I wonder why it is that the PvP community is so small yet so vocal and so able to get developers to cater to its needs? Personally I find PvP to be annoying more than anything else. Rather than fostering a true game community it often fragments it (PvPers in general are notoriously xenophobic), and the constant "Fight me!" demands are completely destructive to any sense of suspension of disbelief.
The only way I can see World PvP making sense in Tolkiens world.
1. Each Evil side character has a low level cap, and is approximately 1/5th as strong of the equvialent good side character.
2. Very limited classes, and skills.
3. You can only play the character at night or in dark places.
4. You have no free will, so you can only stay in certain areas. Moria, Mirkwood, etc. If venture outside of areas where evil has some influence, you instant die.
The problems with this is that people will no doubt complain about being too weak, and too bored because of the limits.
There should never been an opportunity for a level 50 Orc Burglar stealthing around the Shire ganking lowbies, it is just not lore appropriate.
Another person trying to use "Free will" as an anti-pvp method.
I seriously cant wait until PvP is the majority. it will come sooner then you think specially when people are standing around with thier l33T level capd characters complaining about how they have nothing to do. Happens in every PvE based game, then they implement the inevitable... a PvP system. Good for me they already announced PvP will be in this game at this point any pvp makes me happy.
Originally posted by xas_ Another person trying to use "Free will" as an anti-pvp method.
I seriously cant wait until PvP is the majority. it will come sooner then you think specially when people are standing around with thier l33T level capd characters complaining about how they have nothing to do. Happens in every PvE based game, then they implement the inevitable... a PvP system. Good for me they already announced PvP will be in this game at this point any pvp makes me happy.
Wrong. In every game I play, I choose PvP servers. I love good PvP. I was pointing out that everyone would complain about the restrictions that would have to be in place to make it so. Free Will is a big one, you won't be able to run around Bree, Rohan as you wished if you were evil. Hobbits were worried about wolves invading the shire, not orcs, trolls, and other evil races. Without the restrictions you aren't playing in the world that is similar to the world that Tolkien envisioned. If you aren't do that, then why bother making it LOTR in the first place.
Ive made a couple good points to flip it around to anti-pve lore.
- Hobbits are a race of peace and queit, but at launch thier will be 100+ hobbits running around adventuring and questing.
- What do PvE players expect to raid? obviously cant be sauron, witchking, shelob ect... what villians do you guys expect to be able to raid and kill?
- Human race is of weak will and easily corrupted by the darkness but yet you cant switch to an evil alliance.
- Quests... what do you think you will be able to contribute to the overall story or fellowship? the story has already been told.
Both PvE and PvP can be discriminated against the lore quite easily.
Now with that said, what PvP can bring to the immersion level of the game is without a doubt worth putting into the game, which it is, but to what extent?
Originally posted by xas_ Ive made a couple good points to flip it around to anti-pve lore.
- Hobbits are a race of peace and queit, but at launch thier will be 100+ hobbits running around adventuring and questing.
- What do PvE players expect to raid? obviously cant be sauron, witchking, shelob ect... what villians do you guys expect to be able to raid and kill?
- Human race is of weak will and easily corrupted by the darkness but yet you cant switch to an evil alliance.
- Quests... what do you think you will be able to contribute to the overall story or fellowship? the story has already been told.
Both PvE and PvP can be discriminated against the lore quite easily.
Now with that said, what PvP can bring to the immersion level of the game is without a doubt worth putting into the game, which it is, but to what extent?
Your first point about Hobbits is right on the money. It will have be one of those things many of us will have to pretend not to notice, which will be hard. Kinda like Jedi in SWG. Now a raid of orcs in the green dragon would be impossible to ignore.
Your PvE raid point. It is one of those things we will have to wait and see about. I would hope most people would be smart enough to realize they are not going to kill shelob, sauron, or even a balrog. The main bosses should be interesting, especially if it briefly mentioned somewhere in hobbit/lotr.
The Nine themselves were corrupted slowly. Men are definately more easily corrupted than dwarfs, and elves. I would not say that are easily corrupted tho.
The quest part, I have some concerns about. I don't want to interact with the fellowship at all Doing errands for Barliman type characters is ideal from my POV.
World PvP might have a lot more merit in the next 2 expansions, which is when it will likely be implemented. Which is a good thing, then it will be meaningful and a lot more appropriate.
i dont mind waiting for World PvP intil a later time, through expansions ect. but i do worry about players already establishing thierselves, then way later on being able to create evil characters but since they are so far into thier "good" character they wont want to switch hence resulting in 80 / 20 population imbalance. Although i still wouldnt mind it at all, this is probably why turbine is going to copy a WoW like battleground system. i guess nething is better than nothing but i would have really liked to see Turbine build this game from the ground up with PvP intentions in mind, specially with the points i made about the huge PVE disadvantages they hold.
well have to wait and see what thier master plan is i guess.
