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Bringin' out the big guns

CliveClive Member Posts: 65
And now here's Clivey with another one of those controversial topics. I apologize if this has been brought up before, but I don’t remember seeing it.

Ok so there’s been a thread on RPG or FPS combat, I think it’s pretty safe to say it’s going to be some form of FPS or at least that will be an option. My question now will be “How realistic will combat be?” Whether it is RPG or FPS combat, you have to realize that this game is going to be delving into an area where few MMO’s have gone: Guns, with bullets even.

Sure there’s a few games out there who use guns as one of the weapon classes available but they are pretty much balanced with melee and magic. You know what I’m talking about CoV, MXO, hell even WoW. Now there are a couple MMOs which use guns as the primary means of attack like Neocron and FOMK, I’ve had the chance to go from early beta with both of these games and played NC on and off after release, so I am farmiliar with how the combat system worked, and how realistic it was. ? Hows that for a run-on?

So where’s all this going? Well here’s the deal. I’m a fan of more realistic combat, I’d like to know where Icarus stands for it in terms of real world damage vs taking 5 headshots and still going. In Neocron you could die fairly quickly, sometimes in one-shot (though I’m pretty sure it was programmed so it would take at least 2, but I was able to find a way around that ?) However it all depended on the weapon which was used against you. Each type of gun had 3-4 iterations for instance there was a TL 10ish assault rifle (n00b) a 40ish an 80ish and a “rare” 110ish. Now if you were a high level character and someone came up to you with a TL10 AR, you could literally take off all your armor, let him aim at your head, and unload rounds constantly into your face while you went and made a sandwich, and your health regen would almost cover what was taken off. I tested some of this stuff personally (I used Egg Salad mostly but the occasional PB and J did come up).

Anyways, I really hated the fact that just because someone was “low level” they couldn’t do anything to a “higher level”. This makes somewhat more sense in a fantasy setting where a weakling would have a hard time holding a sword let alone killing someone with it, but with a gun almost anyone can pull a trigger. Now am I suggesting we all play counter-strike? No, I’d get my ass kicked I’m sure. What I’d like to see is a real good balance between player and character skill. On one hand if some high level is not paying attention to my n00b and I am able to get the drop from behind him with a 12 gauge, he should be dead, or at least wishing he was depending on if he’s wearing Kevlar. On the other hand I’d hate to be playing for a year with the same guy just to have some n00b named Papa Smurf waste me and my friend in our hunting ground because he’s CAL-i.

I don’t claim to have a way to do this, but I’ve got some ideas. It would be nice at the least to have someone at Icarus comment on how they plan on handling it, or at least let us know if they’ve considered this yet.

A more realistic system would pretty much eliminate the ganking of random n00bs for fun, since who wants to take the chance unless it would actually be worth killing them.

If the system was “item-intensive” meaning that guns will do more realistic damage but it will be hard to get a m4a1 in working condition until later levels, and the n00bs will be stuck with nail guns to start with, but then how would one deal with twinks?

One of the aspects that I would love to see incorporated is a real detailed skill system, which might break down like so:

Ranged weapons (broad skill)
    -Rifle (Sub skill)
        -Reload
        -Fix Jam
        -Aim
        -Cleaning
        -Melee (rifle butt)
        -Handling

The broad and sub skill would be menu headers, and the 6 I had below sub would have the actual skill values. This would assume that every player could pick up a rifle (just like everyone in the real world can pick an m16 up and pull the trigger), they just might hold it the wrong way and they might really suck at aiming.

This would help with FPS combat style system / realistic damage while still having it be skill based. Example: if your aim skill was low your radius cone (whether visible in the HUD or not) would be very big, if you had a bad reload skill you might take longer to load a mag or drop shells when manually loading a shotgun. A handling skill could have a modifier on your aim and how often the thing jams. If done correctly it would ensure that a high level would almost certainly win at an appropriate range where both characters know their targets, but would still alow for a low level to kill the high level if he somehow snuck up on him.

If you wanted to go really detailed you could make it weapon specific:

Ranged weapons (broad skill)
    -Rifle (Sub skill)
        - M16   
-Reload
            -Fix Jam
            -Aim
            -Cleaning
            -Melee (rifle butt)
            -Handling
        -Garand M1
            -Reload (wait what?)
            -etc
            -etc

I'm not a coder, I dont know if this would be an immense amount of work or not but I wouldn't think so, at least not for having a really kick ass, easy to use and understand system. I think it would really attract FPS players to the genre as well as PA fans and MMORPG fans, there's something for everyone.

Whew long post, if you get through it all and have a comment (if you can remember what it was) I'd love to hear it, especially rom that FeDev guy.

