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What cash sinks are in this game?

MylonMylon Member Posts: 975
To my understanding there are quite a few cash faucets in the game, but what cash sinks are there?  Faucets include rats, missions, trading NPC goods, and insurance.

Sinks?  Well, clones.  The fees charged for putting items up for sale and/or talking to people.  Good bought from NPC traders (not a big one, given the ubiquity of PC crafters).  What others are there?


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Comments

  • freebirdpatfreebirdpat Member Posts: 568

    Biggest ISK sink I think is still when you lose a ship, you lose the modules.

  • KnightblastKnightblast Member Posts: 1,798
    The main ISK sinks are:

    1.  Tech 2 uninsurable ships, esp expensive ones like HACs, Recons, etc.

    2.  Expensive T2 mods like the T2 cloak, T2 missile launchers, etc.

    3.  HIgher level skillbooks.

    4.  Office rents.

    1 and 2 aren't technically "sinks" in that the funds are going into the NPC coffers, but they are "sinks" in terms of hitting players' wallets and forcing them to buy new ships/mods,. etc., thereby keeping the PC market for these items quite brisk.


  • Nu11u5Nu11u5 Member Posts: 597

    ISK "Faucets": NPC bounties, NPC mission payouts, insurance payouts, Rookie starter money, player purchases of NPC goods.

    ISK "Sinks": NPC taxes, insurance purchases, clone purchases, capital destruction (ships, modules, goods, implants), industry waste, contraband fines, office rents, Corp/Alliance startup fees, war fees, player sales to NPCs, deleted assets of quiting characters.

    A virtual ISK sink could be the fact that most player capital is idle. Most assets of players are in ships, modules, and other items (many times more than their actual currency), and only a fraction of this capital can be used at a time.

    //insert sig here
  • MylonMylon Member Posts: 975
    Lemme clarify: Capitial destruction (ships, modules, implants, whatever) do not count as ISK sinks.  These are resource sinks.  If these items (or the resources) are purchased from NPCs, then those purchases are ISK sinks, but capital destruction does not count.

    image

  • mindspatmindspat Member Posts: 1,367


    Originally posted by Mylon
    Lemme clarify: Capitial destruction (ships, modules, implants, whatever) do not count as ISK sinks.  These are resource sinks.  If these items (or the resources) are purchased from NPCs, then those purchases are ISK sinks, but capital destruction does not count.



    Untrue.

    If it is an asset it has value.  If it has value then there's a price assoicated with cost of ISK.  If there's a cost of ISK with your loss then it becomes a sink.

    Capital ships are built and/or purchased.  Either way there's an enormous amount of time spent in aquiring every single little thing associated with them from minning resources to skill books for the character creating them to the security involved in navigating these assets. 

    You try to telling a corporation that loses several capital ships that it's not an ISK sink.

  • RollinDutchRollinDutch Member Posts: 550


    Originally posted by mindspat

    Originally posted by Mylon
    Lemme clarify: Capitial destruction (ships, modules, implants, whatever) do not count as ISK sinks.  These are resource sinks.  If these items (or the resources) are purchased from NPCs, then those purchases are ISK sinks, but capital destruction does not count.


    Untrue.

    If it is an asset it has value.  If it has value then there's a price assoicated with cost of ISK.  If there's a cost of ISK with your loss then it becomes a sink.

    Capital ships are built and/or purchased.  Either way there's an enormous amount of time spent in aquiring every single little thing associated with them from minning resources to skill books for the character creating them to the security involved in navigating these assets. 

    You try to telling a corporation that loses several capital ships that it's not an ISK sink.




    Youre looking at it on a small scale, which is isk hits to players or corps. The discussion is about ISK sinks for the complete game economy. Right now, the main isk influx is NPC bounties, NPC trade runs, and Insurance. The main isk sinks are clones and purchases from NPCs. Purchases from NPCs are the main sink, as the newer t1 BPOs seeded to marked sell for billions, and quite a few of the newer skills have a 9-digit cost (or higher).

    The destruction of a captial ship actually increases the isk in the game, as the materials for that ship were either mined or purchased from other players (neither of which creates or destroys any isk), while upon destruction there is a large insurance payout which DOES create isk.
  • MinscMinsc Member UncommonPosts: 1,348


    Originally posted by RollinDutch

    Originally posted by mindspat

    Originally posted by Mylon
    Lemme clarify: Capitial destruction (ships, modules, implants, whatever) do not count as ISK sinks.  These are resource sinks.  If these items (or the resources) are purchased from NPCs, then those purchases are ISK sinks, but capital destruction does not count.


