Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by Vengeful -_- I am sooooo about done with this site.
I think you would feel more comfortable with a game like WOW.
You know...you're SOOooooo right.
I meant I'm about down with MMORPG.com
It's always priceless when someone doesn't get sarcasm. You just can't buy that kind of entertainment.
You know...the problem is....there are far too many people on this forum alone where "I think you would feel more comfortable with a game like WOW" is a very vaild response....you can't really expect someone to pick up on sarcasm on a statement like that...
Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by vendris
In spite of my personal feelings about the game, and my opinion that Sigil is greatly exagerrating the game's appeal to non "hardcore" gamers, I just also wish he'd stop getting non hardcore gamers excited by claiming the game has casual appeal, because from what I can tell from Sigil's statements about the game design, it won't.
Exactly. I think it's unconscionable and fraudulent and misleading for Brad to keep deluding casuals and mid-tier players who only have 2 hours a night to play that they will enjoy the game. They won't. Only hard core 8 hours a day raiders will pwnz and everyone else will get absolutely nowhere and experience absolutely nothing. They will be treated like second class citizens and be stuck at a mid-tier level unable to grind up to the level cap. They'll find the process mind numblingly frustrating.
For shame Brad. For shame.
Oh...so...you mean, exactly like WoW?....that game that is sooooo casual and has 6.5 Million subscribers?
You do realize you have to raid to get anywhere in WoW, right? And if you don't raid, you're second class. And those raids are 40 man raids. (Vanguard raids are more like 25ish)
Edit: And on top of that, raiding guilds have a monopoly on certain crafting materials because they are only found in 40 man raid dungeons.
Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by vendris
In spite of my personal feelings about the game, and my opinion that Sigil is greatly exagerrating the game's appeal to non "hardcore" gamers, I just also wish he'd stop getting non hardcore gamers excited by claiming the game has casual appeal, because from what I can tell from Sigil's statements about the game design, it won't.
Exactly. I think it's unconscionable and fraudulent and misleading for Brad to keep deluding casuals and mid-tier players who only have 2 hours a night to play that they will enjoy the game. They won't. Only hard core 8 hours a day raiders will pwnz and everyone else will get absolutely nowhere and experience absolutely nothing. They will be treated like second class citizens and be stuck at a mid-tier level unable to grind up to the level cap. They'll find the process mind numblingly frustrating.
For shame Brad. For shame.
Oh...so...you mean, exactly like WoW?....that game that has 6.5 Million subscribers?
You do realize you have to raid to get anywhere in WoW, right? And those raids are 40 man raids. Vanguard raids are more like 25ish
Edit: And on top of that, raiding guilds have a monopoly on certain crafting materials because they are only found in 40 man raid dungeons.
wow if famous for being casual friendly. leveling to 60 is easy. can be solo'd. no death penalty. vanguard is totl opposite. get ur facts straight. have u ever played wow, btw?
Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by vendris
In spite of my personal feelings about the game, and my opinion that Sigil is greatly exagerrating the game's appeal to non "hardcore" gamers, I just also wish he'd stop getting non hardcore gamers excited by claiming the game has casual appeal, because from what I can tell from Sigil's statements about the game design, it won't.
Exactly. I think it's unconscionable and fraudulent and misleading for Brad to keep deluding casuals and mid-tier players who only have 2 hours a night to play that they will enjoy the game. They won't. Only hard core 8 hours a day raiders will pwnz and everyone else will get absolutely nowhere and experience absolutely nothing. They will be treated like second class citizens and be stuck at a mid-tier level unable to grind up to the level cap. They'll find the process mind numblingly frustrating.
For shame Brad. For shame.
Oh...so...you mean, exactly like WoW?....that game that has 6.5 Million subscribers?
You do realize you have to raid to get anywhere in WoW, right? And those raids are 40 man raids. Vanguard raids are more like 25ish
Edit: And on top of that, raiding guilds have a monopoly on certain crafting materials because they are only found in 40 man raid dungeons.
wow if famous for being casual friendly. leveling to 60 is easy. can be solo'd. no death penalty. vanguard is totl opposite. get ur facts straight. have u ever played wow, btw?
6/8 Nemesis just need my Chest and my Gloves.
I realize it is famous for being casual friendly. But it appears that everone bashing this game about being too "hardcore" is doing so because it's going to be a "Raid or loose" type of game where top guilds control the server and have the best loot.
WoW is like that too, but people seem to forget it. Let me toss out an example.
Most everyone is familiar with the world event that was needed to open the gates to AQ, a set of two instances (20 man raid and a 40 man raid). Well, in order to open the gate, along with alot of farming that needs to be done in the name of one person (who will open the gate) a guild has to run Black Wing Lair (40 man raid, and then toughest raid instance) in under 3 hours and complete a series of raid level quests. Then one person gets a hammer. One person on the server....Now...fine and dandy, right? Well...you see...the guild that completed this on my server, refused to open the gate until they were paid by the rest of the server, horde and alliance alike.
That sounds like a top tier guild controling the server to me. And, as you can bet...the guilds with the best gear in WoW are guilds that raid, crafted and soloed epic items aren't nearly as good. The guilds that win in PvP constantly are guilds that raid constantly and are better geared (cause WoW is an item centric game) or have the 12 hours available each day to play Battle grounds long enough to achieve the top PvP rank.
Edit: So...either Vanguard is casual friendly or WoW isn't...because I mean...WoW is lookin' pretty hardcore from this point of view. Now... THE REASON WoW is casual friendly is because it's easy of play and lack of any real penalty for being terrible at it. Anyone...and I mean anyone can sign on...get a level 60 and party and raid and have no idea about the fine points of their class. I happen to know an 8 year old who is in a raiding guild that downs Rag and is half way through BWL....and believe me, he stinks.
Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by vendris
In spite of my personal feelings about the game, and my opinion that Sigil is greatly exagerrating the game's appeal to non "hardcore" gamers, I just also wish he'd stop getting non hardcore gamers excited by claiming the game has casual appeal, because from what I can tell from Sigil's statements about the game design, it won't.
Exactly. I think it's unconscionable and fraudulent and misleading for Brad to keep deluding casuals and mid-tier players who only have 2 hours a night to play that they will enjoy the game. They won't. Only hard core 8 hours a day raiders will pwnz and everyone else will get absolutely nowhere and experience absolutely nothing. They will be treated like second class citizens and be stuck at a mid-tier level unable to grind up to the level cap. They'll find the process mind numblingly frustrating.
For shame Brad. For shame.
Oh...so...you mean, exactly like WoW?....that game that has 6.5 Million subscribers?
You do realize you have to raid to get anywhere in WoW, right? And those raids are 40 man raids. Vanguard raids are more like 25ish
Edit: And on top of that, raiding guilds have a monopoly on certain crafting materials because they are only found in 40 man raid dungeons.
wow if famous for being casual friendly. leveling to 60 is easy. can be solo'd. no death penalty. vanguard is totl opposite. get ur facts straight. have u ever played wow, btw?
6/8 Nemesis just need my Chest and my Gloves.
I realize it is famous for being casual friendly. But it appears that everone bashing this game about being too "hardcore" is doing so because it's going to be a "Raid or loose" type of game where top guilds control the server and have the best loot.
WoW is like that too, but people seem to forget it. Let me toss out an example.
Most everyone is familiar with the world event that was needed to open the gates to AQ, a set of two instances (20 man raid and a 40 man raid). Well, in order to open the gate, along with alot of farming that needs to be done in the name of one person (who will open the gate) a guild has to run Black Wing Lair (40 man raid, and then toughest raid instance) in under 3 hours and complete a series of raid level quests. Then one person gets a hammer. One person on the server....Now...fine and dandy, right? Well...you see...the guild that completed this on my server, refused to open the gate until they were paid by the rest of the server, horde and alliance alike.
That sounds like a top tier guild controling the server to me. And, as you can bet...the guilds with the best gear in WoW are guilds that raid, crafted and soloed epic items aren't nearly as good. The guilds that win in PvP constantly are guilds that raid constantly and are better geared (cause WoW is an item centric game) or have the 12 hours available each day to play Battle grounds long enough to achieve the top PvP rank.
WoW is not like that at all, because in WoW, the raid dungeons are instanced. Yes, you do have to be in a guild, or a coalition of guilds capable of raiding, to get the best gear in WoW. It's one of the reasons I left the game, in fact, because I don't enjoy raiding.