Oh yeah, go France! 1-3 Baby

Clive

Comments

  • Beta909Beta909 Member Posts: 30

    I have to say thats a great idea.. I hate to bring this game anywhere near the awsomeness that will be FE, but SWG used a somewhat similiar system where you could choose a path to follow then choose what skills you wanted in that path. I.e. Marksman to riflemen or carbineer. You could do the same thin with FE as going with Pistols, rifles, etc. first then branching off into reloading, aiming, etc. as you said and slowly increase certain factors of your playing. That would be one kick butt thing to see in action. Now I dont want FE to change its style like SWG only the system they used for leveling up before the CU and the NGE.

    Beta909

    _______________________________
    Current Game: None
    (Waiting on Fallen Earth)

    Games Tried:
    Star Wars Galaxies (Pre-NGE): 9/10
    Planetside: 7/10
    Horizons: 4/10
    Eve Online: 8/10
    Asherons call: 3/10

  • CthulhuvongCthulhuvong Member UncommonPosts: 433
    Clive you're a madman. I like it all

    image
    Waiting For: something good
    Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
    Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]

  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 62

    Good stuff. With your ideas of weapon damage vs. armor, I think that SWG Classic kinda had a really solid idea for the most part. Hopefully I can clearly explain the parts that were good and throw a few ideas out to help fix the bad...

    Ok, different armor had different types of damage that they were naturally defensive against. Such as Ubese being mainly for kenetic. If you had a numerical cap for the total percentage that a certain armor type could absorb/deflect that would throw some interesting experimentation into the mix for the crafters.

    Lets say there are 4 types of damage ( just to keep it simple)

    Kenetic (projectile), Kenetic (melee), Blast, Energy

    Each type of armor would have 200 % total (just to keep it simple, testing would very much be needed to tweak this number) of resistance for the suit. For those who were fortunate enough to not have to live through the changes to Starwars Galaxies, lets use tempered steel plate armor. Naturally it would probably have a high resistance to Kenetic (melee), followed by Kenetic (projectile), then neutral to Blast, and weak to Energy as steel is a great conductor of both heat and electricity. So, naturally durring the crafting process the armor would have at least 50 % of the total 200 % wrapped up. That leaves 150 % between the other 3. If there was an 80% cap on all damage types we could up the resistance in Kenetic (melee) to 80%. This would leave 120% left to distribute to the other damage types. Since blast is neutral the cap could be around 50% and have around 5 to 10% deflection to energy as anything is going to be better than bare skin. This would make every type of armor have a place in the game and allow crafters to custom make their products.

    That could just be a start! If you include weight, noise, and bulk into the mix you make a very interactive crafting system that would still be restrictive enought that you dont end up with clones running around in mech suites of super carbon alloy with infinite stealth. Even if you cant see it you could hear it!

    This is just a start, and would depend upon the weapons power. Even if some weapons are super powerful they could be single shots (50 cal. anyone?). As it is in Day of Defeat my saying to everyone i meet is "you miss you die" this goes for me also... usually when i die it is because i missed (go figure).

    Its just an idea, and just a start at that... anyone else?

  • XilanxivXilanxiv Member Posts: 22
    Excellent expansion on Beta's idea, Calmar.   SWG did have a good idea with that, but it could be better.  I think there should be a few more and smaller division than your 4 calmar, (I know you're not saying those are the only 4 but here's more), maybe separate the melee damage type into blunt and sharp, same for ranged kinetic.  If you have a big fluffy pillow on you, and someone hits you with a club, it'll help.  If you have a big fluffy pillow on your chest and someone throws a spear at you, you're f-ing done! lol.  I remember in one screenshot a char has a catcher's chestpiece on, which would be great against blunt-melee, but nothing against a knife.  We see a hockey mask also, same deal there. 

    Maybe later in the game ammo rounds will be able to be crafted to like hollow-tips and piercing rounds, etc.  I also think maybe there should be a shrapnel type, maybe.

    Clive, I think those are some nice ideas on the skill groups, I wonder if maybe a lot of that stuff we'd have to do manually.  Think about it.  If you're gun jams, it doesn't just auto-clear after 2 secs, but you have to hit a button set to "unjam".  Your skill at Jams affect both how often it jams, how quick you can clear it, and how likely your first attempt to unjam will be.  For cleaning, you'd have to use a kit made by a craftsman, the better the craftsman the better the set.  Having a clean gun vs. dirty gun= fewer jams, slighty better acc. and dam.  You'd have to choose to clean the gun, and it would get dirty over time, not like in 3 hours, but it could have a efficiency rating, from 1-100 and when perfect, it's at 100, every, oh 10 shots, it's efficiency drops by 1, and everyday not cleaned it goes down by like 2.  So people could clean it themselves, or take it to a repairman/craftsman to fix it.  Going through water with it would take the efficiency down a bit.  Maybe the skill of the craftsman determines the efficiency somewhat.  This rating would be similar to the condition rating in SWG, though I hate the idea of the max condition dropping everytime you fix it.  Maybe just a kit could only do so much, and once every couple of weeks you'd take it to someone with repair skill for an over haul, if you use it a lot.

