests which involves thousands of shoot-repeat moments to level up.
If the game was in a playable state at launch rather than half completed and unfixed I think he may have liked it a bit more, but then again so would we all including all those who got bored and left.
Actually, I agree with a lot of what the guy says. The problem is in how they handled it all. If they had spent near the time and effort to actually FIX issues, that they claim they are now, they could have really made something.
Instead, they have made a corporate policy of lieing repeatedly to the customer base. It happened before JTL when they were talking about all the work they were doing, and it turned out they weren't. They were instead working on the expansion, and has happened repeatedly since.
I think the basic design was ok, but the problem was mismanagement after release. They are so clearly clueless anymore that I continue to wonder how any of the management is still even employed.
IP is a recipe for disaster. Good IP is a guaranteed disaster.
Every single person you ask will give you a completely different story of what Star Wars is to them. The obvious clash between ep1-3 and ep4-6, the EU, the KOTOR, the x-wing/tie/XWA crowds, and just random SW fans and people oblivious to SW saga.
Warcraft has neutral lore, can do what they want, can develop the game around the gamer.
With SW, you have lore. Not one, but dozens of completely conflicting storylines and player interactions with them.
This isn't some epic discovery, it's a 100% proven fact. Every single IP based game was a recipe for disaster and has failed to deliver.
Ahh, what about KOTOR you say. KOTOR uses a few hints from SW universe, the apealing gimmicks, Jedi and tatooine for example. The scraps everything else and builds a game. In that sense, KOTOR series succeeded, because it threw away the starwarsy, and built a game and a story.
LOTR MMO will be an amusement park, Disneyland of sorts. Look at sights, just make sure to keep hands inside the vehicle at all times. It'll give a passive experience of reliving the greatest movie moment. And as such, it will disapoint.
STO might have a slight chance, but it will be passive as well. Not enough is known about the realization, but if they actually stick with the movies and series, it'll fail as well.
IP based property is looking for cheap thrills in rehashing the content. This has historically failed. But nobody learns from the past, and is only looking for highest bang for the buck, not forgetting that they simply limit themselfs to a few crumbs of a pie.
GTA: It's success goes not to only realistic world, but subtle IP tie-ins. GTA3 was miami vice. The lore, the scenery, the music, the setting, everything was done for them, they just never referenced it, and it provided a great feeling of nostalgia. GTA4 is Cops. The 3rd person chase view, the scenery, the night shadowplays, the characters. IP can only succeed if you never mention the IP, but make players feel it.
Needles to say, this is all a dream, IP milking will continue.
Snake-Eyes
![image]()
The Bounty Hunter Juggernaut
However, I still think the shortcomings of the original game could have been overcome with more content, and in bug fixing.
There is not one thing he pointed out that couldn't have been fixed.
I assume he mean't exciting in that last sentence, although I could be wrong :P
_____
When Sony and Lucas set out to create the NGE, we said, How can we do this and make it similar to WoW? We wanted it to be all about Iconic characters like Luke, combat and locking our players into a class. So we created a system that would restrict players and make all professions the same and there would be minimal gameplay around making that change. We definitely borrowed a lot of ideas from WoW that worked and figured out how to make them fit for SWG Julio Torres (2005)
Did Obraik just post message that did have negative comments from SWG?
Where you have taken real Obraik? (No you don't need to release him - just keep in him safe
.)
I fully agree with Paul Cannif's comments. SWG's empty sandbox was bad idea. If SOE/LA would have provide sandbox that have actuall content: story related quest, features that allow real combat between Imperials and Rebels and features that allow players to move hibernated galaxy forward, it would have been great game. Sandbox games are great - but they don't really work alone if players can't change world. For example in EvE this is working, because players can change world (control space).
"I know I said this was my last post, but you my friend are a idiotic moron." -Shadow4482
Seen as you like to bring these things up for pro-NGE the real question here is pre-CU & CU wasnt star warsy enough for you okay now into the NGE do you feel more like solo or chewy or luke because there picture is in your bio now?
1st there were lairs now its missions but no matter what, you still have to grind so complaining about grinding is letting everyone no MMO's aint for you (eve is the only grindless MMO ive seen so far)
I am of the opinion pre-CU or even CU would have been a great success had SOE fixed all the things they promissed (no one wants to play a cheap buggy game) and am pretty sure i would have left SWG by now NGE or not due to the amount of bugs they introduce every month.