However, in a game with instanced ecounters, a raid guild can not stop anyone else from having access to the content. Anyone capable of gathering together 20 or 40 players can go to a raid instance and try it.
In a non instanced game, raid guilds can camp the encounters and block other people from having access to them. This isn't a theoretical situation; it is a situation that has occured and is occuring in every single MMO that has non instanced raid level ecounters.
In WoW, you need to be in -a- raid guild to access the raid content. In Vanguard, you will need to be in -the right- raid guild to have acecss to the content. That's a very important distinction.
WoW is not like that at all, because in WoW, the raid dungeons are instanced. Yes, you do have to be in a guild, or a coalition of guilds capable of raiding, to get the best gear in WoW. It's one of the reasons I left the game, in fact, because I don't enjoy raiding.
However, in a game with instanced ecounters, a raid guild can not stop anyone else from having access to the content. Anyone capable of gathering together 20 or 40 players can go to a raid instance and try it.
In a non instanced game, raid guilds can camp the encounters and block other people from having access to them. This isn't a theoretical situation; it is a situation that has occured and is occuring in every single MMO that has non instanced raid level ecounters.
In WoW, you need to be in -a- raid guild to access the raid content. In Vanguard, you will need to be in -the right- raid guild to have acecss to the content. That's a very important distinction.
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Originally posted by vendris WoW is not like that at all, because in WoW, the raid dungeons are instanced. Yes, you do have to be in a guild, or a coalition of guilds capable of raiding, to get the best gear in WoW. It's one of the reasons I left the game, in fact, because I don't enjoy raiding.
However, in a game with instanced ecounters, a raid guild can not stop anyone else from having access to the content. Anyone capable of gathering together 20 or 40 players can go to a raid instance and try it.
In a non instanced game, raid guilds can camp the encounters and block other people from having access to them. This isn't a theoretical situation; it is a situation that has occured and is occuring in every single MMO that has non instanced raid level ecounters.
In WoW, you need to be in -a- raid guild to access the raid content. In Vanguard, you will need to be in -the right- raid guild to have acecss to the content. That's a very important distinction.
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Raid Camping Issue: Solved.
And the advanced encounter system will also be used for resource gathering from dungeons for important crafting materials to make high end items? Harvestable resources are going to be controlled by the advanced encounter system?
And are the majority of all encounters which drop good items going to use the advanced encounter system? Everything I've read has strongly implied the advance encounter style encounters are relatively rare compared to the majority of the game content, if I am incorrect could you point me to better information?
Originally posted by vendris Originally posted by Vengeful
Originally posted by vendris WoW is not like that at all, because in WoW, the raid dungeons are instanced. Yes, you do have to be in a guild, or a coalition of guilds capable of raiding, to get the best gear in WoW. It's one of the reasons I left the game, in fact, because I don't enjoy raiding.
However, in a game with instanced ecounters, a raid guild can not stop anyone else from having access to the content. Anyone capable of gathering together 20 or 40 players can go to a raid instance and try it.
In a non instanced game, raid guilds can camp the encounters and block other people from having access to them. This isn't a theoretical situation; it is a situation that has occured and is occuring in every single MMO that has non instanced raid level ecounters.
In WoW, you need to be in -a- raid guild to access the raid content. In Vanguard, you will need to be in -the right- raid guild to have acecss to the content. That's a very important distinction.
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Raid Camping Issue: Solved.
And the advanced encounter system will also be used for resource gathering from dungeons for important crafting materials to make high end items? Harvestable resources are going to be controlled by the advanced encounter system?
And are the majority of all encounters which drop good items going to use the advanced encounter system? Everything I've read has strongly implied the advance encounter style encounters are relatively rare compared to the majority of the game content, if I am incorrect could you point me to better information?
Did it even minutely look like I was trying to hold the Advanced Encounter System accountable for fixing the problems of a games economy? No it doesn't.
The problem with predicting the economy of a game is three fold:
1) Economies are Player Driven, and it is too difficult to know what the economy will deem "important" before the game is launched, ie the demand of raid harvested materials.
2) The economy rests on the allure of the crafting system, and whether it is popular.
3) Effects on the game by unregulated outside sources.
The truth of the matter is however you or I think the economy will end up is beyond us to figure out, though we CAN speculate that if the economy is anything like WoWs it won't be a hinderance to casual players, because well...that game is "Casual Friendly" and has the same problem factors that you speculate Vanguard will have.
Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by vendris Originally posted by Vengeful
Originally posted by vendris WoW is not like that at all, because in WoW, the raid dungeons are instanced. Yes, you do have to be in a guild, or a coalition of guilds capable of raiding, to get the best gear in WoW. It's one of the reasons I left the game, in fact, because I don't enjoy raiding.
However, in a game with instanced ecounters, a raid guild can not stop anyone else from having access to the content. Anyone capable of gathering together 20 or 40 players can go to a raid instance and try it.
In a non instanced game, raid guilds can camp the encounters and block other people from having access to them. This isn't a theoretical situation; it is a situation that has occured and is occuring in every single MMO that has non instanced raid level ecounters.
In WoW, you need to be in -a- raid guild to access the raid content. In Vanguard, you will need to be in -the right- raid guild to have acecss to the content. That's a very important distinction.
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Raid Camping Issue: Solved.
And the advanced encounter system will also be used for resource gathering from dungeons for important crafting materials to make high end items? Harvestable resources are going to be controlled by the advanced encounter system?
And are the majority of all encounters which drop good items going to use the advanced encounter system? Everything I've read has strongly implied the advance encounter style encounters are relatively rare compared to the majority of the game content, if I am incorrect could you point me to better information?
Did it even minutely look like I was trying to hold the Advanced Encounter System accountable for fixing the problems of a games economy? No it doesn't.
The problem with predicting the economy of a game is three fold:
1) Economies are Player Driven, and it is too difficult to know what the economy will deem "important" before the game is launched, ie the demand of raid harvested materials.
2) The economy rests on the allure of the crafting system, and whether it is popular.
3) Effects on the game by unregulated outside sources.
The truth of the matter is however you or I think the economy will end up is beyond us to figure out, though we CAN speculate that if the economy is anything like WoWs it won't be a hinderance to casual players, because well...that game is "Casual Friendly" and has the same problem factors that you speculate Vanguard will have.
First of all, I didn't say the advanced encounter system would "fix the games economy". Brad has stated that the materials necessary to craft "the good stuff" will be available in deep, dangerous, hard dungeons that will require the teamwork of fighters and harvesters to get to and harvest the materials. These dungeons are, as we've been discussing, not instanced. What mechanism is in place to keep large, organized guilds from camping those dungeons and completely monopolizing the supply of the crafting materials?
Second of all, you didn't answer my other question. Is there any information about what the break down is between advanced encounter system encounters, and standard encounters? You claimed the advanced encounter system was going to solve raid camping issues. From what I've read, it seems like Advanced Encounter System encounters are relatively rare, as far as game content goes. As I've said, I could be wrong, and I'm looking for more information.
Originally posted by vendris Originally posted by Vengeful
Originally posted by vendris
Originally posted by Vengeful
Originally posted by vendris WoW is not like that at all, because in WoW, the raid dungeons are instanced. Yes, you do have to be in a guild, or a coalition of guilds capable of raiding, to get the best gear in WoW. It's one of the reasons I left the game, in fact, because I don't enjoy raiding.
However, in a game with instanced ecounters, a raid guild can not stop anyone else from having access to the content. Anyone capable of gathering together 20 or 40 players can go to a raid instance and try it.
In a non instanced game, raid guilds can camp the encounters and block other people from having access to them. This isn't a theoretical situation; it is a situation that has occured and is occuring in every single MMO that has non instanced raid level ecounters.
In WoW, you need to be in -a- raid guild to access the raid content. In Vanguard, you will need to be in -the right- raid guild to have acecss to the content. That's a very important distinction.
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Raid Camping Issue: Solved.
And the advanced encounter system will also be used for resource gathering from dungeons for important crafting materials to make high end items? Harvestable resources are going to be controlled by the advanced encounter system?
And are the majority of all encounters which drop good items going to use the advanced encounter system? Everything I've read has strongly implied the advance encounter style encounters are relatively rare compared to the majority of the game content, if I am incorrect could you point me to better information?
