Well UO actually might have been growing for the first 1.5yrs mainly because it was a new concept. I would really like to see the subs in the first year compared to the amount of retail boxes sold. Where your point fails, is that they announced they were going to solve the griefing problem and the unconcentual pvp problem. So people stuck around. Coincidently right after trammel was released UO actually had its highest growth rate. Keep in mind this is when all the griefers were quiting, yet still UO had unprecedented growth.
You can dream in fantasy land all you want. But its perfectly clear to everyone that PreTrammel UO was a mess. If it was so great then there would be 40 SP shards. Instead they cant even fill 1 SP shard. Every game that has had servers with rules similiar to UO pretrammel have all failed. Games with rulesets like Post-Trammel have hugely succeeded. Not only that but no game in any other industry has succeeded with pretrammel rulesets. All the evidence says you are wrong, number one being that UO shards with trammel rulesets all are successes. Shards with pretrammel rules are failures.
You forget that at the beginning of UO the internet was still in its baby phase.
I remember even 1 year after uo was released in europa to have to pay per MINUTE, that was when T2A was out.
Yes UO grew then, but had a HUGE turn over rate those days and when decent competition came up Uo was surpassed in months.
And I still play UO 8 years after that and can say that not Trammel made the decline, but EA abandoning the customers with no real events or taking with them so long that you could quit 4 months, to return and get to the next story arc....
Griefing in UO is a chapter for itself, as I helped with a roleplay tavern in Felucca and being camped by bored pks was certainly not fun and Trammel made it lots easier to play your playstyle.
UO was/is good at killing itself by eliminating playstyles en masse.
I want to know how long you actually played the game Brainy. It seems all of your opinions indicate you bought the game, tried to do some mining, got pked, got frustrated, and then quit within the same day . Please be aware that not everyone is a pussy such as yourself. There's no need for you to constantly dispute the popularity of pvp in UO.
Well its not a surprise to me that your theory is completely wrong. I owned the game for about 6-7yrs, played for about 3-4yrs. I started the game when it was released. My toon was likely the richest on the shard. I had 5 castle, large towers, blue houses all on one account. I had more money in that game then I could deal with. I pvped mostly. Only time I actually went to trammel was to shop at vendors that were there, because all my houses were on Felluca side. I pvped all the time. Usually when I wanted to kill reds all I had to do was hang out at any newb area outside town. I was present at many of the weekly pvp tournaments on our shard. When factions was released I partcipated in that, and had so much silver it was pathetic. I sold my account after 7yrs for almost 1k USD. I was offered 2k for my account 4yrs prior but didnt sell.
I am not saying pvp wasnt exactly popular. I am saying anyone who supports non concentual pvp is a griefer. There is no other reason to support non-concentual pvp otherwise. There are plenty of concentual pvp games. All the most popular pvp games are concentual. FFA pvp servers are unpopular, its a proven fact. UO was non-concentual and was losing tons of subs even though it was the only MMO on the market. As soon as they gave players a choice they overwhelming picked concentual pvp.
Well its not a surprise to me that your theory is completely wrong. I owned the game for about 6-7yrs, played for about 3-4yrs. I started the game when it was released. My toon was likely the richest on the shard. I had 5 castle, large towers, blue houses all on one account. I had more money in that game then I could deal with. I pvped mostly. Only time I actually went to trammel was to shop at vendors that were there, because all my houses were on Felluca side. I pvped all the time. Usually when I wanted to kill reds all I had to do was hang out at any newb area outside town. I was present at many of the weekly pvp tournaments on our shard. When factions was released I partcipated in that, and had so much silver it was pathetic. I sold my account after 7yrs for almost 1k USD. I was offered 2k for my account 4yrs prior but didnt sell. I am not saying pvp wasnt exactly popular. I am saying anyone who supports non concentual pvp is a griefer. There is no other reason to support non-concentual pvp otherwise. There are plenty of concentual pvp games. All the most popular pvp games are concentual. FFA pvp servers are unpopular, its a proven fact. UO was non-concentual and was losing tons of subs even though it was the only MMO on the market. As soon as they gave players a choice they overwhelming picked concentual pvp.
The game quit growing because of the increasing release of other games (Star Wars, DAoC, etc.).
Initially UO had no competiton. Then only EQ for a while.
Trammel brought some people to the game that didn't like non-consensual pvp. Some pvpers left because they couldn't kill the noobs like they did before. The game was still growing for many months.
But the slowed down and stopped. But the numbers kept at a level for roughly 4 years after Trammel.
It only declined when the devs decided to bring out new 'expansions' rather than fix what was there. They also allowed the game economy to go awry (different subject altogether).
In the end though, it's a slightly enhanced 9 year old game. KR may bring a bit of life back into it - especially if the macroing features are significant. In the end though, the game needs a proper 3D environment to compete with every other game. If it had that I think it would be great once again. People don't need good graphics but it helps involve the player into the world. UO is a game now rather than the 'experience' we once felt, and which you can get (at least initially) with the new 'eye candy' in games like LotRO, and dozens of others.
Actually, it's a widely spread misconception that UO had no competition, partly due to some MMOGs not being included on mmogchart.com, but mostly due to thinking that UO had no competition because it was one of the first MMOGs released that eventually grew into one of the larger 100k+ MMOGs.