Just want to focus on one point. I think the term PvP is a little too broad. Hence we are seeing more specific terms like "World-pvp" and "battlegrounds", which are really different things. Then people end up debating the need for it, but the terms get muddled because pvp is too broad of a term.
imo, it's all about 'world-pvp'. The reason it's a big deal, is that it adds suspense and excitement to what is really a dull genre. For example, I see that mob pacing back and forth. If i hit it at the right time, it's friend who is 20 feet away will not see what i'm doing and i will not agro it. YAWN! I mean... BIG YAWN! It's amazing people exist that can play these pve only scenarios for as long as they do.
Now throw in world-pvp, and it's like this... i need to kill those panthers in north stv. Oh wait, was that some horde on the road? hmm... just one. better check it out. need these goblins... oh he moved away. (kill 3 goblins). Wander what that horde is doing? oh wow, he's is with a friend and they are picking on a lowbie. /t lowbie: omw. smack, dead horde. argh.. here come 3 more horde?! run to camp...any more of our guys around?
You are always 'looking over your shoulder'. Why? Because humans are unpredictable. Will they group and attack you? Will they run away? Ignore you? Kill you when you are weak? Attack and destroy your town or buildings?
Now consider 'battleground-pvp'. Battleground pvp is like a little mini "game" that people choose to go into. It makes for more interesting fights, because humans are unpredictable and will use different tactics. But all in all, BGs are really close to what you get in CSS or UT (online fps games). Personally, i don't see battlegrounds as being the good kind of pvp that adds content/suspense/feel to a game. It's nice and ok, but it's not the point imo. (Personally, this is one of the reasons i quit WoW. At first, we had world-pvp, wild brawls in BB, etc. it was a blast. Then came BGs, then came BG-rewards, which turned it into a 'grind-room', and finally, blizz started penalizing people for killing NPCs in enemy towns????).
Anyway, it's all about SUSPENSE imo. Humans add suspense. AI is just nowhere near where it needs to be to create an immsersive suspenseful world. PvP in an MMO is just one more way to increase immersion. Any MMO in the post-wow world that does not have "world-pvp" will flop imo. No matter how good the story, the graphics, and all that. If gameplay is essentially YOU vs. Computer-AI... then it will eventually grow dull and loose subscriptions... and evetually die.
and thats fine for the first year, but when people start hitting level cap and raiding isnt enough to fulfill thier time with then subscriptions drop rapidly. specially with Warhammer coming out 6 months or so after this, i see alot of people switching to try it. i know i personally cant wait for it.
the fact is the majority of players whom want PvE and lots of quest content are the ones who dont hit level cap. or if they do it takes them 2-3x longer then everyone else.
usually its because they are 30+ and have fulltime jobs and thats fine. but another large portion of players are the college or highschool kids, like myself who only goes to college i got more time for games so a pve game with minimum pvp is just another WoW to me. raiding doesnt become the timesink it needs to be hence why pvp is a must for me and other players that share same views as myself.
pvp is so important for endgame and i dont think LOTRO will have a large enough timesink/fun factor to keep me playing. i see myself playing Warhammer which is 70% RvR 30% pve if that. but thats just my opinion
I still fail to grasp why you'd come to this forum to tell everyone how this game should be even though you have no plans of sticking with it. You speak in such broad general terms about majorities and minorities. It's like you got your thumb on the pulse of the player community.
It's hard to put any weight into your opinions past them being opinions. Plus, if you have been around playing mmo's for the last 9 years....how come you only signed up here this july? I'd figure if you were such a veteran you'd have an older account than me. But you don't and yet you started off a few threads w/ some seriously negative tones towards people who don't agree with you. Not to mention you already hinted at how respectable your communication can be in another thread. Something about being banned in a certain game's forums?
I personally don't disagree too much w/ having PvP in a game. But I don't think every game needs to cater towards people who are just there to kill some time until some other game comes out.
I do have an older account but this is the alias i use in MMOs so i switched. I got banned before Lord of the RIngs online was even LOTRO... it was Middle earth online and thats because i made posts flamming the devs for not building this game around Good vs Evil character conflict, at that time they announced "No pvp"... it pissed me off. now look they change thier mind a few months before release... maybe i should get an unban because i was right.
my opinions are just opinions i dont really care if people agree with me or not, i believe i make strong arguments on the benefits of what pvp brings to an END-GAME. Ive already stated that i enjoy PvE, i dont mind raiding as long as i dont have to center my life around it, by either weekly or daily activities that make me "dedicated" to a large party. The problem mr grumpybear is that when a player hits level cap he can either Craft, Farm, Raid. with that said raids are most likely 2-3 times a week and for a player like me who plays a couple hours everyday. WTF am i suppose to do? i dont want to make alts, i dont want to craft, and i sure as hell dont want to quest. that leaves me with raiding and exploring hence why i said ill probably be bored with this game after the first year and move on, depending on how well they implement pvp.