Did it even minutely look like I was trying to hold the Advanced Encounter System accountable for fixing the problems of a games economy? No it doesn't.
The problem with predicting the economy of a game is three fold:
1) Economies are Player Driven, and it is too difficult to know what the economy will deem "important" before the game is launched, ie the demand of raid harvested materials.
2) The economy rests on the allure of the crafting system, and whether it is popular.
3) Effects on the game by unregulated outside sources.
The truth of the matter is however you or I think the economy will end up is beyond us to figure out, though we CAN speculate that if the economy is anything like WoWs it won't be a hinderance to casual players, because well...that game is "Casual Friendly" and has the same problem factors that you speculate Vanguard will have.
First of all, I didn't say the advanced encounter system would "fix the games economy". Brad has stated that the materials necessary to craft "the good stuff" will be available in deep, dangerous, hard dungeons that will require the teamwork of fighters and harvesters to get to and harvest the materials. These dungeons are, as we've been discussing, not instanced. What mechanism is in place to keep large, organized guilds from camping those dungeons and completely monopolizing the supply of the crafting materials?
Second of all, you didn't answer my other question. Is there any information about what the break down is between advanced encounter system encounters, and standard encounters? You claimed the advanced encounter system was going to solve raid camping issues. From what I've read, it seems like Advanced Encounter System encounters are relatively rare, as far as game content goes. As I've said, I could be wrong, and I'm looking for more information.
There is nothing stoping them, This is what they want, this is who they cater to. Endless grindfest-no-life-having-uber-guilds-with-200+-people.
Camping of mobs and spots is "working as intended".
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by vendris Is there any information about what the break down is between advanced encounter system encounters, and standard encounters? You claimed the advanced encounter system was going to solve raid camping issues. From what I've read, it seems like Advanced Encounter System encounters are relatively rare, as far as game content goes.
My understanding is that the Advanced Encounter System (AES) is used for all raids and all group quests with great loot that in other MMOs (like WOW) would result in an instance. Basically, it is supposed to obviate any camping of uber named bosses that drop the uber loot.
Camping will still exist for named bosses mean for solo or small group encounters dropping craptacular loot for these 2nd class citizens.
Can I prove this or show any links? Can't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying that this is my impression of the system from what I've read in various places on the Vanguard boards and articles.
If your information about the ratio of ACS and non ACS is true, then that's good news at least. I still won't be playing the game, but I'm glad to see that Sigil is addressing some of these problems (assuming your information is accurate).
Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by vendris Is there any information about what the break down is between advanced encounter system encounters, and standard encounters? You claimed the advanced encounter system was going to solve raid camping issues. From what I've read, it seems like Advanced Encounter System encounters are relatively rare, as far as game content goes.
My understanding is that the Advanced Encounter System (AES) is used for all raids and all group quests with great loot that in other MMOs (like WOW) would result in an instance. Basically, it is supposed to obviate any camping of uber named bosses that drop the uber loot.
Camping will still exist for named bosses mean for solo or small group encounters dropping craptacular loot for these 2nd class citizens.
Can I prove this or show any links? Can't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying that this is my impression of the system from what I've read in various places on the Vanguard boards and articles.
Originally posted by vendris First of all, I didn't say the advanced encounter system would "fix the games economy". Brad has stated that the materials necessary to craft "the good stuff" will be available in deep, dangerous, hard dungeons that will require the teamwork of fighters and harvesters to get to and harvest the materials. These dungeons are, as we've been discussing, not instanced. What mechanism is in place to keep large, organized guilds from camping those dungeons and completely monopolizing the supply of the crafting materials?
Which is precisely how WoW, the praised 'Casual Gamers Game' handles the majority of it's resources. They are out in the open, un-instanced and easily monopolized by organized guilds. Organized guilds also monoplize the instanced materials, ie Lava Cores, Fiery Cores, and Elementium.
The fact of the matter is, there is rewards for putting int the effort to become an organized guild in all MMOs and is commonly held as the way it should be. Whether or not that is accurate or there is another way is yet to be seen, but this is obviously not something that prevents acessability...as well...this is something that Occurs in WoW, which is the champion of Casual MMORPGs.
Second of all, you didn't answer my other question. Is there any information about what the break down is between advanced encounter system encounters, and standard encounters? You claimed the advanced encounter system was going to solve raid camping issues. From what I've read, it seems like Advanced Encounter System encounters are relatively rare, as far as game content goes. As I've said, I could be wrong, and I'm looking for more information.
Here's a quote from the Vanguard FAQ:
"Golden Mobs" are typically only at the end of an encounter route or special quest which involves massive amounts of work by one set of individuals. We do not want a groups collective effort being spoiled after working towards something for a long period of time.
We don't lock standard encounters.
There is a huge difference between two groups competing for a standard spawn, and a group coming in and destroying the last hour of /your blood sweat and tears.
Again to be clear – only a very limited number of NPCs will be golden. These will most often be the final boss type encounter NPCs.
A very limited subset of NPCs involved in an encounter route will be “Golden” NPCs. These are the only NPCs which others may not interact with. A majority of encounter routes are planned to play upon the standard population of the dungeon as stated above.
The purpose of the “Golden” NPC is to insure that a group which has been working on an Encounter Route for several hours and finally spawns a boss mob does not have said boss mob “stolen” “ks’d” or otherwise molested by other players.
Now a little reading comprehension:
There are far fewer raid and dungeon "boss" encounters in the game than standard "trash mob" encounters. Therefore, unlocked encounters are in the vast minority. Yet...if you treck into a dungeon, with 6 people and you go all the way through you'll get your "Golden" Boss spawn just as I described.
Now if there were 100 bosses in the entire Vanguard universe....they'll most likely all be locked for you when you get to the end of their dungeon....now of corse, there may be 10,000 trash mobs that won't be locked....so, yes you were correct in saying they were using the locked encounter very seldomly...but they are locking the important ones...the ones you want to be locked.
Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by vendris Is there any information about what the break down is between advanced encounter system encounters, and standard encounters? You claimed the advanced encounter system was going to solve raid camping issues. From what I've read, it seems like Advanced Encounter System encounters are relatively rare, as far as game content goes.
My understanding is that the Advanced Encounter System (AES) is used for all raids and all group quests with great loot that in other MMOs (like WOW) would result in an instance. Basically, it is supposed to obviate any camping of uber named bosses that drop the uber loot.
Camping will still exist for named bosses mean for solo or small group encounters dropping craptacular loot for these 2nd class citizens.
Can I prove this or show any links? Can't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying that this is my impression of the system from what I've read in various places on the Vanguard boards and articles.
They did say that Soloers will probably not have encounter routes to the greatest extent, because the majority of the content being made for them isn't in a dungeon...but they will still be subject to Encounter flags and whatnot, meaning....you get a quest to kill a named mob....when you get close to where that named mob spawns, it will spawn for you and you alone, locked for you. You kill it...loot it, turn in quest.
Additionally...quests like these will be made so that you can't trivialize solo content by grouping...if you're in a group and trying to kill a soloable named mob...he may not spawn for you. (could be wrong, but I'm putting 1 and 1 togther about scaleable encounters)
And, just to satisfy you...Brad has said that "The Best" loot will be evenly spread between Solo, Group, Raiding, Crafting, and Diplomacy with Group content having a slightly bigger share. So...while a soloer doesn't like raiding but can stand grouping occasionally...he may get the Best Sword and best AC Chest, but won't get the Best Shield. And likewise, a Raider who hates soloing (like myself) Can get the Best Shield and the Best AC chest, but I'm not gonna get the Best Sword.
Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by vendris Is there any information about what the break down is between advanced encounter system encounters, and standard encounters? You claimed the advanced encounter system was going to solve raid camping issues. From what I've read, it seems like Advanced Encounter System encounters are relatively rare, as far as game content goes.
My understanding is that the Advanced Encounter System (AES) is used for all raids and all group quests with great loot that in other MMOs (like WOW) would result in an instance. Basically, it is supposed to obviate any camping of uber named bosses that drop the uber loot.
Camping will still exist for named bosses mean for solo or small group encounters dropping craptacular loot for these 2nd class citizens.
Can I prove this or show any links? Can't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying that this is my impression of the system from what I've read in various places on the Vanguard boards and articles.
