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WoW sinking in the site ratings

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  • BladinBladin Member UncommonPosts: 1,089
    and btw ive never paid money for AO and when it was free, i never played it.  A long time ago i did a trial of it and it lagged soooo bad, i rubber banded a million miles every second, and the gameplay was only okay, it was just miserable.  Coulda been a bad time in its history.  But i really don't care.

    If you look at the reviews of the harry potter movies, you can see they are regarded as decent movies. like i said.. its all personal taste.


    image

  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457

     I've found Vivendi's Annual report here

    http://finance.vivendiuniversal.com/finance/download/pdf/annualreport2005.pdf

    There are no financial details about Warcraft given in it. No numbers of box sales, no WoW specific sales or revenue figures at all.

    Blizzard is a private company, so it doesn't have one. I think whoever gave you your retention figures, was just guessing same as the rest of us.

    This one does give a rather intresting break down of subscribers by geography.

    http://finance.vivendiuniversal.com/finance/download/pdf/FY05Earnings.pdf as a bar chart. (page 46)

    China seems to be the biggest market by over double, followed by North America and then Europe and then some Taiwan and Korea. 

  • ssstupidossstupido Member Posts: 253


    Originally posted by Bladin

    If you look at the reviews of the harry potter movies, you can see they are regarded as decent movies. like i said.. its all personal taste.



    yeah, decent movies, just like WoW is decent. but nobody on their right minds is going to say harry potter movies are on the best 10 movies of the last 15 years. neither Phantom Menace or Shrek.

    i agree with apertotes here. sales alone dont say anything. about reviews... yes, those are much more worthy than sales. and wow is very high rated almost everywhere. which doesnt happen with bad movies or books. so that is a point to WoW.

    still, i trust more on user ratings and averages than publications ratings. i have seen far too many bad games get great reviews, and that made me think that probably reviewers are not as free to set punctuations as they should.

    so, i trust more on user reviews than publications. and between all the sites that have user reviews, the one i trust more regarding MMORPGs is this site. and WoW has an 8.1, and it has come down all the way from 8.9. so it might stil fall down a little more. is 8.1 a bad score? no. it is a very good one. it is just below 7 or 8 games which on the opinion of this site users (which i trust more than any other when it comes to MMOs) WoW is not better than those games.

    i care zero about sales or magazine reviews. they mean nothing when taking about quality.

  • MinscMinsc Member UncommonPosts: 1,333


    Originally posted by baff


    Originally posted by Minsc


    A CS server sends far more information back and forth than a WoW server period, a 100-tick CS server for instance is sending 100 updates a second per player back to the server, which in turn then has to update every other player on the server with that info. Compare this to a WoW server where there may be 100 updates a minute or less. Why else do you think they haven't done a true MMOFPS yet? It's because everyone who wants to connect would need a fibre connection to be able to handle the data transmission.





    No it doesn't. A CS server sends very little info. It sends the change in any vector state of the players in the AOI. And it sends the player state. It also sends changes in the worldstate. Bullet holes or bullet vectors.

    In other words it sends the 3D location and direction the player is facing, if it has changed, and also what that player looks like, crouched/erect and weapon type firing or not firing. A CS map is optimised so that there are a minimum of players in the AOI at the same time. The chances of all 16 players on a 16 player server being in eachother AOI at the sametime is almost non existent.

    A Wow server sends all this same data, but it also sends a lot more player state data. As players are all customised in numerous ways. further to this it sends AI positions too.

    The real key difference is the AOI and number of players in the server. In CS if 3players can all see each other, each player must be sent the 2 data sets for for each of the other players each tick. A total of 9 data sets are sent each tick. If 8 players can see eachother a total of 64 data sets are sent each tick. The bandwidth increases exponentially.

    So in Ogrimmar if 100 players can see eachother, 10,000 dataset (each one larger than a CS packet) are sent. The bandwidth used for Ogrimmar alone is 150 times as much as a CS server.

    Tickrate is the number of times those packets/datasets are sent per second. a neat trick to reduce bandwidth usuage at the expense of CPU load is to increase the tickrate. A higher tickrate actually results in lower bandwidth usuage.

    And this is why.....

    Each tick, the game does not send every dataset for every player. It only sends the ones that have changed from the last time. It sends updates, not the entire gamestate each tick. The more frequently the server sends these data sets,  the less likely the players are to have moved. The smaller the number of datasets transmitted.