Everquest was released on March 16, 1999 and grew to 225,000 subscriptions before Trammel was released. Asheron's Call, released October 31, 1999, grew to 85,000 competitive subscriptions before Trammel was released. The Realm Online, which was released December 31, 1996, nine months before Ultima Online, grew to 25,862 subscriptions in May of 1999. Meridian 59, one of the first MMOGs, released September 27, 1996 had more than 25,000 beta testers and is still going today.
So as you can see, Ultima Online was not even the third significant MMOG released. The Realm Online, which grew to over 25,000 subscriptions is not to be ignored, nor is Meridian 59’s 25,000 beta testers at release. Those are significant numbers even for many MMOGs today. However, comparatively, it was a much greater amount, when MMOGs were still new. Ultima Online had 50,000 four months after release, a time when The Realm Online was competing with 25,000.
While we don't know how many of Meridian 59’s 25,000 beta testers were converted to paying subscribers, even with the other games, The Realm Online, Everquest and Asheron's Call, there were at least 335,000 competitive MMOG subscriptions to Ultima Online's 185,000 before the release of Trammel. UO did in fact have significant competition while it was a non-consensual game. And, yet, how did this non-consensual PvP Ultima Online perform, even with all this competition? It continued to grow at approximately the same rate as it had since release, most likely because it was offering something unique. Once Ultima Online changed to a consensual format with Trammel, it began competing directly with the other better consensual games like Everyquest.
Actually, it's a widely spread misconception that UO had no competition, partly due to some MMOGs not being included on mmogchart.com, but mostly due to thinking that UO had no competition because it was one of the first MMOGs released that eventually grew into one of the larger 100k+ MMOGs. Everquest was released on March 16, 1999 and grew to 225,000 subscriptions before Trammel was released. Asheron's Call, released October 31, 1999, grew to 85,000 competitive subscriptions before Trammel was released. The Realm Online, which was released December 31, 1996, nine months before Ultima Online, grew to 25,862 subscriptions in May of 1999. Meridian 59, one of the first MMOGs, released September 27, 1996 had more than 25,000 beta testers and is still going today. Ultima Online was not the first MMOG released. The Realm Online, which grew to over 25,000 subscriptions is not to be ignored, nor is Meridian 59’s 25,000 beta testers at release. Those are significant numbers even for many MMOGs today. However, comparatively, it was a much greater amount, when MMOGs were still new. Ultima Online had 50,000 four months after release, a time when The Realm Online was competing with 25,000. While we don't know how many of Meridian 59’s 25,000 beta testers were converted to paying subscribers, even with the other games, The Realm Online, Everquest and Asheron's Call, there were at least 335,000 competitive MMOG subscriptions to Ultima Online's 185,000 before the release of Trammel. UO did in fact have significant competition while it was a non-consensual game. And, yet, how did this non-consensual PvP Ultima Online perform, even with all this competition? It continued to grow at approximately the same rate as it had since release, most likely because it was offering something unique. Once Ultima Online changed to a consensual format with Trammel, it began competing directly with the other better consensual games like Everyquest.
And you cant help wondering how it would have fared by sticking to its niche position as the most challenging MMO ever released (still!!) Rather than caving in to notions of peace and love....
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Half my brain tells me UO was better with just FEL and the other half tells me it's just as good. But without a doubt it definetly isnt better now.
Back when I first started playing my pops trained up a red for me and I must confess I used to drobe you until you logged off. But then within 2 weeks everyone knew my characters name and I was alot of the times KOS. You see thats why I think it was better back then because after that happened I had to make another character and train him again and I couldn't be jerk in this online world. They could easily deal with you if you made a bad name for yourself. But soon after I found out about the thief. So hey I can play with my playstyle being a jerk. Games these days aim for the Hardcore Gamer, Core gamer, and casual player. UO had it all you wanted hardcore you made a red, if you wanted core you did T hunts, casual you mined and crafted (and made alot of money from it back then aswell might I add) Along with that you had a PvP society since just like in south la shit can go down in any sec!
But after I start to think about how it is now. I like it alot. I can PvP when I want PvE wihtout worring about a players name poping up in my journal. And now if you want insane PvP you can do a champ spawn and defend it. The only thing wrong with the current UO is the items. You can get so many different artifacts but most of them are trash. Well that and factions, virtues, races, tokuno being worthless, race only armor, crafting ( imagine if they redid the prop for every artifact in game and let crafters have a lower intensity raiting but let them choose the mods). I think if they fixed that and with their new 3d client UO would bring back alot of new players. Because all they have to do is polish up what they got and the game would be fun again.
Overall this thread is teh gay get out of the past already seriously I am starting to wonder if you pre tram guys have mental problems or something.
Overall this thread is teh gay get out of the past already seriously I am starting to wonder if you pre tram guys have mental problems or something.
I can only speak for myself in saying.... on this topic... I do
+-+-+-+-+-+ "MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol" http://purepwnage.com -+-+-+-+-+-+ "Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it, bryanA.
I enjoyed UO more than any other MMOG or even computer game ever (with the exception of Alternate Reality: The City), but that was back when Ultima Online was rated "M" for mature, you had to ride normal tan colored horses to get around, which had to be either purchased at a stable or tamed, steel and leather armor looked and functioned like steel and leather armor and you could chop off the head of a murderer, and turn it in to town guards for a bounty reward. Ultima Online has done a 180, the phase has just been complete with this past Christmas' cute holiday gifts shown below, but most the damage was done long, long ago in lands far far away from dojos full of flipflop wearing Ninjas and treehuts scattered with sunglass wearing Elves.