I really do see myself playing Warhammer when it comes out, because this game is cattered around and for players who just are not my style of gamers... i dont like to roleplay, i hate questing and im not a fan of grinding, but i am a huge tolkien fan and this game should offer players like me a way to have fun too. whiether its pvp server and normal servers to instances... well see what they do.
The truth is i dont see this game having a fun end-game, and i seriously doubt that you have achieved endgame status in MMO's unless you want to count WoW, and the 2 weeks it takes. Any veteran of MMOs agrees with me that SOME form of pvp is a must for Endgame. But like i said Warhammer comes out 1 year after LOTRO, i will try this game, hit lvl cap and see how well the DEVS did at creating end-game content... because if its only pointless quests and a raid now and then they are going to have a bunch of bored players on thier hands
Comments
The only way I can see World PvP making sense in Tolkiens world.
1. Each Evil side character has a low level cap, and is approximately 1/5th as strong of the equvialent good side character.
2. Very limited classes, and skills.
3. You can only play the character at night or in dark places.
4. You have no free will, so you can only stay in certain areas. Moria, Mirkwood, etc. If venture outside of areas where evil has some influence, you instant die.
The problems with this is that people will no doubt complain about being too weak, and too bored because of the limits.
There should never been an opportunity for a level 50 Orc Burglar stealthing around the Shire ganking lowbies, it is just not lore appropriate.
I seriously cant wait until PvP is the majority. it will come sooner then you think specially when people are standing around with thier l33T level capd characters complaining about how they have nothing to do. Happens in every PvE based game, then they implement the inevitable... a PvP system. Good for me they already announced PvP will be in this game
- Hobbits are a race of peace and queit, but at launch thier will be 100+ hobbits running around adventuring and questing.
- What do PvE players expect to raid? obviously cant be sauron, witchking, shelob ect... what villians do you guys expect to be able to raid and kill?
- Human race is of weak will and easily corrupted by the darkness but yet you cant switch to an evil alliance.
- Quests... what do you think you will be able to contribute to the overall story or fellowship? the story has already been told.
Both PvE and PvP can be discriminated against the lore quite easily.
Now with that said, what PvP can bring to the immersion level of the game is without a doubt worth putting into the game, which it is, but to what extent?
Your first point about Hobbits is right on the money. It will have be one of those things many of us will have to pretend not to notice, which will be hard. Kinda like Jedi in SWG. Now a raid of orcs in the green dragon would be impossible to ignore.
Your PvE raid point. It is one of those things we will have to wait and see about. I would hope most people would be smart enough to realize they are not going to kill shelob, sauron, or even a balrog. The main bosses should be interesting, especially if it briefly mentioned somewhere in hobbit/lotr.
The Nine themselves were corrupted slowly. Men are definately more easily corrupted than dwarfs, and elves. I would not say that are easily corrupted tho.
The quest part, I have some concerns about. I don't want to interact with the fellowship at all Doing errands for Barliman type characters is ideal from my POV.
World PvP might have a lot more merit in the next 2 expansions, which is when it will likely be implemented. Which is a good thing, then it will be meaningful and a lot more appropriate.
i dont mind waiting for World PvP intil a later time, through expansions ect. but i do worry about players already establishing thierselves, then way later on being able to create evil characters but since they are so far into thier "good" character they wont want to switch hence resulting in 80 / 20 population imbalance.
Although i still wouldnt mind it at all, this is probably why turbine is going to copy a WoW like battleground system.
i guess nething is better than nothing but i would have really liked to see Turbine build this game from the ground up with PvP intentions in mind, specially with the points i made about the huge PVE disadvantages they hold.
well have to wait and see what thier master plan is i guess.
Just want to focus on one point. I think the term PvP is a little too broad. Hence we are seeing more specific terms like "World-pvp" and "battlegrounds", which are really different things. Then people end up debating the need for it, but the terms get muddled because pvp is too broad of a term.
imo, it's all about 'world-pvp'. The reason it's a big deal, is that it adds suspense and excitement to what is really a dull genre. For example, I see that mob pacing back and forth. If i hit it at the right time, it's friend who is 20 feet away will not see what i'm doing and i will not agro it. YAWN! I mean... BIG YAWN! It's amazing people exist that can play these pve only scenarios for as long as they do.