    Really Clive, I think you hit the nail on the head on the skill/realistic fps thing. 

    /france sucks!  some other team don't know who's playing cause I'm not a soccer freak why do they it foosball FTW
    //just kidding, I saw most of the match, great game!


  • CliveClive Member Posts: 65
    I just read that editorial about AI in the main forum, and I realized that a lot of us are doing wishful thinking. I'm sure devs of different games are reading posts like this and going "Man I wanted to be point guard for the Knicks too, but that never happened." I haven't done coding past an intro to Fortran 95, and even though I made a kickass Blackjack game, I still feel like I should know a little bit more with how games are programmed before I go blabbing about how I want this and I want that, not knowing the actual time and effort that would be needed to put into it, and feeling like an incompetent manager.

    At the same time, I'm probably never going into game design. Learning programming as just a hobby would seem counter-productive, and I couldn't stand to do it full time. I can't draw or animate to save my life. About the only thing I'm good at would be quest writing and thinking up dynamic ideas to add to the game to make it stand out and sell more boxes, and there aren't a whole lot of those "fluff" positions open.

    So I guess I'll go back to writing "wouldnt it be cool" threads and not really knowing what I'm talking about.

    What a pointless post lol, bored at work can ya tell?


    Oh yeah as long as I'm bitching, wheres my June issue of CGOnline along with my Vanguard beta? :)
  • GrimCreepGrimCreep Member Posts: 121

    Nothing to say but, "damn good idea Clive"

    Lead with your face and role with the punches.

  • Beta909Beta909 Member Posts: 30
    Most of what has been suggested on this thread is not unrealistic.. after all SWG pulled off most of the skills idea and all they would have to do is change the meaning of the numbers for that to work. As for the armour again its just numbers that absorb other numbers. I am sure it would take awhile but I dont want a game that thinks "that dosant meet the deadline I am going to throw it out" I would rather wait for a great game then play a decent game now.

    _______________________________
    Current Game: None
    (Waiting on Fallen Earth)

    Games Tried:
    Star Wars Galaxies (Pre-NGE): 9/10
    Planetside: 7/10
    Horizons: 4/10
    Eve Online: 8/10
    Asherons call: 3/10

  • XilanxivXilanxiv Member Posts: 22
    I agree beta, and I think we'll be please with how they are doing it.  I think that idea that great after 4 years is better than crap after 2, that's the impression I've gotten from them, and I like it.  The equations to do some of these may be complex, but, well all this is to me lol.  I think it would be crazy thinking to get something close to what we've said.  Either way, I'll probably be glad.


    /btw, which server did you play on SWG?  Calmar, Cthulhuvong, and I all played on Valcyn


  • RabiatorRabiator Member Posts: 358


    Originally posted by Clive
    Now if you were a high level character and someone came up to you with a TL10 AR, you could literally take off all your armor, let him aim at your head, and unload rounds constantly into your face while you went and made a sandwich, and your health regen would almost cover what was taken off. I tested some of this stuff personally (I used Egg Salad mostly but the occasional PB and J did come up).

    Anyways, I really hated the fact that just because someone was “low level” they couldn’t do anything to a “higher level”. This makes somewhat more sense in a fantasy setting where a weakling would have a hard time holding a sword let alone killing someone with it, but with a gun almost anyone can pull a trigger. Now am I suggesting we all play counter-strike? No, I’d get my ass kicked I’m sure. What I’d like to see is a real good balance between player and character skill. On one hand if some high level is not paying attention to my n00b and I am able to get the drop from behind him with a 12 gauge, he should be dead, or at least wishing he was depending on if he’s wearing Kevlar. On the other hand I’d hate to be playing for a year with the same guy just to have some n00b named Papa Smurf waste me and my friend in our hunting ground because he’s CAL-i.

    I don’t claim to have a way to do this, but I’ve got some ideas. It would be nice at the least to have someone at Icarus comment on how they plan on handling it, or at least let us know if they’ve considered this yet.



    My suggestions to this are

    1) Flatten the hierarchy of high lvl vs. low level somewhat. To extend the Neocron example, let the n00bs start with a skill rank of ~10 instead of 0/2. That also takes away the start phase where you cannot handle more than the spiders in the sewers. I would consider this an improvement.
    2) Implement the "with a gun almost anyone can pull a trigger" in the game. Let n00bs use the big guns too but limit them in things like accuracy and rate of fire. This way, the high level player still has the advantage in an open fight, but beware of the n00b who sneaks behind you and puts a bullet into your head .