I would say current Ultima Online is definately "teh gay" dood:
Everquest was released on March 16, 1999 and grew to 225,000 subscriptions before Trammel was released. Asheron's Call, released October 31, 1999, grew to 85,000 competitive subscriptions before Trammel was released.
See its right here that you pour your entire arguement down the drain. If UO was so popular before Trammel release then why did EQ have more customers 6 months of its release? The problem here is that if UO would have had trammel day 1. Then it would be UO not EQ that was on top of subscribers. With trammel EQ would not have been able to compete.
It was EQ's success that forced UO to change, just to hold on to its subscriber base. It worked also. All those PVPers that quit because of trammel, umm what game did they go to EQ? A completely non PVP game.
Sorry but just another set of facts that proves the UO went the correct way with trammel. It should have done it sooner and it would have been a top game today. Instead of a billion EQ clones we would have had UO clones today. Instead because UO screwed up on day one with not fixing the griefing problem, all the games today are carebear EQ clones.
We've been hearing this same arguement since we lost FFA! Why must we keep bringing it up and bumping/creating pointless threads? Until someone invents a time machine WE WILL NEVER GET OLDSKOOL UO BACK! So, why even post this crap?
See its right here that you pour your entire arguement down the drain. If UO was so popular before Trammel release then why did EQ have more customers 6 months of its release? The problem here is that if UO would have had trammel day 1. Then it would be UO not EQ that was on top of subscribers. With trammel EQ would not have been able to compete. It was EQ's success that forced UO to change, just to hold on to its subscriber base. It worked also. All those PVPers that quit because of trammel, umm what game did they go to EQ? A completely non PVP game. Sorry but just another set of facts that proves the UO went the correct way with trammel. It should have done it sooner and it would have been a top game today. Instead of a billion EQ clones we would have had UO clones today. Instead because UO screwed up on day one with not fixing the griefing problem, all the games today are carebear EQ clones.
EQ had more customers due to better marketing, better graphics and a more dumbed down game, but what is important is that the non-consensual Ultima Online also had a consistent and steady rate of growth with very little advertising. Even if the rate of growth was not as fast, it was solid and consistent, at least until less than a year after UO went consensual. Since then, Ultima Online has not had any lasting growth for seven years. Yes, seven years of no growth as a consensual game competing with better consensual games. No kidding.
EQ did not force UO to change, UO was entirely successful as a non-consensual game, growing to 185,000 subscriptions. What most likely happened is that EA tried to copy EQ's success and as a result shot themselves in the foot by putting themselves in competition with the better, prettier consensual EQ game.
"Sorry but just another set of facts that proves the UO went the correct way with trammel. It should have done it sooner and it would have been a top game today." You are so ignorant Brainy. Show me the success of Trammel. Where did UO's numbers take off once Trammel was implemented? Never. They continued at about the same rate of growth after Trammel was released and then within a year the game began dying. You don't know what a fact is.
Pointless, pointless, pointless! We've been hearing this same arguement since we lost FFA! Why must we keep bringing it up and bumping/creating pointless threads? Until someone invents a time machine WE WILL NEVER GET OLDSKOOL UO BACK! So, why even post this crap? Can't we just talk about the game as it is?
Yes you are correct. The problem why this wont happen is you will always have the people that refuse to look at the overall facts. The stick to one single thing that they think proves thier point and thats all the evidence they want to hear. Then as soon as a developer gives them exactly what they want and it fails miserably. Then they complain about how its the developers fault, if only you raised it 2% instead of 1% percent. Then it would have been a huge success. Always this huge success is just barely out of reach. Meanwhile other games like WoW, EQ, SWG, DAOC, Counterstrike, Gears of War, Diablo are running away with HUGE successes and making less then perfect games, yet they seem to be rolling in the cash.
What needs to happen is Developers need to say in public, just like MYthic DAOC/Warhammer did, and say that they will never have FFA PVP or Full Looting. They gave them a shot once with 2 servers in DAOC, they were an absolute embarassment. The only server that had to close down because of no population was an FFA PVP Server. The remaining FFA PVP server is a disgrace. The biggest whiners are sitting on the FFA PVP server begging for players to play on thier server. Now they want to merge thier server with all the rest, LOL but no other servers want them.
Warhammer was right to tell them they will never be welcome in warhammer game and they would never see FFA PVP or Full Looting there. That way this group congregates to one game like Darkfall. Then they can sit on the darkfall boards and ask, I wonder why no investors will actually fund Darkfall so it can be released. If only .........
We've been hearing this same arguement since we lost FFA! Why must we keep bringing it up and bumping/creating pointless threads? Until someone invents a time machine WE WILL NEVER GET OLDSKOOL UO BACK! So, why even post this crap? Can't we just talk about the game as it is?
Yes you are correct. The problem why this wont happen is you will always have the people that refuse to look at the overall facts.
I agree, the discussion will never be settled because people don't look at the overall facts, people like Brainy.
It is a FACT that pre-Trammel non-consensual FFA Ultima Online was completely successful it's entire existance with solid consistent growth the entire two and a half years. That is the overall fact no matter how you want to try to spin things, Brainy.