Im pretty sure it wasnt the type of play style or lack of missions that made this game less a SW game - it has always been SOE's need for greed that has got in the way GCW intoduced then removed revamp prommised never came so all reb's and imp's wonder the same streets wondering what to do next this shows right across the SW galaxies.
Restuss introduced then removed revamp promissed and i see a pattern!
I agree with almost everything he has said.
That still doesn't make the NGE a better game, excuse their actions or take away the raw potential of the original game. Basiclly, there's an important point he's making: SOE has completely screwed up the direction of the game.
Obi- Go look at the Beta Forums for SWG, they're still archived. Originally there was going to be a third Underworld Faction, and each Faction would control a 1/3 of the non-adventure planets. Also, wearing ANYTHING Faction Related would TEF you. There plan was to have battles over planet control, that players could influance. Rank was going to be earned by actions, not grinding, and it was going to have rewards like new abilities. Last, they said that they were going to cap stats so that balancing and stacking did not become issues.
Then go to the JTL Developement pages. Originally you were goign to get Pilot Points, and the trees were going to be the 4 classes of ships: Light, Medium, Heavy & POB. You could Master 2 of those. Your Faction would determin your Ship certs. Then SOE decided it needed to be out by Christmas, so the simplified it.
They were clearly on the right track, then SOE rushed it out. SOE is the reason the original Galaxies failed, the concept was far supperior compared to the NGE mess.
I'll start my own SWG... with Black Jack... and Hookers!!!
In fact, forget the SWG!!!!
I agree, all of this guys comments point to the initial game and its percieved flaws. If, as many people say, the game was pushed out early, then many of these things could have been changed.
However, that game and what it could have been is long gone. What does he think of the changes over time? How does he feel the CU and the NGE added to the game? It is implied that he thinks the game (except for crafting and entertaining, perhaps) is now a better thing? But noone thinks it is more Star Warsy, do they? Only the tutorial gets that right. So they could build a new tutorial several years after release and it is all Star Warsy, and voila! The whole game is great?
Will Pirates of the Burning Sea have such a vast world and such profession depth? Will it live up to the producer's hopes and dreams? If it gets trashed by players for whatever reason, will he gut it and rebuild it from the ground up? Or will he stick to his original vision and build on it?
SWGs real problem is they set themselves between Episiode 4 and Episode 6 and were not willing to remain committed to the timeline (HK quests, RoTW, all of Mustafar, Jedi as starter class). The only "conflict" I saw in SW tbh was Vader being Luke's father. Watching Obi-Wan explain away the lie of "Your father was killed..." in Ep 4 by saying "He was consumed by the Dark Side - and the man who was Anakin Skywalker was no more"...please, it smelled like mid-course plot change! It just never sounded like George really intended that in Episode IV. There was no hint at all and the dialogue changing everything was weak. (I am ranting)
SWG, like the company who manages it suffers from a complete lack of integrity. It does not remain true to itself. A new movie comes out, and we just make our new content reflect the movie, to take advantage of that IP, even though it is not part of the game's timeline. So yeah, you are right about the IP milking.
I still think the SW storyline could be milked successfully, but SOE just does not have the intelligence or integrity to do so. They picked the wrong initial timeline, IMO. Ep 4-6 was more about interpersonal relationships and character development, boring stuff to kids. Ep 1-3 was as much about political intrigue and war as it was character development (Vader)...a much more satisfying environment for the game. There were more races, more gadgets, more ships, droids, factions.
In Ep 1-3, I can imagine all kinds of storylines we never saw in the movies, which gives more artistic freedom to the game developers. Ep 4-6 gives us people and a couple of furry creatures.
Milking IP gives you "Free Marketing", but at a serious cost. You MUST remain true to the story and your hands are tied. Break the bonds like SOE tried to and you end up with egg on your face.
I realize I said I quit. I never said it was forever
I can't see anything new or a different angle to what this guy says... it's all been covered on this and other forums lots of times.
Actually the only thing that sticked to my mind was this
"What it had, frankly, was a nice large set of professions, and a wunderbar crafting system IF you were a certain type of crafter and had a lot of time to spend on the game. Casual crafters were screwed because, as often the case, there is not much market for the third-best gun...etc, etc."
He, like any other leading game desingning person, try to shy away from "hard core". Why make a MMORPG in the first place? I admit grinding for hours isn't fun. But this "for the casual gamer" talk is just air anyway. They want their players to stay and pay subs, right? Then you have to have some concept of progression and reward for the time spent! The mechanics are there to serve 2 things: a mechanic to gate content to make the players stay and to make the players feel they are progressing.