    And finally a comment about the difficulties of programming:
    Developing the skill system you suggest is not rocket science. Being a software developer myself, I feel quite confident that I could pull it off. On the other hand, I have lots of respect for the guys who do the 3D engines and the networking code for a typical shooter. Those are much harder tasks
  • BoozekBoozek Member Posts: 110

    I'm sorry but any game I play when I enter as a n00b I should be  n00b. I havent ginded any lvls. I havent raided for epic items. I havent done jack except make a name and chose my features. No way in hell I should be able to compete with someone that has put in their time and effort.

    If you want a game with instant gratification go play WoW. 2 weeks you have your lvl capped avatar.

    I'd rather spend time developing a character. Doing some rp and real pvp not the gank variety. Learning to build everything I can, and kicking the snot out of the pve content.

  • RabiatorRabiator Member Posts: 358


    Originally posted by Boozek

    I'm sorry but any game I play when I enter as a n00b I should be  n00b. I havent ginded any lvls. I havent raided for epic items. I havent done jack except make a name and chose my features. No way in hell I should be able to compete with someone that has put in their time and effort.
    If you want a game with instant gratification go play WoW. 2 weeks you have your lvl capped avatar.
    I'd rather spend time developing a character. Doing some rp and real pvp not the gank variety. Learning to build everything I can, and kicking the snot out of the pve content.


    Skill rank 10 in Neocron is still pretty n00b. Capped chars tend to be around skill rank 70. But with rank 10 you can make short trips outside the city and explore a bit. Makes things more interesting early on.
    So I'm not saying that character skill should disappear completely, but narrowing the gap between n00b and capped player a bit is OK.

    And BTW:
    For instant gratification, I play Day Of Defeat. A really well made WW2 shooter with  no character building at all. Just jump in and blast away.
  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 62


    Originally posted by Rabiator

    Originally posted by Boozek

    I'm sorry but any game I play when I enter as a n00b I should be  n00b. I havent ginded any lvls. I havent raided for epic items. I havent done jack except make a name and chose my features. No way in hell I should be able to compete with someone that has put in their time and effort.
    If you want a game with instant gratification go play WoW. 2 weeks you have your lvl capped avatar.
    I'd rather spend time developing a character. Doing some rp and real pvp not the gank variety. Learning to build everything I can, and kicking the snot out of the pve content.

    Skill rank 10 in Neocron is still pretty n00b. Capped chars tend to be around skill rank 70. But with rank 10 you can make short trips outside the city and explore a bit. Makes things more interesting early on.
    So I'm not saying that character skill should disappear completely, but narrowing the gap between n00b and capped player a bit is OK.

    And BTW:
    For instant gratification, I play Day Of Defeat. A really well made WW2 shooter with  no character building at all. Just jump in and blast away.

    Um... I think you guys totally missed a HUGE part of this game. There are no "levels or ranks". You most likely wont be able to "grind" them since they dont exist. This will remove most of the ganking and whatnot. 
  • CliveClive Member Posts: 65


    Originally posted by Boozek

    I'm sorry but any game I play when I enter as a n00b I should be  n00b. I havent ginded any lvls. I havent raided for epic items. I havent done jack except make a name and chose my features. No way in hell I should be able to compete with someone that has put in their time and effort.
    If you want a game with instant gratification go play WoW. 2 weeks you have your lvl capped avatar.
    I'd rather spend time developing a character. Doing some rp and real pvp not the gank variety. Learning to build everything I can, and kicking the snot out of the pve content.


    Didn't WoW invent the term raids?

    As far as competing against high levels goes, a low level should have a slight chance IF he either sneaks up on the high level or gets a bunch of buds say 5 or so to ambush him. I don't want it to be a CS or DoD system, but i don't want it to be like WoW where if I'm level 10 and hunting with 6 other level 10 friends and we surround a level 50, that the level 50 stomps all over us. It just wont happen.

    It is going to be a delacate system to balance but that's what beta is for.
  • GrimCreepGrimCreep Member Posts: 121

    I agree with clive on this one. Maybe a snowballs chance in hell would best describe the odds but there should at least be those odds. I could never beat up Tito Ortiz on a man to man basis but I bet if me and a few friends found him drunk and sleeping we could do a number on him.

    If not damage alot of the skills that an older player should be able to attain should be speed and agility so that there is a definate difference in the fighting style between some boot and a hardened killer.

    Lead with your face and role with the punches.

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