And, we could have Classic Ultima Online servers, EA could indeed make them and make them authentically. To say that we will never have them is only another of a long line of speculations, JTshultzy.
The current game, JTshultzy, is crap as far as I'm concerned; a challengeless video game for kids and the non-competitive.
Classic UO has been a dead horse for years now and poking at it with a stick isn't going to bring it back get over it all ready people even if they did bring back a classic server it still wouldn't be the same experience. If they brought them back with exploits people would all ready know them all and abuse them even more than they did back in it's infancy and if they brought them back without the exploits the experience wouldn't be the same either. Most people you played UO with originally have probably long left the game as well so from that aspect it wouldn't be the same either. There's a whole host of factors of why it wouldn't be the same and heck if it was the same and stayed the same you'd get bored of it pretty quickly anyways and leave eventually.
There are two distinct eras of Ultima Online development, pre and post Renaissance. Renaissance was an expansion that dramatically split the Ultima Online game world and community, forever changing the gameplay and development of the game.
Renaissance, also known as Trammel, was a consensual only environment ala EverQuest, only in old 2d graphics. The Trammel expansion was ignorantly piggybacked onto the original Ultima Online virtual world game design in a scheme to compete directly with the far superior consensual EverQuest. Trammel offered a less competitive easier set of game rules within the same Ultima Online game world, with no cost, disadvantage, consequence or limits for players that chose to take advantage of it. As can be expected, many players chose to play by the easier set of rules within the Trammel environment where they seemingly had "more to gain" and very little chance of loss. All new players would also be introduced and grow accustomed and familiar with playing in the Trammel game environment and have no reason to leave. A side effect of Trammel was that unattended macros and scripted robots were able to outperform actual players, running all day long, flourishing in the protective consensual only environment.
Of course, with much of the challenge removed from the game and little chance of loss, Ultima Online was not as worthwhile or rewarding to play. The focus of the game shifted from a competitive multiplayer online virtual world community to an online graphical chat room where the main competition involved collecting and trading virtual items and competing for the limited Non Player Character (NPC) content and monster spawns.
Wow, that really takes me back, do you guys still incisively debate tram vs fel? I don't know, I played UO for five years from shortly after launch, the only real difference was that I wasn't gank pk'ed every 20 steps. Yeah too bad for the pk's that were living in their parents basement selling loot on ebay, I'm sure most of them found another game community to rape. Is this thread like a bump from 2002?
daywolf i see that you yourself were obviously a trammy. Pkers are and have always been an essential part of uo. We dont just wander around uo looking for people to gank . it is ussually consensual and occasionally some noob will get gabked from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Alot of Blues just seem annoying and arrogant honestly. Being a Pk is the hardest, most fun and ussually least rewarding part of UO. You also have a gross misconception of us , and yiou should also no that despite being limited in size atm their are still several thousand active pks : P. Although we dont sit and hide at bridges anymore waiting for some noob to wander through. And honestly since the game is still alive, despite being arguably in its death throws, people are trying desperately to find out whats needed to save the game. And hulons1 Uo used to have around 2 hundred thousand subscribers, and the game has id like to say left an impact on most of those who have played it and still are playing it. Despite what has happend to it it is still a quality game. However, people cant help but reminisce of it glory days.
Who are you to say UO wont see another increase of 100k in the next year or so? On top of all this, UO has had the best retention of any game on the market. Including your FFA PVP games, which have all about died out now. They have all died at about the same rate that Felluca has died out. See a trend?
All worthless speculation by a forum poster named Brainy. Amazing!
Only your feeble opinions and speculations say I'm wrong - anyone can write any crap they want; and you do.
However, the facts are that people enjoyed the non-consensual UO virtual world enough for the game to grow the entire time to 185,000 subscriptions. That is a fact. That is a fact for your worthless speculation, Brainy.
Another fact versus your worthless personal speculation, brainy, is that within a year after Trammel and the consensual only lands spilt the virtual world in two, Ultima Online stopped growing and then began losing subscribers. Trammel and the consensual UO expansions have resulted in a net loss of over 55,000 subscriptions to date - that’s another fact for you.
So speculate this and speculate that Brainy. Wrongly speculate that there have been any games just like the FFA pre-Trammel UO and then wrongly try to compare UO to them and then draw your speculative personal opinions all you want. No matter how you try to spin your opinion and no matter how much you speculate, the facts remain;
Pre-Trammel UO = growth to 185,000.
Post-Trammel UO = loss of 55,000.
Save your breath to keep that big head of yours from spinning.
daywolf i see that you yourself were obviously a trammy.
That's an interesting comment since my account certainly predates tram, itself. I guess the debates STILL rage on lol
*wonders how many "pk'ers" of today actually had pre expansion accounts* (~1%?) (other than ebay bought or SP post expansion players)
Anyway, I was in Shadow Wolf Guard from the beginning oto its combined shard dominance, PvP was a regular thing and our wars with ELF and other such top ranking RP guilds were my highlight. PK gankers missed out on the game, mostly left. UO is not in its “death throws”.
Trammel didn't kill UO, I would say EQ, DAoC, and all the other MMORPGs out there that are on the market took players from UO to them. Also its a dinosaur and UO2 should of taken its place by now but the direction of UO was mishandled by EA.