    Using our previous sample figures, 64 data sets sent 10 (or even 100) times as often as 10,000 data sets sent once, is a seriously lot less bandwidth. Obviously all my figures are invented (as usual), but they demonstrate the theory.



    Planetside is an MMOFPS,  it uses vastly more bandwidth than a CS server and a vastly more powerful computer. Sacrifices to processing power are noticeably made by reducing the number of hit boxes found in CS. Planetside is also poorly optimised, it does not use prediction so warping/packetloss although no more frequent, is much more apparent to the naked eye.



    EACH player slot on a CS server sends and recieves 20 MB of data per hour, or around 14 GB per month. In comparison each WoW player sends and receives about 2MB of data per hour or 1.4 GB per month. FPS games are sending far more data back and forth than an mmo is. AOI does not apply in FPS games, the maps are much smaller and the player density much higher. Also in an FPS you are sending more data back and forth between the client and server. You have X,Y,Z co-ords, facing, LOS and other data updated many times a second, there is very little prediction done by the server. MMO's merely have X,Y,Z co-ords, facing and things like whether you are attacking or using special abilities. Data is only sent back and forth when something changes, the rest is done through prediction on the server. There is much less data being sent and recieved as a result. Planetside is also included in this model, it uses prediction heavily, as does auto-assault and DDO, which is why when you hit someone in these games you just have to be "close enough".

    CS is actually very efficient in bandwidth usage, games like BF2 use upwards of 80MB/hour in bandwidth.

    Next time you want to argue a point, it's best not to pull facts out of your ass m'kay.
  • Pride7Pride7 Member Posts: 289


    Originally posted by Elnator

    Originally posted by Gameloading

    Originally posted by Pride7

    Originally posted by apertotes

    what wow fanboys have yet to explain is the line between "most popular", "most played" and "most sold" game and "highest quality game", which is what rankings are about.


    So in your opinion proof is in reviews/ratings?  Ok fair enough...

    According to GameRankings.com in the category Massively Multiplayer Online PC Games the #1 title is <<< drum roll, please ... >>>

    #1 World of Warcraft Average Vote = 8.5 Average Score = 91.5%

    #1 in unit sales, #1 in subscriptions, and #1 in reviews - ooks like WOW is the Filet Mignon of MMOs!


    Quoted for the damn truth!


    If it's fillet Mignon of MMO's I'm becoming a vegetarian.  Seriously.... Being the most popular doesn't make it the "best".  Blech.... Fillet Mignon my arse.

    As stated many many many many times.  "BEST" is subjective.  All 'ratings' are is a popularity contest.  It has very little to do with actual 'quality'.  Other than as an anecdotal indicator.  The fact that WoW is so popular indicates that it's a good MMO (and it is).  But it's not the "BEST" MMO... not in my opinion anyway.  I think EQ2, EVE and DAOC are all "Better" MMORPG's though not as popular.



    Ratings are subjective but far from a popularity contest (Eve is 4th overall and is far from popular), but when you combine #1 in reviews, #1 in sales, and #1 in subscriptions the data is overwhelming.
  • Pride7Pride7 Member Posts: 289


    Originally posted by baff

     I've found Vivendi's Annual report here
    http://finance.vivendiuniversal.com/finance/download/pdf/annualreport2005.pdf
    There are no financial details about Warcraft given in it. No numbers of box sales, no WoW specific sales or revenue figures at all.
    Blizzard is a private company, so it doesn't have one. I think whoever gave you your retention figures, was just guessing same as the rest of us.


    This one does give a rather intresting break down of subscribers by geography.
    http://finance.vivendiuniversal.com/finance/download/pdf/FY05Earnings.pdf as a bar chart. (page 46)
    China seems to be the biggest market by over double, followed by North America and then Europe and then some Taiwan and Korea. 


    That is completely untrue - read the annual report on page 143 it gives a break down of Vivendi Games.  In the revenue details under that is states how WOW has 5.5M subs, also before that on page 20 where it breaks down highlights for each month look in the month of September (it states 4M subs) and on page 21 it states WOW as having 5.5M subs.
  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457

    I saw references to the subscription numbers in the report, but not to any box sales or any revenues. This report doesn't tell us how many boxes have been sold. It doesnt tell us how much money WoW is pulling in, nor it's profits nor it's overheads.

    Elnator has given me someones retention figures based on box sales/current subs, and cited the annual report as the source for those figures. It isn't.

