Originally posted by //\//\oo heh... I don't accept any of your premises as tautologous in any derived space of F, but then again physics might prove that things aren't done in real numbers, but in the powerset of reals, which would require an entirely new system of logic.......but in any case I have to say that premise 1, no matter how strong your assumptions are is false: There are entire programs devoted to creating games, and once the game classes have been written a mission or a quest could be done by a simple program (a mapping of a finite space into some matrix). People write stuff in C or GNU derivatives, so naturally it is object oriented. Need a new monster? Creating a new model may take a day, but then it is done, and this arduous process is completed. New and more powerful variants can be made in the dozens because of the class properties of C. There are already hundreds of thousands of premade models that programs add textures to, animations etc. The tough part would be the physics of the game, but since premade classes are used, who needs to worry about that, since the mechanics could be recycled with a new graphics engine? Ex. Blizzard with warcraft 1-3, starcraft etc. They recycled everything up to the graphics. And balancing.........look at each possibility (with some min max assumptions if you go into AO complexity character creation) and use game theory along with algebra to make sure that the total char development ensures continuous char development. The social aspect....... how ironic (whichever premise it was)....... if there were no rhyme or reason to it, and you assumed everything was done most economically, then why the hell does the consumer opt to play mmo ? The social aspect is crucial, in factr the rpgs that are still living today (RO at least considering how horrible the game itself is) survive solely on their fan basis. AO was a damn big hit without any mentionable PVP elements, as was RO etc.
You know the easiest way to see the truth of premise 1 is simply to play any mmorpg or single player game and that was why its there. However I can see reasons why your argument wouldn't mean that premise 1 false.
Yes I know all about object oriented programming languages... how long have games been made with them? Like since diablo 1 or something? The reason this doesn't allow programmers to make content faster than it is used is simple. If you are playing a mmorpg and you fight a "LEET" then you level up and then go against a "RED LEET" then "gold leet" then "Death LEET" etc etc etc and they all look the same you are going to be bored out of your mind. The less effort that is put into making PVE content the faster it is all going to become boring. Thats content stretching. It doesn't work.
In order for it to be interesting, every new piece of content has to contain an unused idea based on analysis of current culture, what people of the time might find cool, etc. If you are using a single idea to make a huge amount of content all that content is going to become boring at once. And a computer is not going to be able to asses what people will find interesting any time soon in order to randomly create content.
You mention AO and character development. First of all I assume you are saying change AO from what it is now (which has the same restrictions I mentioned above regarding ideas), because right now AO is about the worst example of content stretching that exists. Every class is rediculously similar, there is no change from level 1 to 200 except in the numbers. That game is boring as !!!. What do people spend most of their time doing in that game? Standing around chatting.
Which brings me to your next point. Socialization is irrelevant because it can be put into any game and if thats all your doing then you are not playing a mmorpg at all... This argument is about mmorpgs not virtual chatrooms. (which a good mmorpg can be just as well as a really really crappy one) The idea is to create a game so that people actually have fun playing the game AND socializing while doing it.
Originally posted by Maximane Wasn't this (according to the topic) going to be simplified? -------------------- Alex "Maximane" De Line - MMORPG.COM Staff -
That was referring to the orginal post which used to be much longer. Why do you ask?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
What I don't understand is how AO is stretching? At least when I was playing (1-2 years ago) the stats you invested in played a very important roll (the points you invested functioned almost as a skill tree since some nanos required more of a non int stat than others, and now that ao added the additional skill system they multiplied the possibilities by 2^n. What exactly is your criterion for not stretching, or rather how is it determined by the mmorpger?
There is probably some statistic that could reflect this accurately as humanity hasn't gone much farther than figuring out that if you cut out a piece of this part of the brain this and that function ceases: My point is that this cannot be formally argued without a formal statistic, and that any psychological assumptions are pretty much shots in the dark unless they are supported by very, very strong statistical evidence.
I am sorry if I was opaque in my last rant, but I meant to say that beyond the graphics engine etc. there is very little to do comparitively with the mechanics as objects are recycled or new classes are derived from old ones with new properties. So if you wanted to add an entirely new skill tree and so on it could be done with relative ease if it were programmed efficiently.
