I'm just like you. That's a misconception that many players have about people that enjoyed the Ultima Online virtual world, the time before Trammel, consensual lands and all the fluff - they incorrectly believe without a doubt that we must have been murderers, thieves and griefers.
I simply enjoyed a dangerously exciting competitive medieval themed game; one where you could cut the head off a murderer and turn it into the guards for a bounty reward! That's awesome!
Electronic Arts removed the danger. Electronic Arts removed the excitement. Electronic Arts removed the competition. Electronic Arts destroyed the medieval theme. And, Electronic Arts removed the ability to behead your enemy.
There's little choice when there are two sets of rules to play the same game, almost everyone intelligently chooses to take advantage of the easier set.
Originally posted by sempiternal There's little choice when there are two sets of rules to play the same game, almost everyone intelligently chooses to take advantage of the easier set.
Seems obvious to me. Why would anyone want to take the path of most resistance? Your solution is to force people to play a "GAME" that they dont enjoy? Force people to engage in acts that are not fun and unwanted? Force people to do things that make the game unbearable to play so they quit?
Ummm do you know anything about economics? These game companies are here to make money. They are not designed to let thousands of people suffer just so one punk teenager kid can get his rocks off griefing people. In society we call those people criminals and they are punished.
I have a better idea. These game companies should identify these punks, flag their account information, and put it in a shared database for all MMO's to see, that way they can be banned in every game there is. Just like Las Vegas does to criminals at thier casino's. That way the majority of players can enjoy thier favorite MMO's.
Originally posted by Brainy Originally posted by sempiternal There's little choice when there are two sets of rules to play the same game, almost everyone intelligently chooses to take advantage of the easier set.
Seems obvious to me. Why would anyone want to take the path of most resistance? Your solution is to force people to play a "GAME" that they dont enjoy? Force people to engage in acts that are not fun and unwanted? Force people to do things that make the game unbearable to play so they quit?
Ummm do you know anything about economics? These game companies are here to make money. They are not designed to let thousands of people suffer just so one punk teenager kid can get his rocks off griefing people. In society we call those people criminals and they are punished.
I have a better idea. These game companies should identify these punks, flag their account information, and put it in a shared database for all MMO's to see, that way they can be banned in every game there is. Just like Las Vegas does to criminals at thier casino's. That way the majority of players can enjoy thier favorite MMO's.
*Sigh*
O look, you just explained why most of the mmorpg's look & feel the same. Instead of creating a gameplay that forces people to think, they all dumb down there content for the brainless. No pun intended.
Yet, games like EVE online show that there is a market for complicated games, with real effects to your actions.
One thing that was missing in UO, is not the banning of griefers, but the justice system. They had some nice cell's in UO, but only used them by GM's. In the free shards, there has been a system on several to reduce the amount of griefers, using a justice system.
Depending from shard to shard ( and the emulator used ). I remember on one shard, if you got red, and you got killed, you came before a npc justice court. After your sentencing, you got transported to a island ( with no way off ), and you needed to mine xxx amount of ore, before your character was allowed back ( for every kill, it was 15min? And sinds it took 3kills to turn red, it was a automatic sentence of 45min real time ). And as a side effect, the more you needed to mine, the more your fighting skills etc started to attrofie. And it worked like a charm. Most of the kid red's, who create the most problems, quickly got fed up, and only those with the right mindset where left. What shard was that system on again ... think it was zulu hotel, mja, i'm not sure anymore, to long ago?
Lets take Wish as a example. They started out with great promise. A second UO. After a while, that changed. All of a sudden, they wanted to make it easy for people, so people got resurected back at temple's with all there loot. Instead of making dead exensive, they started to make it ultra cheap, with no effect. Trust me, the internal debate vs the developers was not prity. They quickly started to change there own goals to gain a quick market share. And it failed. It pissed off a lot of people. They wanted to start to big ( like most mmorpg's like to ), and take a part of the market share. Wrong way to go about it. Start small, build up your game, improve your graphics over time to keep up with the market, and slowly grow your market base. Thats how you do it.
But when you dumb down your content, in order to gain acceptance from the general easy going users, you make yourself generic, and one of a hundred of mmorpg's. And thats what we see with most mmorpg's today. Hell, we even see it with most games today.
O look, you just explained why most of the mmorpg's look & feel the same. Instead of creating a gameplay that forces people to think, they all dumb down there content for the brainless. No pun intended.
Most MMORPGs look and feel the same? I don't know, looking at the games on the left it seems there's a wide variation.
And it's rather arrogant to claim that they ALL "dumb down there[sic] content for the brainless"; you yourself gave EVE as an example of one that doesn't, the Saga of Ryzom is another. And maybe it's not that people are brainless, perhaps they see thinking as work and prefer their entertainment to be, I don't know, entertaining? I get paid to think, when I'm playing I'd prefer not to have to do too much of that, thank you, otherwise it's just like work.
And maybe it's not that people are brainless, perhaps they see thinking as work and prefer their entertainment to be, I don't know, entertaining? I get paid to think, when I'm playing I'd prefer not to have to do too much of that, thank you, otherwise it's just like work.
Prefer not to think, Cerene? Prefer your games to be brainless? Case closed on you. No wonder you enjoy the current Ultima Online "game."
Originally posted by sempiternal There's little choice when there are two sets of rules to play the same game, almost everyone intelligently chooses to take advantage of the easier set.
Seems obvious to me. Why would anyone want to take the path of most resistance? Your solution is to force people to play a "GAME" that they dont enjoy? Force people to engage in acts that are not fun and unwanted? Force people to do things that make the game unbearable to play so they quit?
Ummm do you know anything about economics? These game companies are here to make money. They are not designed to let thousands of people suffer just so one punk teenager kid can get his rocks off griefing people. In society we call those people criminals and they are punished.
I have a better idea. These game companies should identify these punks, flag their account information, and put it in a shared database for all MMO's to see, that way they can be banned in every game there is. Just like Las Vegas does to criminals at thier casino's. That way the majority of players can enjoy thier favorite MMO's.