    Box sales are not mentioned in the annual report. The retention figures of "2 months" are not coming from evidence provided in the annual reports. This is false.

    Subscription figures, I am still in complete agreement with, I have every faith in their validity. 

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by baff

    I saw references to the subscription numbers in the report, but not to any box sales or any revenues. This report doesn't tell us how many boxes have been sold. It doesnt tell us how much money WoW is pulling in, nor it's profits nor it's overheads.

    Elnator has given me someones retention figures based on box sales/current subs, and cited the annual report as the source for those figures. It isn't.

    Box sales are not mentioned in the annual report. The retention figures of "2 months" are not coming from evidence provided in the annual reports. 

    Subscription figures, I am still in complete agreement with, I have faith in their validity. 


    Actually I said industry analysts get numbers from those sources.  I knew the subscriber numbers were there.  I made the mistake of assuming that they got the box sales numbers from there.  However, for analysts it's not that hard to get the box sales numbers.  The 2 month figure I saw was from an analysis I saw online regarding retention between the top rated MMO's on the market.  Most MMO's average right around 2 months.  The article/blog I read was pointing out the astonishing fact that some games (EVE among them) have much higher retention rates for one reason or another.

    If I could remember where I read it I'd give you the link.  It was an interesting read.  I remember the EVE figure distinctly because it had like 9 months to 12 months as it's average retention... which was amazing... But it explains a lot about why the community is so hard-core about defending/promoting the game.  They are truely long-time players.

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • Pride7Pride7 Member Posts: 289


    Originally posted by Elnator

    Originally posted by baff



    I saw references to the subscription numbers in the report, but not to any box sales or any revenues. This report doesn't tell us how many boxes have been sold. It doesnt tell us how much money WoW is pulling in, nor it's profits nor it's overheads.
    Elnator has given me someones retention figures based on box sales/current subs, and cited the annual report as the source for those figures. It isn't.
    Box sales are not mentioned in the annual report. The retention figures of "2 months" are not coming from evidence provided in the annual reports. 
    Subscription figures, I am still in complete agreement with, I have faith in their validity. 


    Actually I said industry analysts get numbers from those sources.  I knew the subscriber numbers were there.  I made the mistake of assuming that they got the box sales numbers from there.  However, for analysts it's not that hard to get the box sales numbers.  The 2 month figure I saw was from an analysis I saw online regarding retention between the top rated MMO's on the market.  Most MMO's average right around 2 months.  The article/blog I read was pointing out the astonishing fact that some games (EVE among them) have much higher retention rates for one reason or another.

    If I could remember where I read it I'd give you the link.  It was an interesting read.  I remember the EVE figure distinctly because it had like 9 months to 12 months as it's average retention... which was amazing... But it explains a lot about why the community is so hard-core about defending/promoting the game.  They are truely long-time players.


    Then for this discussion let's try to steer clear from the 2 month data point unless we can at least get some kind of supporting information.
  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by Pride7

    Originally posted by Elnator

    Originally posted by baff



    I saw references to the subscription numbers in the report, but not to any box sales or any revenues. This report doesn't tell us how many boxes have been sold. It doesnt tell us how much money WoW is pulling in, nor it's profits nor it's overheads.
    Elnator has given me someones retention figures based on box sales/current subs, and cited the annual report as the source for those figures. It isn't.
    Box sales are not mentioned in the annual report. The retention figures of "2 months" are not coming from evidence provided in the annual reports. 
    Subscription figures, I am still in complete agreement with, I have faith in their validity. 




    Actually I said industry analysts get numbers from those sources.  I knew the subscriber numbers were there.  I made the mistake of assuming that they got the box sales numbers from there.  However, for analysts it's not that hard to get the box sales numbers.  The 2 month figure I saw was from an analysis I saw online regarding retention between the top rated MMO's on the market.  Most MMO's average right around 2 months.  The article/blog I read was pointing out the astonishing fact that some games (EVE among them) have much higher retention rates for one reason or another.

    If I could remember where I read it I'd give you the link.  It was an interesting read.  I remember the EVE figure distinctly because it had like 9 months to 12 months as it's average retention... which was amazing... But it explains a lot about why the community is so hard-core about defending/promoting the game.  They are truely long-time players.


    Then for this discussion let's try to steer clear from the 2 month data point unless we can at least get some kind of supporting information.