They did say that Soloers will probably not have encounter routes to the greatest extent, because the majority of the content being made for them isn't in a dungeon...but they will still be subject to Encounter flags and whatnot, meaning....you get a quest to kill a named mob....when you get close to where that named mob spawns, it will spawn for you and you alone, locked for you. You kill it...loot it, turn in quest.
Additionally...quests like these will be made so that you can't trivialize solo content by grouping...if you're in a group and trying to kill a soloable named mob...he may not spawn for you. (could be wrong, but I'm putting 1 and 1 togther about scaleable encounters)
And, just to satisfy you...Brad has said that "The Best" loot will be evenly spread between Solo, Group, Raiding, Crafting, and Diplomacy with Group content having a slightly bigger share. So...while a soloer doesn't like raiding but can stand grouping occasionally...he may get the Best Sword and best AC Chest, but won't get the Best Shield. And likewise, a Raider who hates soloing (like myself) Can get the Best Shield and the Best AC chest, but I'm not gonna get the Best Sword.
I've never felt that Vanguard would be very friendly to solo players, so if it's not, it's not anything I'd be upset about. However, if the game does end up being small guild / group friendly, it's something I would consider trying out. My personal feeling is that the game will not be small guild / group friendly and that anyone who enjoys that play style will end up shut out of large portions of the game. In that case, I wouldn't play it because it's not for me. I don't have an issue with that, except that I don't want to see the game pushed as being solo / small group friendly in order to get more subscribers and then have it turn out that huge sections of the content are only available to "hardcore", large raid guilds.
I spent quite a bit of time in WoW only to have the rug pulled out from me, with everything in the game past Dire Maul designed exclusively for raiders, and raid instance after raid instance pushed out the door while vague promises about more small group content "soon" were meant to keep people who didn't enjoy raiding shelling out their monthly fee in the hopes they would get more content. In a game with no instances, the potential for the complete lock out of non "hardcore' players becomes magnified.
I've never felt that Vanguard would be very friendly to solo players, so if it's not, it's not anything I'd be upset about. However, if the game does end up being small guild / group friendly, it's something I would consider trying out. My personal feeling is that the game will not be small guild / group friendly and that anyone who enjoys that play style will end up shut out of large portions of the game. In that case, I wouldn't play it because it's not for me. I don't have an issue with that, except that I don't want to see the game pushed as being solo / small group friendly in order to get more subscribers and then have it turn out that huge sections of the content are only available to "hardcore", large raid guilds.
I spent quite a bit of time in WoW only to have the rug pulled out from me, with everything in the game past Dire Maul designed exclusively for raiders, and raid instance after raid instance pushed out the door while vague promises about more small group content "soon" were meant to keep people who didn't enjoy raiding shelling out their monthly fee in the hopes they would get more content. In a game with no instances, the potential for the complete lock out of non "hardcore' players becomes magnified.
Well, the game is just that. The game is built to appeal to and satisfy people who's majority of play time is spent in groups of 3-6....and even then, the most people that will be in a raid will be about 25 people, and raid dungeons will allow you to semi-save your progress so that you can break the content up over a couple of days.
The designers are stressing that they are making the game with 60% of it's total content for groups between 3 and 6 people. Now this content isn't proportioned as WoWs is..where the Group content is between levels 1 and 59 and raids start at lvl 60. In Vanguard, you will be able to start raiding at early levels if you so wish... and in building the game in this fashion will notice that even at "End game" 60% of the Endgame Content will be for groups of 3 to 6. (20% solo and 20% Raiding)
Now does that mean that there are 2 raid encounters for every 6 group encounters? No...1 raid encounter takes up alot of time....So likely, it would take you 6 times the amount of time to expeirence all of the end game small group content as it would to experience the raiding content.
Edit:
Here is the key though: Just like Sigil doesn't want to piss off the soloers, they also don't want to piss off and ignore the raiders. So, I mean...obviously they would want to allow for raiding to be a viable style of play...but they realize (unlike MMOs to date, Blizzard is starting to figure this out now) that a balance needs to be struck and one playstyle can't dominate the others. WoW is so successful because it has a better balance than games that proceeded it....but...well...I just hope that Vanguard can do an even better job
The problems with grouping versus solo is not that the games have changed. Its that the people and the emphasis has changed.
Back in the old days we didn't have "DKPs" and "mandatory Ventrillo." We took people as they were, took chances, and roleplayed. It was easy to find groups back then and have fun, because we didn't organize our games, our friends, and our time there as a whole like a business investor or a professional sports team would. We never let the "business of playing" interfere with the play.
Times have changed though, and we have lost that ability to put the game in perspective. Now we have "PUG bashing," and "voice freezeouts." We have more excuses why we shouldn't group with this or that particular person, than why we should.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Originally posted by Beatnik59 The problems with grouping versus solo is not that the games have changed. Its that the people and the emphasis has changed. Back in the old days we didn't have "DKPs" and "mandatory Ventrillo." We took people as they were, took chances, and roleplayed. It was easy to find groups back then and have fun, because we didn't organize our games, our friends, and our time there as a whole like a business investor or a professional sports team would. We never let the "business of playing" interfere with the play. Times have changed though, and we have lost that ability to put the game in perspective. Now we have "PUG bashing," and "voice freezeouts." We have more excuses why we shouldn't group with this or that particular person, than why we should.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 The problems with grouping versus solo is not that the games have changed. Its that the people and the emphasis has changed. Back in the old days we didn't have "DKPs" and "mandatory Ventrillo." We took people as they were, took chances, and roleplayed. It was easy to find groups back then and have fun, because we didn't organize our games, our friends, and our time there as a whole like a business investor or a professional sports team would. We never let the "business of playing" interfere with the play. Times have changed though, and we have lost that ability to put the game in perspective. Now we have "PUG bashing," and "voice freezeouts." We have more excuses why we shouldn't group with this or that particular person, than why we should.
This is one of the reasons why I have been enjoying City of Villains so much lately. I see the game being bashed quite a bit for being too simple and truth be told, other than the character customization (both appearance and power pools) it is very scaled down and simple compared to most MMOs.
However, because the game doesn't use the standard tank / healer / dps set up, there is no real loot, and there are no raids, it doesn't have any of the ridiculous business-like garbage that you outlined in your post. I log on, grab a few people for a group without worrying about their classes or what guild they're in or anything, and we go hit some missions and have a blast. The people (at least on the server I play on) are for the most part all very laid back and are just playing to have -fun-. You know, fun? That thing that most MMOs seem to have forgotten about lately.
Originally posted by vendris Originally posted by Beatnik59 The problems with grouping versus solo is not that the games have changed. Its that the people and the emphasis has changed. Back in the old days we didn't have "DKPs" and "mandatory Ventrillo." We took people as they were, took chances, and roleplayed. It was easy to find groups back then and have fun, because we didn't organize our games, our friends, and our time there as a whole like a business investor or a professional sports team would. We never let the "business of playing" interfere with the play. Times have changed though, and we have lost that ability to put the game in perspective. Now we have "PUG bashing," and "voice freezeouts." We have more excuses why we shouldn't group with this or that particular person, than why we should.
This is one of the reasons why I have been enjoying City of Villains so much lately. I see the game being bashed quite a bit for being too simple and truth be told, other than the character customization (both appearance and power pools) it is very scaled down and simple compared to most MMOs.
However, because the game doesn't use the standard tank / healer / dps set up, there is no real loot, and there are no raids, it doesn't have any of the ridiculous business-like garbage that you outlined in your post. I log on, grab a few people for a group without worrying about their classes or what guild they're in or anything, and we go hit some missions and have a blast. The people (at least on the server I play on) are for the most part all very laid back and are just playing to have -fun-. You know, fun? That thing that most MMOs seem to have forgotten about lately.
My first MMO was CoH, actually....I played it for 5 months....and about a week after I hit lvl 50, I quit. The only thing that really keeps you interested in that game is making alts, and I already had like two at level 30 or so. =/
I bought WoW after that cause I was looking for more depth, something a lil' harder. And WoW satisfied me for about a year and a half or so. But then...the same thing happened. I've gotten bored and I know I need something with even MORE depth....something that is harder and has more avenues of advancement and a larger selection of classes.
Tried DAoC for...well...lets say it took me longer to download than I spent playing it. I can't stand games that have terrible UIs.
Tried DDO, played it for a month...the apparent depth from the adventures was quickly taken away when people started warning me of traps bore hand and pointing out the control boxes.