Trammel was just a response from a decline of players who were asked why they quit and the number one problem out of control player killing. To a point where it was the wild wild west where gangs of Player Killer guilds would control choke points in dungeons, crossroads, etc. The game was not fun, and when Everquest came out and AO and others people jumped at the chance to acutally play a game without the fear of getting ganked by other players.
damn trammies. srry barry think ima have to bloack ur noob self( even if it was part of eas flawed reasoning). Im not gonna even get into that : / .First off, uo2 would have been a dumb move from a bussiness standpoint unless they made a way to basically xfer chars over from uo1. It would have grabbed tons of gamers that stay for a few months then leave. However, Many of the current hardcore gamers who have spent several thousand hours on uo would quite frankly get pissed, and it would split the uo community far more than eq did. A better move by far would have simply been to release a new radical expansion and maybe this time market it...
Secondly, trammel was a nail in the coffin for most of the players, especially the hardcore and veteran ones : P. Trammel alone did not kill uo but it is definitely part of the reason for the best mmorpg ever's decline : (
Trammel didn't kill UO, I would say EQ, DAoC, and all the other MMORPGs out there that are on the market took players from UO to them. Also its a dinosaur and UO2 should of taken its place by now but the direction of UO was mishandled by EA. Trammel was just a response from a decline of players who were asked why they quit and the number one problem out of control player killing. To a point where it was the wild wild west where gangs of Player Killer guilds would control choke points in dungeons, crossroads, etc. The game was not fun, and when Everquest came out and AO and others people jumped at the chance to acutally play a game without the fear of getting ganked by other players.
Common misconception. By becoming consensual, UO no longer offered a unique experience and actually put itself in direct competition with it's newer 3d consensual competitors. While UO was still solely a unique non-consensual game it maintained consistent growth the entire time right through the releases of these other games half-way through it's pre-Trammel growth to the amount of 330,000 competitive subscriptions before Trammel was released. In other words, UO had solid growth, the same as it had since existance, as a non-consensual game, even when these newer consensual games were released and grew to 330,000.
It was not until after UO went consensual placing itself in direct competition with the newer consensual games and the solid non-consensual DAoC that Ultima Online lost. What a foolish move:
1. You have a hardcore virtual world with solid consistent growth.
2. You see new carebear games like EQ and AC growing quickly.
3. You decide to change your old 2d Game into a carebear one.
4. Your old 2d game is now directly competing with the new 3d carebear games.
5. A new 3d non-consensual game comes out.
6. You don't update your technology and continue competing with both types of better games.
Trammel didn't kill UO, I would say EQ, DAoC, and all the other MMORPGs out there that are on the market took players from UO to them. Also its a dinosaur and UO2 should of taken its place by now but the direction of UO was mishandled by EA. Trammel was just a response from a decline of players who were asked why they quit and the number one problem out of control player killing. To a point where it was the wild wild west where gangs of Player Killer guilds would control choke points in dungeons, crossroads, etc. The game was not fun, and when Everquest came out and AO and others people jumped at the chance to acutally play a game without the fear of getting ganked by other players.
Yeah, quite true, this type of trend even continues today. Back then there was only UO, EQ and M59 yet a thriving new player base of mmog players thirsting for more. Once DAOC, AO, SB and other games were released, many of those players (many I played with in UO) went to those games. Now the trend continues with WoW, since it's growing popularity, many players have quit other games to play WoW as far as the seasoned mmog player base goes. All mmog subscription reports show that WoW's popularity increased while players left existing games and some day this too will happen to WoW as well.
As for fel/tram, I recall the servers being loaded for some time, it was nearly impossible to log in to place a house once tram was open. Populations were still high for years, it was hard to even find a place to mine, though after some time most of the PK guilds left the game which opened up fel to mining and hunting without any serious problems. I think part of that was that they usually traveled in groups, so there was little chance now for a single player or with a buddy to block a recall scroll since there were few of those guld networks around any longer.
Now that there was less to do they flooded the forums with constant complaints and verbal attacks against the rest of the player base until Origin got fed up with it and just shut down the forums. You're such a noob trammy! lol j/k It was always funny walking into Skara Brea in the middle of the evening, there would be maybe two players tending to daily business and within 3 minutes be swarmed by a dozen thieves fighting over the only morsel of player backpack to steal from. That too changed in time though, even they got bored to tears and left freeing up the cities to see players generally return for regular business trips.
I eventually left too (years later), but not from boredom but from outrage over a poorly supported game. EA cut support, outsourced, kicked the Seers, NERFED trades by revoking item decay, released a terrible bug filled expansion (AoS) and then wanted to raise subscription rates for all the good work they were doing;they claimed “rising bandwidth rates”... Puulease! The coming graphics upgrade perks my interest though, it is something people really wanted with the last graphical upgrade that turned out to be a bad release, though I'm uncertain about this one as well considering the previous upgrade attempt. It's a free upgrade though so it may draw many back to at least check it out which is a good move for Origin.
Comments
Well UO actually might have been growing for the first 1.5yrs mainly because it was a new concept. I would really like to see the subs in the first year compared to the amount of retail boxes sold. Where your point fails, is that they announced they were going to solve the griefing problem and the unconcentual pvp problem. So people stuck around. Coincidently right after trammel was released UO actually had its highest growth rate. Keep in mind this is when all the griefers were quiting, yet still UO had unprecedented growth.