    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7832
    This lists the retail price for wow.

    http://www.npdfunworld.com/funServlet?nextpage=track_sales.html
    (you need to pay to view the data here, this is where industry analysts get the total number of units sold.  I'm not going to pay to pull a report so if you reaaaaaaly want one go dig it up yourself)

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457


    Originally posted by Minsc


    EACH player slot on a CS server sends and recieves 20 MB of data per hour, or around 14 GB per month. In comparison each WoW player sends and receives about 2MB of data per hour or 1.4 GB per month. FPS games are sending far more data back and forth than an mmo is. AOI does not apply in FPS games, the maps are much smaller and the player density much higher. Also in an FPS you are sending more data back and forth between the client and server. You have X,Y,Z co-ords, facing, LOS and other data updated many times a second, there is very little prediction done by the server. MMO's merely have X,Y,Z co-ords, facing and things like whether you are attacking or using special abilities. Data is only sent back and forth when something changes, the rest is done through prediction on the server. There is much less data being sent and recieved as a result. Planetside is also included in this model, it uses prediction heavily, as does auto-assault and DDO, which is why when you hit someone in these games you just have to be "close enough".

    CS is actually very efficient in bandwidth usage, games like BF2 use upwards of 80MB/hour in bandwidth.

    Next time you want to argue a point, it's best not to pull facts out of your ass m'kay.


    "Facts" like the ones I've highlighted above perhaps?

    At any moment in Ogrimmar a Wow server is using more bandwidth than any CS server. 2MB/h to the power of everyplayer in view in OG is greater than 20 MB/h to the power of every player visible in CS.

    Lets add up the bandwidth. 2MB/h x 3500 players = 7,000MB/h for WoW and 20MB/h x 16 players = 320 MB/h on a CS server. Which one do you think costs more to run?

    AOI applies in all FPs games. It's why games with big wide open maps like Planetside, Operation Flashpoint and Ghost Recon and BF2 all use significantly higher bandwidth than CS and Unreal based games. CS/maps are small,but the line of sight is deliberately very limited to reduce lag.

    Prediction is done by the client. The server doesn't have to predict, it knows.

  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457


    Originally posted by Elnator

    Actually I said industry analysts get numbers from those sources.  I knew the subscriber numbers were there.  I made the mistake of assuming that they got the box sales numbers from there.  However, for analysts it's not that hard to get the box sales numbers.  The 2 month figure I saw was from an analysis I saw online regarding retention between the top rated MMO's on the market.  Most MMO's average right around 2 months.  The article/blog I read was pointing out the astonishing fact that some games (EVE among them) have much higher retention rates for one reason or another.

    If I could remember where I read it I'd give you the link.  It was an interesting read.  I remember the EVE figure distinctly because it had like 9 months to 12 months as it's average retention... which was amazing... But it explains a lot about why the community is so hard-core about defending/promoting the game.  They are truely long-time players.


    Yeah people like NPD, Esa or Elspa over here compile sales figures based on the weekly sales of big stores. They should give you a pretty reasonable idea of what has been sold. But that kind of market research isn't free. Given how inaccurate my own figures are, I'm not buying nto anyone elses without corroboration either.

    I'm also not buying it that Eve averages 9-12 months but WoW only 2. I know Eve is a massive time sink, but for the average you describe in Wow to be true, most people must not being playing past the initial month.
    If this was a trend most people would be abandoning Eve within the 14 day trial. Or quicker, since there is no financial obligation to play it through since yoiu have already paid for it like there is in WoW.

    Sorry but I really don't buy into this without supporting evidence.

  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449
    the part i find really funny here is -- why do YOU care?  you being the reader...

    like a few posters in this one thread, i play games with a group of people i mainly know from real life.  we also play with people we only know from the online world.  but, the core 15-20 people i play games/sports/go clubbing with are from real life.

    now, with us being in our 20s and 30s, every one of us that has played any sort of RPG type game before, have been very bored with wow for an incredibly long time.  not to mention the ones of us that take offense to basement dwellers, don't want to play with little kids, and that really hate it when devs are uncreative liars.

    so that's great that the game has millions of people playing it.

    why is it slipping in the ratings here?

    are we the asian market?  anyone play diablo 2 much? or ever did?  remember "gogogo"?  weren't those the korean players that just wanted to go faster and faster to be done with everything?  whether they were working for someone or just speed freaks, who knows, who cares -- didn't enjoy it.

    are we the little kid market?  blizznet was fairly fun at one time.  until the little kids got on and just did what little kids do.