Tried EQII for a month....WoW + Crafting - Friends
So...meh...I'm reluctantly playing WoW again, figured I'd finish off my Nemesis set...give me something to do until the next big wave of MMOs comes out.
Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by vendris Originally posted by Beatnik59 The problems with grouping versus solo is not that the games have changed. Its that the people and the emphasis has changed. Back in the old days we didn't have "DKPs" and "mandatory Ventrillo." We took people as they were, took chances, and roleplayed. It was easy to find groups back then and have fun, because we didn't organize our games, our friends, and our time there as a whole like a business investor or a professional sports team would. We never let the "business of playing" interfere with the play. Times have changed though, and we have lost that ability to put the game in perspective. Now we have "PUG bashing," and "voice freezeouts." We have more excuses why we shouldn't group with this or that particular person, than why we should.
This is one of the reasons why I have been enjoying City of Villains so much lately. I see the game being bashed quite a bit for being too simple and truth be told, other than the character customization (both appearance and power pools) it is very scaled down and simple compared to most MMOs.
However, because the game doesn't use the standard tank / healer / dps set up, there is no real loot, and there are no raids, it doesn't have any of the ridiculous business-like garbage that you outlined in your post. I log on, grab a few people for a group without worrying about their classes or what guild they're in or anything, and we go hit some missions and have a blast. The people (at least on the server I play on) are for the most part all very laid back and are just playing to have -fun-. You know, fun? That thing that most MMOs seem to have forgotten about lately.
My first MMO was CoH, actually....I played it for 5 months....and about a week after I hit lvl 50, I quit. The only thing that really keeps you interested in that game is making alts, and I already had like two at level 30 or so. =/
I bought WoW after that cause I was looking for more depth, something a lil' harder. And WoW satisfied me for about a year and a half or so. But then...the same thing happened. I've gotten bored and I know I need something with even MORE depth....something that is harder and has more avenues of advancement and a larger selection of classes.
Tried DAoC for...well...lets say it took me longer to download than I spent playing it. I can't stand games that have terrible UIs.
Tried DDO, played it for a month...the apparent depth from the adventures was quickly taken away when people started warning me of traps bore hand and pointing out the control boxes.
Tried EQII for a month....WoW + Crafting - Friends
So...meh...I'm reluctantly playing WoW again, figured I'd finish off my Nemesis set...give me something to do until the next big wave of MMOs comes out.
is ur point that casual games don't hold your interest for very long? not sure if i understand what you're getting at here.
is ur point that casual games don't hold your interest for very long? not sure if i understand what you're getting at here.
Just that with my MMO history, I've progressively been looking for games with more depth. WoW held my attention for a year and a half...if Vanguard pulls through and is what I think it is...I'll be addicted to that for much longer.
Originally posted by jonaku is ur point that casual games don't hold your interest for very long? not sure if i understand what you're getting at here.
Just that with my MMO history, I've progressively been looking for games with more depth. WoW held my attention for a year and a half...if Vanguard pulls through and is what I think it is...I'll be addicted to that for much longer.
preCU swg had a lot of depth and was still VERY casual/solo friendly. the whole reason why there was such uproar about CU/NGE was that people like me played the game for so long and would have continued to play the game for many more years had they not instituted CU/NGE.
the fallacy of the vanguard community is that they mistakenly think that tedium, long grinds, annoying game mechanics, requiring groups to level up, sadomasochistic CRs, etc. are required to make the game interesting over a long period of time.
in swg, it was very solo friendly, the death penalty was light, there were no CRs (after a while), you had GPS maps, etc. etc. but there was still so much depth in the sandbox environment.
Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by Vengeful
Originally posted by jonaku is ur point that casual games don't hold your interest for very long? not sure if i understand what you're getting at here.
Just that with my MMO history, I've progressively been looking for games with more depth. WoW held my attention for a year and a half...if Vanguard pulls through and is what I think it is...I'll be addicted to that for much longer.
preCU swg had a lot of depth and was still VERY casual/solo friendly. the whole reason why there was such uproar about CU/NGE was that people like me played the game for so long and would have continued to play the game for many more years had they not instituted CU/NGE.
the fallacy of the vanguard community is that they mistakenly think that tedium, long grinds, annoying game mechanics, requiring groups to level up, sadomasochistic CRs, etc. are required to make the game interesting over a long period of time.
in swg, it was very solo friendly, the death penalty was light, there were no CRs (after a while), you had GPS maps, etc. etc. but there was still so much depth in the sandbox environment.
I think you misunderstand the Vanguard's community's reasoning behind wanting said mechanics....that to truely enjoy a game, it can't really pass you buy at break neck speed, and to truely appreciate your accomplishments in a game, you should have to break a sweat and toiled a while.
The primary problem with these casual games is that you can complete all of the Endgame and be extremely terrible at the game, which ultimately makes the people who are good at the game feel....well...like they've waisted their time and their accomplishments mean nothing.
Originally posted by Vengeful Originally posted by jonaku Originally posted by Vengeful
Originally posted by jonaku is ur point that casual games don't hold your interest for very long? not sure if i understand what you're getting at here.
Just that with my MMO history, I've progressively been looking for games with more depth. WoW held my attention for a year and a half...if Vanguard pulls through and is what I think it is...I'll be addicted to that for much longer.
preCU swg had a lot of depth and was still VERY casual/solo friendly. the whole reason why there was such uproar about CU/NGE was that people like me played the game for so long and would have continued to play the game for many more years had they not instituted CU/NGE.
the fallacy of the vanguard community is that they mistakenly think that tedium, long grinds, annoying game mechanics, requiring groups to level up, sadomasochistic CRs, etc. are required to make the game interesting over a long period of time.
in swg, it was very solo friendly, the death penalty was light, there were no CRs (after a while), you had GPS maps, etc. etc. but there was still so much depth in the sandbox environment.
I think you misunderstand the Vanguard's community's reasoning behind wanting said mechanics....that to truely enjoy a game, it can't really pass you buy at break neck speed, and to truely appreciate your accomplishments in a game, you should have to break a sweat and toiled a while.
The primary problem with these casual games is that you can complete all of the Endgame and be extremely terrible at the game, which ultimately makes the people who are good at the game feel....well...like they've waisted their time and their accomplishments mean nothing.
this perspective i find to be elitist and ultimately very sad. it's no wonder there's so much hate for the vanboi collective.
Comments
You know...you're SOOooooo right.
I meant I'm about down with MMORPG.com
It's always priceless when someone doesn't get sarcasm. You just can't buy that kind of entertainment.
You know...the problem is....there are far too many people on this forum alone where "I think you would feel more comfortable with a game like WOW" is a very vaild response....you can't really expect someone to pick up on sarcasm on a statement like that...
-_-
Hence "I'm about done with this site"
Exactly. I think it's unconscionable and fraudulent and misleading for Brad to keep deluding casuals and mid-tier players who only have 2 hours a night to play that they will enjoy the game. They won't. Only hard core 8 hours a day raiders will pwnz and everyone else will get absolutely nowhere and experience absolutely nothing. They will be treated like second class citizens and be stuck at a mid-tier level unable to grind up to the level cap. They'll find the process mind numblingly frustrating.
For shame Brad. For shame.
Oh...so...you mean, exactly like WoW?....that game that is sooooo casual and has 6.5 Million subscribers?
You do realize you have to raid to get anywhere in WoW, right? And if you don't raid, you're second class. And those raids are 40 man raids. (Vanguard raids are more like 25ish)
Edit: And on top of that, raiding guilds have a monopoly on certain crafting materials because they are only found in 40 man raid dungeons.
Exactly. I think it's unconscionable and fraudulent and misleading for Brad to keep deluding casuals and mid-tier players who only have 2 hours a night to play that they will enjoy the game. They won't. Only hard core 8 hours a day raiders will pwnz and everyone else will get absolutely nowhere and experience absolutely nothing. They will be treated like second class citizens and be stuck at a mid-tier level unable to grind up to the level cap. They'll find the process mind numblingly frustrating.
For shame Brad. For shame.
Oh...so...you mean, exactly like WoW?....that game that has 6.5 Million subscribers?