*Sigh*
O look, you just explained why most of the mmorpg's look & feel the same. Instead of creating a gameplay that forces people to think, they all dumb down there content for the brainless. No pun intended.
Yet, games like EVE online show that there is a market for complicated games, with real effects to your actions.
One thing that was missing in UO, is not the banning of griefers, but the justice system. They had some nice cell's in UO, but only used them by GM's. In the free shards, there has been a system on several to reduce the amount of griefers, using a justice system.
Depending from shard to shard ( and the emulator used ). I remember on one shard, if you got red, and you got killed, you came before a npc justice court. After your sentencing, you got transported to a island ( with no way off ), and you needed to mine xxx amount of ore, before your character was allowed back ( for every kill, it was 15min? And sinds it took 3kills to turn red, it was a automatic sentence of 45min real time ). And as a side effect, the more you needed to mine, the more your fighting skills etc started to attrofie. And it worked like a charm. Most of the kid red's, who create the most problems, quickly got fed up, and only those with the right mindset where left. What shard was that system on again ... think it was zulu hotel, mja, i'm not sure anymore, to long ago?
Lets take Wish as a example. They started out with great promise. A second UO. After a while, that changed. All of a sudden, they wanted to make it easy for people, so people got resurected back at temple's with all there loot. Instead of making dead exensive, they started to make it ultra cheap, with no effect. Trust me, the internal debate vs the developers was not prity. They quickly started to change there own goals to gain a quick market share. And it failed. It pissed off a lot of people. They wanted to start to big ( like most mmorpg's like to ), and take a part of the market share. Wrong way to go about it. Start small, build up your game, improve your graphics over time to keep up with the market, and slowly grow your market base. Thats how you do it.
But when you dumb down your content, in order to gain acceptance from the general easy going users, you make yourself generic, and one of a hundred of mmorpg's. And thats what we see with most mmorpg's today. Hell, we even see it with most games today.
Finally someone that understands life, someone that understands games! Very good post! Players like Brainy and Cerene will likely connect better with your post than anything I could write.
By the way, the free shard that has an island jail for murderers is still around and has been running for three years. I don't think I can mention the name, but it sounds like the one you are talking about.
You are right though, what Ultima Online lacked was a functioning bounty system. The bounty reward system they had in place actually encouraged players to murder as many as possible and do it as cruely as possible in order to build up high bounties on their own heads, which they could later exploit and collect with a friend or second account.
One simple change, requiring the murderer to pay the amount of the bounty reward in bail in order to get out of jail would have stopped the exploit and fixed the system.
However, even with the broken bounty system, the fact still remains that the pre-Trammel era grew to 185,000 subscriptions with no overall loss in subscriptions the entire time.
It would have been nice to see how it did with a bounty system that did not encourage the exact opposite of what it was designed to do.
O look, you just explained why most of the mmorpg's look & feel the same. Instead of creating a gameplay that forces people to think, they all dumb down there content for the brainless. No pun intended.
Nice play on words. However your point is not valid. What is dumbed down content mean to you? What game are you talking about that is "dumbed down". WoW I would assume? Lets see how about you compare End Game PVE WoW raids to end game Eve pve? WoW end game PVE is so complex 99% of the people cant even beat it. How would EVE stand up to that?
Maybe instead of spitting off generic cliches that have no meaning you will put a bit of thought into your posts instead?
What I really think you mean is the PVP system? I hardly think a 15 minute time out for someone griefing another player at thier convenience is much of a consequence. I agree its not the griefing act per se but the penalty that is the problem. They could completly eleminate griefing all together if they really wanted to change the rules. Sure they could make it where if a person turns red thier entire account is in hard core mode? Then any character from then on that takes a death would be permanent? That would surely solve the problem.
The entire problem with FFA PVP is that the risk does not equal the reward. There is almost no risk to the griefer, yet they reap the rewards, and ruin the game for the victim. If the risk was like in real life, where griefers if caught had to face penalties like LIFE IN PRISON, or DEATH (permanently), then sure maybe it really wouldnt be a problem. But griefers dont want those kind of risks. They really want free loot and the ability to cause problems for a game without any real penalty.
Originally posted by sempiternal However, even with the broken bounty system, the fact still remains that the pre-Trammel era grew to 185,000 subscriptions with no overall loss in subscriptions the entire time. It would have been nice to see how it did with a bounty system that did not encourage the exact opposite of what it was designed to do.
"no overall loss" != "no loss"
They created Trammel because many, many people quit over the FFA PvP.
It would have been nice to see how much it would have grown had Trammel been available from the beginning.
And maybe it's not that people are brainless, perhaps they see thinking as work and prefer their entertainment to be, I don't know, entertaining? I get paid to think, when I'm playing I'd prefer not to have to do too much of that, thank you, otherwise it's just like work.
Prefer not to think, Cerene? Prefer your games to be brainless? Case closed on you. No wonder you enjoy the current Ultima Online "game."
Yes, I do, and so do many people.
I still don't get why you're whining about Trammel when Felucca is still around. Unless, as I suggested in a previous now-disappeared post, you want unwilling victims.
Lets take Wish as a example. They started out with great promise. A second UO. After a while, that changed. All of a sudden, they wanted to make it easy for people, so people got resurected back at temple's with all there loot. Instead of making dead exensive, they started to make it ultra cheap, with no effect. Trust me, the internal debate vs the developers was not prity. They quickly started to change there own goals to gain a quick market share. And it failed. It pissed off a lot of people. They wanted to start to big ( like most mmorpg's like to ), and take a part of the market share. Wrong way to go about it. Start small, build up your game, improve your graphics over time to keep up with the market, and slowly grow your market base. Thats how you do it.
But when you dumb down your content, in order to gain acceptance from the general easy going users, you make yourself generic, and one of a hundred of mmorpg's. And thats what we see with most mmorpg's today. Hell, we even see it with most games today.
"Dumbing down" content is one way to attempt to gain market share, whether it's MMOs, movies, or TV shows. Clearly this is one approach, which works fairly often. Another approach is to go after a niche market, which EVE seems to be doing fairly well.