You can dream in fantasy land all you want. But its perfectly clear to everyone that PreTrammel UO was a mess. If it was so great then there would be 40 SP shards. Instead they cant even fill 1 SP shard. Every game that has had servers with rules similiar to UO pretrammel have all failed. Games with rulesets like Post-Trammel have hugely succeeded. Not only that but no game in any other industry has succeeded with pretrammel rulesets. All the evidence says you are wrong, number one being that UO shards with trammel rulesets all are successes. Shards with pretrammel rules are failures.
You forget that at the beginning of UO the internet was still in its baby phase.
I remember even 1 year after uo was released in europa to have to pay per MINUTE, that was when T2A was out.
Yes UO grew then, but had a HUGE turn over rate those days and when decent competition came up Uo was surpassed in months.
And I still play UO 8 years after that and can say that not Trammel made the decline, but EA abandoning the customers with no real events or taking with them so long that you could quit 4 months, to return and get to the next story arc....
Griefing in UO is a chapter for itself, as I helped with a roleplay tavern in Felucca and being camped by bored pks was certainly not fun and Trammel made it lots easier to play your playstyle.
UO was/is good at killing itself by eliminating playstyles en masse.
Well its not a surprise to me that your theory is completely wrong. I owned the game for about 6-7yrs, played for about 3-4yrs. I started the game when it was released. My toon was likely the richest on the shard. I had 5 castle, large towers, blue houses all on one account. I had more money in that game then I could deal with. I pvped mostly. Only time I actually went to trammel was to shop at vendors that were there, because all my houses were on Felluca side. I pvped all the time. Usually when I wanted to kill reds all I had to do was hang out at any newb area outside town. I was present at many of the weekly pvp tournaments on our shard. When factions was released I partcipated in that, and had so much silver it was pathetic. I sold my account after 7yrs for almost 1k USD. I was offered 2k for my account 4yrs prior but didnt sell.
I am not saying pvp wasnt exactly popular. I am saying anyone who supports non concentual pvp is a griefer. There is no other reason to support non-concentual pvp otherwise. There are plenty of concentual pvp games. All the most popular pvp games are concentual. FFA pvp servers are unpopular, its a proven fact. UO was non-concentual and was losing tons of subs even though it was the only MMO on the market. As soon as they gave players a choice they overwhelming picked concentual pvp.
*laughing out loud*
Well, at the most, thanks for the laugh, Brainy.
The game quit growing because of the increasing release of other games (Star Wars, DAoC, etc.).
Initially UO had no competiton. Then only EQ for a while.
Trammel brought some people to the game that didn't like non-consensual pvp. Some pvpers left because they couldn't kill the noobs like they did before. The game was still growing for many months.
But the slowed down and stopped. But the numbers kept at a level for roughly 4 years after Trammel.
It only declined when the devs decided to bring out new 'expansions' rather than fix what was there. They also allowed the game economy to go awry (different subject altogether).
In the end though, it's a slightly enhanced 9 year old game. KR may bring a bit of life back into it - especially if the macroing features are significant. In the end though, the game needs a proper 3D environment to compete with every other game. If it had that I think it would be great once again. People don't need good graphics but it helps involve the player into the world. UO is a game now rather than the 'experience' we once felt, and which you can get (at least initially) with the new 'eye candy' in games like LotRO, and dozens of others.
Stay Frosty
Actually, it's a widely spread misconception that UO had no competition, partly due to some MMOGs not being included on mmogchart.com, but mostly due to thinking that UO had no competition because it was one of the first MMOGs released that eventually grew into one of the larger 100k+ MMOGs.
Everquest was released on March 16, 1999 and grew to 225,000 subscriptions before Trammel was released. Asheron's Call, released October 31, 1999, grew to 85,000 competitive subscriptions before Trammel was released. The Realm Online, which was released December 31, 1996, nine months before Ultima Online, grew to 25,862 subscriptions in May of 1999. Meridian 59, one of the first MMOGs, released September 27, 1996 had more than 25,000 beta testers and is still going today.
So as you can see, Ultima Online was not even the third significant MMOG released. The Realm Online, which grew to over 25,000 subscriptions is not to be ignored, nor is Meridian 59’s 25,000 beta testers at release. Those are significant numbers even for many MMOGs today. However, comparatively, it was a much greater amount, when MMOGs were still new. Ultima Online had 50,000 four months after release, a time when The Realm Online was competing with 25,000.
While we don't know how many of Meridian 59’s 25,000 beta testers were converted to paying subscribers, even with the other games, The Realm Online, Everquest and Asheron's Call, there were at least 335,000 competitive MMOG subscriptions to Ultima Online's 185,000 before the release of Trammel. UO did in fact have significant competition while it was a non-consensual game. And, yet, how did this non-consensual PvP Ultima Online perform, even with all this competition? It continued to grow at approximately the same rate as it had since release, most likely because it was offering something unique. Once Ultima Online changed to a consensual format with Trammel, it began competing directly with the other better consensual games like Everyquest.
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Back when I first started playing my pops trained up a red for me and I must confess I used to drobe you until you logged off. But then within 2 weeks everyone knew my characters name and I was alot of the times KOS. You see thats why I think it was better back then because after that happened I had to make another character and train him again and I couldn't be jerk in this online world. They could easily deal with you if you made a bad name for yourself. But soon after I found out about the thief. So hey I can play with my playstyle being a jerk. Games these days aim for the Hardcore Gamer, Core gamer, and casual player. UO had it all you wanted hardcore you made a red, if you wanted core you did T hunts, casual you mined and crafted (and made alot of money from it back then aswell might I add) Along with that you had a PvP society since just like in south la shit can go down in any sec!