    so yeah, it's going to do well, and it MIGHT keep these supposed ADD-troubled kids/teens for a bit.  but how many people that are actually any sort of gamer stay around for the candy coated dummied down games?  wow being a perfect example of this.

    if you're a gamer, then you should remember things like ooo the slave lords, the different giant fortresses one after another, the descent into the depths of the world to be followed by craziness in the abyss and the rest of the multiverse.  that's a gamer.  if you have a different definition. fine, go with it.  i can call tater tots something else, like french fries, all day long -- doesn't mean they're mystically french fries.


    the sales of the game are there, they've sold millions of boxes.  no one is contesting that.  why is it slipping in popularity?  oh wait, it's not... you're right, there's still millions of kids and the asian market who haven't tried it yet and who will continue to boost sales and even subs for a few months (if not year+).

    i would hope that if you enjoy playing with those demographics, that you have a blast.  i for one, don't need more "gogogo" or people that say pwned, because owned became typoed so much by morons that pwned became the new owned, when in that vicious little circle -- most of the geniuses *owning* were shortly owned repeatedly immediately following their typofest.


    so again, i ask you, the reader -- what do YOU care about if a game is going down in their ratings?

    are you some emo/fanboi/retard that just wants to argue about "imma show you big numbas and prove that this game is the bestest cuz of the numbers~!!!11111oneonetwenty`!@!~21`21" ?

    several people posting in this thread would have to say yes to that.

    why?

    because, myself, my real life friends and associates and people we've gamed with online for a number of years -- none of us have any desire to play a dummied down game full of 10 year olds, heck, full of teens even, much less that "gogogo" crowd.

     if you're caring about it, because YOU play the game and you think it's wonderful, great, maybe it's the game FOR you -- but don't tell an actual gamer that a game where you can't pick points to put into any stat, where you mindlessly farm the same dungeons a bazillion times (which are always exactly the same map and mobs), where craftable items are a joke compared to drops, where you never have any chance to actually lose anything, where dying has no penalties at all ever (shut up if you say "precious time going back to your body" or "after a bunch of deaths i have to spend 5 bucks to repair my stuff" - saying that proves you have no clue what i'm talking about), where nothing you do ever changes anything in the server and every server is exactly the same as all the other servers, where you can't even have housing -- don't tell a real gamer THAT game is worth a damn or has any depth or challenge to it at all.

    star wars episode 1, shrek 2, harry potter, britney spears, jessica simpson, american idols, backstreet boys, fast food -- all of these sell bazillions of times over and again.  it proves that marketing appeals to the masses.  it proves that pre teens and teens are drawn to whatever they're told is "cool".  it proves nothing if someone in their 20s or 30s is looking for entertainment.

    are you people, the ones talking about how great wow is -- are you a preteen or teen?  do you have actual friends (offline, not ones you met online, but people you knew offline BEFORE you knew them online) that YOU game with? 

    that's what this site's ratings are about.

    if i want to find out what popular garbage is out there, what the latest trend in stupidity is -- i have what? about 200 channels of TV i can check out, magazines, whatever form of media - it's not hard to find what garbage is in the latest popular trend.  sort of like all those diets people get on.  here's a diet that works -- it's called put the cookies down, get off your fat ass and exercise every day.  go run, do some aerobics, play a sport, whatever.  you do that, and your body is going to sweat, then crave water, then crave nourishment.  drinking all those sody pops won't do it for you, you're going to want something else.  those cookies won't be doing it for you, your body is going to say *NOURISH ME NOW*.  but that requires effort, thought, diligence.  people, it seems, are too lazy for this, so instead "hey, what's the latest diet trend".  go lemmings go.

    read different reviews.  it's not hard to see which are written by idiots or ones with childish mentalities.  some *kids* will surprise you however and have a much more mature approach to games and their gameplay.  just like a bunch of basement dwelling no-life-having, jobless yahoos will amaze you with the depths of their utter stupidity "imma raid for 50 hours until i get all this stuff mang".  there ARE exceptions to every rule.  but, those are EXCEPTIONS.

    stereotypes exist for a reason -- most of the people covered by the stereotype seem to actually do/be what the stereotype says.

     if you want harry potter, jessica simpson, atkin's diet, bell bottoms, penny loafers, what was that jacket in the 80s that everyone had?  club or something?    if you want whatever the popular trend is -- go for it.  that's all your numbers prove.

    this site helps you weed thru that, and you get reviews from people that, i hope, have played the different games themselves.