In UO's case, I don't see how this applies, at least with regards to the original poster's comments. There is a version (Felucca) with the original FFA PvP rules. I don't see this as "dumbed down" in this case, it's purely a gameplay preference since otherwise the game mechanics are the same. The fact that the Felucca population is very low compared to Trammel's, despite some additional benefits on Felucca, clearly shows most people prefer non-FFA.
If Felucca were not around, Sempiternal might have an argument that eliminating FFA reduced the population or population growth. However, since Felucca is around, that argument does not hold water, as now both people preferring FFA PvP and those disliking it have a choice.
However, even with the broken bounty system, the fact still remains that the pre-Trammel era grew to 185,000 subscriptions with no overall loss in subscriptions the entire time. It would have been nice to see how it did with a bounty system that did not encourage the exact opposite of what it was designed to do.
"no overall loss" != "no loss"
They created Trammel because many, many people quit over the FFA PvP.
It would have been nice to see how much it would have grown had Trammel been available from the beginning.
Yeah, "no overall loss" does not equal "no loss," it equals GROWTH during a given period. I am being exact for you, because you need it. A game is always gaining and losing subscriptions. What matters is how the game did overall. Were there more gained than lost? If so, the game has growth.
Without Trammel UO experienced growth the entire time!
With Trammel the game has gone nowhere but down. Since implementing Trammel the game has lost over 55,000 subscripitons!
They created Trammel because they were poor, ignorant, third tier developers that did not understand how to balance a virtual world and thought that they should copy what EQ was doing.
You think they created Trammel because many, many people quit over FFA PvP? People are always quitting games, what is important for growth is that the game design brings in more players than it loses and that is exactly what the FFA PvP UO did in FACT do.
Point to the place on the graph of the pre-Trammel FFA PvP UO that, "many people quit over FFA PvP."
If you can point to me a place where UO stopped growing as FFA PvP only game then I will forever go away.
But to save you some time, it doesn't exist. You are ignorant of the facts. Learn them:
Originally posted by Cerene If Felucca were not around, Sempiternal might have an argument that eliminating FFA reduced the population or population growth. However, since Felucca is around, that argument does not hold water, as now both people preferring FFA PvP and those disliking it have a choice.
That's ignorant bull. To quote a previous post that you were incapable of understanding:
"There's little choice when there are two sets of rules to play the same game, almost everyone intelligently chooses to take advantage of the easier set."
If I offer you the choice of $200 for passing go or the choice of $1000 for passing go, which will you take? It's not so much a matter of choice or preference as it is a matter of taking advantage of what is made available to you or taking the easiest route.
However, when everyone takes the $1000 for passing go it imbalances the game which is based on property values in the 100s, ruins the challenge and the game grows boring and is over quickly.
Originally posted by sempiternal You think they created Trammel because many, many people quit over FFA PvP? People are always quitting games, what is important for growth is that the game design brings in more players than it loses and that is exactly what the FFA PvP UO did in FACT do.[/b]Point to the place on the graph of the pre-Trammel FFA PvP UO that, "many people quit over FFA PvP."If you can point to me a place where UO stopped growing as FFA PvP only game then I will forever go away.But to save you some time, it doesn't exist. You are ignorant of the facts. Learn them:
Yes, actually I do think they created Trammel because many people quite over FFA PvP. I know I did. Why do you think they did it, because no one wanted it?
Your graph shows nothing. UO grew after Trammel. All games lose members after a while.
Originally posted by Cerene If Felucca were not around, Sempiternal might have an argument that eliminating FFA reduced the population or population growth. However, since Felucca is around, that argument does not hold water, as now both people preferring FFA PvP and those disliking it have a choice.
That's ignorant bull. To quote a previous post that you were incapable of understanding: "There's little choice when there are two sets of rules to play the same game, almost everyone intelligently chooses to take advantage of the easier set." If I offer you the choice of $200 for passing go or the choice of $1000 for passing go, which will you take? It's not so much a matter of choice or preference as it is a matter of taking advantage of what is made available to you or taking the easiest route. However, when everyone takes the $1000 for passing go it imbalances the game which is based on property values in the 100s, ruins the challenge and the game grows boring and is over quickly. You don't get it and likely never will.
First of all, according to you FFA is more challenging, so clearly that's the $1000 option, not the $200 one.
Second... if you think non-FFA Trammel is the $1000, what are you arguing? It should not have been made available? UO isn't the only game around, people would just go for the other non-FFA games... and many did.
Originally posted by sempiternal However, when everyone takes the $1000 for passing go it imbalances the game which is based on property values in the 100s, ruins the challenge and the game grows boring and is over quickly. You don't get it and likely never will.
You are the one that doesn't get the fact that FFA PvP is not a "challenge" to most people, it's a nuisance.
Anyone that wants the challenge of FFA can go to Felucca. Why don't you get that?
I think Trammel was a major factor in the decline. Yeah, games get old after a while, but the thing that kept me playing UO was the PvP. I played much longer than I would have if I had simply played Trammel the whole time. In Fel my heart would beat fast when I was fighting. In Trammel I would almost fall sleep fighting.
This is a neverending argument. Some people will never get it. Eventually when you collect all the loot there is to collect in the game and tame every creature. When you finally get that tower to put your rare items in... what is left? You did it. You did everything there is to do in the game. From here on out its nothing but repetitive things. You could go play fashion model at the bank and show off your leet wares, which you so skillfully had your dragons farm for you.
When you ass FFA PvP into the mix, you won't get the items as easily as you did when you could farm without consequences. Therefore it takes you longer to get things, and in doing it takes you longer to get bored. This lengthens the time people will play. Why don't you get bored of farming your hard to get leet gear? Because it's fun ass hell fighting other people for it. When you get your leet gear you feel better about it than if you had farmed it in easymode. When you have done everything there is to do in the game, now you can continue to PvP keeping you interested.