You do realize you have to raid to get anywhere in WoW, right? And those raids are 40 man raids. Vanguard raids are more like 25ish
Edit: And on top of that, raiding guilds have a monopoly on certain crafting materials because they are only found in 40 man raid dungeons.
wow if famous for being casual friendly. leveling to 60 is easy. can be solo'd. no death penalty. vanguard is totl opposite. get ur facts straight. have u ever played wow, btw?
Exactly. I think it's unconscionable and fraudulent and misleading for Brad to keep deluding casuals and mid-tier players who only have 2 hours a night to play that they will enjoy the game. They won't. Only hard core 8 hours a day raiders will pwnz and everyone else will get absolutely nowhere and experience absolutely nothing. They will be treated like second class citizens and be stuck at a mid-tier level unable to grind up to the level cap. They'll find the process mind numblingly frustrating.
For shame Brad. For shame.
Oh...so...you mean, exactly like WoW?....that game that has 6.5 Million subscribers?
You do realize you have to raid to get anywhere in WoW, right? And those raids are 40 man raids. Vanguard raids are more like 25ish
Edit: And on top of that, raiding guilds have a monopoly on certain crafting materials because they are only found in 40 man raid dungeons.
wow if famous for being casual friendly. leveling to 60 is easy. can be solo'd. no death penalty. vanguard is totl opposite. get ur facts straight. have u ever played wow, btw?
6/8 Nemesis
just need my Chest and my Gloves.
I realize it is famous for being casual friendly. But it appears that everone bashing this game about being too "hardcore" is doing so because it's going to be a "Raid or loose" type of game where top guilds control the server and have the best loot.
WoW is like that too, but people seem to forget it. Let me toss out an example.
Most everyone is familiar with the world event that was needed to open the gates to AQ, a set of two instances (20 man raid and a 40 man raid). Well, in order to open the gate, along with alot of farming that needs to be done in the name of one person (who will open the gate) a guild has to run Black Wing Lair (40 man raid, and then toughest raid instance) in under 3 hours and complete a series of raid level quests. Then one person gets a hammer. One person on the server....Now...fine and dandy, right? Well...you see...the guild that completed this on my server, refused to open the gate until they were paid by the rest of the server, horde and alliance alike.
That sounds like a top tier guild controling the server to me. And, as you can bet...the guilds with the best gear in WoW are guilds that raid, crafted and soloed epic items aren't nearly as good. The guilds that win in PvP constantly are guilds that raid constantly and are better geared (cause WoW is an item centric game) or have the 12 hours available each day to play Battle grounds long enough to achieve the top PvP rank.
Edit: So...either Vanguard is casual friendly or WoW isn't...because I mean...WoW is lookin' pretty hardcore from this point of view. Now... THE REASON WoW is casual friendly is because it's easy of play and lack of any real penalty for being terrible at it. Anyone...and I mean anyone can sign on...get a level 60 and party and raid and have no idea about the fine points of their class. I happen to know an 8 year old who is in a raiding guild that downs Rag and is half way through BWL....and believe me, he stinks.
Exactly. I think it's unconscionable and fraudulent and misleading for Brad to keep deluding casuals and mid-tier players who only have 2 hours a night to play that they will enjoy the game. They won't. Only hard core 8 hours a day raiders will pwnz and everyone else will get absolutely nowhere and experience absolutely nothing. They will be treated like second class citizens and be stuck at a mid-tier level unable to grind up to the level cap. They'll find the process mind numblingly frustrating.
For shame Brad. For shame.
Oh...so...you mean, exactly like WoW?....that game that has 6.5 Million subscribers?
You do realize you have to raid to get anywhere in WoW, right? And those raids are 40 man raids. Vanguard raids are more like 25ish
Edit: And on top of that, raiding guilds have a monopoly on certain crafting materials because they are only found in 40 man raid dungeons.
wow if famous for being casual friendly. leveling to 60 is easy. can be solo'd. no death penalty. vanguard is totl opposite. get ur facts straight. have u ever played wow, btw?
6/8 Nemesis
just need my Chest and my Gloves.
I realize it is famous for being casual friendly. But it appears that everone bashing this game about being too "hardcore" is doing so because it's going to be a "Raid or loose" type of game where top guilds control the server and have the best loot.
WoW is like that too, but people seem to forget it. Let me toss out an example.
Most everyone is familiar with the world event that was needed to open the gates to AQ, a set of two instances (20 man raid and a 40 man raid). Well, in order to open the gate, along with alot of farming that needs to be done in the name of one person (who will open the gate) a guild has to run Black Wing Lair (40 man raid, and then toughest raid instance) in under 3 hours and complete a series of raid level quests. Then one person gets a hammer. One person on the server....Now...fine and dandy, right? Well...you see...the guild that completed this on my server, refused to open the gate until they were paid by the rest of the server, horde and alliance alike.
That sounds like a top tier guild controling the server to me. And, as you can bet...the guilds with the best gear in WoW are guilds that raid, crafted and soloed epic items aren't nearly as good. The guilds that win in PvP constantly are guilds that raid constantly and are better geared (cause WoW is an item centric game) or have the 12 hours available each day to play Battle grounds long enough to achieve the top PvP rank.
WoW is not like that at all, because in WoW, the raid dungeons are instanced. Yes, you do have to be in a guild, or a coalition of guilds capable of raiding, to get the best gear in WoW. It's one of the reasons I left the game, in fact, because I don't enjoy raiding.
However, in a game with instanced ecounters, a raid guild can not stop anyone else from having access to the content. Anyone capable of gathering together 20 or 40 players can go to a raid instance and try it.
In a non instanced game, raid guilds can camp the encounters and block other people from having access to them. This isn't a theoretical situation; it is a situation that has occured and is occuring in every single MMO that has non instanced raid level ecounters.
In WoW, you need to be in -a- raid guild to access the raid content. In Vanguard, you will need to be in -the right- raid guild to have acecss to the content. That's a very important distinction.
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Raid Camping Issue: Solved.
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Raid Camping Issue: Solved.
And the advanced encounter system will also be used for resource gathering from dungeons for important crafting materials to make high end items? Harvestable resources are going to be controlled by the advanced encounter system?
And are the majority of all encounters which drop good items going to use the advanced encounter system? Everything I've read has strongly implied the advance encounter style encounters are relatively rare compared to the majority of the game content, if I am incorrect could you point me to better information?
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Raid Camping Issue: Solved.
And the advanced encounter system will also be used for resource gathering from dungeons for important crafting materials to make high end items? Harvestable resources are going to be controlled by the advanced encounter system?
And are the majority of all encounters which drop good items going to use the advanced encounter system? Everything I've read has strongly implied the advance encounter style encounters are relatively rare compared to the majority of the game content, if I am incorrect could you point me to better information?
Did it even minutely look like I was trying to hold the Advanced Encounter System accountable for fixing the problems of a games economy? No it doesn't.
The problem with predicting the economy of a game is three fold:
1) Economies are Player Driven, and it is too difficult to know what the economy will deem "important" before the game is launched, ie the demand of raid harvested materials.
2) The economy rests on the allure of the crafting system, and whether it is popular.
3) Effects on the game by unregulated outside sources.
The truth of the matter is however you or I think the economy will end up is beyond us to figure out, though we CAN speculate that if the economy is anything like WoWs it won't be a hinderance to casual players, because well...that game is "Casual Friendly" and has the same problem factors that you speculate Vanguard will have.
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Raid Camping Issue: Solved.
And the advanced encounter system will also be used for resource gathering from dungeons for important crafting materials to make high end items? Harvestable resources are going to be controlled by the advanced encounter system?
And are the majority of all encounters which drop good items going to use the advanced encounter system? Everything I've read has strongly implied the advance encounter style encounters are relatively rare compared to the majority of the game content, if I am incorrect could you point me to better information?
Did it even minutely look like I was trying to hold the Advanced Encounter System accountable for fixing the problems of a games economy? No it doesn't.
The problem with predicting the economy of a game is three fold:
1) Economies are Player Driven, and it is too difficult to know what the economy will deem "important" before the game is launched, ie the demand of raid harvested materials.
2) The economy rests on the allure of the crafting system, and whether it is popular.
3) Effects on the game by unregulated outside sources.
The truth of the matter is however you or I think the economy will end up is beyond us to figure out, though we CAN speculate that if the economy is anything like WoWs it won't be a hinderance to casual players, because well...that game is "Casual Friendly" and has the same problem factors that you speculate Vanguard will have.