    people put emotion into things they're passionate about.  i hate it when other individuals slam people for having emotion.  to them i say -- go to hell.  if i want no passion, no feeling, no nothing, i'll call some assclown running mci/worldcom or some other corporation.  if YOU are unable to read the words someone types because they are passionate about someone else, hmmm, are you some mindless corporate drone?  are you too stupid to actually read the words?  are you too weak willed to see anything other than "zomgwtfbbq he said a naughty word" and that's all you got out of the entire post?  play wow then.  don't play any other game ever, wow is your game, it's full of you.

    if you couldn't follow where i was going with this - sorry.  not in an apologetic way, cuz i doubt i actually CARE that you couldn't follow.  just sorry for you.

    think outside the tiny box in which you desire to contain the world.  it's not about you, it's not about you trying to be uber by proving something with numbers.  numbers can't tell me what's fun for me and my friends.  numbers can tell me what's popular.  demographics can tell me with whom it's popular.  combine the TWO, and then you can have a guess at if it is something you'd enjoy.

    do i want to play a game infested with little kids, teens, and the "gogogo" crowd?  not a chance in hell.

    that's all your numbers prove.

     now, for MY demographic, my statements about this joke of a game are true -- it's pretty, it's easy, it's boring as hell.  so as far as me, the people i ENJOY gaming with, and the people i actually know - well, this craptastic game can rot in hell along with kaplan and his "all i can do is raid and steal ideas from other people because, well, that's me~!!"


    so again, are you arguing because you're one of those passive-aggressive control freak geeks (and i mean geek in the worst derogatory fashion you can conceive, not in any good way), that gets his/her jollies from being right?  the majority of arguments i've seen that support wow are flawed in a critical fashion from the start -- they make the assumption that i (i being the reader) want to play online with EVERYONE in the world.  that's as asinine an assumption as saying i want to play basketball with everyone in the world.  or, i want to have everyone in the world (not all at once) over to the house for an all day/evening bbq type party.

    if that's you that could care less about whom you play with; then, go with the most popular game -- you'll love it.

    but again, that's not what this site and it's ratings/reviews are for, nor about.


    amen





    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by baff

    Originally posted by Elnator

    Actually I said industry analysts get numbers from those sources.  I knew the subscriber numbers were there.  I made the mistake of assuming that they got the box sales numbers from there.  However, for analysts it's not that hard to get the box sales numbers.  The 2 month figure I saw was from an analysis I saw online regarding retention between the top rated MMO's on the market.  Most MMO's average right around 2 months.  The article/blog I read was pointing out the astonishing fact that some games (EVE among them) have much higher retention rates for one reason or another.

    If I could remember where I read it I'd give you the link.  It was an interesting read.  I remember the EVE figure distinctly because it had like 9 months to 12 months as it's average retention... which was amazing... But it explains a lot about why the community is so hard-core about defending/promoting the game.  They are truely long-time players.


    Yeah people like NPD, Esa or Elspa over here compile sales figures based on the weekly sales of big stores. They should give you a pretty reasonable idea of what has been sold. But that kind of market research isn't free. Given how inaccurate my own figures are, I'm not buying nto anyone elses without corroboration either.

    I'm also not buying it that Eve averages 9-12 months but WoW only 2. I know Eve is a massive time sink, but for the average you describe in Wow to be true, most people must not being playing past the initial month.
    If this was a trend most people would be abandoning Eve within the 14 day trial. Or quicker, since there is no financial obligation to play it through since yoiu have already paid for it like there is in WoW.

    Sorry but I really don't buy into this without supporting evidence.


    True but trials wouldn't count into the average retention since they never purchased the game.  Different dynamic.  Last year WoW didn't have a free trial until very late (October I believe).  So people either bought the game to try it or begged someone to let them use their account.  Since EVE is sold via the net, not in stores, anyone who buys the game would have been much more likely to have played the free trial (14 days) first.  After 14 days with EVE you KNOW if you don't like it already.  So I Could see why people who bought the game after a 14 day trial would be more likely to stick with a game than people who bought a game pretty much site unseen not playing past the first 30 days.

    But, like I said, the data is out there.  If you want corroboration, go get it.  I'm not paying for a report for you :)

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by damian7
    the part i find really funny here is -- why do YOU care?  you being the reader...






    Because it's a fun topic to discuss for those of us who are number crunchers :)  Personally I've enjoyed my discussion with Baff far more than any of the crazy "this game is better/no this game is better" discussions that are the norm on this board.