    Untrue.

    If it is an asset it has value.  If it has value then there's a price assoicated with cost of ISK.  If there's a cost of ISK with your loss then it becomes a sink.

    Capital ships are built and/or purchased.  Either way there's an enormous amount of time spent in aquiring every single little thing associated with them from minning resources to skill books for the character creating them to the security involved in navigating these assets. 

    You try to telling a corporation that loses several capital ships that it's not an ISK sink.




    Youre looking at it on a small scale, which is isk hits to players or corps. The discussion is about ISK sinks for the complete game economy. Right now, the main isk influx is NPC bounties, NPC trade runs, and Insurance. The main isk sinks are clones and purchases from NPCs. Purchases from NPCs are the main sink, as the newer t1 BPOs seeded to marked sell for billions, and quite a few of the newer skills have a 9-digit cost (or higher).

    The destruction of a captial ship actually increases the isk in the game, as the materials for that ship were either mined or purchased from other players (neither of which creates or destroys any isk), while upon destruction there is a large insurance payout which DOES create isk.


    With the newness of most of the capital ships, and the astronomical cost to insure them, the insurance payout is likely FAR less than the cost to build them, so that difference, plus the actual insurance payment, is a huge isk sink.
  • belonnabelonna Member Posts: 67

    well actually if you have a look at it then if you get the best insurance for wateva ship it is then estimated and intended market cost for wat eva ship it is

    ie i lately lost a ferox

    normal cost for a ferox on market: 24 mil

    platinum insurance payout for a lost ferox: 24 mil

    see

    Live, Breath, Cause. HaVoK

  • freebirdpatfreebirdpat Member Posts: 568

    Insurance is usually an outflux and not an influx of ISK. As you have to pay 30% of the cost of the ship just to get the highest payout of insurance.

    And by capital destruction, I think you mean the destruction of capital, ie goods, items. And some of the most costly items are mostly NPC controlled(skill books and tech1 BPOs).

    But yeah, when your ship blows up, you lose modules some of those could be player made or NPC controlled, player made can cost a pretty penny though.

  • MinscMinsc Member UncommonPosts: 1,348


    Originally posted by belonna

    well actually if you have a look at it then if you get the best insurance for wateva ship it is then estimated and intended market cost for wat eva ship it is
    ie i lately lost a ferox
    normal cost for a ferox on market: 24 mil
    platinum insurance payout for a lost ferox: 24 mil
    see


    You're still losing the 7 mill or so insurance cost on that deal, also I was talking about the capital ships themselves.

    when you buy one of the newer cap ships, say a carrier or a mothership, you will often be buying them for significalntly higher than their mineral value, even though that money is going to another player, they will likely stil be paying off the initial blueprint purchases so are not going to be making a lot of profit from the sale right now. On top of that you have to buy insurance which will likely pay out hundreds of millions less than what you paid for the cap ship in the first place, that difference exits the economy.
  • freebirdpatfreebirdpat Member Posts: 568


    Originally posted by Minsc

    Originally posted by belonna
    well actually if you have a look at it then if you get the best insurance for wateva ship it is then estimated and intended market cost for wat eva ship it is
    ie i lately lost a ferox
    normal cost for a ferox on market: 24 mil
    platinum insurance payout for a lost ferox: 24 mil
    see
    You're still losing the 7 mill or so insurance cost on that deal, also I was talking about the capital ships themselves. when you buy one of the newer cap ships, say a carrier or a mothership, you will often be buying them for significalntly higher than their mineral value, even though that money is going to another player, they will likely stil be paying off the initial blueprint purchases so are not going to be making a lot of profit from the sale right now. On top of that you have to buy insurance which will likely pay out hundreds of millions less than what you paid for the cap ship in the first place, that difference exits the economy.

    I think the only way to get insurance is to insure at a station, and cap ships do not dock....

    Anyhow insurance doesn't cover tech 2 ships which the insurance pays out much less for.