Now throw in world-pvp, and it's like this... i need to kill those panthers in north stv. Oh wait, was that some horde on the road? hmm... just one. better check it out. need these goblins... oh he moved away. (kill 3 goblins). Wander what that horde is doing? oh wow, he's is with a friend and they are picking on a lowbie. /t lowbie: omw. smack, dead horde. argh.. here come 3 more horde?! run to camp...any more of our guys around?
You are always 'looking over your shoulder'. Why? Because humans are unpredictable. Will they group and attack you? Will they run away? Ignore you? Kill you when you are weak? Attack and destroy your town or buildings?
Now consider 'battleground-pvp'. Battleground pvp is like a little mini "game" that people choose to go into. It makes for more interesting fights, because humans are unpredictable and will use different tactics. But all in all, BGs are really close to what you get in CSS or UT (online fps games). Personally, i don't see battlegrounds as being the good kind of pvp that adds content/suspense/feel to a game. It's nice and ok, but it's not the point imo. (Personally, this is one of the reasons i quit WoW. At first, we had world-pvp, wild brawls in BB, etc. it was a blast. Then came BGs, then came BG-rewards, which turned it into a 'grind-room', and finally, blizz started penalizing people for killing NPCs in enemy towns????).
Anyway, it's all about SUSPENSE imo. Humans add suspense. AI is just nowhere near where it needs to be to create an immsersive suspenseful world. PvP in an MMO is just one more way to increase immersion. Any MMO in the post-wow world that does not have "world-pvp" will flop imo. No matter how good the story, the graphics, and all that. If gameplay is essentially YOU vs. Computer-AI... then it will eventually grow dull and loose subscriptions... and evetually die.
Theres nothing wrong with no PvP.
I know from warcraft, alot of people complain cuz they get ganked
Well think of this as a gank free game.
usually its because they are 30+ and have fulltime jobs and thats fine. but another large portion of players are the college or highschool kids, like myself who only goes to college i got more time for games so a pve game with minimum pvp is just another WoW to me. raiding doesnt become the timesink it needs to be hence why pvp is a must for me and other players that share same views as myself.
pvp is so important for endgame and i dont think LOTRO will have a large enough timesink/fun factor to keep me playing. i see myself playing Warhammer which is 70% RvR 30% pve if that. but thats just my opinion
It's hard to put any weight into your opinions past them being opinions. Plus, if you have been around playing mmo's for the last 9 years....how come you only signed up here this july? I'd figure if you were such a veteran you'd have an older account than me. But you don't and yet you started off a few threads w/ some seriously negative tones towards people who don't agree with you. Not to mention you already hinted at how respectable your communication can be in another thread. Something about being banned in a certain game's forums?
I personally don't disagree too much w/ having PvP in a game. But I don't think every game needs to cater towards people who are just there to kill some time until some other game comes out.
I do have an older account but this is the alias i use in MMOs so i switched. I got banned before Lord of the RIngs online was even LOTRO... it was Middle earth online and thats because i made posts flamming the devs for not building this game around Good vs Evil character conflict, at that time they announced "No pvp"... it pissed me off.
now look they change thier mind a few months before release... maybe i should get an unban because i was right.
my opinions are just opinions i dont really care if people agree with me or not, i believe i make strong arguments on the benefits of what pvp brings to an END-GAME. Ive already stated that i enjoy PvE, i dont mind raiding as long as i dont have to center my life around it, by either weekly or daily activities that make me "dedicated" to a large party. The problem mr grumpybear is that when a player hits level cap he can either Craft, Farm, Raid.
with that said raids are most likely 2-3 times a week and for a player like me who plays a couple hours everyday. WTF am i suppose to do? i dont want to make alts, i dont want to craft, and i sure as hell dont want to quest.
that leaves me with raiding and exploring hence why i said ill probably be bored with this game after the first year and move on, depending on how well they implement pvp.
I really do see myself playing Warhammer when it comes out, because this game is cattered around and for players who just are not my style of gamers... i dont like to roleplay, i hate questing and im not a fan of grinding, but i am a huge tolkien fan and this game should offer players like me a way to have fun too. whiether its pvp server and normal servers to instances... well see what they do.
The truth is i dont see this game having a fun end-game, and i seriously doubt that you have achieved endgame status in MMO's unless you want to count WoW, and the 2 weeks it takes. Any veteran of MMOs agrees with me that SOME form of pvp is a must for Endgame. But like i said Warhammer comes out 1 year after LOTRO, i will try this game, hit lvl cap and see how well the DEVS did at creating end-game content... because if its only pointless quests and a raid now and then they are going to have a bunch of bored players on thier hands