When they released Trammel everyone used it to farm everything and get all the leet stuff without fear. Soon after they had everything and ran out of things to do. So they found another game to intrest them. If they didn't release Trammel a few people would get tired of the ganks and quit, but the ones who stayed would have stayed a lot longer than they would if they could go to easymode to farm their gear.
Look at console games. When you use cheats you get to the end much faster and beat the game sooner than you would have without the cheats. When you finish the game you get tired of it and find another one. Without the cheats you would still be playing it. Also in my experience the games that last forever on the console are the ones where I can challenge my friends. Goldeneye will never get bored because I can play it over and over with my friends. If there was no multiplayer and I used cheats I would get bored much faster. Halo seems to be the same way. In fact most FPS nowadays are based off online because the campaign gets boring after you do it a million times. PvP is why online games are so damn fun.
I played post UO:REN. I played in Trammel for a few months and started to get bored. I left my guild and was giving my stuff away because I was going to leave. I decided to go have some fun in Fel since I had nothing to lose. I ended up playing for 2 more years. I guarantee you that I would have played longer if Trammel did not exist.
Consentual PvP is like using cheats in console games. Yes, it ends much of the frustration and provides you with some instant fun, but the games is going to die out much faster than it would have without them. This is why I never use cheats until I experience the game without them.
Originally posted by Cerene Originally posted by sempiternal However, when everyone takes the $1000 for passing go it imbalances the game which is based on property values in the 100s, ruins the challenge and the game grows boring and is over quickly. You don't get it and likely never will.
You are the one that doesn't get the fact that FFA PvP is not a "challenge" to most people, it's a nuisance.
Anyone that wants the challenge of FFA can go to Felucca. Why don't you get that?
A lot of people do go to Fel for a challenge. Unforntunately there is hardly anyone there because who would farm with Pks when everyone else farms without them. You would be at a huge disadvantage. Since there is nobody in Fel it would be hard to find a group of people to go farming to have safety in numbers. In Tram you can farm solo with no worries. I think in the end there were 2 kinds of people. People who farmed in Trammel and sat at the bank in their leet gear, and people who farmed in Trammel and used the loot to keep their PvP character going. A lot of the appeal in MMORPGs is getting cool stuff and showing it off. With Trammel all the low-skilled people could easily get gear because they didn't have to fight other players to get it.
To me it seems like Trammel was comparable the open WoW world and Fel was comparable to the battlegrounds. People farmed their gear in Trammel, or the open WoW world, and used it to PvP in Fel, or the battlegrounds.
Originally posted by 7hunderstorm I think Trammel was a major factor in the decline. Yeah, games get old after a while, but the thing that kept me playing UO was the PvP. I played much longer than I would have if I had simply played Trammel the whole time. In Fel my heart would beat fast when I was fighting. In Trammel I would almost fall sleep fighting.
I never disputed the fact that some people, even non-gankers, prefer FFA PvP. I believe they are in the minority though.
This is a neverending argument. Some people will never get it. Eventually when you collect all the loot there is to collect in the game and tame every creature. When you finally get that tower to put your rare items in... what is left? You did it. You did everything there is to do in the game. From here on out its nothing but repetitive things. You could go play fashion model at the bank and show off your leet wares, which you so skillfully had your dragons farm for you.
This presupposes you play for loot. I'd say there is a big overlap between people that play for levels/loot and those that like FFA PvP.
Saying "you did everything" there is to do in UO when you get a bunch of items is silly. There's so much to see and do when you're not focused on getting stuff.
When you ass FFA PvP into the mix, you won't get the items as easily as you did when you could farm without consequences. Therefore it takes you longer to get things, and in doing it takes you longer to get bored. This lengthens the time people will play. Why don't you get bored of farming your hard to get leet gear? Because it's fun ass hell fighting other people for it. When you get your leet gear you feel better about it than if you had farmed it in easymode. When you have done everything there is to do in the game, now you can continue to PvP keeping you interested.
When they released Trammel everyone used it to farm everything and get all the leet stuff without fear. Soon after they had everything and ran out of things to do. So they found another game to intrest them. If they didn't release Trammel a few people would get tired of the ganks and quit, but the ones who stayed would have stayed a lot longer than they would if they could go to easymode to farm their gear.
I don't believe that it was "a few people" getting tired of the ganks, I believe it was hordes and hordes. When I quit there was a survey on why, the first option was griefers. If the number of people quitting due to getting PKed was small they wouldn't have put any effort into Trammel.
Look at console games. When you use cheats you get to the end much faster and beat the game sooner than you would have without the cheats. When you finish the game you get tired of it and find another one. Without the cheats you would still be playing it. Also in my experience the games that last forever on the console are the ones where I can challenge my friends. Goldeneye will never get bored because I can play it over and over with my friends. If there was no multiplayer and I used cheats I would get bored much faster. Halo seems to be the same way. In fact most FPS nowadays are based off online because the campaign gets boring after you do it a million times. PvP is why online games are so damn fun.
Playing without FFA PvP is not cheating, it's playing without FFA PvP. You also can't compare Goldeneye with console RPGs, the latter have an end; MMOs are open-ended. If you want to challenge your friends Felucca is available.
I played post UO:REN. I played in Trammel for a few months and started to get bored. I left my guild and was giving my stuff away because I was going to leave. I decided to go have some fun in Fel since I had nothing to lose. I ended up playing for 2 more years. I guarantee you that I would have played longer if Trammel did not exist.
A good example - you wanted challenge, you went to Felucca. That's the way it's supposed to work.
Consentual PvP is like using cheats in console games. Yes, it ends much of the frustration and provides you with some instant fun, but the games is going to die out much faster than it would have without them. This is why I never use cheats until I experience the game without them.
Just my opinion.
Consensual PvP is not like using cheats, it's like consensual PvP. When you played Goldeneye with your friends, your friends were willing. I guarantee you if you're playing Zelda and some random comes in and PKs you you wouldn't be happy.