  • RollinDutchRollinDutch Member Posts: 550


    Originally posted by Minsc

    Originally posted by RollinDutch

    Originally posted by mindspat

    Originally posted by Mylon
    Lemme clarify: Capitial destruction (ships, modules, implants, whatever) do not count as ISK sinks.  These are resource sinks.  If these items (or the resources) are purchased from NPCs, then those purchases are ISK sinks, but capital destruction does not count.


    Untrue.

    If it is an asset it has value.  If it has value then there's a price assoicated with cost of ISK.  If there's a cost of ISK with your loss then it becomes a sink.

    Capital ships are built and/or purchased.  Either way there's an enormous amount of time spent in aquiring every single little thing associated with them from minning resources to skill books for the character creating them to the security involved in navigating these assets. 

    You try to telling a corporation that loses several capital ships that it's not an ISK sink.




    Youre looking at it on a small scale, which is isk hits to players or corps. The discussion is about ISK sinks for the complete game economy. Right now, the main isk influx is NPC bounties, NPC trade runs, and Insurance. The main isk sinks are clones and purchases from NPCs. Purchases from NPCs are the main sink, as the newer t1 BPOs seeded to marked sell for billions, and quite a few of the newer skills have a 9-digit cost (or higher).

    The destruction of a captial ship actually increases the isk in the game, as the materials for that ship were either mined or purchased from other players (neither of which creates or destroys any isk), while upon destruction there is a large insurance payout which DOES create isk.


    With the newness of most of the capital ships, and the astronomical cost to insure them, the insurance payout is likely FAR less than the cost to build them, so that difference, plus the actual insurance payment, is a huge isk sink.


    OK, this is not a hard concept. If you buy things from other players, the isk stays in the game universe. Someone else has it, but it still exists. Since NPCs do not sell minerals, nor do they sell finished capital ships, the isk that you spent to build that capital ship STILL EXISTS IN THE GAME UNIVERSE.

    If you buy something from an NPC, the isk is destroyed. It no longer exists in the game universe. Again, with the capital ship example, the purchase of ship/componant BPOs and the purchase of POS towers and anchorables are purchases from NPCs. In those transactions, isk is destroyed SO THAT IT NO LONGER EXISTS IN THE GAME UNIVERSE.

    If you are paid for missions, NPC bounties, Insurance, or if you sell something to an NPC, isk is created. It did not exist before and now it does.

    Insurance is a MASSIVE net influx of isk. The only possible way for insurance on a ship to be a net destruction of isk is if 2 or more 3-month insurance periods expire. The default 40% payment ensures that massive amounts of isk are created during ship destructions.


    Originally posted by freebirdpat

    Originally posted by Minsc

    Originally posted by belonna
    well
    actually if you have a look at it then if you get the best insurance
    for wateva ship it is then estimated and intended market cost for wat
    eva ship it is
    ie i lately lost a ferox
    normal cost for a ferox on market: 24 mil
    platinum insurance payout for a lost ferox: 24 mil
    see
    You're
    still losing the 7 mill or so insurance cost on that deal, also I was
    talking about the capital ships themselves. when you buy one of the
    newer cap ships, say a carrier or a mothership, you will often be
    buying them for significalntly higher than their mineral value, even
    though that money is going to another player, they will likely stil be
    paying off the initial blueprint purchases so are not going to be
    making a lot of profit from the sale right now. On top of that you have
    to buy insurance which will likely pay out hundreds of millions less
    than what you paid for the cap ship in the first place, that difference
    exits the economy.

    I think the only way to get insurance is to insure at a station, and cap ships do not dock....

    Anyhow insurance doesn't cover tech 2 ships which the insurance pays out much less for.


    No. Even if a capital ship is insured (which they will not be unless the pilot is remarkably incompetent), there will be a net gain in isk - either 40% for the default payment or 70% for the premium insurance. THIS IS ISK WHICH IS CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR.

    The isk that you spent on the ship went to other players. They may have used it to purchase things from NPCs, but that isnt relevant to the fact that WHEN YOUR SHIP WAS DESTROYED, THERE WAS A NET GAIN IN ISK IN THE GAME UNIVERSE AS A RESULT.
  • ChrisMatternChrisMattern Member Posts: 1,478


    Originally posted by Mylon
    Good bought from NPC traders (not a big one, given the ubiquity of PC crafters).

    Don't forget that you can't craft skillbooks; every one is bought from an NPC.