The only difficulty is updating all of the parameters; server down times etc. may occur because of the sheer numbers, (especially since it is of order N), but many companies program lazily, and use ultimately greedy algorithms that hamper functionality with expansion etc. So you could update things theoretically every few months or so to keep up to date to "culture" and such. Introducing a new model into a game environment (rather than your mentioned reusing of the same model) with different ai would be salt and peanuts if implemented correctly.
Eventually when the costs of hiring a programmer are close to nil (which is in not so a distant future) such dyanmic mmorpgs could be introduced. I lack the economic savvy along with the experience to say if it is currently possible, but your argument that fun cannot be produced at a rate so that the brain does not become bored is based on weak economic assumptions or do you run a game company ?
Socializing..... well since you do seem to have some psychological inclinations you argued that the game environment would in no way effect socialization while the guild activity in FFXI and AO, for example varies greatly.
IF you are forced to socialize to play the game then obviously a more social crowd will tend towards the game. For example in AO there were quite a few characters created that were soley intended for solo play, which is simply not feasible in FFXI.
And as for the argument that the degree of socializing does not effect consumption given that there is an adequate chat median: Why in the world did they introduce weddings, ceremonies, and even social environments in most mmorpgs? Then why not have shoddy global chat client? Some people actually need a game environment to socialize and vice versa (which I can attest to having been in numerous guilds). The game itself serves as impersonal social stiumli: Instead of engaging in small talk or text people in a party often aggro or offer items etc. Why make an RPG online if socialization didn't affect game playing time. It also helps to stretch game playing time to a sig. amount. There is no black and white to socializing.
//\//\00 (oVV
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Stretching is determined subconsiously by the mmorpger. They are working towards respect or a feeling of self worth. The ultimate (unrealistic) goal would be to have everyone who saw the person say "look theres so and so he did this and that and hes so cool"
New weapons, levels etc are a step towards that goal as much as they allow you to progress farther to it. If all a weapon or level or whatever does is change a few numbers and you are back to square one you will quickly realize you are really not going towards your goal. If a playing a new class simply changes the name of your attacks and the numbers for each level are practically the same its not really going to be percieved as a new challenge. If there is too much time between each level in which you are facing the same challenge over and over again then you will get bored. Especially when you see that at the end of this long path are 40 other people who got there first. Maybe you can go on the belief that you are going to do it really fast (powergamer) but soon you realize all it takes is patience and lack of a social life which you realize you are not going to be respected for. And there are plenty of people that have probably already done it just as fast as you could. You can go off of respect from NPC's but only so long as they are believable as peopel and react to each new accomplishment.
Nah its not a shot in the dark. Its just using logical thinking skills combined with what everyone has experienced. The statistics needed are in everyones brain. Its just looking at them in the right light that is the limiting factor in understanding.
The simple fact is every idea that is to be interesting to consumers has to be thoguht up by a programmer. If a programmer uses a trick to create a whole new character class without thinking up any new ideas for a player to experience then the new character class is going to be meaningless to the player. A new model created by a graphic designer might take an hour or two to design and then a couple minutes for the player to get over it. If there is 300 monsters with that same model then guess what; In that few minutes the player has become bored of all 300. Ideas designed for consumption will always be created slower than they are consumed.
My point about culture is that a computer cannot be programmed to determine what is "cool". It would need a head full of memories similar to what people have to work from and that would take a crapload of hard disk space like 400 billion gigs or something.