I have no problem with people liking PvP - I like PvP sometimes. But many people don't go to an MMO to PvP. I personally don't see MMO PvP as very challenging, higher levels and better gear usually trumps skill. I think games like Counterstrike offer more of a real challenge that is based on player skill rather than non-combat things like levels or items.
My objection is to those, like Sempiternal, that seek to force PvP on everyone. That would never work, people that don't like it would just go to a different game.
Originally posted by 7hunderstorm A lot of people do go to Fel for a challenge. Unforntunately there is hardly anyone there because who would farm with Pks when everyone else farms without them. You would be at a huge disadvantage. Since there is nobody in Fel it would be hard to find a group of people to go farming to have safety in numbers. In Tram you can farm solo with no worries. I think in the end there were 2 kinds of people. People who farmed in Trammel and sat at the bank in their leet gear, and people who farmed in Trammel and used the loot to keep their PvP character going.
Why would you need numbers if there's no one there? And, why would I want to farm? That's a leveler mentality, not a role player mentality. Even if I did, why would I go to a popular spot? UO is gigantic, even in the early days you could go days without seeing anyone if you left the main areas. If Felucca population is so low I'd imagine it's even easier.
A lot of the appeal in MMORPGs is getting cool stuff and showing it off.
That's certainly one appeal, usually one shared by younger males I think. Others find different things appealing, like exploring or role playing. MMOs did start off as MMORPGs originally.
With Trammel all the low-skilled people could easily get gear because they didn't have to fight other players to get it.
In MMOs fights are rarely fair or come down to skill, it usually comes down to levels or items. Calling someone low-skilled because they haven't spent any combat time and have low combat skils and no l337 gear is silly, especially if they don't go to an MMO for combat.
To me it seems like Trammel was comparable the open WoW world and Fel was comparable to the battlegrounds. People farmed their gear in Trammel, or the open WoW world, and used it to PvP in Fel, or the battlegrounds.
And this is wrong because? WoW I hear is pretty popular, they must be doing something right. I'm guessing it's because they have FFA PvP? Oh wait... they don't, do they?
Yeah, "no overall loss" does not equal "no loss," it equals GROWTH during a given period. I am being exact for you, because you need it. A game is always gaining and losing subscriptions. What matters is how the game did overall. Were there more gained than lost? If so, the game has growth. Without Trammel UO experienced growth the entire time! With Trammel the game has gone nowhere but down. Since implementing Trammel the game has lost over 55,000 subscripitons! They created Trammel because they were poor, ignorant, third tier developers that did not understand how to balance a virtual world and thought that they should copy what EQ was doing. You think they created Trammel because many, many people quit over FFA PvP? People are always quitting games, what is important for growth is that the game design brings in more players than it loses and that is exactly what the FFA PvP UO did in FACT do. Point to the place on the graph of the pre-Trammel FFA PvP UO that, "many people quit over FFA PvP." If you can point to me a place where UO stopped growing as FFA PvP only game then I will forever go away. But to save you some time, it doesn't exist. You are ignorant of the facts. Learn them:
You are obviously having a difficult time understanding your own quoted graph. Snap shot to 2001 (1 yr after pve expansion) there was a net gain of 50k, snapshot to 2003 (1 month after another PVE expansion) net gain of 70k. Who are you to say UO wont see another increase of 100k in the next year or so?
On top of all this, UO has had the best retention of any game on the market. Including your FFA PVP games, which have all about died out now. They have all died at about the same rate that Felluca has died out. See a trend?
Originally posted by 7hunderstorm A lot of people do go to Fel for a challenge. Unforntunately there is hardly anyone there because who would farm with Pks when everyone else farms without them.
I think this sentence pretty much sums up exactly why FFA PVP is unpopular, games with it die out quickly, why UO saved thier game after severly limiting it, and why Felluca is dead.
The real question you should be asking yourself is that if FFA PVP is so fun, then why is it that PVP'ers are only attacking people who are PVEing? FFA PVP is like a turkey shoot. Defenseless turkeys are fun to shoot when all the advantages are in your favor, when they are not even expecting it and cannot defend themselves. However give those turkeys guns to shoot back and all a sudden its not so fun anymore?
Its all about power. PVE'ers and Concentual PVPers have it. And punk kid griefers dont. I dont see this as a problem, nor does all the other game developers. I really think maybe those punk kids need to ask themselves why they cant have fun in a competitive atmosphere and can only entertain themselves killing things that dont fight back.
Comments
I'm just like you. That's a misconception that many players have about people that enjoyed the Ultima Online virtual world, the time before Trammel, consensual lands and all the fluff - they incorrectly believe without a doubt that we must have been murderers, thieves and griefers.
I simply enjoyed a dangerously exciting competitive medieval themed game; one where you could cut the head off a murderer and turn it into the guards for a bounty reward! That's awesome!
Electronic Arts removed the danger. Electronic Arts removed the excitement. Electronic Arts removed the competition. Electronic Arts destroyed the medieval theme. And, Electronic Arts removed the ability to behead your enemy.
And what of the victims? They didn't want to be victims, they wanted to play PvE. That's why they're on Trammel.
If PvP were truly popular it would be Felluca that had the higher population, but there the gankers have no victims, just other PvPers.
Seems obvious to me. Why would anyone want to take the path of most resistance? Your solution is to force people to play a "GAME" that they dont enjoy? Force people to engage in acts that are not fun and unwanted? Force people to do things that make the game unbearable to play so they quit?
Ummm do you know anything about economics? These game companies are here to make money. They are not designed to let thousands of people suffer just so one punk teenager kid can get his rocks off griefing people. In society we call those people criminals and they are punished.
I have a better idea. These game companies should identify these punks, flag their account information, and put it in a shared database for all MMO's to see, that way they can be banned in every game there is. Just like Las Vegas does to criminals at thier casino's. That way the majority of players can enjoy thier favorite MMO's.
You don't know very much about anything do you?
Seems obvious to me. Why would anyone want to take the path of most resistance? Your solution is to force people to play a "GAME" that they dont enjoy? Force people to engage in acts that are not fun and unwanted? Force people to do things that make the game unbearable to play so they quit?