    Chris Mattern

  • MinscMinsc Member UncommonPosts: 1,348


    Originally posted by RollinDutch

    Originally posted by Minsc

    Originally posted by RollinDutch

    Originally posted by mindspat

    Originally posted by Mylon
    Lemme clarify: Capitial destruction (ships, modules, implants, whatever) do not count as ISK sinks.  These are resource sinks.  If these items (or the resources) are purchased from NPCs, then those purchases are ISK sinks, but capital destruction does not count.


    Untrue.

    If it is an asset it has value.  If it has value then there's a price assoicated with cost of ISK.  If there's a cost of ISK with your loss then it becomes a sink.

    Capital ships are built and/or purchased.  Either way there's an enormous amount of time spent in aquiring every single little thing associated with them from minning resources to skill books for the character creating them to the security involved in navigating these assets. 

    You try to telling a corporation that loses several capital ships that it's not an ISK sink.




    Youre looking at it on a small scale, which is isk hits to players or corps. The discussion is about ISK sinks for the complete game economy. Right now, the main isk influx is NPC bounties, NPC trade runs, and Insurance. The main isk sinks are clones and purchases from NPCs. Purchases from NPCs are the main sink, as the newer t1 BPOs seeded to marked sell for billions, and quite a few of the newer skills have a 9-digit cost (or higher).

    The destruction of a captial ship actually increases the isk in the game, as the materials for that ship were either mined or purchased from other players (neither of which creates or destroys any isk), while upon destruction there is a large insurance payout which DOES create isk.


    With the newness of most of the capital ships, and the astronomical cost to insure them, the insurance payout is likely FAR less than the cost to build them, so that difference, plus the actual insurance payment, is a huge isk sink.


    OK, this is not a hard concept. If you buy things from other players, the isk stays in the game universe. Someone else has it, but it still exists. Since NPCs do not sell minerals, nor do they sell finished capital ships, the isk that you spent to build that capital ship STILL EXISTS IN THE GAME UNIVERSE.

    If you buy something from an NPC, the isk is destroyed. It no longer exists in the game universe. Again, with the capital ship example, the purchase of ship/componant BPOs and the purchase of POS towers and anchorables are purchases from NPCs. In those transactions, isk is destroyed SO THAT IT NO LONGER EXISTS IN THE GAME UNIVERSE.

    If you are paid for missions, NPC bounties, Insurance, or if you sell something to an NPC, isk is created. It did not exist before and now it does.

    Insurance is a MASSIVE net influx of isk. The only possible way for insurance on a ship to be a net destruction of isk is if 2 or more 3-month insurance periods expire. The default 40% payment ensures that massive amounts of isk are created during ship destructions.


    Originally posted by freebirdpat

    Originally posted by Minsc

    Originally posted by belonna
    well
    actually if you have a look at it then if you get the best insurance
    for wateva ship it is then estimated and intended market cost for wat
    eva ship it is
    ie i lately lost a ferox
    normal cost for a ferox on market: 24 mil
    platinum insurance payout for a lost ferox: 24 mil
    see
    You're
    still losing the 7 mill or so insurance cost on that deal, also I was
    talking about the capital ships themselves. when you buy one of the
    newer cap ships, say a carrier or a mothership, you will often be
    buying them for significalntly higher than their mineral value, even
    though that money is going to another player, they will likely stil be
    paying off the initial blueprint purchases so are not going to be
    making a lot of profit from the sale right now. On top of that you have
    to buy insurance which will likely pay out hundreds of millions less
    than what you paid for the cap ship in the first place, that difference
    exits the economy.

    I think the only way to get insurance is to insure at a station, and cap ships do not dock....

    Anyhow insurance doesn't cover tech 2 ships which the insurance pays out much less for.


    No. Even if a capital ship is insured (which they will not be unless the pilot is remarkably incompetent), there will be a net gain in isk - either 40% for the default payment or 70% for the premium insurance. THIS IS ISK WHICH IS CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR.

    The isk that you spent on the ship went to other players. They may have used it to purchase things from NPCs, but that isnt relevant to the fact that WHEN YOUR SHIP WAS DESTROYED, THERE WAS A NET GAIN IN ISK IN THE GAME UNIVERSE AS A RESULT.


    I have several battleships that I've had to renew my insurance contracts numerous times on as well as other ships I fly, so for me at least, insurance is a massive isk sink.