Socialization is a black and white issue. First of all it is a type of pvp that is modeled by my argument and a good indication that my argument is correct. When you socialize you are competeing for attention by telling jokes. You don't flip out when you don't get the attention. You gamble that people might think you are not funny. The parralells are telling a joke is like winning a pvp match. The difference is you don't get things when you are not socializing that you think "HAWR I GONNA TELL UBER JOKE WITH THIS" (unless you are wierd) so you cannot have fun thinking of socializing when you are not doing it. But you can always socialize so it doesn't matter. Whereas other types of pvp
If you were to make a game where the whole point was just to socialize then it would be a perfect example of the type of game I am trying to depict here. But talking about socialization as something on the side of other game you have to realize something. People can do one or the other. They can socialize, or they can play the game. If people are getting married whatever then they are not playing the game they are socializing. If you say "well that is the game as long as they are doing it" then it goes with the argument as a type of pvp. Everyone already knows that socializing is continually fun. This argument is how to make the game aspect of an online video game continuously fun.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Richard J. Cox "There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
Comments
You know the easiest way to see the truth of premise 1 is simply to play any mmorpg or single player game and that was why its there. However I can see reasons why your argument wouldn't mean that premise 1 false.
Yes I know all about object oriented programming languages... how long have games been made with them? Like since diablo 1 or something? The reason this doesn't allow programmers to make content faster than it is used is simple. If you are playing a mmorpg and you fight a "LEET" then you level up and then go against a "RED LEET" then "gold leet" then "Death LEET" etc etc etc and they all look the same you are going to be bored out of your mind. The less effort that is put into making PVE content the faster it is all going to become boring. Thats content stretching. It doesn't work.
In order for it to be interesting, every new piece of content has to contain an unused idea based on analysis of current culture, what people of the time might find cool, etc. If you are using a single idea to make a huge amount of content all that content is going to become boring at once. And a computer is not going to be able to asses what people will find interesting any time soon in order to randomly create content.
You mention AO and character development. First of all I assume you are saying change AO from what it is now (which has the same restrictions I mentioned above regarding ideas), because right now AO is about the worst example of content stretching that exists. Every class is rediculously similar, there is no change from level 1 to 200 except in the numbers. That game is boring as !!!. What do people spend most of their time doing in that game? Standing around chatting.
Which brings me to your next point. Socialization is irrelevant because it can be put into any game and if thats all your doing then you are not playing a mmorpg at all... This argument is about mmorpgs not virtual chatrooms. (which a good mmorpg can be just as well as a really really crappy one) The idea is to create a game so that people actually have fun playing the game AND socializing while doing it.
That was referring to the orginal post which used to be much longer. Why do you ask?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
What I don't understand is how AO is stretching? At least when I was playing (1-2 years ago) the stats you invested in played a very important roll (the points you invested functioned almost as a skill tree since some nanos required more of a non int stat than others, and now that ao added the additional skill system they multiplied the possibilities by 2^n. What exactly is your criterion for not stretching, or rather how is it determined by the mmorpger?
There is probably some statistic that could reflect this accurately as humanity hasn't gone much farther than figuring out that if you cut out a piece of this part of the brain this and that function ceases: My point is that this cannot be formally argued without a formal statistic, and that any psychological assumptions are pretty much shots in the dark unless they are supported by very, very strong statistical evidence.
I am sorry if I was opaque in my last rant, but I meant to say that beyond the graphics engine etc. there is very little to do comparitively with the mechanics as objects are recycled or new classes are derived from old ones with new properties. So if you wanted to add an entirely new skill tree and so on it could be done with relative ease if it were programmed efficiently.
The only difficulty is updating all of the parameters; server down times etc. may occur because of the sheer numbers, (especially since it is of order N), but many companies program lazily, and use ultimately greedy algorithms that hamper functionality with expansion etc. So you could update things theoretically every few months or so to keep up to date to "culture" and such. Introducing a new model into a game environment (rather than your mentioned reusing of the same model) with different ai would be salt and peanuts if implemented correctly.
Eventually when the costs of hiring a programmer are close to nil (which is in not so a distant future) such dyanmic mmorpgs could be introduced. I lack the economic savvy along with the experience to say if it is currently possible, but your argument that fun cannot be produced at a rate so that the brain does not become bored is based on weak economic assumptions or do you run a game company ?
Socializing..... well since you do seem to have some psychological inclinations you argued that the game environment would in no way effect socialization while the guild activity in FFXI and AO, for example varies greatly.