Ummm do you know anything about economics? These game companies are here to make money. They are not designed to let thousands of people suffer just so one punk teenager kid can get his rocks off griefing people. In society we call those people criminals and they are punished.
I have a better idea. These game companies should identify these punks, flag their account information, and put it in a shared database for all MMO's to see, that way they can be banned in every game there is. Just like Las Vegas does to criminals at thier casino's. That way the majority of players can enjoy thier favorite MMO's.
*Sigh*
O look, you just explained why most of the mmorpg's look & feel the same. Instead of creating a gameplay that forces people to think, they all dumb down there content for the brainless. No pun intended.
Yet, games like EVE online show that there is a market for complicated games, with real effects to your actions.
One thing that was missing in UO, is not the banning of griefers, but the justice system. They had some nice cell's in UO, but only used them by GM's. In the free shards, there has been a system on several to reduce the amount of griefers, using a justice system.
Depending from shard to shard ( and the emulator used ). I remember on one shard, if you got red, and you got killed, you came before a npc justice court. After your sentencing, you got transported to a island ( with no way off ), and you needed to mine xxx amount of ore, before your character was allowed back ( for every kill, it was 15min? And sinds it took 3kills to turn red, it was a automatic sentence of 45min real time ). And as a side effect, the more you needed to mine, the more your fighting skills etc started to attrofie. And it worked like a charm. Most of the kid red's, who create the most problems, quickly got fed up, and only those with the right mindset where left. What shard was that system on again ... think it was zulu hotel, mja, i'm not sure anymore, to long ago?
Lets take Wish as a example. They started out with great promise. A second UO. After a while, that changed. All of a sudden, they wanted to make it easy for people, so people got resurected back at temple's with all there loot. Instead of making dead exensive, they started to make it ultra cheap, with no effect. Trust me, the internal debate vs the developers was not prity. They quickly started to change there own goals to gain a quick market share. And it failed. It pissed off a lot of people. They wanted to start to big ( like most mmorpg's like to ), and take a part of the market share. Wrong way to go about it. Start small, build up your game, improve your graphics over time to keep up with the market, and slowly grow your market base. Thats how you do it.
But when you dumb down your content, in order to gain acceptance from the general easy going users, you make yourself generic, and one of a hundred of mmorpg's. And thats what we see with most mmorpg's today. Hell, we even see it with most games today.
Most MMORPGs look and feel the same? I don't know, looking at the games on the left it seems there's a wide variation.
And it's rather arrogant to claim that they ALL "dumb down there[sic] content for the brainless"; you yourself gave EVE as an example of one that doesn't, the Saga of Ryzom is another. And maybe it's not that people are brainless, perhaps they see thinking as work and prefer their entertainment to be, I don't know, entertaining? I get paid to think, when I'm playing I'd prefer not to have to do too much of that, thank you, otherwise it's just like work.
Prefer not to think, Cerene? Prefer your games to be brainless? Case closed on you. No wonder you enjoy the current Ultima Online "game."
Seems obvious to me. Why would anyone want to take the path of most resistance? Your solution is to force people to play a "GAME" that they dont enjoy? Force people to engage in acts that are not fun and unwanted? Force people to do things that make the game unbearable to play so they quit?
Ummm do you know anything about economics? These game companies are here to make money. They are not designed to let thousands of people suffer just so one punk teenager kid can get his rocks off griefing people. In society we call those people criminals and they are punished.
I have a better idea. These game companies should identify these punks, flag their account information, and put it in a shared database for all MMO's to see, that way they can be banned in every game there is. Just like Las Vegas does to criminals at thier casino's. That way the majority of players can enjoy thier favorite MMO's.
*Sigh*
O look, you just explained why most of the mmorpg's look & feel the same. Instead of creating a gameplay that forces people to think, they all dumb down there content for the brainless. No pun intended.
Yet, games like EVE online show that there is a market for complicated games, with real effects to your actions.
One thing that was missing in UO, is not the banning of griefers, but the justice system. They had some nice cell's in UO, but only used them by GM's. In the free shards, there has been a system on several to reduce the amount of griefers, using a justice system.
Depending from shard to shard ( and the emulator used ). I remember on one shard, if you got red, and you got killed, you came before a npc justice court. After your sentencing, you got transported to a island ( with no way off ), and you needed to mine xxx amount of ore, before your character was allowed back ( for every kill, it was 15min? And sinds it took 3kills to turn red, it was a automatic sentence of 45min real time ). And as a side effect, the more you needed to mine, the more your fighting skills etc started to attrofie. And it worked like a charm. Most of the kid red's, who create the most problems, quickly got fed up, and only those with the right mindset where left. What shard was that system on again ... think it was zulu hotel, mja, i'm not sure anymore, to long ago?
Lets take Wish as a example. They started out with great promise. A second UO. After a while, that changed. All of a sudden, they wanted to make it easy for people, so people got resurected back at temple's with all there loot. Instead of making dead exensive, they started to make it ultra cheap, with no effect. Trust me, the internal debate vs the developers was not prity. They quickly started to change there own goals to gain a quick market share. And it failed. It pissed off a lot of people. They wanted to start to big ( like most mmorpg's like to ), and take a part of the market share. Wrong way to go about it. Start small, build up your game, improve your graphics over time to keep up with the market, and slowly grow your market base. Thats how you do it.
But when you dumb down your content, in order to gain acceptance from the general easy going users, you make yourself generic, and one of a hundred of mmorpg's. And thats what we see with most mmorpg's today. Hell, we even see it with most games today.
Finally someone that understands life, someone that understands games! Very good post! Players like Brainy and Cerene will likely connect better with your post than anything I could write.
By the way, the free shard that has an island jail for murderers is still around and has been running for three years. I don't think I can mention the name, but it sounds like the one you are talking about.
You are right though, what Ultima Online lacked was a functioning bounty system. The bounty reward system they had in place actually encouraged players to murder as many as possible and do it as cruely as possible in order to build up high bounties on their own heads, which they could later exploit and collect with a friend or second account.