    The economy in EVE is a closed system, there are a finite amount of resources available determined by the number of players in the game, with the massive influx of players over the last year we are likely still not even close to using up the available capital in the game, the isk sinks are designed to slow down the rate at which that is used and balance it. It's working fine in that respect. If it wasn't we would be seeing rediculous inflation of the games economy and that is definitely not happening.
  • SobaManSobaMan Member Posts: 384


    Originally posted by Minsc

    Originally posted by RollinDutch

    Originally posted by Minsc

    Originally posted by RollinDutch

    Originally posted by mindspat

    Originally posted by Mylon
    Lemme clarify: Capitial destruction (ships, modules, implants, whatever) do not count as ISK sinks.  These are resource sinks.  If these items (or the resources) are purchased from NPCs, then those purchases are ISK sinks, but capital destruction does not count.


    Untrue.

    If it is an asset it has value.  If it has value then there's a price assoicated with cost of ISK.  If there's a cost of ISK with your loss then it becomes a sink.

    Capital ships are built and/or purchased.  Either way there's an enormous amount of time spent in aquiring every single little thing associated with them from minning resources to skill books for the character creating them to the security involved in navigating these assets. 

    You try to telling a corporation that loses several capital ships that it's not an ISK sink.



    Youre looking at it on a small scale, which is isk hits to players or corps. The discussion is about ISK sinks for the complete game economy. Right now, the main isk influx is NPC bounties, NPC trade runs, and Insurance. The main isk sinks are clones and purchases from NPCs. Purchases from NPCs are the main sink, as the newer t1 BPOs seeded to marked sell for billions, and quite a few of the newer skills have a 9-digit cost (or higher).

    The destruction of a captial ship actually increases the isk in the game, as the materials for that ship were either mined or purchased from other players (neither of which creates or destroys any isk), while upon destruction there is a large insurance payout which DOES create isk.


    With the newness of most of the capital ships, and the astronomical cost to insure them, the insurance payout is likely FAR less than the cost to build them, so that difference, plus the actual insurance payment, is a huge isk sink.


    OK, this is not a hard concept. If you buy things from other players, the isk stays in the game universe. Someone else has it, but it still exists. Since NPCs do not sell minerals, nor do they sell finished capital ships, the isk that you spent to build that capital ship STILL EXISTS IN THE GAME UNIVERSE.

    If you buy something from an NPC, the isk is destroyed. It no longer exists in the game universe. Again, with the capital ship example, the purchase of ship/componant BPOs and the purchase of POS towers and anchorables are purchases from NPCs. In those transactions, isk is destroyed SO THAT IT NO LONGER EXISTS IN THE GAME UNIVERSE.

    If you are paid for missions, NPC bounties, Insurance, or if you sell something to an NPC, isk is created. It did not exist before and now it does.

    Insurance is a MASSIVE net influx of isk. The only possible way for insurance on a ship to be a net destruction of isk is if 2 or more 3-month insurance periods expire. The default 40% payment ensures that massive amounts of isk are created during ship destructions.


    Originally posted by freebirdpat

    Originally posted by Minsc

    Originally posted by belonna
    well actually if you have a look at it then if you get the best insurance for wateva ship it is then estimated and intended market cost for wat eva ship it is
    ie i lately lost a ferox
    normal cost for a ferox on market: 24 mil
    platinum insurance payout for a lost ferox: 24 mil
    see
    You're still losing the 7 mill or so insurance cost on that deal, also I was talking about the capital ships themselves. when you buy one of the newer cap ships, say a carrier or a mothership, you will often be buying them for significalntly higher than their mineral value, even though that money is going to another player, they will likely stil be paying off the initial blueprint purchases so are not going to be making a lot of profit from the sale right now. On top of that you have to buy insurance which will likely pay out hundreds of millions less than what you paid for the cap ship in the first place, that difference exits the economy.

    I think the only way to get insurance is to insure at a station, and cap ships do not dock....

    Anyhow insurance doesn't cover tech 2 ships which the insurance pays out much less for.


    No. Even if a capital ship is insured (which they will not be unless the pilot is remarkably incompetent), there will be a net gain in isk - either 40% for the default payment or 70% for the premium insurance. THIS IS ISK WHICH IS CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR.