IF you are forced to socialize to play the game then obviously a more social crowd will tend towards the game. For example in AO there were quite a few characters created that were soley intended for solo play, which is simply not feasible in FFXI.
And as for the argument that the degree of socializing does not effect consumption given that there is an adequate chat median: Why in the world did they introduce weddings, ceremonies, and even social environments in most mmorpgs? Then why not have shoddy global chat client? Some people actually need a game environment to socialize and vice versa (which I can attest to having been in numerous guilds). The game itself serves as impersonal social stiumli: Instead of engaging in small talk or text people in a party often aggro or offer items etc. Why make an RPG online if socialization didn't affect game playing time. It also helps to stretch game playing time to a sig. amount. There is no black and white to socializing.
//\//\00 (oVV
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Stretching is determined subconsiously by the mmorpger. They are working towards respect or a feeling of self worth. The ultimate (unrealistic) goal would be to have everyone who saw the person say "look theres so and so he did this and that and hes so cool"
New weapons, levels etc are a step towards that goal as much as they allow you to progress farther to it. If all a weapon or level or whatever does is change a few numbers and you are back to square one you will quickly realize you are really not going towards your goal. If a playing a new class simply changes the name of your attacks and the numbers for each level are practically the same its not really going to be percieved as a new challenge. If there is too much time between each level in which you are facing the same challenge over and over again then you will get bored. Especially when you see that at the end of this long path are 40 other people who got there first. Maybe you can go on the belief that you are going to do it really fast (powergamer) but soon you realize all it takes is patience and lack of a social life which you realize you are not going to be respected for. And there are plenty of people that have probably already done it just as fast as you could. You can go off of respect from NPC's but only so long as they are believable as peopel and react to each new accomplishment.
Nah its not a shot in the dark. Its just using logical thinking skills combined with what everyone has experienced. The statistics needed are in everyones brain. Its just looking at them in the right light that is the limiting factor in understanding.
The simple fact is every idea that is to be interesting to consumers has to be thoguht up by a programmer. If a programmer uses a trick to create a whole new character class without thinking up any new ideas for a player to experience then the new character class is going to be meaningless to the player. A new model created by a graphic designer might take an hour or two to design and then a couple minutes for the player to get over it. If there is 300 monsters with that same model then guess what; In that few minutes the player has become bored of all 300. Ideas designed for consumption will always be created slower than they are consumed.
My point about culture is that a computer cannot be programmed to determine what is "cool". It would need a head full of memories similar to what people have to work from and that would take a crapload of hard disk space like 400 billion gigs or something.
Socialization is a black and white issue. First of all it is a type of pvp that is modeled by my argument and a good indication that my argument is correct. When you socialize you are competeing for attention by telling jokes. You don't flip out when you don't get the attention. You gamble that people might think you are not funny. The parralells are telling a joke is like winning a pvp match. The difference is you don't get things when you are not socializing that you think "HAWR I GONNA TELL UBER JOKE WITH THIS" (unless you are wierd) so you cannot have fun thinking of socializing when you are not doing it. But you can always socialize so it doesn't matter. Whereas other types of pvp
If you were to make a game where the whole point was just to socialize then it would be a perfect example of the type of game I am trying to depict here. But talking about socialization as something on the side of other game you have to realize something. People can do one or the other. They can socialize, or they can play the game. If people are getting married whatever then they are not playing the game they are socializing. If you say "well that is the game as long as they are doing it" then it goes with the argument as a type of pvp. Everyone already knows that socializing is continually fun. This argument is how to make the game aspect of an online video game continuously fun.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------PROBABILITY(YOUR STATEMENTS BEING MOTIVATED BY FEAR(I>U)) > .5
Muahahahahahahaha
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
Thats my fault, sorry.
Richard J. Cox
"There were much of the beautiful, much of the wanton, much of the bizarre, something of the terrible, and not a little of that which might have excited disgust."
You haven't been fired yet for this transgression....
Wowzers, Page 34 and it is still ticking away!
You see that is why at recognized debates there is a time limit.
--------------------
Alex "Maximane" De Line
- MMORPG.COM Staff -