I bet you won't get all the "phat loot" at once when you load PotBS for the first time!
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
one of the wise choices swg could have made was to put the time line around ep7-9 somewhere. Could have had more jedi's in the world without it being a "wtf" thing, not as many people are intimately familar with the time line of that period, there is less material already defined in that period thus giving more leeway to design things as you wish, etc. They were too restricted by current IP in alot of ways, I don't think strong IP is a diaster waiting to happen but giving yourself a static time frame in current IP certainly is... its too massively limiting to the scope of things.
Shadus
How come online card games are one of most popular online entertanment media. Millions of players, I think the numbers go over 10 million globally. No grind, no progression, very casual player friendly.
The argument that grind must justify subscription is just sugarcoating "rip-off". MMOs are one of poorest media with regard to content. No other game would get far if the storyline consisted of the fed-ex quests, that give you a bit of score points. At this point, most 40-hour gameplay FPS games have deeper and more complex storylines than any MMO.
Grind apeals to people, since investing time gives them superiority by design. But at the same time, they simply disregard much of potential playerbase, who simply won't do it.
Sounds about right for me. It wasn't perfect at first, but they only managed to make it worse!
Now... The real question is... Is he gonna learn from soneone else's mistake?
SOE knows what you like... You don't!
And don't forget... I am forcing you to read this!
I love hearing lead designers bash other games.
Maybe he needs to concentrate on HIS game?
Maybe hes upset that he cant figure out how to add 32 professions?
Maybe he dosent like crafting?
MAYBE HES JUST TO CASUAL?
Actually this guy sounds like he works for SOE
WASH RINSE REPEAT
WASH RINSE REPEAT
WASH RINSE REPEAT
WASH RINSE REPEAT
Thnx for the post, it gives me great detail into the insight of this developer.
I will be staying far away from that game now.
How come online card games are one of most popular online entertanment media. Millions of players, I think the numbers go over 10 million globally. No grind, no progression, very casual player friendly.
The argument that grind must justify subscription is just sugarcoating "rip-off". MMOs are one of poorest media with regard to content. No other game would get far if the storyline consisted of the fed-ex quests, that give you a bit of score points. At this point, most 40-hour gameplay FPS games have deeper and more complex storylines than any MMO.
Grind apeals to people, since investing time gives them superiority by design. But at the same time, they simply disregard much of potential playerbase, who simply won't do it.
Ok, it maybe came out the wrong way... I didn't mean I want grind etc... but those ppl talk about that ALL the time and NOTHING ever change. Smed said it too but the grind is still there and now you have the CLs on top of that so it's even worse!
To me the grind preNGE was nothing. You could master a prof in days. The boring part was there were nothing else to do if you lacked imagination. Hell NGE is MORE hard core than the previus incarnations as you can't max out in a week.
Again, what ticked me off was his bash towards "Hard" gaming and they all say it. "We are doing <insert whatever> to make our game casual and appeal to ALL" and still you get the same uninventive shit every time!
"There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door; those that come in by the window"
this post made me quite upset, i have been looking forward to Pirates of Burning Sea as a possible replacement to SWG in my mmo life. but this excerpt shows that it wont be an open ended sandbox, and therefore has lost my interest. cant someone just make a fucking game w/out telling me what to do in it? i hate linear questing but will do it if there's a decent reward. mainly i prefer to find my own way around and experiment to find what is fun for me. PreCU SWG allowed me to do this perfectly.
/tell raph koster "SOS, rescue us....we need a new game"
SWG ADDICT...clean since the NGE
A** Still Raw From Your Last SWG Subscription? Come join us at RLMMO.com
I doubt PotBS will have anything to compare to SWG and though I appreciate his points, I don't agree with the finer ones. What he seems to be missing is a basic understanding, alot like SOE, of the mindset of the people who gravitated to the original.
I always go back to the best games made. FF3, FF7, Uncharted Waters if you compare to PotBS. They had alot of repitition in them. The repitition was for various reasons though. Just like I spent weeks in that stupid submarine getting the loots that boosted Clouds stats to all 255, I spent weeks in that cave getting ca's. It was fun to see the combinations of junk you could get.
It's about the treasures.
If PotBS focuses on the treasures, I will live there. Treasures that make me a better toon, even better. In the case of PotBS it will be a better ship but it still works. Outfitting your crew with fabled swords, lucky bandana's, whatever. The people of SWG of old were treasure hunters. Loche's of the MMO world.