One simple change, requiring the murderer to pay the amount of the bounty reward in bail in order to get out of jail would have stopped the exploit and fixed the system.
However, even with the broken bounty system, the fact still remains that the pre-Trammel era grew to 185,000 subscriptions with no overall loss in subscriptions the entire time.
It would have been nice to see how it did with a bounty system that did not encourage the exact opposite of what it was designed to do.
Nice play on words. However your point is not valid. What is dumbed down content mean to you? What game are you talking about that is "dumbed down". WoW I would assume? Lets see how about you compare End Game PVE WoW raids to end game Eve pve? WoW end game PVE is so complex 99% of the people cant even beat it. How would EVE stand up to that?
Maybe instead of spitting off generic cliches that have no meaning you will put a bit of thought into your posts instead?
What I really think you mean is the PVP system? I hardly think a 15 minute time out for someone griefing another player at thier convenience is much of a consequence. I agree its not the griefing act per se but the penalty that is the problem. They could completly eleminate griefing all together if they really wanted to change the rules. Sure they could make it where if a person turns red thier entire account is in hard core mode? Then any character from then on that takes a death would be permanent? That would surely solve the problem.
The entire problem with FFA PVP is that the risk does not equal the reward. There is almost no risk to the griefer, yet they reap the rewards, and ruin the game for the victim. If the risk was like in real life, where griefers if caught had to face penalties like LIFE IN PRISON, or DEATH (permanently), then sure maybe it really wouldnt be a problem. But griefers dont want those kind of risks. They really want free loot and the ability to cause problems for a game without any real penalty.
They created Trammel because many, many people quit over the FFA PvP.
It would have been nice to see how much it would have grown had Trammel been available from the beginning.
I still don't get why you're whining about Trammel when Felucca is still around. Unless, as I suggested in a previous now-disappeared post, you want unwilling victims.
"Dumbing down" content is one way to attempt to gain market share, whether it's MMOs, movies, or TV shows. Clearly this is one approach, which works fairly often. Another approach is to go after a niche market, which EVE seems to be doing fairly well.
In UO's case, I don't see how this applies, at least with regards to the original poster's comments. There is a version (Felucca) with the original FFA PvP rules. I don't see this as "dumbed down" in this case, it's purely a gameplay preference since otherwise the game mechanics are the same. The fact that the Felucca population is very low compared to Trammel's, despite some additional benefits on Felucca, clearly shows most people prefer non-FFA.
If Felucca were not around, Sempiternal might have an argument that eliminating FFA reduced the population or population growth. However, since Felucca is around, that argument does not hold water, as now both people preferring FFA PvP and those disliking it have a choice.
"no overall loss" != "no loss"
They created Trammel because many, many people quit over the FFA PvP.
It would have been nice to see how much it would have grown had Trammel been available from the beginning.
Yeah, "no overall loss" does not equal "no loss," it equals GROWTH during a given period. I am being exact for you, because you need it. A game is always gaining and losing subscriptions. What matters is how the game did overall. Were there more gained than lost? If so, the game has growth.
Without Trammel UO experienced growth the entire time!
With Trammel the game has gone nowhere but down. Since implementing Trammel the game has lost over 55,000 subscripitons!
They created Trammel because they were poor, ignorant, third tier developers that did not understand how to balance a virtual world and thought that they should copy what EQ was doing.
You think they created Trammel because many, many people quit over FFA PvP? People are always quitting games, what is important for growth is that the game design brings in more players than it loses and that is exactly what the FFA PvP UO did in FACT do.
Point to the place on the graph of the pre-Trammel FFA PvP UO that, "many people quit over FFA PvP."
If you can point to me a place where UO stopped growing as FFA PvP only game then I will forever go away.
But to save you some time, it doesn't exist. You are ignorant of the facts. Learn them:
That's ignorant bull. To quote a previous post that you were incapable of understanding:
"There's little choice when there are two sets of rules to play the same game, almost everyone intelligently chooses to take advantage of the easier set."
If I offer you the choice of $200 for passing go or the choice of $1000 for passing go, which will you take? It's not so much a matter of choice or preference as it is a matter of taking advantage of what is made available to you or taking the easiest route.
However, when everyone takes the $1000 for passing go it imbalances the game which is based on property values in the 100s, ruins the challenge and the game grows boring and is over quickly.
You don't get it and likely never will.
Originally posted by sempiternal
You think they created Trammel because many, many people quit over FFA PvP? People are always quitting games, what is important for growth is that the game design brings in more players than it loses and that is exactly what the FFA PvP UO did in FACT do.[/b] Point to the place on the graph of the pre-Trammel FFA PvP UO that, "many people quit over FFA PvP." If you can point to me a place where UO stopped growing as FFA PvP only game then I will forever go away. But to save you some time, it doesn't exist. You are ignorant of the facts. Learn them:
Yes, actually I do think they created Trammel because many people quite over FFA PvP. I know I did. Why do you think they did it, because no one wanted it?
Your graph shows nothing. UO grew after Trammel. All games lose members after a while.
First of all, according to you FFA is more challenging, so clearly that's the $1000 option, not the $200 one.
Second... if you think non-FFA Trammel is the $1000, what are you arguing? It should not have been made available? UO isn't the only game around, people would just go for the other non-FFA games... and many did.
You are the one that doesn't get the fact that FFA PvP is not a "challenge" to most people, it's a nuisance.
Anyone that wants the challenge of FFA can go to Felucca. Why don't you get that?
This is a neverending argument. Some people will never get it. Eventually when you collect all the loot there is to collect in the game and tame every creature. When you finally get that tower to put your rare items in... what is left? You did it. You did everything there is to do in the game. From here on out its nothing but repetitive things. You could go play fashion model at the bank and show off your leet wares, which you so skillfully had your dragons farm for you.
When you ass FFA PvP into the mix, you won't get the items as easily as you did when you could farm without consequences. Therefore it takes you longer to get things, and in doing it takes you longer to get bored. This lengthens the time people will play. Why don't you get bored of farming your hard to get leet gear? Because it's fun ass hell fighting other people for it. When you get your leet gear you feel better about it than if you had farmed it in easymode. When you have done everything there is to do in the game, now you can continue to PvP keeping you interested.