But after I start to think about how it is now. I like it alot. I can PvP when I want PvE wihtout worring about a players name poping up in my journal. And now if you want insane PvP you can do a champ spawn and defend it. The only thing wrong with the current UO is the items. You can get so many different artifacts but most of them are trash. Well that and factions, virtues, races, tokuno being worthless, race only armor, crafting ( imagine if they redid the prop for every artifact in game and let crafters have a lower intensity raiting but let them choose the mods). I think if they fixed that and with their new 3d client UO would bring back alot of new players. Because all they have to do is polish up what they got and the game would be fun again.
Overall this thread is teh gay
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"MMOs, for people that like think chatting is like a skill or something, rotflol"
http://purepwnage.com
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it, bryanA.
I enjoyed UO more than any other MMOG or even computer game ever (with the exception of Alternate Reality: The City), but that was back when Ultima Online was rated "M" for mature, you had to ride normal tan colored horses to get around, which had to be either purchased at a stable or tamed, steel and leather armor looked and functioned like steel and leather armor and you could chop off the head of a murderer, and turn it in to town guards for a bounty reward. Ultima Online has done a 180, the phase has just been complete with this past Christmas' cute holiday gifts shown below, but most the damage was done long, long ago in lands far far away from dojos full of flipflop wearing Ninjas and treehuts scattered with sunglass wearing Elves.
I would say current Ultima Online is definately "teh gay" dood:
See its right here that you pour your entire arguement down the drain. If UO was so popular before Trammel release then why did EQ have more customers 6 months of its release? The problem here is that if UO would have had trammel day 1. Then it would be UO not EQ that was on top of subscribers. With trammel EQ would not have been able to compete.
It was EQ's success that forced UO to change, just to hold on to its subscriber base. It worked also. All those PVPers that quit because of trammel, umm what game did they go to EQ? A completely non PVP game.
Sorry but just another set of facts that proves the UO went the correct way with trammel. It should have done it sooner and it would have been a top game today. Instead of a billion EQ clones we would have had UO clones today. Instead because UO screwed up on day one with not fixing the griefing problem, all the games today are carebear EQ clones.
Pointless, pointless, pointless!
We've been hearing this same arguement since we lost FFA! Why must we keep bringing it up and bumping/creating pointless threads? Until someone invents a time machine WE WILL NEVER GET OLDSKOOL UO BACK! So, why even post this crap?
Can't we just talk about the game as it is?
EQ had more customers due to better marketing, better graphics and a more dumbed down game, but what is important is that the non-consensual Ultima Online also had a consistent and steady rate of growth with very little advertising. Even if the rate of growth was not as fast, it was solid and consistent, at least until less than a year after UO went consensual. Since then, Ultima Online has not had any lasting growth for seven years. Yes, seven years of no growth as a consensual game competing with better consensual games. No kidding.
EQ did not force UO to change, UO was entirely successful as a non-consensual game, growing to 185,000 subscriptions. What most likely happened is that EA tried to copy EQ's success and as a result shot themselves in the foot by putting themselves in competition with the better, prettier consensual EQ game.
"Sorry but just another set of facts that proves the UO went the correct way with trammel. It should have done it sooner and it would have been a top game today." You are so ignorant Brainy. Show me the success of Trammel. Where did UO's numbers take off once Trammel was implemented? Never. They continued at about the same rate of growth after Trammel was released and then within a year the game began dying. You don't know what a fact is.
Yes you are correct. The problem why this wont happen is you will always have the people that refuse to look at the overall facts. The stick to one single thing that they think proves thier point and thats all the evidence they want to hear. Then as soon as a developer gives them exactly what they want and it fails miserably. Then they complain about how its the developers fault, if only you raised it 2% instead of 1% percent. Then it would have been a huge success. Always this huge success is just barely out of reach. Meanwhile other games like WoW, EQ, SWG, DAOC, Counterstrike, Gears of War, Diablo are running away with HUGE successes and making less then perfect games, yet they seem to be rolling in the cash.
What needs to happen is Developers need to say in public, just like MYthic DAOC/Warhammer did, and say that they will never have FFA PVP or Full Looting. They gave them a shot once with 2 servers in DAOC, they were an absolute embarassment. The only server that had to close down because of no population was an FFA PVP Server. The remaining FFA PVP server is a disgrace. The biggest whiners are sitting on the FFA PVP server begging for players to play on thier server. Now they want to merge thier server with all the rest, LOL but no other servers want them.
Warhammer was right to tell them they will never be welcome in warhammer game and they would never see FFA PVP or Full Looting there. That way this group congregates to one game like Darkfall. Then they can sit on the darkfall boards and ask, I wonder why no investors will actually fund Darkfall so it can be released. If only .........
If all the "old school" PvPers and PKs that say thay played UO actually had, UO would have been bigger than WoW is today.
Yes you are correct. The problem why this wont happen is you will always have the people that refuse to look at the overall facts.
I agree, the discussion will never be settled because people don't look at the overall facts, people like Brainy.