    The isk that you spent on the ship went to other players. They may have used it to purchase things from NPCs, but that isnt relevant to the fact that WHEN YOUR SHIP WAS DESTROYED, THERE WAS A NET GAIN IN ISK IN THE GAME UNIVERSE AS A RESULT.


    I have several battleships that I've had to renew my insurance contracts numerous times on as well as other ships I fly, so for me at least, insurance is a massive isk sink.

    The economy in EVE is a closed system, there are a finite amount of resources available determined by the number of players in the game, with the massive influx of players over the last year we are likely still not even close to using up the available capital in the game, the isk sinks are designed to slow down the rate at which that is used and balance it. It's working fine in that respect. If it wasn't we would be seeing rediculous inflation of the games economy and that is definitely not happening.


    I generally only insure my Battleships completely once, minimally once, and then I just don't worry about it.  I'll get 30% to 40% back, and that will generally cover the high end minerals and some new modules.  After the third insurance payment though, the payout has simply equaled what you have paid for the ship.  There is no real point in insuring it again as you've technically just bought two battleships which you could've done and just used the default insurance payout to re-equip it.  Of course, that's just me...

    But, back on topic with insurance.   You can call it an ISK sink, and you would be correct because tons of players pay insurance, but never get blown up.  Also, it could be seen as an ISK faucet because (for me at least) lots of players can build a ship at a very minimal cost, insure it, and then blow it up only to wind up making ISK out of the deal.  I did that with Brutixes.  It cost me 5mil to make one, 7 mil to insure it, and when it blew up I would make around 20 mil in profit.  It really just depends on the pilot and the situation though.

    I would say that the biggest ISK sink in the game would be skill books.  The biggest ISK faucet in the game would be macro miners () cause they do lots of work, I steal it from them, refine it, and make a quick killing!

    We can agree to disagree, or we can bicker constantly... either way, I'm right.
    image
    SobaKai.com
    There are two types of people in this world - people that suck... and me.
  • Aetius73Aetius73 Member Posts: 1,257
    The money you have to put up as collateral for courier missions could be considered an isk sink in the event of failure.
  • RollinDutchRollinDutch Member Posts: 550


    Originally posted by Minsc

    I have several battleships that I've had to renew my insurance contracts numerous times on as well as other ships I fly, so for me at least, insurance is a massive isk sink.

    The economy in EVE is a closed system, there are a finite amount of resources available determined by the number of players in the game, with the massive influx of players over the last year we are likely still not even close to using up the available capital in the game, the isk sinks are designed to slow down the rate at which that is used and balance it. It's working fine in that respect. If it wasn't we would be seeing rediculous inflation of the games economy and that is definitely not happening.


    So, even though the difference between the premium net payout and the default net payout is 30% of the ships NPC value, and you dont lose ships often, youre still wasting money on insurance premiums? On a raven, the difference between insured and uninsured is literally less then 30m, which is 1-2 hours of work for anyone in the game who isnt brain-dead. The fact that you are doing something wildly illogical does not change the fact that Insurance is a MASSIVE isk generator.

    As for the economy being a closed system... no. If you happened to be around between Exodus and Cold War, you may have noticed something. That something was massive, large-scale inflation driven by 20m+/hour raven mission running in .5+ space. Fortunately, that was heavily nerfed, and the existance of new and significant isk sinks (expensive t1 BPOs, skills, and POS equipment) have brought the economy into line (and have actually caused a trend of minor deflation).
  • Lt.DeadendLt.Deadend Member Posts: 325

    Clones and Pos's,.I have dumped over 500 mill easy to npc for pos stuff and my clone is 10mill or so,. and when im pvping I may buy one a day.

    A cash sink in theory is cash lost to npc buyers,.But in Eve so dam much gets waisted that there is a whole new cash sink theory for eve and we dont have to worrie about prices sky rocketing.

    When i first started playing a Tear 2 BS was 88-94mill,.its has been slowly going up and then its go's down from time to time,for this day in age of eve-online a tear 2 BS is a  standard price of 105-118 mill depending.

    ever heard the saying the more you make the more you spend? If i work hard i can make 85mill in 6 hours.there was a time I dream of having a 100mill,and took me 3 weeks to buy my first BS.I may lose 1 or 2 a week now pvping,.70% of the cash i make is from other players pockets and i waist cash like crazy,IM the DAM cash sink lol.

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