    We're at least TRYING to discuss factual data :)

    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457

    Forums are a nice place to pass the time, arguing is a good method to develop your own opinions and learn from the opinions of others.

     Insights into an industry never hurt. Learning about how markets operate may have a practical application if you are an investor. Imagine having to work for a living.

    @ Elnator, likewise matey.

    MMO subs is always a big favorite topic of mine.

  • LOL Baff
  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457


    Originally posted by Elnator
    True but trials wouldn't count into the average retention since they never purchased the game.  Different dynamic.  Last year WoW didn't have a free trial until very late (October I believe).  So people either bought the game to try it or begged someone to let them use their account.  Since EVE is sold via the net, not in stores, anyone who buys the game would have been much more likely to have played the free trial (14 days) first.  After 14 days with EVE you KNOW if you don't like it already.  So I Could see why people who bought the game after a 14 day trial would be more likely to stick with a game than people who bought a game pretty much site unseen not playing past the first 30 days.

    But, like I said, the data is out there.  If you want corroboration, go get it.  I'm not paying for a report for you :)


    That makes sense.

    As far as I'm concerned at £6,000 a year for ELSPA membership, the data is not out there.

    It might be out there, but I would have to gamble £6,000 on you to check. You would have to be a lot better looking and dress up.


  • ElnatorElnator Member Posts: 6,077


    Originally posted by baff

    Originally posted by Elnator
    True but trials wouldn't count into the average retention since they never purchased the game.  Different dynamic.  Last year WoW didn't have a free trial until very late (October I believe).  So people either bought the game to try it or begged someone to let them use their account.  Since EVE is sold via the net, not in stores, anyone who buys the game would have been much more likely to have played the free trial (14 days) first.  After 14 days with EVE you KNOW if you don't like it already.  So I Could see why people who bought the game after a 14 day trial would be more likely to stick with a game than people who bought a game pretty much site unseen not playing past the first 30 days.

    But, like I said, the data is out there.  If you want corroboration, go get it.  I'm not paying for a report for you :)

    That makes sense.


    As far as I'm concerned at £6,000 a year for ELSPA membership, the data is not out there.

    It might be out there, but I would have to gamble £6,000 on you to check. You would have to be a lot better looking and dress up.




    Awwwe... c'mon Baff!!!  I'm not feeling the love now!


    Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
    Sig image Pending
    Still in: A couple Betas

  • Pride7Pride7 Member Posts: 289


    Originally posted by Elnator

    Originally posted by Pride7

    Originally posted by Elnator

    Originally posted by baff



    I saw references to the subscription numbers in the report, but not to any box sales or any revenues. This report doesn't tell us how many boxes have been sold. It doesnt tell us how much money WoW is pulling in, nor it's profits nor it's overheads.
    Elnator has given me someones retention figures based on box sales/current subs, and cited the annual report as the source for those figures. It isn't.
    Box sales are not mentioned in the annual report. The retention figures of "2 months" are not coming from evidence provided in the annual reports. 
    Subscription figures, I am still in complete agreement with, I have faith in their validity. 




    Actually I said industry analysts get numbers from those sources.  I knew the subscriber numbers were there.  I made the mistake of assuming that they got the box sales numbers from there.  However, for analysts it's not that hard to get the box sales numbers.  The 2 month figure I saw was from an analysis I saw online regarding retention between the top rated MMO's on the market.  Most MMO's average right around 2 months.  The article/blog I read was pointing out the astonishing fact that some games (EVE among them) have much higher retention rates for one reason or another.

    If I could remember where I read it I'd give you the link.  It was an interesting read.  I remember the EVE figure distinctly because it had like 9 months to 12 months as it's average retention... which was amazing... But it explains a lot about why the community is so hard-core about defending/promoting the game.  They are truely long-time players.

    Then for this discussion let's try to steer clear from the 2 month data point unless we can at least get some kind of supporting information.


    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7832
    This lists the retail price for wow.

    http://www.npdfunworld.com/funServlet?nextpage=track_sales.html
    (you need to pay to view the data here, this is where industry analysts get the total number of units sold.  I'm not going to pay to pull a report so if you reaaaaaaly want one go dig it up yourself)



    Actually I said industry analysts get numbers from those sources.  I knew the subscriber numbers were there.  I made the mistake of assuming that they got the box sales numbers from there.  However, for analysts it's not that hard to get the box sales numbers.  The 2 month figure I saw was from an analysis I saw online regarding retention between the top rated MMO's on the market.  Most MMO's average right around 2 months.  The article/blog I read was pointing out the astonishing fact that some games (EVE among them) have much higher retention rates for one reason or another.