It is a FACT that pre-Trammel non-consensual FFA Ultima Online was completely successful it's entire existance with solid consistent growth the entire two and a half years. That is the overall fact no matter how you want to try to spin things, Brainy.
And, we could have Classic Ultima Online servers, EA could indeed make them and make them authentically. To say that we will never have them is only another of a long line of speculations, JTshultzy.
The current game, JTshultzy, is crap as far as I'm concerned; a challengeless video game for kids and the non-competitive.
Wow, that really takes me back, do you guys still incisively debate tram vs fel? I don't know, I played UO for five years from shortly after launch, the only real difference was that I wasn't gank pk'ed every 20 steps. Yeah too bad for the pk's that were living in their parents basement selling loot on ebay, I'm sure most of them found another game community to rape. Is this thread like a bump from 2002?
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
All worthless speculation by a forum poster named Brainy. Amazing!
Save your breath to keep that big head of yours from spinning.
*wonders how many "pk'ers" of today actually had pre expansion accounts* (~1%?) (other than ebay bought or SP post expansion players)
Anyway, I was in Shadow Wolf Guard from the beginning oto its combined shard dominance, PvP was a regular thing and our wars with ELF and other such top ranking RP guilds were my highlight. PK gankers missed out on the game, mostly left. UO is not in its “death throws”.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Trammel didn't kill UO, I would say EQ, DAoC, and all the other MMORPGs out there that are on the market took players from UO to them. Also its a dinosaur and UO2 should of taken its place by now but the direction of UO was mishandled by EA.
Trammel was just a response from a decline of players who were asked why they quit and the number one problem out of control player killing. To a point where it was the wild wild west where gangs of Player Killer guilds would control choke points in dungeons, crossroads, etc. The game was not fun, and when Everquest came out and AO and others people jumped at the chance to acutally play a game without the fear of getting ganked by other players.
damn trammies. srry barry think ima have to bloack ur noob self( even if it was part of eas flawed reasoning). Im not gonna even get into that : / .First off, uo2 would have been a dumb move from a bussiness standpoint unless they made a way to basically xfer chars over from uo1. It would have grabbed tons of gamers that stay for a few months then leave. However, Many of the current hardcore gamers who have spent several thousand hours on uo would quite frankly get pissed, and it would split the uo community far more than eq did. A better move by far would have simply been to release a new radical expansion and maybe this time market it...
Secondly, trammel was a nail in the coffin for most of the players, especially the hardcore and veteran ones : P. Trammel alone did not kill uo but it is definitely part of the reason for the best mmorpg ever's decline : (
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Common misconception. By becoming consensual, UO no longer offered a unique experience and actually put itself in direct competition with it's newer 3d consensual competitors. While UO was still solely a unique non-consensual game it maintained consistent growth the entire time right through the releases of these other games half-way through it's pre-Trammel growth to the amount of 330,000 competitive subscriptions before Trammel was released. In other words, UO had solid growth, the same as it had since existance, as a non-consensual game, even when these newer consensual games were released and grew to 330,000.
It was not until after UO went consensual placing itself in direct competition with the newer consensual games and the solid non-consensual DAoC that Ultima Online lost. What a foolish move:
1. You have a hardcore virtual world with solid consistent growth.
2. You see new carebear games like EQ and AC growing quickly.
3. You decide to change your old 2d Game into a carebear one.
4. Your old 2d game is now directly competing with the new 3d carebear games.
5. A new 3d non-consensual game comes out.
6. You don't update your technology and continue competing with both types of better games.
7. You lose.
Yeah, quite true, this type of trend even continues today. Back then there was only UO, EQ and M59 yet a thriving new player base of mmog players thirsting for more. Once DAOC, AO, SB and other games were released, many of those players (many I played with in UO) went to those games. Now the trend continues with WoW, since it's growing popularity, many players have quit other games to play WoW as far as the seasoned mmog player base goes. All mmog subscription reports show that WoW's popularity increased while players left existing games and some day this too will happen to WoW as well.
As for fel/tram, I recall the servers being loaded for some time, it was nearly impossible to log in to place a house once tram was open. Populations were still high for years, it was hard to even find a place to mine, though after some time most of the PK guilds left the game which opened up fel to mining and hunting without any serious problems. I think part of that was that they usually traveled in groups, so there was little chance now for a single player or with a buddy to block a recall scroll since there were few of those guld networks around any longer.
Now that there was less to do they flooded the forums with constant complaints and verbal attacks against the rest of the player base until Origin got fed up with it and just shut down the forums. You're such a noob trammy! lol j/k It was always funny walking into Skara Brea in the middle of the evening, there would be maybe two players tending to daily business and within 3 minutes be swarmed by a dozen thieves fighting over the only morsel of player backpack to steal from. That too changed in time though, even they got bored to tears and left freeing up the cities to see players generally return for regular business trips.
I eventually left too (years later), but not from boredom but from outrage over a poorly supported game. EA cut support, outsourced, kicked the Seers, NERFED trades by revoking item decay, released a terrible bug filled expansion (AoS) and then wanted to raise subscription rates for all the good work they were doing;they claimed “rising bandwidth rates”... Puulease! The coming graphics upgrade perks my interest though, it is something people really wanted with the last graphical upgrade that turned out to be a bad release, though I'm uncertain about this one as well considering the previous upgrade attempt. It's a free upgrade though so it may draw many back to at least check it out which is a good move for Origin.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.