When they released Trammel everyone used it to farm everything and get all the leet stuff without fear. Soon after they had everything and ran out of things to do. So they found another game to intrest them. If they didn't release Trammel a few people would get tired of the ganks and quit, but the ones who stayed would have stayed a lot longer than they would if they could go to easymode to farm their gear.
Look at console games. When you use cheats you get to the end much faster and beat the game sooner than you would have without the cheats. When you finish the game you get tired of it and find another one. Without the cheats you would still be playing it. Also in my experience the games that last forever on the console are the ones where I can challenge my friends. Goldeneye will never get bored because I can play it over and over with my friends. If there was no multiplayer and I used cheats I would get bored much faster. Halo seems to be the same way. In fact most FPS nowadays are based off online because the campaign gets boring after you do it a million times. PvP is why online games are so damn fun.
I played post UO:REN. I played in Trammel for a few months and started to get bored. I left my guild and was giving my stuff away because I was going to leave. I decided to go have some fun in Fel since I had nothing to lose. I ended up playing for 2 more years. I guarantee you that I would have played longer if Trammel did not exist.
Consentual PvP is like using cheats in console games. Yes, it ends much of the frustration and provides you with some instant fun, but the games is going to die out much faster than it would have without them. This is why I never use cheats until I experience the game without them.
Just my opinion.
You are the one that doesn't get the fact that FFA PvP is not a "challenge" to most people, it's a nuisance.
Anyone that wants the challenge of FFA can go to Felucca. Why don't you get that?
A lot of people do go to Fel for a challenge. Unforntunately there is hardly anyone there because who would farm with Pks when everyone else farms without them. You would be at a huge disadvantage. Since there is nobody in Fel it would be hard to find a group of people to go farming to have safety in numbers. In Tram you can farm solo with no worries. I think in the end there were 2 kinds of people. People who farmed in Trammel and sat at the bank in their leet gear, and people who farmed in Trammel and used the loot to keep their PvP character going. A lot of the appeal in MMORPGs is getting cool stuff and showing it off. With Trammel all the low-skilled people could easily get gear because they didn't have to fight other players to get it.
To me it seems like Trammel was comparable the open WoW world and Fel was comparable to the battlegrounds. People farmed their gear in Trammel, or the open WoW world, and used it to PvP in Fel, or the battlegrounds.
I never disputed the fact that some people, even non-gankers, prefer FFA PvP. I believe they are in the minority though.
This presupposes you play for loot. I'd say there is a big overlap between people that play for levels/loot and those that like FFA PvP.
Saying "you did everything" there is to do in UO when you get a bunch of items is silly. There's so much to see and do when you're not focused on getting stuff.
I don't believe that it was "a few people" getting tired of the ganks, I believe it was hordes and hordes. When I quit there was a survey on why, the first option was griefers. If the number of people quitting due to getting PKed was small they wouldn't have put any effort into Trammel.
Playing without FFA PvP is not cheating, it's playing without FFA PvP. You also can't compare Goldeneye with console RPGs, the latter have an end; MMOs are open-ended. If you want to challenge your friends Felucca is available.
A good example - you wanted challenge, you went to Felucca. That's the way it's supposed to work.
Consensual PvP is not like using cheats, it's like consensual PvP. When you played Goldeneye with your friends, your friends were willing. I guarantee you if you're playing Zelda and some random comes in and PKs you you wouldn't be happy.
I have no problem with people liking PvP - I like PvP sometimes. But many people don't go to an MMO to PvP. I personally don't see MMO PvP as very challenging, higher levels and better gear usually trumps skill. I think games like Counterstrike offer more of a real challenge that is based on player skill rather than non-combat things like levels or items.
My objection is to those, like Sempiternal, that seek to force PvP on everyone. That would never work, people that don't like it would just go to a different game.
Why would you need numbers if there's no one there? And, why would I want to farm? That's a leveler mentality, not a role player mentality. Even if I did, why would I go to a popular spot? UO is gigantic, even in the early days you could go days without seeing anyone if you left the main areas. If Felucca population is so low I'd imagine it's even easier.
That's certainly one appeal, usually one shared by younger males I think.
Others find different things appealing, like exploring or role playing. MMOs did start off as MMORPGs originally.
In MMOs fights are rarely fair or come down to skill, it usually comes down to levels or items. Calling someone low-skilled because they haven't spent any combat time and have low combat skils and no l337 gear is silly, especially if they don't go to an MMO for combat.
And this is wrong because? WoW I hear is pretty popular, they must be doing something right. I'm guessing it's because they have FFA PvP? Oh wait... they don't, do they?
You are obviously having a difficult time understanding your own quoted graph. Snap shot to 2001 (1 yr after pve expansion) there was a net gain of 50k, snapshot to 2003 (1 month after another PVE expansion) net gain of 70k. Who are you to say UO wont see another increase of 100k in the next year or so?
On top of all this, UO has had the best retention of any game on the market. Including your FFA PVP games, which have all about died out now. They have all died at about the same rate that Felluca has died out. See a trend?
I think this sentence pretty much sums up exactly why FFA PVP is unpopular, games with it die out quickly, why UO saved thier game after severly limiting it, and why Felluca is dead.
The real question you should be asking yourself is that if FFA PVP is so fun, then why is it that PVP'ers are only attacking people who are PVEing? FFA PVP is like a turkey shoot. Defenseless turkeys are fun to shoot when all the advantages are in your favor, when they are not even expecting it and cannot defend themselves. However give those turkeys guns to shoot back and all a sudden its not so fun anymore?
Its all about power. PVE'ers and Concentual PVPers have it. And punk kid griefers dont. I dont see this as a problem, nor does all the other game developers. I really think maybe those punk kids need to ask themselves why they cant have fun in a competitive atmosphere and can only entertain themselves killing things that dont fight back.