    If I could remember where I read it I'd give you the link.  It was an interesting read.  I remember the EVE figure distinctly because it had like 9 months to 12 months as it's average retention... which was amazing... But it explains a lot about why the community is so hard-core about defending/promoting the game.  They are truely long-time players.


    Then for this discussion let's try to steer clear from the 2 month data point unless we can at least get some kind of supporting information.



    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7832
    This lists the retail price for wow.

    http://www.npdfunworld.com/funServlet?nextpage=track_sales.html
    (you need to pay to view the data here, this is where industry analysts get the total number of units sold.  I'm not going to pay to pull a report so if you reaaaaaaly want one go dig it up yourself)



    The only problem with NPD is that Wal-Mart stopped reporting sales to NPD so the numbers for Wal Mart are a guess.
    Then for this discussion let's try to steer clear from the 2 month data point unless we can at least get some kind of supporting information.



    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7832
    This lists the retail price for wow.

    http://www.npdfunworld.com/funServlet?nextpage=track_sales.html
    (you need to pay to view the data here, this is where industry analysts get the total number of units sold.  I'm not going to pay to pull a report so if you reaaaaaaly want one go dig it up yourself)



    The only problem with NPD is that Wal-Mart stopped reporting sales to NPD so the numbers for Wal Mart are a guess.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7832
    This lists the retail price for wow.

    http://www.npdfunworld.com/funServlet?nextpage=track_sales.html
    (you need to pay to view the data here, this is where industry analysts get the total number of units sold.  I'm not going to pay to pull a report so if you reaaaaaaly want one go dig it up yourself)



    The only problem with NPD is that Wal-Mart stopped reporting sales to NPD so the numbers for Wal Mart are a guess.
    The only problem with NPD is that Wal-Mart stopped reporting sales to NPD so the numbers for Wal Mart are a guess.
  • Pride7Pride7 Member Posts: 289


    Originally posted by damian7
    the part i find really funny here is -- why do YOU care?  you being the reader...

    blah, blah, blah...




    Without even bothering to read what I am sure was nothing more than a long-winded factless post I would wager he said something similiar to "no matter if it is #1 in sales, #1 in subscriptions (in North America & World Wide), #1 in ratings/reviews the game still sucks cause I say so and anyone who plays it isn't a real gamer".  While he does get points for entertainment value he gets major deductions for not being able to support any of his factless theories.
  • damian7damian7 Member Posts: 4,449


    Originally posted by Pride7

    Originally posted by damian7
    the part i find really funny here is -- why do YOU care?  you being the reader...

    blah, blah, blah...



    Without even bothering to read what I am sure was nothing more than a long-winded factless post I would wager he said something similiar to "no matter if it is #1 in sales, #1 in subscriptions (in North America & World Wide), #1 in ratings/reviews the game still sucks cause I say so and anyone who plays it isn't a real gamer".  While he does get points for entertainment value he gets major deductions for not being able to support any of his factless theories.

    swykyfi

    could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?

  • ZythylZythyl Member Posts: 86
    I think it is about time that people identify WoW as an ultimate n00b fest. Face it - the game is designed for those virgins of the MMORPG industry, and, it was designed BY the virgins of the MMORPG industry. Go figure.

    Let WoW die. It's dying, don't save it, it would be a waste of your time.

    ------------------------------

    What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
    Game On!

    image

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,942
    Tell me I am not the first person in this thread to point out that WoW still enjoys a high rating, it's just that the name starts with "W". As between games with the same numerical rating they list them in alphabetical order. Mmorpg.com has added a slew of new games, some of which have the same rating as WoW only they start with letters that come before "W". That's what has caused the drop.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • upallnightupallnight Member Posts: 1,154


    Originally posted by Amathe
    Tell me I am not the first person in this thread to point out that WoW still enjoys a high rating, it's just that the name starts with "W". As between games with the same numerical rating they list them in alphabetical order. Mmorpg.com has added a slew of new games, some of which have the same rating as WoW only they start with letters that come before "W". That's what has caused the drop.

    Since when does E come before C
    Everquest II  then City of Heroes

    And since when does T come before F
    The Saga of Ryzom then Final Fantasy XI

    You're a WoW player aren't you? 

    --------------------------------------
    image image

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