First of all, I didn't say the advanced encounter system would "fix the games economy". Brad has stated that the materials necessary to craft "the good stuff" will be available in deep, dangerous, hard dungeons that will require the teamwork of fighters and harvesters to get to and harvest the materials. These dungeons are, as we've been discussing, not instanced. What mechanism is in place to keep large, organized guilds from camping those dungeons and completely monopolizing the supply of the crafting materials?
Second of all, you didn't answer my other question. Is there any information about what the break down is between advanced encounter system encounters, and standard encounters? You claimed the advanced encounter system was going to solve raid camping issues. From what I've read, it seems like Advanced Encounter System encounters are relatively rare, as far as game content goes. As I've said, I could be wrong, and I'm looking for more information.
Notice my ninja edit.
True it is instance...but you see...the Advanced Encounter System of Vanguard will do two things. 1) It will control the spawns of raid bosses for yoru group, and 2) When a raid boss spawns for your group, it is attackable only by your group.
Raid Camping Issue: Solved.
And the advanced encounter system will also be used for resource gathering from dungeons for important crafting materials to make high end items? Harvestable resources are going to be controlled by the advanced encounter system?
And are the majority of all encounters which drop good items going to use the advanced encounter system? Everything I've read has strongly implied the advance encounter style encounters are relatively rare compared to the majority of the game content, if I am incorrect could you point me to better information?
Did it even minutely look like I was trying to hold the Advanced Encounter System accountable for fixing the problems of a games economy? No it doesn't.
The problem with predicting the economy of a game is three fold:
1) Economies are Player Driven, and it is too difficult to know what the economy will deem "important" before the game is launched, ie the demand of raid harvested materials.
2) The economy rests on the allure of the crafting system, and whether it is popular.
3) Effects on the game by unregulated outside sources.
The truth of the matter is however you or I think the economy will end up is beyond us to figure out, though we CAN speculate that if the economy is anything like WoWs it won't be a hinderance to casual players, because well...that game is "Casual Friendly" and has the same problem factors that you speculate Vanguard will have.
First of all, I didn't say the advanced encounter system would "fix the games economy". Brad has stated that the materials necessary to craft "the good stuff" will be available in deep, dangerous, hard dungeons that will require the teamwork of fighters and harvesters to get to and harvest the materials. These dungeons are, as we've been discussing, not instanced. What mechanism is in place to keep large, organized guilds from camping those dungeons and completely monopolizing the supply of the crafting materials?
Second of all, you didn't answer my other question. Is there any information about what the break down is between advanced encounter system encounters, and standard encounters? You claimed the advanced encounter system was going to solve raid camping issues. From what I've read, it seems like Advanced Encounter System encounters are relatively rare, as far as game content goes. As I've said, I could be wrong, and I'm looking for more information.
There is nothing stoping them, This is what they want, this is who they cater to. Endless grindfest-no-life-having-uber-guilds-with-200+-people.
Camping of mobs and spots is "working as intended".
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My understanding is that the Advanced Encounter System (AES) is used for all raids and all group quests with great loot that in other MMOs (like WOW) would result in an instance. Basically, it is supposed to obviate any camping of uber named bosses that drop the uber loot.
Camping will still exist for named bosses mean for solo or small group encounters dropping craptacular loot for these 2nd class citizens.
Can I prove this or show any links? Can't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying that this is my impression of the system from what I've read in various places on the Vanguard boards and articles.
If your information about the ratio of ACS and non ACS is true, then that's good news at least. I still won't be playing the game, but I'm glad to see that Sigil is addressing some of these problems (assuming your information is accurate).
My understanding is that the Advanced Encounter System (AES) is used for all raids and all group quests with great loot that in other MMOs (like WOW) would result in an instance. Basically, it is supposed to obviate any camping of uber named bosses that drop the uber loot.
Camping will still exist for named bosses mean for solo or small group encounters dropping craptacular loot for these 2nd class citizens.
Can I prove this or show any links? Can't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying that this is my impression of the system from what I've read in various places on the Vanguard boards and articles.
Here's a quote from the Vanguard FAQ:
Now a little reading comprehension:
There are far fewer raid and dungeon "boss" encounters in the game than standard "trash mob" encounters. Therefore, unlocked encounters are in the vast minority. Yet...if you treck into a dungeon, with 6 people and you go all the way through you'll get your "Golden" Boss spawn just as I described.
Now if there were 100 bosses in the entire Vanguard universe....they'll most likely all be locked for you when you get to the end of their dungeon....now of corse, there may be 10,000 trash mobs that won't be locked....so, yes you were correct in saying they were using the locked encounter very seldomly...but they are locking the important ones...the ones you want to be locked.
My understanding is that the Advanced Encounter System (AES) is used for all raids and all group quests with great loot that in other MMOs (like WOW) would result in an instance. Basically, it is supposed to obviate any camping of uber named bosses that drop the uber loot.
Camping will still exist for named bosses mean for solo or small group encounters dropping craptacular loot for these 2nd class citizens.
Can I prove this or show any links? Can't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying that this is my impression of the system from what I've read in various places on the Vanguard boards and articles.
They did say that Soloers will probably not have encounter routes to the greatest extent, because the majority of the content being made for them isn't in a dungeon...but they will still be subject to Encounter flags and whatnot, meaning....you get a quest to kill a named mob....when you get close to where that named mob spawns, it will spawn for you and you alone, locked for you. You kill it...loot it, turn in quest.
Additionally...quests like these will be made so that you can't trivialize solo content by grouping...if you're in a group and trying to kill a soloable named mob...he may not spawn for you. (could be wrong, but I'm putting 1 and 1 togther about scaleable encounters)
And, just to satisfy you...Brad has said that "The Best" loot will be evenly spread between Solo, Group, Raiding, Crafting, and Diplomacy with Group content having a slightly bigger share. So...while a soloer doesn't like raiding but can stand grouping occasionally...he may get the Best Sword and best AC Chest, but won't get the Best Shield. And likewise, a Raider who hates soloing (like myself) Can get the Best Shield and the Best AC chest, but I'm not gonna get the Best Sword.
My understanding is that the Advanced Encounter System (AES) is used for all raids and all group quests with great loot that in other MMOs (like WOW) would result in an instance. Basically, it is supposed to obviate any camping of uber named bosses that drop the uber loot.
Camping will still exist for named bosses mean for solo or small group encounters dropping craptacular loot for these 2nd class citizens.
Can I prove this or show any links? Can't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying that this is my impression of the system from what I've read in various places on the Vanguard boards and articles.
They did say that Soloers will probably not have encounter routes to the greatest extent, because the majority of the content being made for them isn't in a dungeon...but they will still be subject to Encounter flags and whatnot, meaning....you get a quest to kill a named mob....when you get close to where that named mob spawns, it will spawn for you and you alone, locked for you. You kill it...loot it, turn in quest.
Additionally...quests like these will be made so that you can't trivialize solo content by grouping...if you're in a group and trying to kill a soloable named mob...he may not spawn for you. (could be wrong, but I'm putting 1 and 1 togther about scaleable encounters)
And, just to satisfy you...Brad has said that "The Best" loot will be evenly spread between Solo, Group, Raiding, Crafting, and Diplomacy with Group content having a slightly bigger share. So...while a soloer doesn't like raiding but can stand grouping occasionally...he may get the Best Sword and best AC Chest, but won't get the Best Shield. And likewise, a Raider who hates soloing (like myself) Can get the Best Shield and the Best AC chest, but I'm not gonna get the Best Sword.
I've never felt that Vanguard would be very friendly to solo players, so if it's not, it's not anything I'd be upset about. However, if the game does end up being small guild / group friendly, it's something I would consider trying out. My personal feeling is that the game will not be small guild / group friendly and that anyone who enjoys that play style will end up shut out of large portions of the game. In that case, I wouldn't play it because it's not for me. I don't have an issue with that, except that I don't want to see the game pushed as being solo / small group friendly in order to get more subscribers and then have it turn out that huge sections of the content are only available to "hardcore", large raid guilds.
I spent quite a bit of time in WoW only to have the rug pulled out from me, with everything in the game past Dire Maul designed exclusively for raiders, and raid instance after raid instance pushed out the door while vague promises about more small group content "soon" were meant to keep people who didn't enjoy raiding shelling out their monthly fee in the hopes they would get more content. In a game with no instances, the potential for the complete lock out of non "hardcore' players becomes magnified.
Well, the game is just that. The game is built to appeal to and satisfy people who's majority of play time is spent in groups of 3-6....and even then, the most people that will be in a raid will be about 25 people, and raid dungeons will allow you to semi-save your progress so that you can break the content up over a couple of days.
The designers are stressing that they are making the game with 60% of it's total content for groups between 3 and 6 people. Now this content isn't proportioned as WoWs is..where the Group content is between levels 1 and 59 and raids start at lvl 60. In Vanguard, you will be able to start raiding at early levels if you so wish... and in building the game in this fashion will notice that even at "End game" 60% of the Endgame Content will be for groups of 3 to 6. (20% solo and 20% Raiding)
Now does that mean that there are 2 raid encounters for every 6 group encounters? No...1 raid encounter takes up alot of time....So likely, it would take you 6 times the amount of time to expeirence all of the end game small group content as it would to experience the raiding content.
Edit:
Here is the key though: Just like Sigil doesn't want to piss off the soloers, they also don't want to piss off and ignore the raiders. So, I mean...obviously they would want to allow for raiding to be a viable style of play...but they realize (unlike MMOs to date, Blizzard is starting to figure this out now) that a balance needs to be struck and one playstyle can't dominate the others. WoW is so successful because it has a better balance than games that proceeded it....but...well...I just hope that Vanguard can do an even better job
The problems with grouping versus solo is not that the games have changed. Its that the people and the emphasis has changed.
Back in the old days we didn't have "DKPs" and "mandatory Ventrillo." We took people as they were, took chances, and roleplayed. It was easy to find groups back then and have fun, because we didn't organize our games, our friends, and our time there as a whole like a business investor or a professional sports team would. We never let the "business of playing" interfere with the play.
Times have changed though, and we have lost that ability to put the game in perspective. Now we have "PUG bashing," and "voice freezeouts." We have more excuses why we shouldn't group with this or that particular person, than why we should.
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However, because the game doesn't use the standard tank / healer / dps set up, there is no real loot, and there are no raids, it doesn't have any of the ridiculous business-like garbage that you outlined in your post. I log on, grab a few people for a group without worrying about their classes or what guild they're in or anything, and we go hit some missions and have a blast. The people (at least on the server I play on) are for the most part all very laid back and are just playing to have -fun-. You know, fun? That thing that most MMOs seem to have forgotten about lately.
However, because the game doesn't use the standard tank / healer / dps set up, there is no real loot, and there are no raids, it doesn't have any of the ridiculous business-like garbage that you outlined in your post. I log on, grab a few people for a group without worrying about their classes or what guild they're in or anything, and we go hit some missions and have a blast. The people (at least on the server I play on) are for the most part all very laid back and are just playing to have -fun-. You know, fun? That thing that most MMOs seem to have forgotten about lately.
My first MMO was CoH, actually....I played it for 5 months....and about a week after I hit lvl 50, I quit. The only thing that really keeps you interested in that game is making alts, and I already had like two at level 30 or so. =/
I bought WoW after that cause I was looking for more depth, something a lil' harder. And WoW satisfied me for about a year and a half or so. But then...the same thing happened. I've gotten bored and I know I need something with even MORE depth....something that is harder and has more avenues of advancement and a larger selection of classes.
Tried DAoC for...well...lets say it took me longer to download than I spent playing it. I can't stand games that have terrible UIs.
Tried DDO, played it for a month...the apparent depth from the adventures was quickly taken away when people started warning me of traps bore hand and pointing out the control boxes.
Tried EQII for a month....WoW + Crafting - Friends
So...meh...I'm reluctantly playing WoW again, figured I'd finish off my Nemesis set...give me something to do until the next big wave of MMOs comes out.
However, because the game doesn't use the standard tank / healer / dps set up, there is no real loot, and there are no raids, it doesn't have any of the ridiculous business-like garbage that you outlined in your post. I log on, grab a few people for a group without worrying about their classes or what guild they're in or anything, and we go hit some missions and have a blast. The people (at least on the server I play on) are for the most part all very laid back and are just playing to have -fun-. You know, fun? That thing that most MMOs seem to have forgotten about lately.
My first MMO was CoH, actually....I played it for 5 months....and about a week after I hit lvl 50, I quit. The only thing that really keeps you interested in that game is making alts, and I already had like two at level 30 or so. =/
I bought WoW after that cause I was looking for more depth, something a lil' harder. And WoW satisfied me for about a year and a half or so. But then...the same thing happened. I've gotten bored and I know I need something with even MORE depth....something that is harder and has more avenues of advancement and a larger selection of classes.
Tried DAoC for...well...lets say it took me longer to download than I spent playing it. I can't stand games that have terrible UIs.
Tried DDO, played it for a month...the apparent depth from the adventures was quickly taken away when people started warning me of traps bore hand and pointing out the control boxes.
Tried EQII for a month....WoW + Crafting - Friends
So...meh...I'm reluctantly playing WoW again, figured I'd finish off my Nemesis set...give me something to do until the next big wave of MMOs comes out.
is ur point that casual games don't hold your interest for very long? not sure if i understand what you're getting at here.
Just that with my MMO history, I've progressively been looking for games with more depth. WoW held my attention for a year and a half...if Vanguard pulls through and is what I think it is...I'll be addicted to that for much longer.
preCU swg had a lot of depth and was still VERY casual/solo friendly. the whole reason why there was such uproar about CU/NGE was that people like me played the game for so long and would have continued to play the game for many more years had they not instituted CU/NGE.
the fallacy of the vanguard community is that they mistakenly think that tedium, long grinds, annoying game mechanics, requiring groups to level up, sadomasochistic CRs, etc. are required to make the game interesting over a long period of time.
in swg, it was very solo friendly, the death penalty was light, there were no CRs (after a while), you had GPS maps, etc. etc. but there was still so much depth in the sandbox environment.
Just that with my MMO history, I've progressively been looking for games with more depth. WoW held my attention for a year and a half...if Vanguard pulls through and is what I think it is...I'll be addicted to that for much longer.
preCU swg had a lot of depth and was still VERY casual/solo friendly. the whole reason why there was such uproar about CU/NGE was that people like me played the game for so long and would have continued to play the game for many more years had they not instituted CU/NGE.
the fallacy of the vanguard community is that they mistakenly think that tedium, long grinds, annoying game mechanics, requiring groups to level up, sadomasochistic CRs, etc. are required to make the game interesting over a long period of time.
in swg, it was very solo friendly, the death penalty was light, there were no CRs (after a while), you had GPS maps, etc. etc. but there was still so much depth in the sandbox environment.
I think you misunderstand the Vanguard's community's reasoning behind wanting said mechanics....that to truely enjoy a game, it can't really pass you buy at break neck speed, and to truely appreciate your accomplishments in a game, you should have to break a sweat and toiled a while.
The primary problem with these casual games is that you can complete all of the Endgame and be extremely terrible at the game, which ultimately makes the people who are good at the game feel....well...like they've waisted their time and their accomplishments mean nothing.
Just that with my MMO history, I've progressively been looking for games with more depth. WoW held my attention for a year and a half...if Vanguard pulls through and is what I think it is...I'll be addicted to that for much longer.
preCU swg had a lot of depth and was still VERY casual/solo friendly. the whole reason why there was such uproar about CU/NGE was that people like me played the game for so long and would have continued to play the game for many more years had they not instituted CU/NGE.
the fallacy of the vanguard community is that they mistakenly think that tedium, long grinds, annoying game mechanics, requiring groups to level up, sadomasochistic CRs, etc. are required to make the game interesting over a long period of time.
in swg, it was very solo friendly, the death penalty was light, there were no CRs (after a while), you had GPS maps, etc. etc. but there was still so much depth in the sandbox environment.
I think you misunderstand the Vanguard's community's reasoning behind wanting said mechanics....that to truely enjoy a game, it can't really pass you buy at break neck speed, and to truely appreciate your accomplishments in a game, you should have to break a sweat and toiled a while.
The primary problem with these casual games is that you can complete all of the Endgame and be extremely terrible at the game, which ultimately makes the people who are good at the game feel....well...like they've waisted their time and their accomplishments mean nothing.
this perspective i find to be elitist and ultimately very sad. it's no wonder there's so much hate for the vanboi collective.